Johnny Manziel = Tebow 2.0, with issues

SharkHawk

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I have read all of your comparos and such, and I find them interesting. If you want to go from a maturity/mental standpoint, he's no Ryan Leaf. I don't see him as a Tommie Frazier either, because Frazier was the calmest man I've ever seen play the game. As far as skillset, he does run like Tommie though. Personality wise, they are much different. But Frazier may have been the best college QB to ever play the game (when you're going off of wins and leadership... Frazier is WAY up there... if you didn't see him play, then don't go looking at his stats and knocking me for that statement... Frazier was GREAT regardless of "combine" type of stats, arm strength, and so on).

Charlie Ward is a guy that is very similar to Manziel in his skill set and athleticism. Charlie would have gotten a good shot in today's NFL and it was always funny to me when he was playing for the Knicks and referred to weekly as the best QB in New York (which was likely true considering who was starting for the Giants and Jets). Ward was an amazing talent, an amazing leader, and to me was what Russell Wilson was in college. A consumate leader, a workout warrior, a gym rat, a winner that did everything it took at all times and one of the finest athletes to ever play the sport.

But on the side of Manziel that people are kind of picking at... he doesn't remind me of Tebow (he does in his ability to gain yards with his feet, but does it in an entirely different fashion, he finds lanes and busts through them, much like our own Russell Wilson, or like Charlie used to do).

If I had to pick one guy that he just REMINDS me of in his demeanor, personality, and general attitude toward others and things in general, it would have to be Cade McNown. Not sure how many of you remember him and his exploits at UCLA, but they are eerily similar. A young kid that came in and just basically told everybody what the score was all the time, hung out at the playboy mansion, talked a LOT, threw a nice ball, moved around well, had kind of an elitist attitude (and why not? He was a GREAT college QB). He was smallish though and a lot of his game didn't translate very well, and a big part of that was his work ethic, which wasn't that great as he got by on talent. I think Manziel has a work ethic, but in a lot of ways he's having sort of a McNown-ish run with the media and fans this offseason after really coming in and blowing the doors off of everybody last year.

Do I think Manziel can play in the NFL? For sure. I have no doubt. Do I think he needs to work on some things to become his very best? YES. Absolutely. Could he become the next Russ Wilson? That's entirely up to one person, and that's Johnny. He can be as good as he wants to be, and it was obvious before last season that he wanted to put in the work to be great. But is he satisfied with where he ended up and will just sort of ride out his college career now? I saw a kid do that. David Greene. We saw how that worked out. He just never improved as a college player, when he really showed a lot of "moxie" or whatever you want to call it early in his college career, but just never made the strides and leaps and bounds.

Everybody loves to use the Tom Brady comparison, and they just as much love to use the Alex Smith comparisons when talking about QB's. Honestly... Johnny Manziel could become either guy. He had a year last year that was eeril similar to Smith's junior year at Utah. He surprised the national media (not the locals though) and he steamrolled everybody, all the way through a BCS game. He ran a similar offense and was dominant. But he was so much more mature in how he handled everything, and was about the same age as Manziel is now at that point. Smith graduated from college in a ridiculously short amount of time (like in the 18 months range according to some people I know well... he was so far ahead he could have graduated within a year of stepping foot on campus if he wanted to). Manziel however doesn't even want to step foot on campus, because to him it seems like a bother. He's just using college as the minor leagues, and that's fine. More power to him. Cam Newton did it and it worked out ok for him. Smith and Robert Griffin handled things a lot differently. And Brady was the anti-McNown/Greene because he improved every year, totally immersed himself in learning and improving at college and now is the chance where Manziel has an opportunity to step out of the shadow of every single guy I mentioned (and I realize it was WAY too many, but I've seen a lot of guys play and picked out different parts of their game and overall makeup to try to figure out which way another guy will go). Manziel can rewrite the record books. He can break every one of Tebow's records. He can be as great of a passer as Colt McCoy was in college (and like what he's done as a pro or not, McCoy was an absolutely legendary college QB and always will be). He could become like Troy Aikman in his ability to just win (Aikman was thought of as a prima donna and a "too good for his teammates, media, and everybody else" as well... and anybody who remembers the mess with him and Oklahoma and UCLA knows what I'm talking about).

The future hasn't been written yet. If it were at this point in somebody's life, Cade McNown would be wrapping up a hall of fame career, David Greene would have been a solid NFL QB who won more than he lost, Tommie Frazier would have been the first QB to run a spread successfully in the NFL and ushered its use into the NFL 20 years earlier than it was, Charlie Ward would have been starting for the Jets and they might have actually won, Tom Brady would have been a practice squad player and bounce around the NFL as a journeyman backup like Josh McCown, Alex Smith would have dominated the NFL and won a few Superbowls by now, and Troy Aikman would have been seen as a malcontent and Jeff George'd himself out of the league being known as a pompous ass.

It will certainly be interesting to watch. If I had to bet? I'd say that Manziel will put in the work to be the best he can possibly be and will get a chance to start for an NFL team and they'll see if he can handle it. Teams NEED to do this at this point because of how much salary QB's are making. So he'll get his shot. Reading this mish-mash I wrote though I find it really a drag that Charlie Ward never gave it a go (or was told he'd never really get a chance) and that Tommie Frazier had the blood clot issues that ended his career before anybody even saw if a QB with his skillset had a place in the NFL in those days (He would now... those days, not really). But it sure would have been nice to at least find out. I hated Nebraska, but Tommie Frazier put on a clinic every week of what it took to lead a team to greatness. There's a lot of Tommie in Russell Wilson and that's why I'm damn glad he's on our team. :)
 

CPHawk

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Well he did beat up a guy last summer, maybe mentally he is the next Ryan Leaf.
 

SharkHawk

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Ryan Leaf never beat anybody up. The guy was a sissy. He had less muscle definition than most of us on this board. Leaf was a drug addict. It became very apparent as he became a terrible flake and then spent the remainder of his life trying to be put in positions where he had access to drugs. He stole them from his players when he was a coach. That wasn't a "first time mixup". This is somebody who has had a problem for a long long time. He claimed it was because of the hand injury. That hand injury happened while he was in San Diego.

I remember when he signed with the Hawks and he had a hole in his hand where the bones were shattered and the ligaments just sort of blew up. I've torn that same area up playing baseball (about 1/100 as bad as his injury was) and I can say the pain is absolutely excruciating. My bones that meet up at the wrist and end of forearm are still pointing up funny and the wrist still hurts fifteen years after tearing all of the cartilage and snapping the end of the bone off on a swing. So I can understand a bit of how much pain he was in. Then the doctors goofed it when trying to fix it. Massive intractable pain can fry a person's brain. They just lose it completely. I've been there. Luckily I haven't turned into an addict, but I know that the pain makes me act like a complete jerk.

I think Leaf's issues were much deeper than Johnny Manziel's obvious "big man on campus with little man syndrome".
 

kearly

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I think Johnny Manziel is much more like Fran Tarkenton than Russell Wilson is. First, Tarkenton was competitive to a fault and was well known for being impatient or rude to people. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton was a reckless scrambler who often played out of control. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton had a mildly unconventional delivery and was not afraid to "Favre" it when he didn't have the time or luxury to set his feet, but unlike most QBs, those passes actually worked. Checkbox, Manziel.

In the current NFL, Wilson comes the closest to Tarkenton so that's why I've said that if you want the next Wilson, draft Manziel. But I think if we are talking all QBs all time- Tarkenton pretty much nails it.
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.
 

pehawk

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He strikes me as a more dynamic, athletic and instinctual Doug Flutie. We'll never know what Flutie couldve been.

Farrar nails JM's tao understanding of open space.
 

DTexHawk

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theENGLISHseahawk":1roy9qcz said:
Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.


I would expect JM to become "smarter" with taking chances as he matures.

Are you comparing JM to Wilson as a pro, or when he was at NC in '08-'09?
 

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Manziel was on the NIke campus today in Beaverton as a coach at the Elite 11/The Opening camp. One of the "in the know" guys at my Ducks board had this to say about him:

To start, there's a sh!t load of talent on that field. Before I get into the HS QB's, I gotta tell you about the college players coachng. First off, Johnny Football looks like a walk on FB, I shit you not. I was blown away when I figured out who he was. I honestly thought," Man, that FB looking guy can spin it. Who in the hell is that?". He looks much bigger on TV..... Seriously though, you wouldn't believe how short Manziel is.
 

kearly

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He looks 5'11" and change on TV to me. Skinny too. Wouldn't be surprised if he added some serious muscle this offseason though. He needs it.

Gonna be really fun to see where he gets drafted.
 

JSeahawks

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He probably owes Russell Wilson a fruit basket or a thank you card for showing that short Qb's can have success in the league (although Bree's already proved that, imo).
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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DTexHawk":3cik7mjg said:
I would expect JM to become "smarter" with taking chances as he matures.

Are you comparing JM to Wilson as a pro, or when he was at NC in '08-'09?

Wilson in college.

In 2008 Russell Wilson as a first year starter threw one interception compared to 21 total touchdowns. The highest number of turnovers he had was 2010 when he had 14 to go with 37 total touchdowns... and that was a very inconsistent and frustrating NC State outfit that year. When placed in a strong contender, he reverted back to only four picks and 39 touchdowns.

Throughout his career he showed the ability to make strong decisions and limit turnovers. It seems to me to be a natural thing with him - almost certainly down to the legendary work ethic and preparation we've come to know since he arrived in Seattle. And it's something Manziel doesn't flash to the same extent. That's not to say he can't continue to develop in that area or dedicate himself to Wilson's extent, but then you probably take away a significant part of his game. He is by nature a chancer. The lack of control on his ability to improvise makes him a better player. I think him not knowing what he's going to do sometimes makes him difficult to plan against. He doesn't have amazing arm talent and he's not a difference maker as a pure pocket passer. It's his ability to move around, extend plays and break off the improbable that makes him very effective IMO. The big question for me is whether that translates. Is he 'that' good at it to break conventions in the NFL in the same way Wilson did with his height. I'm not sure he is.

If I needed a QB next year and it was a toss up between Bridgewater and Manziel, I would take Bridgewater every time.
 

justafan

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Seems like peoples opinion on this board is Wilson somehow opened the door for short QBs in the NFL.IMO the fact still stands,height matters.What Wilson,Brees or Flutie accomplished is even more amazing because they overcame those obstacles.
What Wilson is doing only proves Wilson can do it at 5 10.Wilson is 1 of a kind.
 

CPHawk

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Wakeup call? He keeps doing the same stuff over and over. Like I said before, if he was a safety or LB or some other position player doing this crap, I would still draft him without a doubt. But being the leader of your team, it's a gamble at this point.
 
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ImTheScientist

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Report: Manziel sent home from Manning camp

Texas A&M redshirt sophomore QB Johnny Manziel was sent home from the Manning Passing Academy, according to Yard Barker.
The report states Archie Manning sent Manziel home for a number of reasons. The Aggie quarterback apparently showed up late on Saturday after spending "a night on the town" on Friday. "Camp officials told local media that Manziel 'is sick' and was no longer at the camp," the report states. "But our source claims he was kicked out." The site updated their original post, adding Manziel missed multiple meetings on Saturday morning without informing anyone of his absence. "Most people at the camp assume he simply slept through them."

Sounds like a winner. Im interested to see how the Manziel lovers spin this. :0190l: :34853_doh: :thirishdrinkers:
 
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ImTheScientist

ImTheScientist

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kearly":35oba1gu said:
I think Johnny Manziel is much more like Fran Tarkenton than Russell Wilson is. First, Tarkenton was competitive to a fault and was well known for being impatient or rude to people. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton was a reckless scrambler who often played out of control. Checkbox, Manziel. Tarkenton had a mildly unconventional delivery and was not afraid to "Favre" it when he didn't have the time or luxury to set his feet, but unlike most QBs, those passes actually worked. Checkbox, Manziel.

In the current NFL, Wilson comes the closest to Tarkenton so that's why I've said that if you want the next Wilson, draft Manziel. But I think if we are talking all QBs all time- Tarkenton pretty much nails it.

:thirishdrinkers: :sarcasm_off: but wanted to quote it for the future.

theENGLISHseahawk":35oba1gu said:
Watched Texas A&M vs LSU from last year today.

Really don't like seeing him changing hands, throwing left handed straight to a wide open cornerback who drops the ball. That was an error-strewn game. Not all bad because he made a few plays. But the guy takes so many chances. If we're making any comparison to Wilson -- I think that's where they are a million miles apart. Wilson's chances seem so much more calculated... he minimises risk and plays the percentages while still maintaining an explosive playmaking quality. Manziel looks like a chancer. He also hasn't got the arm talent Wilson has. I don't know. I'm completely unconvinced he's going to go as early as some people think. He's without doubt the player I'll look forward to watching the most in college football this year... he's box office viewing. But I'm not sure I'd be drafting him anywhere near round one for my football team. Teddy Bridgewater is on a different level for me.

:13:
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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CPHawk":19615j4f said:
Wakeup call? He keeps doing the same stuff over and over. Like I said before, if he was a safety or LB or some other position player doing this crap, I would still draft him without a doubt. But being the leader of your team, it's a gamble at this point.

D-Tex is the resident A&M fan. And unfortunately just like that guy who liked Notre Dame and the other guy who liked Texas, will always put a positive slant on a piece of possible news like this.

Although I think, "at least it wasn't a DUI" suggests some kind of league table for 'bad things'. Maybe if he ever gets a DUI we can be reassured he didn't go on a Grand Theft Auto style rampage, or that he didn't instigate a nuclear war.

Rest assured NFL teams will know exactly why he left that camp by next year, for better or worse.
 

Sarlacc83

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It interests me that despite Manziel's removal from the Manning training camp, then NFL Network continues to show him throwing and working with the kids. However, I also noticed that the host asked Mike Mayock about him, and Mayock mentioned how he had no idea where Manziel was for a few days.

Also, I think after this year, now that the Heisman has also put this kid in the limelight, and thus under more intense scrutiny, he's going to see his stock drop - possibly precipitously. If that's the case, I can see him staying at A&M for another year after this one to rebuild his image. If he puts 2 and 2 together.
 

DTexHawk

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My point with the wakeup call was that teenagers, particularly those who have received "favored" treatment while growing up, don't listen to authority. Whether it is their hs teachers, coaches, local sheriff, etc...

Maybe with this action by the Mannings (who carry a little more weight as far as the next level) will get Manziel to grow up and start focusing on what it takes to get to the next level.

As to this:

"will always put a positive slant on a piece of possible news like this."

when you posted it, it was still just a rumor by a internet blog, which is why it was "a piece of possible news".
 

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