Kurt Warner breaks down Russell Wilson and Seattle Seahawks

Throwdown · May 13, 2021

keasley45":1ij2c1zq said:
John63":1ij2c1zq said:

AgentDib":1ij2c1zq said:

samwize77":1ij2c1zq said:

To me this is the quintessential "armchair QB". Here is a very good QB looking at tape of another QB. He has the chance to play the tape over and over..and then come up with his opinion and solution. I am pretty certain we could pull up 6 or 7 plays from most any one of Kurts games and see something of the same thing.

Click to expand...

This is a good point that people should keep in mind. NFL QB is one of the most difficult positions in sports and nobody does it perfectly. Kurt is pointing out some valid things that Russ could have done better. He is doing the same thing for every QB and all of those QBs could similarly find things that Kurt could have done better in his career.

Hitting the layup is one specific area that Russ needs to work on in 2021 and it sounds like the entire Seahawks organization feels the same way, from Carroll to Schneider to Waldron. None of us are perfect, and discussing a weakness does not need to become a debate about a player's inherent value.

Click to expand...

This I agree with it something to point out something you can work on, everyone has things they can work on to get better with. I think the issue is some here act like Wilson is the only one who has these things to work on, or that it somehow means he is not a great QB, the you have some who say stupid things like "Layups are not for heroes, and we are blessed with a superhero. OCs have tried to fit round peg into ".

Click to expand...

It might be true that there are folks here that bash Wilson, say he sucks, that we'd be better off without him, etc. I think its a bit extreme. You dont get to be mentioned as a future hall of famer if you suck. Plain and simple. But there's also a group that will look at the video at the center of this thread and classify the criticisms as the ramblings of an armchair QB, say that Warner has an axe to grind or that the plays he references in the piece are somehow invalid because they are void of context like down and distance or knowing what play was called... or that ultimately Wilson would be so much better if he played in Roger's system, or Mahome's system, or had Brady's blocking.

Both sides are nonsense and lack a fundamental understanding of the complexity of the game. A great O-line can look like garbage if the QB holds the ball too long. A middling O-line can look all world with a QB that gets the ball out quick. A play that works can look like it doesnt if a WR isnt where he is supposed to be when the QB looks for him, or when the WR is there and the QB doesnt get him the ball. You get the point...

What Kurt Warner is isolating are examples where the play is obvious, the read, fairly straightforward, and the execution and ultimate success, or lack thereof, clearly in the hands of the QB. Routes are run, blocking is adequate, and the ball never leaves Wilson's hands. There were countless instances in pivitol moments last season when the same thing happened and the blame can be pretty squarely laid at the QB's feet - blocking is good. the read is there, WR is there, and the ball doesnt come out. rather, the play goes for a zero gain or turnover... OR and this is the complicating factor with WIlson - he makes it work anyway and turns what would have been a catastrophe with any other QB into a highlight real play - but one that was maybe only supposed to pick up a 1st down. But a predictable first down that allows an OC to mark it off as a play that is successful in a given situation, thus building an adaptable playbook and blocks to build on as a game or season progresses

Its not hero ball. Wilson is great but has shortcomings. Unique thing about the guy is that he often cleans up or covers up his own mess (yes, he covers others as well) with his ability to reset the play with his feet and find a receiver anyway. He is HOF great, but has holes in his game like most any great player, outside of the elite few who are generational talents.

This right here is all I was saying. It’s just fun to mess with the guys who will defend anything about him. No one on this team should be immune to criticism, even Russ.

toffee · May 13, 2021

Throwdown":1ospq8nd said:
keasley45":1ospq8nd said:

John63":1ospq8nd said:

AgentDib":1ospq8nd said:

This is a good point that people should keep in mind. NFL QB is one of the most difficult positions in sports and nobody does it perfectly. Kurt is pointing out some valid things that Russ could have done better. He is doing the same thing for every QB and all of those QBs could similarly find things that Kurt could have done better in his career.

Hitting the layup is one specific area that Russ needs to work on in 2021 and it sounds like the entire Seahawks organization feels the same way, from Carroll to Schneider to Waldron. None of us are perfect, and discussing a weakness does not need to become a debate about a player's inherent value.

Click to expand...

This I agree with it something to point out something you can work on, everyone has things they can work on to get better with. I think the issue is some here act like Wilson is the only one who has these things to work on, or that it somehow means he is not a great QB, the you have some who say stupid things like "Layups are not for heroes, and we are blessed with a superhero. OCs have tried to fit round peg into ".

Click to expand...

It might be true that there are folks here that bash Wilson, say he sucks, that we'd be better off without him, etc. I think its a bit extreme. You dont get to be mentioned as a future hall of famer if you suck. Plain and simple. But there's also a group that will look at the video at the center of this thread and classify the criticisms as the ramblings of an armchair QB, say that Warner has an axe to grind or that the plays he references in the piece are somehow invalid because they are void of context like down and distance or knowing what play was called... or that ultimately Wilson would be so much better if he played in Roger's system, or Mahome's system, or had Brady's blocking.

Both sides are nonsense and lack a fundamental understanding of the complexity of the game. A great O-line can look like garbage if the QB holds the ball too long. A middling O-line can look all world with a QB that gets the ball out quick. A play that works can look like it doesnt if a WR isnt where he is supposed to be when the QB looks for him, or when the WR is there and the QB doesnt get him the ball. You get the point...

What Kurt Warner is isolating are examples where the play is obvious, the read, fairly straightforward, and the execution and ultimate success, or lack thereof, clearly in the hands of the QB. Routes are run, blocking is adequate, and the ball never leaves Wilson's hands. There were countless instances in pivitol moments last season when the same thing happened and the blame can be pretty squarely laid at the QB's feet - blocking is good. the read is there, WR is there, and the ball doesnt come out. rather, the play goes for a zero gain or turnover... OR and this is the complicating factor with WIlson - he makes it work anyway and turns what would have been a catastrophe with any other QB into a highlight real play - but one that was maybe only supposed to pick up a 1st down. But a predictable first down that allows an OC to mark it off as a play that is successful in a given situation, thus building an adaptable playbook and blocks to build on as a game or season progresses

Its not hero ball. Wilson is great but has shortcomings. Unique thing about the guy is that he often cleans up or covers up his own mess (yes, he covers others as well) with his ability to reset the play with his feet and find a receiver anyway. He is HOF great, but has holes in his game like most any great player, outside of the elite few who are generational talents.

Click to expand...

This right here is all I was saying. It’s just fun to mess with the guys who will defend anything about him. No one on this team should be immune to criticism, even Russ.

Not Saint Russell the Faultless, he is Faultless and untouchable according to some on dot net.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

CDN_C_Hawk · May 13, 2021

Wartooth":24b32llz said:
From watching this 'break down' and the games in 'real time', it does seem that when the pocket starts to break down Russ has a tendency to 'duck down' with the ball... When he does that, he can't see those open receivers in the middle of the field, and it's to late anyway! Definitely room for improvement.

This is my opinion as well, when you have 6'6" linemen being pushed back, those 5-8yd lay-ups in the middle can't be seen clearly. How often have we all screamed..."THROW THE F'ING BALL" ? I believe, this is partly a reason Russ, bails out of the pocket, for vision. If the O-line can stay stout , to maintain pocket for ( give 5 yd space) for 3/4 second longer, those timing routes can be hit for 5-8 yds. maybe, 6'3" / 340lb boulders, along the line, give Russ better view of the box. I can see this frustrating receivers as well, running the perfectly practiced route, but having to free -lance due to that collapsed pocket and possible deflections.

HawkRiderFan · May 13, 2021

Maybe Waldron will do this but one thing I. always thought would work and was frustrated to not see it used was changing Russ's launch point to try and give him a better look. I am not talking full roll out and taking away half the field. Just a little bit to the right or left ti give him a look if he is having trouble seeing form the pocket. I thought the Saints did this effectively with Brees.

The reason I feel hopeful is that I thought I wa the Rams do this with Goff so maybe Waldron will bring that?

John63 · May 13, 2021

CDN_C_Hawk":16b7w01b said:
Wartooth":16b7w01b said:

From watching this 'break down' and the games in 'real time', it does seem that when the pocket starts to break down Russ has a tendency to 'duck down' with the ball... When he does that, he can't see those open receivers in the middle of the field, and it's to late anyway! Definitely room for improvement.

Click to expand...

This is my opinion as well, when you have 6'6" linemen being pushed back, those 5-8yd lay-ups in the middle can't be seen clearly. How often have we all screamed..."THROW THE F'ING BALL" ? I believe, this is partly a reason Russ, bails out of the pocket, for vision. If the O-line can stay stout , to maintain pocket for ( give 5 yd space) for 3/4 second longer, those timing routes can be hit for 5-8 yds. maybe, 6'3" / 340lb boulders, along the line, give Russ better view of the box. I can see this frustrating receivers as well, running the perfectly practiced route, but having to free -lance due to that collapsed pocket and possible deflections.

exactly and it is not just Wilson who has this problem as any QB who is to 6-6 or better will, there is a reason you always here about throwing lanes. The very first example in the video is what I said earlier okay great the Wr was open but the dlineman man was right in the throwing lane we re he might have been able to get a hand on it. Wilson has been pounded to not take chances so of course he would not throw that. That is what I mean by Warner having the benefit of seeing things form on high but not form the view of the QB. Again not to say there are not times eh does not take the layup, but I have seen every QB do that this is not just a Wilson thing like some here want to make it seem. Nor do I blame our Olineman, they were not picked by PC because the could pass block and understood pass blocking, they were picked for run blocking. Also, Wilson does not always duck down if he has a throwing lane he has stood up and made the throw and took the hit with it.

Jville · May 14, 2021

HawkRiderFan":2dnd8xau said:
Maybe Waldron will do this but one thing I. always thought would work and was frustrated to not see it used was changing Russ's launch point to try and give him a better look. I am not talking full roll out and taking away half the field. Just a little bit to the right or left ti give him a look if he is having trouble seeing form the pocket. I thought the Saints did this effectively with Brees.

The reason I feel hopeful is that I thought I wa the Rams do this with Goff so maybe Waldron will bring that?

I've come to appreciate quarterbacks that help their protection with small subtle steps to the left or right and step up into the pocket as rehearsed during the week. I think it makes a big difference in the success of protection planning and game day execution. We have had an offensive coordinator in the past that often talked about helping protection by moving the quarterback's launch points around. So with Waldron, perhaps we'll see and hear some kind of re-emphasis on the subject of moving launch points.

A volunteered thought about roll outs and pocket bolting: I wonder about the impact of emerging player position tracking data on game preparations during the week. Use of all that video and tracking data has no doubt made tendencies more visible for defenses to study during preparations for the next contest. Favorite roll out patterns and bolting tendencies have got to be well mapped by now.

The influence of quality control mapping of player position data is an intriguing development. I'd like to hear an interview or podcast or two on that subject. If you or anyone runs across this subject, please post a link via the forum or private message.

Links to presentations offered by those who have played or worked in the NFL enrich our forum.

Vesuve · May 14, 2021

Jerhawk":a1o0iiru said:
I'm confident that Waldron notices this weakness in Wilson's game, and will hold him accountable. He'll devise a gameplan around Wilson that plays to his strengths and gets the ball out of his hands quicker. Get Wilson out of the pocket where he's most dangerous.

They'll have a great gameplan going into each game until Pete Carroll busts into the offensive meeting room and yells a bunch and destroys the gameplan and reverts back to Pete Ball.

The offense struggles, Pete fires Waldron, Wilson demands a trade.

Damn.

Ruined my appetite.

hoxrox · May 14, 2021

Wow so many plays left on the field, just in one game. The film don't lie. Homers with biased opinions do.

Kurt is talking about "reading the keys" How many years has Russ been in the league now? If he's not reading the keys by now, he never will. It's simply not his game. And he doesn't do lay ups, anyway. He's looking for that 3-pt shot from half court.

Shotty's game plan still wasn't great that day, but there were so many plays to be made. IMO, Pete knew that something had to change because his QB wasn't going to. Pete watches film. He sees the same thing Kurt does. Firing Shotty was, in part, a move to protect Russ. And a move to simplify the offense for him moving forward...

Waldron has a big job to do this season... I would definitely give him some rope before fans start calling for his head.

toffee · May 14, 2021

hoxrox":18axca7x said:
Wow so many plays left on the field, just in one game. The film don't lie. Homers with biased opinions do.

Kurt is talking about "reading the keys" How many years has Russ been in the league now? If he's not reading the keys by now, he never will. It's simply not his game. And he doesn't do lay ups, anyway. He's looking for that 3-pt shot from half court.

Shotty's game plan still wasn't great that day, but there were so many plays to be made. IMO, Pete knew that something had to change because his QB wasn't going to. Pete watches film. He sees the same thing Kurt does. Firing Shotty was, in part, a move to protect Russ. And a move to simplify the offense for him moving forward...

Waldron has a big job to do this season... I would definitely give him some rope before fans start calling for his head.

You got one thing right, Pete fired OCs to protect his beloved QB, in fact rid the team of Sherms of the world to protect the same QB. Team was more successful when it was Russ's team.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

scutterhawk · May 14, 2021

Own The West":3jay0h8z said:
The usual suspects again coming to Russ' defense. smh

Russell makes $35M a year. Why do you want to make excuses for him?

We don't know the down and distance? Hitting the open receiver has a better chance to gain than taking a sack or throwing into coverage.

Warner's biased because he played in Arizona? He was talking straight X's and O's the entire time. In each instance he explained objectively what the reads are and where the 'layups' were.

Warner's never liked Wilson? He repeated how special Russ was 30-some times during that video.

Pete told him him to hold the ball and throw it deep? Pete wants to run the ball and play strong defense; the definition of ball-possession offense. He has said multiple times he wants his QB to be a point guard and distribute the ball. Also, the plays are drawn up with routes at all levels, not just "everybody go long".

Sometimes what is laid out in front of you is exactly what is laid out in front of you.

Wilson's a great QB, but I still want him to play better. I think he's been too focused on big plays and it costs us drives. If he came out and said, "This year I want to lead the league in first downs", I'd start shopping for Super Bowl tickets...

What?, you still have a problem with People who are RW fans?, and are pointing out the legitimate holes in someone else's theory's?
Without a shadow of doubt, Russell Wilson has been playing up behind some of the absolute worst O-Lines for the last 9 years, & MOST of them were set up to block for the RUN game, and it sure as hell didn't hurt that his side-kick was Marshawn Lynch.
Pretty hard to evolve & hone your Quarterback skills, when the Offensive Line is constantly collapsing, and taking the protection to the ground with them.
Hopefully, Waldron will have a better grasp on how to formulate 'In Game' adjustments when the QB protection starts breaking down....It's NOT JUST a Wilson problem, it's his supporting cast that needs "In Game" adjustments.
Just saying that it's all on Wilson is being short sighted.

harryjohnson · May 14, 2021

Dude is a hater. Always has been. He is total jelly.

John63 · May 14, 2021

hoxrox":2o01eci8 said:
Wow so many plays left on the field, just in one game. The film don't lie. Homers with biased opinions do.

Kurt is talking about "reading the keys" How many years has Russ been in the league now? If he's not reading the keys by now, he never will. It's simply not his game. And he doesn't do lay ups, anyway. He's looking for that 3-pt shot from half court.

Shotty's game plan still wasn't great that day, but there were so many plays to be made. IMO, Pete knew that something had to change because his QB wasn't going to. Pete watches film. He sees the same thing Kurt does. Firing Shotty was, in part, a move to protect Russ. And a move to simplify the offense for him moving forward...

Waldron has a big job to do this season... I would definitely give him some rope before fans start calling for his head.

wow I did not know you were a ind reader and know what PC was thinking. :sarcasm_off:

Whats pathetic again like Warner is that you know what the filed looks like for the QBs view. You don't, just like you have no clue what PC is thinking Whats also pathetic is how quick you and others are to point out the plays that you think were left on the field but fail to mention the plays that are made by the Qb that should not have been made, but he made them anyway.

Like Warner its easy to be an armchair Qb Looking at a play form on high but not being able to see from the field level behind the QB.

hoxrox · May 14, 2021

Another note about explosive or chunk plays.

Yes this is/was a part of Pete's philosophy and is backed up by analytics. When offenses are able to complete chunk or explosive plays with regularity, the chances of winning any given game increase significantly, over dink-and-dunk, thousand-cuts, time of possession football.

And yes, Russ is great at these chunk plays.

It becomes a problem when you're trying to force these plays. Pete doesn't like two high safeties, because that means defenses aren't really respecting the running game. They don't necessarily need to establish the run to set up the pass. That's old-school mentality. They need to be able to run effectively, so they are not one-dimensional and easy to defend. But it's not just about running more effectively. It's also about utilizing the entire field in the passing game... and having multiple targets, who can make plays.

This has been an area of weakness, and like others have mentioned, it's not necessarily all on one player, position group, or coaching. But really all of the above. However, the emphasis is on the quarterback since he touches the ball every offensive snap.

That is, unless we'll see some wildcat this season.

brimsalabim · May 14, 2021

Own The West":39cbmkh3 said:
[

Remember, our coach won national championships with the likes of Matt Leinart and Carson Palmer. Russ would be nice to have, but I'm guessing Pete and John have already discussed who they could replace him with.[/quote]

Pete won national championships because he was able to purchase more high end blue chip players than his competition. He left just as soon as he got caught. While he can pay players as much as he wants under NFL rules the salary cap makes it extremely difficult to completely out personel your opponent. He caught lightning in a bottle when Russell Wilson fell into his lap. He had a window with an extremely low cap hit dedicated to his QB and a rejuvenated mauler at running back who didn't require a whole lot of blocking. Pete was able to outspend and out personeel other teams on the defensive side of the ball and still get enough offensive production to win. Unfortunately the window on Pete's system began to close tightly with the owl victory and everyone wanting to get paid and take more cap. Some guys had to go in order to keep the LOB intact but he almost pulled it off again. Once he had to pay his QB like other coaches though that window using Pete's system was closed and boarded up. Pete can still win but he will need to reinvent himself to do so. He will have to bring in top notch X's & O's guys on both sides of the ball and trust those coaches to execute. Pete is still an excellent motivator and he needs to focus on that roll now!

aawolf · May 14, 2021

What we have here is a Hall of Fame classic pocket QB dissecting a few plays that he would have handled differently.

Russel Wilson, for better or worse, is not Kurt Warner.

A few of those plays, Russ didn't follow the correct read because he was pressured, broke contain, and took off for first downs with his legs--these options were not available to Kurt Warner.

I noticed that in most of the plays that Kurt said Russ should have thrown quickly, he was obviously waiting for a reciever to open up downfeild and by the time pressure got to him, it was too late, and he took off. Luckily, Wilson can do that for big gains. Sometimes, it backfires.

Own The West · May 14, 2021

scutterhawk":2qa5qoig said:
Own The West":2qa5qoig said:

The usual suspects again coming to Russ' defense. smh

Russell makes $35M a year. Why do you want to make excuses for him?

We don't know the down and distance? Hitting the open receiver has a better chance to gain than taking a sack or throwing into coverage.

Warner's biased because he played in Arizona? He was talking straight X's and O's the entire time. In each instance he explained objectively what the reads are and where the 'layups' were.

Warner's never liked Wilson? He repeated how special Russ was 30-some times during that video.

Pete told him him to hold the ball and throw it deep? Pete wants to run the ball and play strong defense; the definition of ball-possession offense. He has said multiple times he wants his QB to be a point guard and distribute the ball. Also, the plays are drawn up with routes at all levels, not just "everybody go long".

Sometimes what is laid out in front of you is exactly what is laid out in front of you.

Wilson's a great QB, but I still want him to play better. I think he's been too focused on big plays and it costs us drives. If he came out and said, "This year I want to lead the league in first downs", I'd start shopping for Super Bowl tickets...

Click to expand...

What?, you still have a problem with People who are RW fans?, and are pointing out the legitimate holes in someone else's theory's?
Without a shadow of doubt, Russell Wilson has been playing up behind some of the absolute worst O-Lines for the last 9 years, & MOST of them were set up to block for the RUN game, and it sure as hell didn't hurt that his side-kick was Marshawn Lynch.
Pretty hard to evolve & hone your Quarterback skills, when the Offensive Line is constantly collapsing, and taking the protection to the ground with them.
Hopefully, Waldron will have a better grasp on how to formulate 'In Game' adjustments when the QB protection starts breaking down....It's NOT JUST a Wilson problem, it's his supporting cast that needs "In Game" adjustments.
Just saying that it's all on Wilson is being short sighted.

First off, I don’t have a problem with RW fans. I am a Russell Wilson fan myself.

I just don’t see our struggles on offense as a black and white, Russ vs. Everything Else type issue.

Flyingsquad23 · May 15, 2021

The people with the idea that Russ is only about the explosive play should go look at the TD log for last season. The man threw 40 td passes and only 11 were over 20 yards. Russ can be better, but the dude has made every type of play in the football universe.... he is capable of anything. Execution and consistency are the areas that are required to win the prize. Everyone outside of Brady have proven its hard to win the trophy. In my option Russ has a 5 year window to elevate his game and solidify his place among the elite, I can’t wait to watch it all

Kurt Warner breaks down Russell Wilson and Seattle Seahawks

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