Irvin to OLBer

Seafan

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This is all over the video media today thanks to a blurb in the News Tribune. It's news to everyone but Seahawk fans who have heard about it for months. It must be July. You can only say so much about Aaron Hernandez which will finally disappear from the TV when TCs open around the NFL in a couple weeks.
 

Fuzzman55

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The Seahawks aren't exactly inventing the wheel with this move either. The Giants did it with Mathias Kiwanuka, as just one example. Moving a DE to LB is all about scheme fit and getting your best players on the field. My opinion part of this is that I'd definitely rather maximize Irvin's reps than Malcom Smith's, who's been very good in the fill-in role. There is nothing wrong having that DD Lewis, sometimes starter on your team.
 

seahawkfreak

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hawker84":1sotbqw3 said:
I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?

why is everyone saying he's to small? Him and Chris Clemons are the same height and Clemons weighs 7 lbs more than Irvin.
 

Tical21

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I've been trying all day to visualize and come to terms with this and make sense of it. Just doesn't pass the smell test to me. If you think he is progressing at all at DE, I can't see why you would consider making this move. I'm thinking Quinn doesn't believe in him at DE. He was already a project, now he's even more of one, and at a position he has never played before. I know I'm usually not the most optimistic fella around here, but even if I try to wear that hat I can't see him playing much and being productive. Even if you put him in on passing downs, the opposing team knows he is coming. I have all the trust in the world in our staff, but I don't see how you could spin this as anything other than the staff didn't believe he could be a productive DE and though it was time to try something else.
 

vin.couve12

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CALIHAWK1":39pzm4ls said:
I don't buy the part about him not being big enough to play line full time. I think that was obviouly opinion but mixed in so it may be construed as something Carroll may have hinted at.
Winner
 

vin.couve12

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I like the idea of having Irvin learn some OLB duties and eventually he can possibly become a 3 down player. However, I don't think Smith will actually be anywhere near a starter on the strong side and Toomer makes his elite athleticism a good part of the mixture and earns a starting role at least for the 1st 4 games, in which case, Irvin will likely have spot duty on 1st and 2nd down initially so Toomer probably starts a lot.
 

amill87

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Something I think we need to keep an eye on is Wright just as good a WILL as he is a SAM?

Like Kearly mentioned, Wright is pretty damn good at what he does. I don't see the advantage of taking Wright out of a position he excels at, put him in another that he may not be as good at and than replacing Wright at his original position with a question mark project.

Irvin has some pretty big holes as a player. He has some raw talent but at LB, he would need to vastly improve on his fundamentals of the game. And for those saying it's no big deal, he will just rush the passer, while we use 3-4 looks, we are still a 4-3. Which means if Irvin is rushing from the LB spot, we are essentially sending 5 guys and you can only do that so often.
 

vin.couve12

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amill87":3pqzag3t said:
Something I think we need to keep an eye on is Wright just as good a WILL as he is a SAM?

Like Kearly mentioned, Wright is pretty damn good at what he does. I don't see the advantage of taking Wright out of a position he excels at, put him in another that he may not be as good at and than replacing Wright at his original position with a question mark project.

Irvin has some pretty big holes as a player. He has some raw talent but at LB, he would need to vastly improve on his fundamentals of the game. And for those saying it's no big deal, he will just rush the passer, while we use 3-4 looks, we are still a 4-3. Which means if Irvin is rushing from the LB spot, we are essentially sending 5 guys and you can only do that so often.

I do agree about sending 5 too often. Wright is just a LB through and through. Stepped in at MLB in 2011 and no one saw him make a single bad play. Don't worry about Wright. Besides, having him next to his buddy Wagner, whom he communicates with very well in game, is only good for continuity from left to right.

Again though, I'd like to send 5 a little bit more than Gus did, but sending 5 too often puts your coverages at a disadvantage. A good DC has to know when he's facing a smart, vet QB. One of those will just figure out where the blitz is coming from and throw over top to the vacated area and kill that. It has to be done right. Certainly not too much.

One of the reasons I really like the prospect of Toomer being an actual SLB more in the mold of a Wright type, but much, much, much better athlete. 1st and 2nd down would be less of a concern and Toomer has put his hand on the ground quite a bit too with all of the other positions he chipped in at.
 

themunn

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The thing about sending "5 guys too often" though is that the teams that usually do so are the ones that have little to no secondary quality, so you do it too much and eventually you'll be picked apart.
When you have 5 pro-bowl DBs though, you can afford to pressure more, your matchup still gives 6 on 3/4/5 receivers, which is a numerical advantage - and in fact by consistently sending 5, your OC is forced to start holding back a TE/FB/RB to block more often, so you can focus on defending against 1 less player.

Because we very rarely need to double team any WRs we can afford that extra rusher.
 

Scottemojo

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We heard all this a while back, but this was confirmation from Pete, so it is news.

I think this is a look we would only see a handful of times per game. Except in those games where an exceptional athlete is behind center, which unfortunately for the suspended Irvin is the first two weeks. Irvin parked at WILL could be a good deterrent for Kaepernick and Newton taking off around the weak side.

I have been concerned about the WILL spot for a while, I don't see Malcom as fitting the model. Irvin fits the model, but is completely unproven at the spot.

For those comparing Clemons and Irvin physically, I can't say how big Irvin is post "adderall", but last year he was way smaller than Clemons, I don't care what the official program says. And he plays way smaller. Clemons bullrushes from time to time, Irvin looks like a child when he tries that.

The good news from yesterday? Clemons thinks he will be good to go for day one.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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T-Sizzle":181i6czc said:
Coach Pete Carroll says he plans to move defensive end Bruce Irvin to outside linebacker, where he'll compete with Malcolm Smith for the starting job.
Irvin will still see looks as a defensive end in nickel pass-rushing situations, but isn't big enough to ever earn a full time role on the defensive line. Carroll brought up Irvin's versatility as being extremely valuable to the team, and added "We're a 4-3 personnel system that plays 3-4 looks," indicating Irvin will get plenty of pass rush opportunities at outside linebacker. Expect Irvin to win the job from Smith after serving his four-game suspension for PEDs.

Smart move by Carroll. Im sure they will use him a lot like Von Miller, move him around and he will primarily rush. I like it.
My thought exactly. Good move.
 
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As Pat Kirwin of CBSSports.com divulged today, one such scheme involves the use of a 'spinner'. Kirwin explains:

"When the Seahawks have all four pass rushers (Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett & Bruce Irvin) healthy enough to play together it could be a big problem for the opposition. Eventually Chris Clemons will get back on the field and Seattle will not have to blitz to get to quarterbacks. How will they get the four best rushers on the field considering only one (Michael Bennett) is really suited for the inside over a guard? Look for Cliff Avril at left end, Bennett inside over the center or a guard, Clemons at the right end and Bruce Irvin playing the "spinner" role. The "spinner" stands up and moves during the snap count, meaning he could rush from anywhere.

"Most NFL teams know Pete Carroll has run this scheme before, one head coach is taking special notice: "That Seattle spinner package will be a major problem for teams visiting Seattle," the coach said. "The O-line has to constantly communicate about where the spinner is and where he might cross the line of scrimmage. It won't be easy up in that stadium and it's going to put a lot of stress on the offensive line."

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/3/22/4136666/bruce-irvin-the-spinner-role-in-the-seahawks-defense
Go Hawks,
BillA
 

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I said on draft day he will have to play LB some because he's not an everydown DE. That doesn't mean he'll be the next LT but he has the speed so there's a descent chance he could do well there . I do think that for as high a pick as he was they have to find ways to keep him on the field LB makes sense from that stand point.
 

kearly

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CALIHAWK1":3mzo181n said:
^So if KJ moved to Will and Irvin is at Sam why is he competing with Malcolm Smith for thst spot instead of Toomer, Morgan or one of the other bigger LBs?

My opinion is we are going to see a bunch of new and different stuff. I also think we will see more 3-4 looks.

Avril is going to SAM and he wasn't mentioned as being in competition with Irvin, so that logic cuts both ways. We're going to see a gazillion combinations out there in August, but if for arguments sake Smith ended up at SAM with Wright at WILL, that would completely mystify me. Though I guess it wouldn't be the first time Pete did something counter to convention on defense, I suppose.

As far as the 5 man rushes, I think that's a good thing. It was either FO or Advanced NFL stats that proved how defenses are at their best when they rush 5, with a 4 man rush being a close second.

As has been said though, I think a lot of Irvin's LB play time could just be in a spinner role on 3rd downs, and in those cases he'll be our 4th rusher, even as a blitzing LB.
 

Lynch Mob

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hawker84":keh2pjyj said:
I love it, i don't see him as a legit DE, too small... in order to succeed there, he'd really need to develope solid moves other than the bull and speed rush.. I love the move... How is his coverage skills though?


It was his rookie season and Irvin was undersized, he will need a little time to develop the strength and get more experience in the NFL but he can play DE just needs time. I think his move to SLB is to get more pass rush out of the 4-3 under formation w/Irvin lined up outside Red on the line of scrimage i doubt they will have him dropping back much its probably play the run on the way to the QB.
 

Throwdown

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Bill Assumpcao":rooy1n8q said:
As Pat Kirwin of CBSSports.com divulged today, one such scheme involves the use of a 'spinner'. Kirwin explains:

"When the Seahawks have all four pass rushers (Chris Clemons, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett & Bruce Irvin) healthy enough to play together it could be a big problem for the opposition. Eventually Chris Clemons will get back on the field and Seattle will not have to blitz to get to quarterbacks. How will they get the four best rushers on the field considering only one (Michael Bennett) is really suited for the inside over a guard? Look for Cliff Avril at left end, Bennett inside over the center or a guard, Clemons at the right end and Bruce Irvin playing the "spinner" role. The "spinner" stands up and moves during the snap count, meaning he could rush from anywhere.

"Most NFL teams know Pete Carroll has run this scheme before, one head coach is taking special notice: "That Seattle spinner package will be a major problem for teams visiting Seattle," the coach said. "The O-line has to constantly communicate about where the spinner is and where he might cross the line of scrimmage. It won't be easy up in that stadium and it's going to put a lot of stress on the offensive line."

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2013/3/22/4136666/bruce-irvin-the-spinner-role-in-the-seahawks-defense
Go Hawks,
BillA

My god! Its a god damn shame we gotta til week 4 to see that, but man I want to see that soooooo bad.
 

scutterhawk

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NFL_Football2013":1924bvie said:
FlyingGreg":1924bvie said:
I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.

...this
they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye
Winfield.
 

Pandion Haliaetus

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scutterhawk":2zgbrioz said:
NFL_Football2013":2zgbrioz said:
FlyingGreg":2zgbrioz said:
I say, "why not"? The signings of Avril and Bennett gives us the flexibility to do some creative things.

My biggest concern with Irvin at the Sam is teams running the ball right at him.

...this
they ran at him as a DE, if they run at him as an OLB, he wont be able to set the edge and bye bye


You know I would actually wait until the new look Bruce Irvin takes the field in 2013 before making any assumptions on his play last year where he wasn’t really asked to be a bonafide run-defender until that last game vs the Falcons.

1. Irvin put on about 7-12 pounds on his playing weight from 2012. Irvin looked undersized and lean coming in, now, he looks much stouter. At SAM, he is our biggest LBer by at least 9-14 pounds (K.J. Wright, 246. Bobby Wagner , 241. Craig Wilkins, 238. Every other LBer is "listed" under 235 pounds)

2. Irvin is pretty strong, even though his bench press isn't really a necessary lift, its a comparable one. Irvin had 23 reps, to put that in perspective, recently drafted LBers: Toomer had 20, Wagner had 24, and Wright had 20. Clemons had 18, 9 years ago.

The thing though is coming in last year Irvin didn't look strong, his arms were muscular but thin, heading into this season they look like they doubled in size.

What bothers me mostly is Irvin's seeming lack of lower body strength compared to some of our other players, hopefully, he didn't just invest his off-season time developing just his upper body. To hold up the point attack I would say lower body strength is more necessary than upper body. But his lower body strength is about on par with Wright and entry level Hill, and Clemons. Wagner is elite in this aspect scoring a 11 foot Broad Jump and a 39.5 Vert. A big reason why Wags was one of the best vs the run last season.
But to end my point, Bruce Irvin has undergone sort of a big transformation compared to where he was and what he looked like from last season. In 2013, he looks to be a much stronger, much stouter, and a much more capable defender from a physical aspect. And he has 2 more months to get even bigger, stronger, or just adapt to his new playing size . True, he has a lot to learn about instincts and coverage responsibility but I don’t think we can sit here and say he’ll underperform from a physical standpoint until we see him actually play SAM and see how well he does.

To go away a little from the quoted point:

3. I don't really read much into this move. We knew it was happening months ago. In order for Irvin to become a complete LEO, he needs to play with a LBer's mentality. I also believed this plan for development for Irvin was decided since he was drafted or even perhaps before he was drafted. It correlates well with the deals they gave Clemons, and the deal they gave Avril. Both contracts end after Irvin’s 3rd Season, which in my projection of Irvin’s development is about the time I expect him to become a more complete LEO.

Year 1, learn to be a pass-rusher at the NFL level, work on pass-rush repertoire.

Year 2, learn LBer skills + instincts: defend the point of attack, tackling, coverage responsibilities while continuing to develop his pass-rush abilities.

Year 3, put the knowledge of year 1 and year 2 together, and learn to become a viable defender at the LEO position.

Year 4, take over the LEO position long-term with 3 ½ years of training, coaching, and experience under his belt trending him towards being a more complete player.

But really everything I said really is just speculation on my part. Hopefully, not too many people will strongly disagree like they have when I take a stance especially on this particular player. I just really have high hopes for Irvin, and feel if he can put in the hard work on the field, off the field, and in the classroom he can develop one day into truly elite player for the Seahawks as a LEO prospect and if not, he’ll at least be a terrorizing pass-rusher.
 
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