Can We Please For The Love Of God...

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AROS

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The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.
 

pinksheets

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Aros":kt5ylmm8 said:
The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.
The analysis critical of Russ that I've seen has been backed up by the Xs and Os. Lots of all-22 tape of him missing open receivers, ignoring the middle of the middle of the field, hesitating when he should release, etc.

I've seen a lot of emotional reactions akin to "I think he's good" and just wanting to believe Russ is elite when he's really never shown himself comparable to guys like Brady, Manning, or Rodgers. No evidence he's one of those guys

If anything, Pete has coddled a limited QB.
 

LTH

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Aros":3om796cv said:
The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.


it's laughable what is said about Pete... Pete isn't going to be fired... not with one bad season where the starting running back is out for the season and the starting QB is out for several games. if they have another losing season after this one maybe... Maybe people want pete gone but this whole thing is brought on by certain members of the media who need something to write about.



LTH
 

hinton

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Aros":20ll06j2 said:
The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.

While I hope Russ is just in a funk and can get his HOF career back on track, realistically Wilson has been playing mostly poorly for over a year now. The other thing that really concerns me is that when Russ was setting the league on fire to begin last season he wasn't the only one, following the shortened offseason all defenses were giving up yards and points in record numbers until around midseason.

So, the question is - why? No-one has the answer definitively but the recurring options are:
1. Coaching / PC / OC / Peteball - essentially Russ isn't being given the keys to play
2. Russ is in decline and/or limitation in Russ' game
3. The OL and pass pro
4. Russ' mentality / Heroball

The answer might be a combination of all of them, who knows.

There's a few things that really concern me about whether the Russ/Seahawks situation can be fixed:

1. Russ' decline seems to correspond to the time he (or at least Wilsons camp) started to rock the boat with the entire ''Let Russ Cook".

2. Russ seemed to perform better when this team operated a tough running game allowing Russ play-action opportunities, deep-game shots, and the ability to improvise. Arguably PC knows Wilson's abilities/limitations better than Russ does himself. The last couple of seasons have really made me question whether Russ can truly be a pocket QB that goes through his progressions a-la Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.

3. Since Russ signed his first major contract many players have called him out. Specifically Sherm, Bennett, and Baldwin. I kinda ignored this criticism until recently as I assumed a lot of it stemmed from jealously etc, but with almost all the criticism being about RW not being held accountable or made to compete like everyone else. I wonder if we're seeing the results of this finally play out on the field. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Baldwin off the record and really understand his perspective.

If anyone can put my mind at ease about any/all of the points above please do, but I haven't seen anything out there yet that does so.

It's gonna be a really interesting offseason, it doesn't look like Wilson and Carroll can co-exist anymore, philosophically they just don't see eye-to-eye.

If PC was a decade younger I think there could be a difficult decision on whether we move on from HC or QB, but due to his age PC isn't going to stick around long enough for a new QB search. I think we'll see RW play out his contract with a new HC (with PC retiring), my concern is that we've seen the best of Wilson and he simply never gets back to HOF-level play.
 

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I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that Russell hasn't been a poor QB in the post season over his entire career. Maybe the numbers tell a different story, but I've yet to see it. The only playoff game I remember anything about Russell, is the GB Nfc championship game when he went from disaster to improbable comeback. That game is basically a microcosm of his career. Rarely if ever a complet game or a complete season of playing well. Everything is a combination of completely horrible or crazy good, which comes out to middling when you add it up. It has worked great in the regular season up until midway last season.

Not having Russ doesn't worry me, because having him isn't getting us anything we haven't seen the last 5 years and the next 5 is likely to be worse while having to pay him even more than we do now. Is anyone ready to extend Russell for $45 a year after next season? Cause that's what he'll want if not more
 

John63

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hinton":usykug4i said:
Aros":usykug4i said:
The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.

While I hope Russ is just in a funk and can get his HOF career back on track, realistically Wilson has been playing mostly poorly for over a year now. The other thing that really concerns me is that when Russ was setting the league on fire to begin last season he wasn't the only one, following the shortened offseason all defenses were giving up yards and points in record numbers until around midseason.

So, the question is - why? No-one has the answer definitively but the recurring options are:
1. Coaching / PC / OC / Peteball - essentially Russ isn't being given the keys to play
2. Russ is in decline and/or limitation in Russ' game
3. The OL and pass pro
4. Russ' mentality / Heroball

The answer might be a combination of all of them, who knows.

There's a few things that really concern me about whether the Russ/Seahawks situation can be fixed:

1. Russ' decline seems to correspond to the time he (or at least Wilsons camp) started to rock the boat with the entire ''Let Russ Cook".

2. Russ seemed to perform better when this team operated a tough running game allowing Russ play-action opportunities, deep-game shots, and the ability to improvise. Arguably PC knows Wilson's abilities/limitations better than Russ does himself. The last couple of seasons have really made me question whether Russ can truly be a pocket QB that goes through his progressions a-la Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.

3. Since Russ signed his first major contract many players have called him out. Specifically Sherm, Bennett, and Baldwin. I kinda ignored this criticism until recently as I assumed a lot of it stemmed from jealously etc, but with almost all the criticism being about RW not being held accountable or made to compete like everyone else. I wonder if we're seeing the results of this finally play out on the field. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Baldwin off the record and really understand his perspective.

If anyone can put my mind at ease about any/all of the points above please do, but I haven't seen anything out there yet that does so.

It's gonna be a really interesting offseason, it doesn't look like Wilson and Carroll can co-exist anymore, philosophically they just don't see eye-to-eye.

If PC was a decade younger I think there could be a difficult decision on whether we move on from HC or QB, but due to his age PC isn't going to stick around long enough for a new QB search. I think we'll see RW play out his contract with a new HC (with PC retiring), my concern is that we've seen the best of Wilson and he simply never gets back to HOF-level play.

So here is what I'll address as it relates to play

which Qb is Wilson states base on games played this year and last year.

Qb 1
66.4 Complt%
305 ypg
7.6 ypa
2.4 td per game
.7 int per game
100 passer rating


Qb2
66.9 complt%
252 ypg
7.8 ypa
2.2 tds per game
.7 int per game
103 passer rating

qb3
66.4 complt%
300 ypg
7.5 ypa
2.6 tds per game
.8 int s[per game
103 passer rating


In addition, Wilson has one of the better complt% form inside the pocket in the league as well as one of the better outside. What is happening is a few people are seizing on the 2 games after he came back from injury, and a couple of games last year to say he sucks or he cant play well for a whole season all of which are lies, and of course some media who are about clicks are jumping on. For example, in the Greg bell thread in it he clearly states Wr not turning around so they can be thrown to. But the haters ignored that and instead just made stuff up. Prior to the injury, Wilson was #1 in Passer rating and top 5 in ypa, comply %, tds. td/int, and yards ye some want to try to convince you he was playing bad. As soon as he is 100% healthy and shakes off the rust and is playing well again they will change their tune to trade him now. Why they just don't like him. If you look through this forum you will see why, some he is too short, some he does not play like a prototypical Qb, some he is black, some because they think he is sorry, or too robotic. some because they think he is not 100% committed et etc. In the meantime, all he has done year after year is lead this team to win, and set and break records all while being amongst the best in the game.

Remember a year or so ago everyone thought Rodgers was done guess what he was not. Brady went through it. Heck Mahomes had a series of 7 games this year where he played like crap in 5 of them. the only difference is that team was good enough to win even with him playing bad ours is not. There is the big issue Wilson has covered up so much for this team that when he is not 100% or a little off they cant win. every expert knows and has said that, If and when the haters get their wish and Wilson leaves they will be happy and we will be terrible but they will not care.

Pick the one that is Wilson, no cheating, and keep in mind all 3 are top Qbs. This should help you relax and ignore the noise from the haters.
 

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K.J WRIGHT":lnkg74ua said:
Russ should have kept his mouth SHUT in the off season.

He misplayed his hand, his team totally expected Jody to cave to their demand and fire Pete.
 

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Except if Russ does not speak out about what HE wants, then Pete will do what HE wants.

And Russ is still potentially worthwhile, whereas Pete is essentially worthless.

So you can see the problem.
 
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hinton":3ptwnlon said:
Aros":3ptwnlon said:
The only thing I can think to say at this point is if we deal Russell we will regret it. If he was 41, sure. Not now. He's in a funk but let's not throw out or forget who this man has been for all these years. Some of the commentary I've been reading about him lately on this site is LAUGHABLE. And that's being diplomatic and kind.

My guess is a bunch of 20-somethings that don't have a clue about the Hell which was the 90s with this franchise.

While I hope Russ is just in a funk and can get his HOF career back on track, realistically Wilson has been playing mostly poorly for over a year now. The other thing that really concerns me is that when Russ was setting the league on fire to begin last season he wasn't the only one, following the shortened offseason all defenses were giving up yards and points in record numbers until around midseason.

So, the question is - why? No-one has the answer definitively but the recurring options are:
1. Coaching / PC / OC / Peteball - essentially Russ isn't being given the keys to play
2. Russ is in decline and/or limitation in Russ' game
3. The OL and pass pro
4. Russ' mentality / Heroball

The answer might be a combination of all of them, who knows.

There's a few things that really concern me about whether the Russ/Seahawks situation can be fixed:

1. Russ' decline seems to correspond to the time he (or at least Wilsons camp) started to rock the boat with the entire ''Let Russ Cook".

2. Russ seemed to perform better when this team operated a tough running game allowing Russ play-action opportunities, deep-game shots, and the ability to improvise. Arguably PC knows Wilson's abilities/limitations better than Russ does himself. The last couple of seasons have really made me question whether Russ can truly be a pocket QB that goes through his progressions a-la Manning, Brady, Brees, etc.

3. Since Russ signed his first major contract many players have called him out. Specifically Sherm, Bennett, and Baldwin. I kinda ignored this criticism until recently as I assumed a lot of it stemmed from jealously etc, but with almost all the criticism being about RW not being held accountable or made to compete like everyone else. I wonder if we're seeing the results of this finally play out on the field. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with Baldwin off the record and really understand his perspective.

If anyone can put my mind at ease about any/all of the points above please do, but I haven't seen anything out there yet that does so.

It's gonna be a really interesting offseason, it doesn't look like Wilson and Carroll can co-exist anymore, philosophically they just don't see eye-to-eye.

If PC was a decade younger I think there could be a difficult decision on whether we move on from HC or QB, but due to his age PC isn't going to stick around long enough for a new QB search. I think we'll see RW play out his contract with a new HC (with PC retiring), my concern is that we've seen the best of Wilson and he simply never gets back to HOF-level play.

I've seen some good posts on .NET lately and yours gets the golden star. Very astute analysis without caving into typical fan emotion and hyperbole. I am trying to find an element of your take I disagree with and I cannot. Well played. Would love to chat with you over some drinks. Cheers.

:irishdrinkers:
 

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TwistedHusky":26p1zsvo said:
Except if Russ does not speak out about what HE wants, then Pete will do what HE wants.

And Russ is still potentially worthwhile, whereas Pete is essentially worthless.

So you can see the problem.

This^^^
 

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OrangeGravy":131fqx60 said:
I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that Russell hasn't been a poor QB in the post season over his entire career. Maybe the numbers tell a different story, but I've yet to see it. The only playoff game I remember anything about Russell, is the GB Nfc championship game when he went from disaster to improbable comeback. That game is basically a microcosm of his career. Rarely if ever a complet game or a complete season of playing well. Everything is a combination of completely horrible or crazy good, which comes out to middling when you add it up. It has worked great in the regular season up until midway last season.

Not having Russ doesn't worry me, because having him isn't getting us anything we haven't seen the last 5 years and the next 5 is likely to be worse while having to pay him even more than we do now. Is anyone ready to extend Russell for $45 a year after next season? Cause that's what he'll want if not more

Agreed.
 

LTH

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TwistedHusky":31z3e9bn said:
Except if Russ does not speak out about what HE wants, then Pete will do what HE wants.

And Russ is still potentially worthwhile, whereas Pete is essentially worthless.

So you can see the problem.


your actually talking like you completely understand the situation... and you almost had me convinced for a second then I remembered you don't understand Pete...at all...

You don't understand the way Pete works... you just don't... is Pete worthless? I'm never going to tell you you shouldn't have an opinion because that is your right but I'm telling you 100% that no matter if Pete gets fired or what YOU don't UNDERSTAND where Pete Carroll is coming from and thats a true blue fact... your totally missing it in almost everyway possible...





LTH
 

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Thanks for the kind words Aros.

As a bloke I'm always up for a drink, but as an Englishman currently living in North Yorkshire I'm not sure I want to pay the taxi costs to get from here to downtown Seattle :D

I've been to Seattle 4 times since my first visit in the early 2000's with my last being for the Fail Mary game - what a game that was! Hopefully I'll get the chance to head back over for a game next season.

John63, the problem with stats is that you can use them to support almost any narrative you want to push, especially in the NFL which is stats obsessed (and most of them are worthless in isolation).

For every stat that shows RW has been playing well for the last couple of seasons there will be a stat that shows the opposite.

I've tried to take a step back and look at the the top-level stats (team record, offensive ranking, pass-game ranking) and the ever important 'eyeball test'. From what I can see and understand Russ has been regressing for at least a season now, if not longer. I hope he can reverse this but I'm not seeing much (at present) to suggest that he can.
 

John63

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hinton":2ibtg378 said:
Thanks for the kind words Aros.

As a bloke I'm always up for a drink, but as an Englishman currently living in North Yorkshire I'm not sure I want to pay the taxi costs to get from here to downtown Seattle :D

I've been to Seattle 4 times since my first visit in the early 2000's with my last being for the Fail Mary game - what a game that was! Hopefully I'll get the chance to head back over for a game next season.

John63, the problem with stats is that you can use them to support almost any narrative you want to push, especially in the NFL which is stats obsessed (and most of them are worthless in isolation).

For every stat that shows RW has been playing well for the last couple of seasons there will be a stat that shows the opposite.

I've tried to take a step back and look at the the top-level stats (team record, offensive ranking, pass-game ranking) and the ever important 'eyeball test'. From what I can see and understand Russ has been regressing for at least a season now, if not longer. I hope he can reverse this but I'm not seeing much (at present) to suggest that he can.

Agree to disagree problem with the eyeball test it is impossible to remove all biases and predisposition. No matter how hard you try. When I see Wilson I see a guy who has carried this team for years and I see what happens when he is not 100% or he is handcuffed or has a bad game.
 

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The team has been built with the payroll and talent out of balance. Your overall offensive payroll is top 10 while the OL portion is low. The LB are ok but the payroll is higher than the DL or DBs payroll. With no real established playmakers at DL or CB, at least we might have talent in the pipeline on DL if they are able to develop it. The OL pipeline looks bleak.

One thing JS and Pete did was build up OL and DL as a strength. Since the SBs they have shown to be failures in drafting and developing the trenches. I will throw Solari in that mix.

I dont have a problem trading DK for established OLor DL. But we need to bring in another GM,DL coach and OL coach to find and develop talent, who can establish the trenches as a strength of the team.
 

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pinksheets":1iloztt1 said:
I'd be fine keeping Russ, if he acknowledges he's best as a point guard/game manager type who can do some explosivexstuff, as opposed to him thinking he's a Manning/Brady/Rodgers who can dissect defenses. He's not that tier.

I don't think he's easy to replace, but if he won't acknowledge his limitations, you're not going to win with him anyways. Pete here or not.

This. You can't build a reliable offense around a guy who freelances at the position and finds his success when NOT doing what the play calls him to do. Pro Russers will no doubt jump on what i just wrote and say that he has to improvise because the line is terrible or the playcalling is bad. All of these things are intertwined now with Russ having control to call what he wants. And the line play is in part affected by how quickly the ball is out. It's been pretty well documented that if the play isn't their right away these days, Russ isn't progressing through the plays anymore to make them work... he bailing and doin Russ... which is what every D in the league knows he will do.

I just don't see how you get a new HC (any worthwhile one) in here when I'd wager anyone but PC is going to look at what's going on and see Russ's issues for what they are. The limitations of a 10yr pro. And then what? The chances that he does the things he's never done are slim. So we get a new coach, and we struggle again for a season of middling success and then Russ is allowed to walk? And in the process we've swapped out to what? Hoping the coach we gambled on over Russ can steady an entire team?

Or you get a coach in who continues to coddle Russ or believe you can patch together reliable success through weekly improv and the show we've seen for 13 months now continues.

And I say all that not to advocate for Pete to stay longterm. He's allowed whatevers going on to happen. It would just seem to me swapping out the part that on a weekly basis you can see is broken - Russ( and isn't being dictated to in terms of playcalling) Is the lesser gamble at this point.
 

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keasley45":32jgk91r said:
pinksheets":32jgk91r said:
I'd be fine keeping Russ, if he acknowledges he's best as a point guard/game manager type who can do some explosivexstuff, as opposed to him thinking he's a Manning/Brady/Rodgers who can dissect defenses. He's not that tier.

I don't think he's easy to replace, but if he won't acknowledge his limitations, you're not going to win with him anyways. Pete here or not.

This. You can't build a reliable offense around a guy who freelances at the position and finds his success when NOT doing what the play calls him to do. Pro Russers will no doubt jump on what i just wrote and say that he has to improvise because the line is terrible or the playcalling is bad. All of these things are intertwined now with Russ having control to call what he wants. And the line play is in part affected by how quickly the ball is out. It's been pretty well documented that if the play isn't their right away these days, Russ isn't progressing through the plays anymore to make them work... he bailing and doin Russ... which is what every D in the league knows he will do.

I just don't see how you get a new HC (any worthwhile one) in here when I'd wager anyone but PC is going to look at what's going on and see Russ's issues for what they are. The limitations of a 10yr pro. And then what? The chances that he does the things he's never done are slim. So we get a new coach, and we struggle again for a season of middling success and then Russ is allowed to walk? And in the process we've swapped out to what? Hoping the coach we gambled on over Russ can steady an entire team?

Or you get a coach in who continues to coddle Russ or believe you can patch together reliable success through weekly improv and the show we've seen for 13 months now continues.

And I say all that not to advocate for Pete to stay longterm. He's allowed whatevers going on to happen. It would just seem to me swapping out the part that on a weekly basis you can see is broken - Russ( and isn't being dictated to in terms of playcalling) Is the lesser gamble at this point.

As usual you have a very insightful post.

Ive said this many times and nobody has commented or challenged it. EVERY NFL QB goes through periods of growth in which they take a step back and have to reevaluate their decision making...I agree with almost every part of your theory about Russ as I find it to be well researched and well thought out...

what confuses me is if it's true, why isn't Pete addressing it? or maybe he is and we don't know it yet... but from my perspective Pete isn't going to let Wilson keep the Hawks from having a winning season... we can see that maybe he let Wilson and Waldron run with things because he wants to encourage a coach or even a QB to develop their own style in a creative since.. its clear that he has now stepped in and made some adjustments slight as they might be...

you can clearly see from the vid I posted "a great story about Pete" that he is talking about issues after the fact that affected his relationships and coaching performance. I'm sure at the time this was all happening he was not talking to the media about this...just as I'm sure he is not going to talk to the media about what is going on now...we will have to wain a long time to find out what his thoughts are right now...

Maybe he is being honest by saying he doesn't have answers to what's happening or the answers he have not been affective as of this point ... if your right, it's a very difficult situation. interesting to see how his adjustments of simplifying the O works...


Thoughts?


LTH
 

John63

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No, we cant only PC get that, haven't you heard we should not kick a man when is down well unless it's Wilson if it's PC we should not right LTH?
 
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