Has anybody else who's ever had to lose 40-60 lbs...ever found that one week you lose nothing, then all of a sudden right when you are getting frustrated you lose 5 lbs in a few days? Its really bizarre because my workout habits and eating have been pretty constant. The only difference is that I didn't do any drinking last weekend but I didn't imagine it would make THAT much difference.

Lot of wasted calories in alcoholic beverages. And, one's eating habits tend to deteriorate a bit when buzzed.

Beyond that, though, don't worry. I lost about 40 pounds a few years ago, primarily between lifestyle and diet change. Note, muscle mass weighs more per unit volume than flab, so if you're working out, you're working a bit at cross purposes for just losing wieght. I used to weigh myself daily, but made a point of not making changes based on single numbers. If your overall numbers, month to month, are going in the right direction, I wouldn't worry about daily or even weekly variations in rate of change. Keep your eye on the big picture and not on small incremental changes one way or the other.

Drinking makes an absolutely HUGE difference. Anything that puts excessive sugar into your body will wreak havoc on weight loss.

A 5.5% beer has about 150 calories per 12 oz serving. Think about that when you knock back 3 of them. (Or, if you're like me, and you drink 10% beers, when you knock back a 12 oz.)

Drinking does make a huge difference, also the time of day when you weigh yourself can as well. For me my weight would fluctuate as much as 5 lbs. depending on when I weighed myself. The morning is the "best" time, but as long as you are consistent as to what time of day you should be good. Other than that listen to Sutz, I lost almost 30 lbs. in a month and the majority of it was during the first, second, and fourth weeks. I actually gained a pound in the third week without any changes to my diet or exercise, but it evened out over the fourth.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-lo ... y-fat.html

Your body does weird things, a lot of which are water related. I know I can fluctuate ~4 a day based on water and what food is in my body, and that's not uncommon. True fat loss will be measured over the course of several weeks though, so don't let a 1 week difference tell you much one way or another.

Thanks everyone. I'm at 227 now...want to get to 200 by June and the commencement of summer. I started out at 285 back on November 10th.

Just being able to feel my abs and being able to actually do hard cardio again is so gratifying. Doing weights as well, and trying to either increase slightly each week what I'm lifting or maintain while losing weight.

I think it will take me getting to 185 to really have a 6 pack again - but for right now under 200 is my goal and will reassess once I reach that.

That's awesome Riggo. Dropping 58 pounds is no small feat, and you should be proud of the accomplishment. Hell, I felt like a champ for dropping 10 lbs recently. (Over the past 2.5 years, my weight went from 205 to 229. Down to 219 and trying to get back to the 205 mark.)

Sarlacc83 wrote:That's awesome Riggo. Dropping 58 pounds is no small feat, and you should be proud of the accomplishment. Hell, I felt like a champ for dropping 10 lbs recently. (Over the past 2.5 years, my weight went from 205 to 229. Down to 219 and trying to get back to the 205 mark.)

Thanks...and good job on you for putting on the brakes for weight gain earlier than I did. I'm 35 now and I am starting to realize that its easier to maintain good habits when fit versus trying to cut a large amount of weight.

Someone told me its 70% diet and 30% working out...and I'm really starting to believe that. It will become even more important as I age and having high intensity workouts becomes more difficult to do and recover from as quickly.

RiggoReincarnated wrote:Someone told me its 70% diet and 30% working out...and I'm really starting to believe that. It will become even more important as I age and having high intensity workouts becomes more difficult to do and recover from as quickly.

The way I look at it: You can weigh whatever you want based on diet alone, but working out with determine what you look like and how healthy you are.

And, if you are serious about strength training, I can't recommend Wendler's 5/3/1 program enough:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... e_strength

Follow the program (I've done Boring but Big for almost 6 months) and you will get stronger every week.

AbsolutNET wrote:

RiggoReincarnated wrote:Someone told me its 70% diet and 30% working out...and I'm really starting to believe that. It will become even more important as I age and having high intensity workouts becomes more difficult to do and recover from as quickly.

The way I look at it: You can weigh whatever you want based on diet alone, but working out with determine what you look like and how healthy you are.

And, if you are serious about strength training, I can't recommend Wendler's 5/3/1 program enough:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... e_strength

Follow the program (I've done Boring but Big for almost 6 months) and you will get stronger every week.

Nice thanks! I want to get down to a certain weight/body fat percentage, then really work at building some muscle properly thereafter.

I definitely want to challenge myself to accomplish a tough overall strength long-term goal when I start really working at building strength though...something like a one arm pullup or being able to bench 1.5 times my bodyweight. Then make a roadmap for how to train to get there.

I know for myself personally that when I don't set very specific goals...I tend to drift more towards the couch and one day away from the gym becomes 2, 2 becomes a week, a week a month...then things go downhill.

AbsolutNET wrote:

RiggoReincarnated wrote:Someone told me its 70% diet and 30% working out...and I'm really starting to believe that. It will become even more important as I age and having high intensity workouts becomes more difficult to do and recover from as quickly.

The way I look at it: You can weigh whatever you want based on diet alone, but working out with determine what you look like and how healthy you are.

And, if you are serious about strength training, I can't recommend Wendler's 5/3/1 program enough:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... e_strength

Follow the program (I've done Boring but Big for almost 6 months) and you will get stronger every week.

I would second this. I've been competitive in strength "sports" for many years and still use a modified version of a combination of 5x5 and 5/3/1 at least 6 months out of the year.

If you're REALLY serious about strength training, find a facility filled with guys stronger than you and start training with them.

RiggoReincarnated wrote:Nice thanks! I want to get down to a certain weight/body fat percentage, then really work at building some muscle properly thereafter.

I definitely want to challenge myself to accomplish a goal when I start really working at building strength though...something like a one arm pullup or being able to bench 1.5 times my bodyweight.

Remember that there is NOTHING more potent at burning fat than LEAN BODY MASS. My fitness instuctor wife is a perfect example of this. She, considering her profession, has always been in pretty good shape. Once she started adding resistance training (big compound movements such as squats/deadlifts/snatches) to her weekly routine, her level of ripped has gone through the roof. Mass is almost equal to before, but composition is COMPLETELY different.

I think you guys have it completely flipped. You can get the body you want with enough exercise and have horrible nutrition.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/22/sport ... -says.html

Russian Ice skater died at 28 from clogged arteries. There might have been some history in his family but I can almost guarantee that diet had more to do with it. You can be "thin" and even "fit" but if you have fatty buildups around your organs and inside your arteries you'll have heart disease by your 50th birthday.

Less meat, more veggies, less oils (even "heart healthy" oils).

Exercise is still a must if you want to really keep the body healthy but be very careful thinking that you're doing fine if you've reached the weight you want and you are in good shape.

Now before you lash out at me on this, I don't think we're at odds at all in fact I think we're basically on the same side. I agree that if you really restrict your diet (Fat free Vegan for example) you can weigh whatever you want on diet alone.

I'm just cautioning against the other extreme where guys think they are fit and in shape and therefore they are healthy.

Professional athletes shouldn't be included in these discussions. None of us have the time or resources to out-exercise poor nutrition.

When I said "healthy" I was referring to muscle mass, bone density, mobility, etc

P90X baby.. worked for me.. did it for 2 years, was in better shape than i was in highschool.. the plyometrics and strengthening/cardio excercises are hard but will git you in shape.. oh by the way.. P90X is pure hell in a box...getting ready to start it again, get in shape for summer.

one more thing.. drink a ton of water, you'll drop 10lbs doing that alone.. more you drink the less your body will store.. i drank close to a gallon a day, that's all i could stand, some drink more...

I was just referring to him as an extreme example. I know plenty of folks with a high metabolism who can get away with eating garbage and not look unhealthy.

Eat real food. If we stop supporting the industry that feeds us pigslop maybe it will go away.

Getting a bit off topic though. I've been doing a lot of research on nutrition and health in my own weight loss quest. I'm down from 255 to 220 making an eventual stop somewhere between 165 and 180.

Keep up the good fight Riggo.

hawker84 wrote:P90X baby.. worked for me.. did it for 2 years, was in better shape than i was in highschool.. the plyometrics and strengthening/cardio excercises are hard but will git you in shape.. oh by the way.. P90X is pure hell in a box...getting ready to start it again, get in shape for summer.

one more thing.. drink a ton of water, you'll drop 10lbs doing that alone.. more you drink the less your body will store.. i drank close to a gallon a day, that's all i could stand, some drink more...

I actually found it to be rather ...ahem... mild. Works up a good sweat to be sure though.

JesterHawk wrote:I was just referring to him as an extreme example. I know plenty of folks with a high metabolism who can get away with eating garbage and not look unhealthy.

Eat real food. If we stop supporting the industry that feeds us pigslop maybe it will go away.

Getting a bit off topic though. I've been doing a lot of research on nutrition and health in my own weight loss quest. I'm down from 255 to 220 making an eventual stop somewhere between 165 and 180.

Keep up the good fight Riggo.

I was ONLY commenting on strength training. I have no use for 'weight loss', which is such can of worms term to begin with.

Well, when I'm talking about weight loss, I'm talking about reduction in the general fatness of my person. I understand that muscle is heavier than fat. I have changed my diet, and not temporarily, to achieve true healthy weight loss.

Anguish wrote:

hawker84 wrote:P90X baby.. worked for me.. did it for 2 years, was in better shape than i was in highschool.. the plyometrics and strengthening/cardio excercises are hard but will git you in shape.. oh by the way.. P90X is pure hell in a box...getting ready to start it again, get in shape for summer.

one more thing.. drink a ton of water, you'll drop 10lbs doing that alone.. more you drink the less your body will store.. i drank close to a gallon a day, that's all i could stand, some drink more...

I actually found it to be rather ...ahem... mild. Works up a good sweat to be sure though.

you must be/stay in tremendous shape.. it kicked my tail for the first 3-4 months.

JesterHawk wrote:Well, when I'm talking about weight loss, I'm talking about reduction in the general fatness of my person. I understand that muscle is heavier than fat. I have changed my diet, and not temporarily, to achieve true healthy weight loss.

What I meant by can of worms term is that 'weight loss', to most people, equals what they see on a scale. 250lbs last week 240lbs this week. I have lost 10lbs. While technically true, it means close to nothing. Chances are, that person lost 8lbs of water from system shock and dehydration, .25lbs of actual fat, and 1.75lbs of muscle from malnutrition and the persons body going into starvation mode. Drag this out over a longer length of time, the dehydration lessens, but the others remain somewhat constant. Causing a longer term problem with the loss of actual lean body mass, which in turn lowers metabolic rate, etc, etc...

Anguish wrote:

JesterHawk wrote:Well, when I'm talking about weight loss, I'm talking about reduction in the general fatness of my person. I understand that muscle is heavier than fat. I have changed my diet, and not temporarily, to achieve true healthy weight loss.

What I meant by can of worms term is that 'weight loss', to most people, equals what they see on a scale. 250lbs last week 240lbs this week. I have lost 10lbs. While technically true, it means close to nothing. Chances are, that person lost 8lbs of water from system shock and dehydration, .25lbs of actual fat, and 1.75lbs of muscle from malnutrition and the persons body going into starvation mode. Drag this out over a longer length of time, the dehydration lessens, but the others remain somewhat constant. Causing a longer term problem with the loss of actual lean body mass, which in turn lowers metabolic rate, etc, etc...

Would you say that overtraining...for example burning 2000 cals a day through cardio while only eating 1200...can also cause this type of problem? I've been trying to burn 1000 cals a day in cardio, sometimes twice if I do cardio before and after work.

Btw someone brought in a load of donuts and left them in the faculty lounge at work...man that was tempting and ordinarily I would have scarfed 2-3 without even thinking...but I willed myself to walk away. lol

At my age almost everything I eat turns to blubber regardless of how much I work out. My largest downfall is craft beers. I love em and they are LOADED with empty calories.

RiggoReincarnated wrote:Would you say that overtraining...for example burning 2000 cals a day through cardio while only eating 1200...can also cause this type of problem? I've been trying to burn 1000 cals a day in cardio, sometimes twice if I do cardio before and after work.

Yes, that will cause serious problems. You're body will be going to your lean mass/muscle and stripping it down for energy (which is what calories are) if you are only eating 1200 calories a day. And if you're burning 2k a day through cardio alone, you need to put the other ~2500 you are probably burning anyway. So if you're short 3k calories, you're asking for trouble. Fat is stored energy that your body burns when you are in a caloric deficit - but so is muscle and if you are consuming too few calories (which 1200 is), then your body will strip your muscle for energy

Read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate

Personally, my body needs ~2100 calories a day just to support vital functions (my BMR). A day at work without the gym is going to add over 1k calories on top of that. Obviously several hundred more when I do hit the gym. You NEED to eat enough to allow your body to function properly. Try to find a calorie estimator online, and just subtract 10-20% of that for your daily goal. If you keep eating 1200 calories a day, you're going to wither and look & feel like hell.

I know there's some guys in this thread that really know their stuff, and I'm curious to get some opinions on this guy's plant based diet. Not looking to go vegan, oh hell no, but this guys seems to have some solid concepts and articulates them clearly and I'll take help from wherever I can get it.

http://thriveforward.com/

Here's an introductory video:


I came across this because I gave up sugar for 30 days a little over two weeks ago and I found it difficult to shake the cravings so I was googling around exploring different ideas.

Basically where I'm at is I lost 60 lbs from May to the beginning of December, and since I've only lost 5 lbs. I've got that last 20lbs of bodyfat I'm trying to get rid of and I'm definitely putting in the work in the gym. Clearly the problem is with my diet and it seems like I have issues with craving sweets, especially in the mid to late afternoon.

anyway, look forward to feedback and opinions.

Thanks

-s

I don't want to sign up for that site so I'm only going by the video. Obviously promoting eating plants and whole foods is a fundamental to good health, but I don't care for the "nutrients matter, not calories" angle. When you eat a plant based diet and are a distance runner, you're going to burn a shit-ton of calories so you don't have to worry about calories. And personally, I don't want to look like that guy. Vegetarians are no doubt healthy (if they do it right) but if you weight train and want a decent amount of lean mass, you're going to be missing out on some complete proteins by going truly vegan.

I know guys like Tony Gonzales claim to be vegan and are totally yoked, but he apparently supplements with soy protein and still eats some chicken and fish - and, I would imagine, a ton of grain and bean based carbs. But again, most of us don't exercise for a living and have access to what he does. I think it's decent advice to train and eat like the guy you want to look like.

I don't think giving up something is the answer - like the guy says in the video, if you completely restrict something or an entire group, you're probably going to struggle. Obviously sugar isn't something you want much of, but having a couple pieces of chocolate during the day or after dinner won't hurt. People seem to get tripped up with the "everything in moderation" mantra, because they think they can have a bunch of small servings of their vice food(s) every day. Long term trends are what count with weight loss, so you have to be able to sustain something sensible and effective.

sadhappy wrote:I know there's some guys in this thread that really know their stuff, and I'm curious to get some opinions on this guy's plant based diet. Not looking to go vegan, oh hell no, but this guys seems to have some solid concepts and articulates them clearly and I'll take help from wherever I can get it.

http://thriveforward.com/

Here's an introductory video:


I came across this because I gave up sugar for 30 days a little over two weeks ago and I found it difficult to shake the cravings so I was googling around exploring different ideas.

Basically where I'm at is I lost 60 lbs from May to the beginning of December, and since I've only lost 5 lbs. I've got that last 20lbs of bodyfat I'm trying to get rid of and I'm definitely putting in the work in the gym. Clearly the problem is with my diet and it seems like I have issues with craving sweets, especially in the mid to late afternoon.

anyway, look forward to feedback and opinions.

Thanks

-s

I've found that keeping some type of carb and protein constantly in my system helps me avoid the urge for sweets. Its when I'm feeling starved and blood sugar is low that chocolate seems flat out irresistable. One reason why I drink a protein BCAA supplement drink immediately after working out now.

As for fruits and veggies, they are important now because they have antioxidants and help flush out free radicals from your system after exercise.

I found earlier in my diet when I was just eating raw veggies and fruit at lunch, I felt like I couldn't work out as hard as I do when I have some pasta or rice with lunch.

Alcohol along with a high carb meal is very bad as well. Carbs are great, just have to make sure one is using them for energy and not eating an excess before going to sleep.

sadhappy wrote:I know there's some guys in this thread that really know their stuff, and I'm curious to get some opinions on this guy's plant based diet. Not looking to go vegan, oh hell no, but this guys seems to have some solid concepts and articulates them clearly and I'll take help from wherever I can get it.

http://thriveforward.com/

Here's an introductory video:


I came across this because I gave up sugar for 30 days a little over two weeks ago and I found it difficult to shake the cravings so I was googling around exploring different ideas.

Basically where I'm at is I lost 60 lbs from May to the beginning of December, and since I've only lost 5 lbs. I've got that last 20lbs of bodyfat I'm trying to get rid of and I'm definitely putting in the work in the gym. Clearly the problem is with my diet and it seems like I have issues with craving sweets, especially in the mid to late afternoon.

anyway, look forward to feedback and opinions.

Thanks

-s

Plant based diets and I don't get along, so I won't really have an opinion on the video. I will, however, reinforce the age old adages that "you are what you eat" (careful guys this isn't the shack ), and "abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym". Those last 20lbs are the hardest to get rid of, but they will come off over time if you're diligent.

I may disagree with this guy (and Jester) as to WHAT the primary foods of a diet are, but I certainly don't disagree with the premise that fit doesn't necessarily equal healthy. My 'fitness level' is more a by-product of my lifestyle than anything else, and I let it go at that. I'm healthy in the sense that I'm rarely ill, my body feels good for the most part, and my measurables are all within range. (Other than BMI since I'm a 235lb, 5'10" powerlifter)

My household (everyone in it) regularly spend 4 to 5 days per week in the gym training toward some goal. Mostly something competitive because we believe that there is an extra drive that you get by training for a competitive purpose. This could be anything from a big powerlifting meet or strongman competition for me, to a mud run or 10k for one of my daughters. We also all kind of follow the same type of diet, with individual tweaks, and individual weaknesses. Non of us are perfect, and all of us have one or two food nemeses.

Personally, I follow a mixture of intermittent fasting and carb backloading. So a typical non-training day would look like;

• Wake up at 5am having roughly 10 hours of fasting since 7pm, the previous nights dinner
• Continue fasting until 11am or so to get somewhere around 16 hours of fasting in
• 11am - Eat some form of protein (MEAT) and a green leafy salad
• 4pm - Syntrax whey isolate protein 32oz water / 52g Protein
• 7pm - Eat some form of protein (MEAT) and a green leafy salad

And then a typical training day would look the same, but I would eat ANYTHING (and I mean anything. Think doughnuts/ice cream/gooey pastries) that I have been craving post training session, and I would add another 32oz protein drink pre-workout and a 24oz BCAA drink intra-workout.

I don't drink alcohol, sodas, or any other sugary or super sweet drinks. (Again, this isn't ALWAYS. My wife and I share a popcorn and Mountain Dew at the movies.)

Six months ago, I would have agreed with you Anguish. After watching the documentary "Forks over Knives" and then backing up the claims in it by reading The China Study and multiple writings by nutritionists and doctors, I am sold on a whole-foods, plant-based diet (I don't use the word 'Vegan' unless I'm trying to order at a restaurant). I don't want to save the whales, and I'm not even against eating some chicken or fish now and then. I'm still planning a nice prime rib on my birthday.

There is an ever increasing amount of empirical and scientific data to back up the concept that animal based products are not good for your overall body health. I didn't 'give up' anything. I started increasing my intake of nutrient-dense badass superveggies (Kale is one of my favorites) and found that other foods didn't 'feel' right anymore. Your body will let you know how it feels about your dietery selections, you probably just haven't been paying attention (If your bowel movements could set a record at the NFL combine, you're doing it wrong). Over time, I just decided that an apple sounded better for breakfast than a doughnut because I didn't feel like shit after I ate the apple. I can still eat doughnuts, I just choose not to 99% of the time.

I'm going to give dairy it's own paragraph here because I think it's up there with sugar among the worst things you can put in your body and it gets pushed as a healthy food choice by the American media constantly. Just think about the purpose of cows milk for a minute. A baby cow is born and it drinks milk as it's sole source of nutrition so it can go from being a 60lb baby calf to a several hundred pound cow that can feed itself. When it's big enough to feed itself, the cow doesn't drink milk anymore. So unless you're planning on quintupling your bodyweight over the next year or two, dairy products should be extremely limited in your diet. Dairy also promotes the growth rate of cancer cells btw. If you're going to do it though, look for organic, grass fed dairy products.

This is getting stupid long, so I'm going to keep this part short. Organic is a must for most foods. GMO's are bad, duh? At the very least, google "The Dirty Dozen" for veggies and buy those organic (Potatos and Apples are consistently the top 2 but it changes every year). If you've ever seen a cow farm (a meat farm, not a dairy farm) it's gross as hell. They are packed in like sardines on a packed dirt (no grass) patch of land and they just dump corn mush on them to feed them. Chicken farms are nasty too. Get free range, air cooled chicken (if it isn't air cooled, it's been cooled in a big vat of water and chlorine).

We had a whole thread on sugar here a few months back. Google 'Sugar the bitter truth' for a sciency video about sugar. The guy in that video also has a book out, I forget the name at the moment, but it covers a lot more and tones down the science to a more layman level.

Absolut, totally get you on the 'moderation' line man. Moderation doesn't mean you can have a little bit every day it just means you can enjoy a treat once in awhile and if you're taking care of your body correctly, meaning your waste handling mechanisms aren't all jammed up from eating an American Diet, then your body can process that load just fine (pun intended).

TL;DR Go organic, don't eat dairy, limit meat intake, sugar is bad.

P.S. I can't speak for powerlifting because I don't think that's a natural function of the body, but there are several Vegan/Vegitarian MMA Fighters that don't seem to have trouble getting enough of what they need from a plant-based diet. Link

This is really good stuff guys.

I'm working off the assumption I have cravings in the afternoon even after quitting sugar because my diet is deficient in something. I don't think it's lack of calories. I use a service called training peaks and log all my workouts and everything I eat so I'm not rationalizing or doing anything crazy/unsound. I even use a withings wifi scale that takes my weight and bodyfat% and automatically uploads it to training peaks.

I'm trying to operate at -1kcal/day 6 days a week to produce just shy of 2lbs of bodyfat loss a week. as I've lost weight my BMR has of course been dropping, and I don't burn as many calories from working out since I'm in much better shape now (my lactate threshold is 163 beats per minute which is damn good for a 42 year old man who was an obese smoker less than a year ago). I've been doing the work, logging the data, everything that was working for me up until December but I have less wiggle room to work with calorie-wise and these late day cravings keep sabotaging me.

I've always thought I had a glucose sensitivity since I have a really bad sweet tooth hence the reason for the sugar quit. I can tell you I fall asleep more easily and sleep better since I kicked the sugar to the curb, but the hunger pangs late in the day have not gone away and so there's still a mystery here.

I'm not kicking my whey powder and my meat to the curb. Hell no. But I'm open to getting away from prepackaged foods and moving more towards eating whole and unprocessed foods. This sugar quit has really opened my eyes to just how pervasive it is, it's in frigging everything! Try to buy one bag of groceries at the store that has no refined sugar or high fructose corn syrup in it and you'll quickly discover what I mean.

If you're just into the whey protein for the protein, get yourself a real blender (Vitamix) and make your own 'shakes' (green smoothies).

I have a blendtec and make smoothies whenever it's practical. The whey shake is the post workout recovery drink, not dragging my blendtec to the gym! Lots and lots of research showing that whey protein taken within 20 minutes of a workout produces the best bang for the workout. the longer you wait to take in the recovery drink the less good it does you.

Well, I think hairs are being split over "plant-based." Meaning it isn't meat based but that isn't the same as being vegan. This is right from the article:

"Training for his fights now, Fitch has adopted a new fighter diet along with a few other UFC guys. The new MMA diet has gone vegetarian. They haven’t done vegan, as fish, eggs, and whey protein are still part of their competition and training diet."

A lot of china study, vegan rhetoric is anti-protein. Obviously this isn't the case here. Start with whole foods, eat the right amount of protein, carbs and fats for your goals and don't be stupid with processed foods is pretty much how I go about it. I guess I've just gone through enough rounds with people who think protein is the devil that I'm a bit jaded by the subject.

And stop being scared to learn how to weight train and making excuses about it not being natural

There's certainly a lot of things that are not food in our food nowadays.

Jester, check your pm's

sadhappy wrote:I have a blendtec and make smoothies whenever it's practical. The whey shake is the post workout recovery drink, not dragging my blendtec to the gym! Lots and lots of research showing that whey protein taken within 20 minutes of a workout produces the best bang for the workout. the longer you wait to take in the recovery drink the less good it does you.

Not as much as the supp companies lead you on. theres a lot of recent info about the "post exercise window" being debunked. If you're eating properly throughout the day, then you're fine. I stopped taking whey after a workout a long time ago and havent noticed any difference at all. I go home and have dinner, which is probably the most anti-catabolic thing you can do.

AbsolutNET wrote:

sadhappy wrote:I have a blendtec and make smoothies whenever it's practical. The whey shake is the post workout recovery drink, not dragging my blendtec to the gym! Lots and lots of research showing that whey protein taken within 20 minutes of a workout produces the best bang for the workout. the longer you wait to take in the recovery drink the less good it does you.

Not as much as the supp companies lead you on. theres a lot of recent info about the "post exercise window" being debunked. If you're eating properly throughout the day, then you're fine. I stopped taking whey after a workout a long time ago and havent noticed any difference at all. I go home and have dinner, which is probably the most anti-catabolic thing you can do.

Well that's interesting. This crap is so confusing!

Well, the idea is to make it not confusing by being consistent with meeting your goals each day. You can essentially disregard nutrient timing since you aren't a professional athlete/Olympian. Just hit your goals for protein/fat/carbs every day with good food and you're fine. Theres pros & cons for everything as far as when to eat, fasted training, etc. But at the end of the day, if you ate when you were hungry and when it was convenient, ate decent food and hit your goals, you can't come up with a con for that.

AbsolutNET wrote:Well, I think hairs are being split over "plant-based." Meaning it isn't meat based but that isn't the same as being vegan. This is right from the article:

"Training for his fights now, Fitch has adopted a new fighter diet along with a few other UFC guys. The new MMA diet has gone vegetarian. They haven’t done vegan, as fish, eggs, and whey protein are still part of their competition and training diet."

A lot of china study, vegan rhetoric is anti-protein. Obviously this isn't the case here. Start with whole foods, eat the right amount of protein, carbs and fats for your goals and don't be stupid with processed foods is pretty much how I go about it. I guess I've just gone through enough rounds with people who think protein is the devil that I'm a bit jaded by the subject.

And stop being scared to learn how to weight train and making excuses about it not being natural

Who's anti-protein?
http://www.3fatchicks.com/top-8-vegetab ... n-protein/

I generally don't recommend playing with soy proteins lightly, some soy stuff is pretty bad for you too, but it is pretty protein dense. I haven't done a lot of research here since my wife is allergic to soy anyway, we just kind of skipped it all together. But it's there if you want it, just do some research first.

I'm not debating at all that protein isn't part of a healthy diet, clearly it is essential to have protein. You can get it without the meat though. I didn't work too hard for that link, I know there is at least one UFC guy who is vegan and you can find plenty of athletes who eat a vegan diet.

I don't think we're very far apart, and I don't think either of us is intent on making changes, but I wanted to add those bits to the discussion.

Oh, and I'm not afraid to weight train, I think I misread weight training as bodybuilding, which when taken to the extreme doesn't reflect anything that the average person needs. Maybe it isn't possible to get the protein you need to be Mr. Universe from plants but that doesn't concern me.

BTW, how much vitamin K is in your chicken?

I meant other people that use the China study and veganism as the construct for ideal health I've "debated" with have been oddly anti-protein, I didn't mean you.

Powerlifting and bodybuilding are different things. The last thing my body is capable of is a defined muscle, so I just lift to get stronger and because I can't run.

But more interestingly, you found a girl to marry you? Good god man, how much chloroform did that take?

My real life persona is much more accommodating to members of the opposite sex. I'm just a nerd / nice guy who likes to rage on Seahawks message boards. Incredibly blessed with an amazing wife, we just celebrated 10 years in July.

P.S. About 12 pints.

I just wanna get rid of this one ab slab, and it's turned out to be a lot harder than losing 60 frigging lbs in 6 months. Well if it forces me to get my diet and nutrition pimped out I'm cool with it.

I'm reading this thread, and all I can think is: I want some pizza.

Seriously, though, I really wish beer wasn't my main hobby, because I'm 100% sure I'd drop about 20 lbs if I just stopped drinking all together. So there's your warning, kids. Don't become a wine/beer/bourbon snob. It will get you in the end.

Sarlacc83 wrote:I'm reading this thread, and all I can think is: I want some pizza.

Seriously, though, I really wish beer wasn't my main hobby, because I'm 100% sure I'd drop about 20 lbs if I just stopped drinking all together. So there's your warning, kids. Don't become a wine/beer/bourbon snob. It will get you in the end.

I like to think that I've mastered the art of drinking and have moved on to bigger and better things.

I keep on reading the title and seeing "squirts"

Before the thread goes too far down the road of the typical .net snarkfest, I want to consolidate the things that caught me eye out of the discussion.

AbsolutNET wrote:Obviously promoting eating plants and whole foods is a fundamental to good health

I don't think giving up something is the answer - like the guy says in the video, if you completely restrict something or an entire group, you're probably going to struggle. Obviously sugar isn't something you want much of, but having a couple pieces of chocolate during the day or after dinner won't hurt.

Yea his crowding concept makes a world of sense to me. Taking a positive posture towards change rather than feeling like you're denying yourself something and the change is more likely to stick and you're gonna feel better about it.

Regarding sugar, I looked it up and the USDA recommended daily intake for A 2kcal/day diet is 32 grams. a single can of coca cola has 39 grams of sugar. Ketchup is over 20% sugar by weight. It's all pervasive and the daily recommendations are very easily exceeded just in the food most people eat on a daily basis that they don't think of as 'sweet'.

Not only that, what's with all the stuff in food that ends in 'ose'? It's stuff that's been dicked with at a molecular level so it's not officially 'sugar', when in reality it's one or two molecules away and confuses the the body because there's no payoff associated with the 'sweet' flavor, so the body keeps craving and chasing something that isn't there. That's why people don't lose weight from diet soda I rekcon, just makes people hungry.

Anguish wrote:"abs are made in the kitchen, not the gym". Those last 20lbs are the hardest to get rid of, but they will come off over time if you're diligent.

My household (everyone in it) regularly spend 4 to 5 days per week in the gym training toward some goal. Mostly something competitive because we believe that there is an extra drive that you get by training for a competitive purpose.

There's certainly a lot of things that are not food in our food nowadays.

You're like the tom cable of nutrition. I love simple sayings that are easy to remember and keep top of mind. I really like the idea of having a goal to work towards, gives one focus. I'm focusing on a surf trip to Indonesia this summer, which would have been an impossibility just a few months ago.

Jesterhawk wrote:Absolut, totally get you on the 'moderation' line man. Moderation doesn't mean you can have a little bit every day it just means you can enjoy a treat once in awhile and if you're taking care of your body correctly, meaning your waste handling mechanisms aren't all jammed up from eating an American Diet, then your body can process that load just fine (pun intended).

TL;DR Go organic, don't eat dairy, limit meat intake, sugar is bad.

It really seems like you and absolut are 90% on the same page. I'm totally on board with eating whole foods, adding a LOT more plant based matter, and getting away from processed stuff as much as practical. it might not be Convenient, but I am on board with the idea that a properly nourished and exercised body will be healthy all on it's own, no need to 'diet' or feel like your going hungry. I think I've been shoveling all this junk in my mouth for so long my brain no longer knows how to interpret and differentiate various types of impulses; what they mean, beyond hungry and thirsty. I'm hopeful that with a clean diet my brain can learn how to interpret what it's being told and the impulses that pop into my head become more specific and accurate.

sadhappy wrote:

Jesterhawk wrote:Absolut, totally get you on the 'moderation' line man. Moderation doesn't mean you can have a little bit every day it just means you can enjoy a treat once in awhile and if you're taking care of your body correctly, meaning your waste handling mechanisms aren't all jammed up from eating an American Diet, then your body can process that load just fine (pun intended).

TL;DR Go organic, don't eat dairy, limit meat intake, sugar is bad.

It really seems like you and absolut are 90% on the same page. I'm totally on board with eating whole foods, adding a LOT more plant based matter, and getting away from processed stuff as much as practical. it might not be Convenient, but I am on board with the idea that a properly nourished and exercised body will be healthy all on it's own, no need to 'diet' or feel like your going hungry. I think I've been shoveling all this junk in my mouth for so long my brain no longer knows how to interpret and differentiate various types of impulses; what they mean, beyond hungry and thirsty. I'm hopeful that with a clean diet my brain can learn how to interpret what it's being told and the impulses that pop into my head become more specific and accurate.

One of things I really enjoy about living in the Pacific Northwest is that it's very easy to eat seasonal vegetables which makes a world of difference where it concerns flavor. Also, there's so much organic food out here, and it's only a couple dollars more expensive than the 'mass produced' stuff (I know that organic food can be produced in large quantities) so with some good budgeting it's easier to get there. Growing up in Wisconsin, I was always under the impression life was out of a can or out of a casserole, and because of it, I wound up being a very picky eater. Now I'm able to enjoy most anything. (Except raw red onions and raw tomatoes).

Regarding sugar: I haven't gotten super deep into sugar but it's my next area of focus researchwise. Obviously processed sugar is bad and really all sugar acts the same (in a vacuum) inside the body. There is some research supporting sugar combined with fiber being more "ok". Meaning, if you eat a whole apple WITH the skin you're consuming less "bad sugar" than if you had peeled the apple. Obviously this doesn't just apply to apples and I'm not sure if you can just "add fiber" through other foods or if it has to be the fiber of THAT food (Ie the apple skin).

But I think, in general, you're rolling the right way Sad. Processed food should be eliminated if possible, nobody who manufactures processed food for a living is thinking about the end result of the people eating the food. That is a harsh reality. They don't care about anything but profits. If you just buy organic, whole foods and process them yourself it makes a huge difference. Partly because you're not using chemicals and other additives to process things in huge batches and partly because you get more nutrition from foods by eating them more quickly following the processing of them.

Thx jester. This conversation was very helpful for me.

Sarlacc83 wrote:

sadhappy wrote:

Jesterhawk wrote:Absolut, totally get you on the 'moderation' line man. Moderation doesn't mean you can have a little bit every day it just means you can enjoy a treat once in awhile and if you're taking care of your body correctly, meaning your waste handling mechanisms aren't all jammed up from eating an American Diet, then your body can process that load just fine (pun intended).

TL;DR Go organic, don't eat dairy, limit meat intake, sugar is bad.

It really seems like you and absolut are 90% on the same page. I'm totally on board with eating whole foods, adding a LOT more plant based matter, and getting away from processed stuff as much as practical. it might not be Convenient, but I am on board with the idea that a properly nourished and exercised body will be healthy all on it's own, no need to 'diet' or feel like your going hungry. I think I've been shoveling all this junk in my mouth for so long my brain no longer knows how to interpret and differentiate various types of impulses; what they mean, beyond hungry and thirsty. I'm hopeful that with a clean diet my brain can learn how to interpret what it's being told and the impulses that pop into my head become more specific and accurate.

One of things I really enjoy about living in the Pacific Northwest is that it's very easy to eat seasonal vegetables which makes a world of difference where it concerns flavor. Also, there's so much organic food out here, and it's only a couple dollars more expensive than the 'mass produced' stuff (I know that organic food can be produced in large quantities) so with some good budgeting it's easier to get there. Growing up in Wisconsin, I was always under the impression life was out of a can or out of a casserole, and because of it, I wound up being a very picky eater. Now I'm able to enjoy most anything. (Except raw red onions and raw tomatoes).

Yea we got farmer's markets all over in Florida and lots of roadside fruit and vegetable stands. Can get great deals, way cheaper than the grocery store if you're a savvy shopper. And fresh picked tastes a lot better no question.

I just need to make that kind of shopping a regular staple instead of the occasional lark.

Any suggestions on how to really tone the midsection? I'm at a size 38 now...started around a 42/44. Want to get to around the 32-34 range.

It seems like the gut has been the most stubborn area to really cut out fat and tone.