SHUT DOWN RUSS

LTH":3o25jimg said:

keasley45":3o25jimg said:

I guess it just depends on whether you think he can fix his shortcomings and improve over the next 5 weeks.

I dont see it.

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It's a really difficult choice IMO... If you bench Wilson, then you send him a very strong message that you have lost confidence in him that's a bad thing.

on the flip side if you bench Wilson maybe the competition pulls him out of the funk.


from my perception, I don't see Carroll trading Wilson. Carroll is into his five-year contract and probably will retire after that. Wilson is his best chance to get back to the SB...as there isn't much chance of finding someone better.

that being said I think Carroll believes he can work out of this. Not sure how long Wilson has been an issue. I assume that winning might have masked Wilson's read issues. Not sure if Carroll's ego is an issue here as well. maybe it is a legit criticism that Carroll was ineffective in dealing with the problem for years. I can't imagine that he would not have understood there was a read issue with Wilson and winning was the factor that made him in effective in dealing with the problem. because if you're winning than it's not that much of a problem until the league figures it out which it seems the case for the last couple of years.

Clearly there are more things going on than what we know about...It just feels to me there are other things going on this year.


LTH

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You bring up an good point about Pete's contract, but you can see that the other way too. I've said this before, but I honestly think Pete is bewildered by how Russ has played this and is beside himself still at how Russ is just committed to doing what he wants, with the same results.

He has to know that 1. If Russ can't pick up the xs and os aspect of the game, they have no chance of winning in the next 4 years because the only thing that got Russ over the deficiency before was being able to improvise.

2. He also has to see the collateral damage that the rift between the two of them is causing and how difficult and unlikely it will be for Russ to go from campaigning for 'Let Russ Cook' to what?... 'let Russ manage'..?. I don't think Russ can or will do that. He might for the rest of the year, but not going into next year. Russ is in a position now where I think he has to have a fresh start if he wants to secure his legacy. If he does it under Carrol, that in some ways solidifies the idea that he was a manager the entire time but needed a defense ( which we seem to be getting again ) and a running game (which im sure they will rebivest in) to win anything but the stat game. And I think Pete runs the risk of losing the whole team if he continues to shackle himself to Wilson.

scutterhawk":fcg90vs1 said:

Sgt. Largent":fcg90vs1 said:

keasley45":fcg90vs1 said:

And most of what i hear listening to the media is that he's still rusty and the finger HAS to be bothering him, regardless of what he says.

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That is the prevailing opinion, that Russ's finger is still bothering him, thus the accuracy and passes sailing he normally would make.

But that's not even half of what's wrong with him.......and THAT part is the part he can try to work out through the rest of the season, and hopefully increase his trade value.

There's no upside I can see to shutting him down now, other than you're telling every other GM in the league Russell Wilson's broken and even on a desperate 3-8 team we've given up on him.

Not even discussing what that does to Russell and his relationship with the Seahawk's organization, it will all but kill whatever options you have this off season to try and move forward with Russell if that's their plan.

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^ This ^... I believe that there's a lot more going on than just the injury to his finger, and sitting him, when he obviously wants to play/work his way through his problems out there, would only tell him that you've quit on him.
I'm trying to look at all this from Pete's perspective...He knows that Wilson has given the Seahawks their best chance of winning or at least keeping them in the conversation, ever since he arrived on the scene, now, it has to be eating at him that all of his QB's struggles aren't all on Wilson alone, that's why he's reaching out to finding a RB to help him through his quandary.
The Seahawks do not have a decent run game, so Russ feels that it's ALL on his shoulders, he's overcompensating, and the Defenses are just going to keep keying on him to scramble his throwing lanes & cut off his escape routes.
He has a whole off-season to get back to 100% physically, but he feels as though he needs the game time to try & figure out the other problems with his game, and even though I BELIEVE that he could find the answers on watching hours & hours of game film, with special attention with his own play in particular, but I doubt his competitive spirit would let him get away doing that.
Pete knows that Russell Wilson helped to put the Seahawks over the top, and I believe he's likely going to stand by him through all his struggles, and not throw in the towel.
Just my 2 cents.

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The Seahawks run game was outstanding against GB for much of, if not all of the game, and they didn't run. It was averaging 6 ypc and looked good against the Cardinals, and we didn't run. We ran 12 times the whole game against the WFT and were never able to establish any rhythm on the ground because we passed 30+ times mostky ineffectively and were 3 and out most of the time.

Carson was running at a better than good clip before he went down and Collins has run well with the exception of the Saints game.

Russ isn't passing himself into a drunken stooper because he want to help the run game. He's doing it because he wants to prove that he can and that last years dialing back of the offense was unnecessary. That's what the entire off-season was about. It's what this whole season has been about.

Russ vs Pete. Pass vs Run. Cooking vs Managing.

And we're losing because Russ is putting winning that competition over any other.

keasley45":1grma3ja said:

LTH":1grma3ja said:

keasley45":1grma3ja said:

I guess it just depends on whether you think he can fix his shortcomings and improve over the next 5 weeks.

I dont see it.

Click to expand...

It's a really difficult choice IMO... If you bench Wilson, then you send him a very strong message that you have lost confidence in him that's a bad thing.

on the flip side if you bench Wilson maybe the competition pulls him out of the funk.


from my perception, I don't see Carroll trading Wilson. Carroll is into his five-year contract and probably will retire after that. Wilson is his best chance to get back to the SB...as there isn't much chance of finding someone better.

that being said I think Carroll believes he can work out of this. Not sure how long Wilson has been an issue. I assume that winning might have masked Wilson's read issues. Not sure if Carroll's ego is an issue here as well. maybe it is a legit criticism that Carroll was ineffective in dealing with the problem for years. I can't imagine that he would not have understood there was a read issue with Wilson and winning was the factor that made him in effective in dealing with the problem. because if you're winning than it's not that much of a problem until the league figures it out which it seems the case for the last couple of years.

Clearly there are more things going on than what we know about...It just feels to me there are other things going on this year.


LTH

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You bring up an good point about Pete's contract, but you can see that the other way too. I've said this before, but I honestly think Pete is bewildered by how Russ has played this and is beside himself still at how Russ is just committed to doing what he wants, with the same results.

He has to know that 1. If Russ can't pick up the xs and os aspect of the game, they have no chance of winning in the next 4 years because the only thing that got Russ over the deficiency before was being able to improvise.

2. He also has to see the collateral damage that the rift between the two of them is causing and how difficult and unlikely it will be for Russ to go from campaigning for 'Let Russ Cook' to what?... 'let Russ manage'..?. I don't think Russ can or will do that. He might for the rest of the year, but not going into next year. Russ is in a position now where I think he has to have a fresh start if he wants to secure his legacy. If he does it under Carrol, that in some ways solidifies the idea that he was a manager the entire time but needed a defense ( which we seem to be getting again ) and a running game (which im sure they will rebivest in) to win anything but the stat game. And I think Pete runs the risk of losing the whole team if he continues to shackle himself to Wilson.

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Pete and Wilson cannot co-exist anymore. One (or both) have to go.

Coveryourholes":23bes21b said:

Welshers":23bes21b said:

How have they not done this yet. Its blindingly obvious. He's playing hurt and the season is lost. Let him get time to recover and get a new mentality. This well help his trade value and avoid risking injury. He could use a break for his mental space if he returns anyway. Love the guy but shut him down for the season.

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It’s possible that he’s hurt - but it’s also possible it is something more mental than physical which looks likely. If it’s mental then shutting him down for the season doesn’t make sense - addressing whatever is happening in his head out in the open could help more than just having him sit the rest of the season.

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I know most people on here are Russ fans, I'm not. Truth be told Wilson is getting exposed. Wilson's swing for the fences QB style doesn't work in this offense and Wilson knows it and that's why he's getting frustrated.

scutterhawk":22dg912z said:

Sgt. Largent":22dg912z said:

keasley45":22dg912z said:

And most of what i hear listening to the media is that he's still rusty and the finger HAS to be bothering him, regardless of what he says.

Click to expand...

That is the prevailing opinion, that Russ's finger is still bothering him, thus the accuracy and passes sailing he normally would make.

But that's not even half of what's wrong with him.......and THAT part is the part he can try to work out through the rest of the season, and hopefully increase his trade value.

There's no upside I can see to shutting him down now, other than you're telling every other GM in the league Russell Wilson's broken and even on a desperate 3-8 team we've given up on him.

Not even discussing what that does to Russell and his relationship with the Seahawk's organization, it will all but kill whatever options you have this off season to try and move forward with Russell if that's their plan.

Click to expand...

^ This ^... I believe that there's a lot more going on than just the injury to his finger, and sitting him, when he obviously wants to play/work his way through his problems out there, would only tell him that you've quit on him.
I'm trying to look at all this from Pete's perspective...He knows that Wilson has given the Seahawks their best chance of winning or at least keeping them in the conversation, ever since he arrived on the scene, now, it has to be eating at him that all of his QB's struggles aren't all on Wilson alone, that's why he's reaching out to finding a RB to help him through his quandary.
The Seahawks do not have a decent run game, so Russ feels that it's ALL on his shoulders, he's overcompensating, and the Defenses are just going to keep keying on him to scramble his throwing lanes & cut off his escape routes.
He has a whole off-season to get back to 100% physically, but he feels as though he needs the game time to try & figure out the other problems with his game, and even though I BELIEVE that he could find the answers on watching hours & hours of game film, with special attention with his own play in particular, but I doubt his competitive spirit would let him get away doing that.
Pete knows that Russell Wilson helped to put the Seahawks over the top, and I believe he's likely going to stand by him through all his struggles, and not throw in the towel.
Just my 2 cents.

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Running off of the pass only works of you have a wicked effective pass game. If you tally up the splits between GB and WFT , we've called 23 runs vs 72 passes, 1 TD and 2 int's through the air. You can't hope to establish a running game when the pass game is that poor. And Russ can't be effective unless he has a run game to play off of.

The Seahawks run game was outstanding against GB for much of, if not all of the game, and they didn't run. It was averaging 6 ypc and looked good against the Cardinals, and we didn't run. We ran 12 times the whole game against the WFT and were never able to establish any rhythm on the ground because we passed 30+ times mostky ineffectively and were 3 and out most of the time.

Carson was running at a better than good clip before he went down and Collins has run well with the exception of the Saints game.

Russ isn't passing himself into a drunken stooper because he want to help the run game. He's doing it because he wants to prove that he can and that last years dialing back of the offense was unnecessary. That's what the entire off-season was about. It's what this whole season has been about.

Russ vs Pete. Pass vs Run. Cooking vs Managing.

And we're losing because Russ is putting winning that competition over any other.

The bottom line with this conversation is simple, a divorce is happening.

We can debate who's leaving and who's staying, but there's no way the Schneider, Carroll and Wilson relationship moves beyond this year.

Either one of all three of these pieces will be decided by ownership, or it'll be forced by Wilson.

All this year did was open John and Pete's eyes that trying to win with Russell might not be their best option going forward, should they remain employed.

And it reinforced Russell's decision to decide he wants to move on as well.

Sgt. Largent":1azvxvjc said:

The bottom line with this conversation is simple, a divorce is happening.

We can debate who's leaving and who's staying, but there's no way the Schneider, Carroll and Wilson relationship moves beyond this year.

Either one of all three of these pieces will be decided by ownership, or it'll be forced by Wilson.

All this year did was open John and Pete's eyes that trying to win with Russell might not be their best option going forward, should they remain employed.

And it reinforced Russell's decision to decide he wants to move on as well.

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Yup

Sgt. Largent":32l03rt5 said:

The bottom line with this conversation is simple, a divorce is happening.

We can debate who's leaving and who's staying, but there's no way the Schneider, Carroll and Wilson relationship moves beyond this year.

Either one of all three of these pieces will be decided by ownership, or it'll be forced by Wilson.

All this year did was open John and Pete's eyes that trying to win with Russell might not be their best option going forward, should they remain employed.

And it reinforced Russell's decision to decide he wants to move on as well.

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I'm not saying you're wrong because I don't know... i don't think anybody really knows except the organization. I just think there is more to it than what we know. The season needs to play out. everything else is just speculation but we can name this the Sgt Largent Russ theory LMAO!!!!

You said:

"All this year did was open John and Pete's eyes that trying to win with Russell might not be their best option going forward, should they remain employed."

I would be highly surprised if Carroll and or the past O coordinators just found out about the issues with Russ. you don't coach a player for 10 years and not figure that out... or even draft a player without understanding what his issues are especially something simple like read issues.

but maybe they have come to the conclusion you have stated it just doesn't look that way from where i stand


just my take




LTH

LTH":23mz7qly said:

I would be highly surprised if Carroll and or the past O coordinators just found out about the issues with Russ. you don't coach a player for 10 years and not figure that out... or even draft a player without understanding what his issues are especially something simple like read issues.

but maybe they have come to the conclusion you have stated it just doesn't look that way from where i stand


LTH

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The issues we see with Russ this year are not the same issues you're talking about.

He's now been hurt, and now he appears to be mentally broken. Those are new issues, and ones that might not, and PROBALY won't be able to be worked out and fixed under his current coach and situation here.

Pete is the eternal optimist, so maybe he does think Russell is still the answer going forward. But my point is I'd be shocked that Schneider and ownership feels the same.

Not after watching this dumpster fire of a season unfold.

If they bring back this trilogy of dysfunction? Then Jody deserves another 2-3 years of 5-6 win seasons. No owner, company, organization suffers through a year like this and decides "nope, all is well! Let's do this some more!"

Sgt. Largent":1zaogalw said:

LTH":1zaogalw said:

I would be highly surprised if Carroll and or the past O coordinators just found out about the issues with Russ. you don't coach a player for 10 years and not figure that out... or even draft a player without understanding what his issues are especially something simple like read issues.

but maybe they have come to the conclusion you have stated it just doesn't look that way from where i stand


LTH

Click to expand...

The issues we see with Russ this year are not the same issues you're talking about.

He's now been hurt, and now he appears to be mentally broken. Those are new issues, and ones that might not, and PROBALY won't be able to be worked out and fixed under his current coach and situation here.

Pete is the eternal optimist, so maybe he does think Russell is still the answer going forward. But my point is I'd be shocked that Schneider and ownership feels the same.

Not after watching this dumpster fire of a season unfold.

If they bring back this trilogy of dysfunction? Then Jody deserves another 2-3 years of 5-6 win seasons. No owner, company, organization suffers through a year like this and decides "nope, all is well! Let's do this some more!"

Click to expand...

I want to know why you think this can't be worked out? Thats kind of why I want to wait till the season plays out before I judge it. If your right and it is a new problem, then shouldn't Carroll have a chance to work it out?



I'm holding my judgment till the season plays out.

LTH

Too much is made of Russ vs. Pete around here drummed up by posters who favor one so they blame the other. Both have had successes and shortcomings. Much of our recent history makes sense if you look at it from the perspective of Russ being one of Pete's favorite players ever.

Pete has sided with Russ at every point over the years and always wants to win. He does not want to trade Russ with a huge dead money penalty and then suffer through a tank year while we develop youth, particularly on the heels of a bad season this year. He wants the offense to turn things around in these last six games and to have Russ as the starting QB in 2022 where the Hawks go all in again on another year before he retires.

On Russ's side he has plenty of support from the coaching staff, a ton of power at the line of scrimmage, and one of best WR tandems in the NFL. His complaints last off-season were generated from his camp and new talent agency in order to shift the focus away from a poor finish to the season. He isn't going to want to deal with the New York media or go play for the kind of bad team that would be willing to give us good draft compensation.

LTH":1zt1d6uy said:

Sgt. Largent":1zt1d6uy said:

LTH":1zt1d6uy said:

I would be highly surprised if Carroll and or the past O coordinators just found out about the issues with Russ. you don't coach a player for 10 years and not figure that out... or even draft a player without understanding what his issues are especially something simple like read issues.

but maybe they have come to the conclusion you have stated it just doesn't look that way from where i stand


LTH

Click to expand...

The issues we see with Russ this year are not the same issues you're talking about.

He's now been hurt, and now he appears to be mentally broken. Those are new issues, and ones that might not, and PROBALY won't be able to be worked out and fixed under his current coach and situation here.

Pete is the eternal optimist, so maybe he does think Russell is still the answer going forward. But my point is I'd be shocked that Schneider and ownership feels the same.

Not after watching this dumpster fire of a season unfold.

If they bring back this trilogy of dysfunction? Then Jody deserves another 2-3 years of 5-6 win seasons. No owner, company, organization suffers through a year like this and decides "nope, all is well! Let's do this some more!"

Click to expand...

I want to know why you think this can't be worked out? Thats kind of why I want to wait till the season plays out before I judge it. If your right and it is a new problem, then shouldn't Carroll have a chance to work it out?



I'm holding my judgment till the season plays out.

LTH

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Because this has been a 6-7 year ever devolving problem, the divorce is inevitable.

Maybe Allen allows Pete to finish out his contract and Pete talks Russ into coming back for yet another year.

My question for you would be what on earth would give you optimism for this marriage to work again? Or if it even worked at all.

We won a SB off the back of an all time great defense and a borderline HOF RB who fit Pete's offensive scheme perfectly.....and yes Russ played well, but he's not the reason we won a SB. He was in his 2nd season, and only threw the ball 20 times a game. Ran around, made some plays, that was it.

Coincidence that as soon as the defense crumbled, everyone left and this because Russ's team, no more deep playoff runs?

Nope. That's why things have to change, now more than ever. So again, pick any scenario you want with who leaves and who stays. But the marriage of Pete and Russ won't be a good thing. If you'd like to change my mind with some logic and sense, by all means fire away.

Sgt. Largent":3olt8ea0 said:

LTH":3olt8ea0 said:

Sgt. Largent":3olt8ea0 said:

LTH":3olt8ea0 said:

I would be highly surprised if Carroll and or the past O coordinators just found out about the issues with Russ. you don't coach a player for 10 years and not figure that out... or even draft a player without understanding what his issues are especially something simple like read issues.

but maybe they have come to the conclusion you have stated it just doesn't look that way from where i stand


LTH

Click to expand...

The issues we see with Russ this year are not the same issues you're talking about.

He's now been hurt, and now he appears to be mentally broken. Those are new issues, and ones that might not, and PROBALY won't be able to be worked out and fixed under his current coach and situation here.

Pete is the eternal optimist, so maybe he does think Russell is still the answer going forward. But my point is I'd be shocked that Schneider and ownership feels the same.

Not after watching this dumpster fire of a season unfold.

If they bring back this trilogy of dysfunction? Then Jody deserves another 2-3 years of 5-6 win seasons. No owner, company, organization suffers through a year like this and decides "nope, all is well! Let's do this some more!"

Click to expand...

I want to know why you think this can't be worked out? Thats kind of why I want to wait till the season plays out before I judge it. If your right and it is a new problem, then shouldn't Carroll have a chance to work it out?



I'm holding my judgment till the season plays out.

LTH

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Because this has been a 6-7 year ever devolving problem, the divorce is inevitable.

Maybe Allen allows Pete to finish out his contract and Pete talks Russ into coming back for yet another year.

My question for you would be what on earth would give you optimism for this marriage to work again? Or if it even worked at all.

We won a SB off the back of an all time great defense and a borderline HOF RB who fit Pete's offensive scheme perfectly.....and yes Russ played well, but he's not the reason we won a SB. He was in his 2nd season, and only threw the ball 20 times a game. Ran around, made some plays, that was it.

Coincidence that as soon as the defense crumbled, everyone left and this because Russ's team, no more deep playoff runs?

Nope. That's why things have to change, now more than ever. So again, pick any scenario you want with who leaves and who stays. But the marriage of Pete and Russ won't be a good thing. If you'd like to change my mind with some logic and sense, by all means fire away.

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I wouldn't say I was optimistic about the situation. I really don't know what is happening inside the organization. I'm kind of at a wait and see how the season plays out mode. I just don't think there is enough information to make a determination on the situation... that's where I'm at...I tend to put some faith in Carroll that he will find a way to work it out that might be optimistic...

I know there is a problem with Russ reads
I know Russ has some accuracy issues due to his injury
I've heard Carroll say many times Russ's finger is fine
I've heard Carroll say Russ has missed some open receivers
Ive heard Carroll say that he feels Russ just needs to play more and work it out
I know there is problems with injury with the RB situation that affects Russ's play

but other than that, from what I can see everything else is speculation. especially from the media
I think Russ is struggling mentally
I think there might be some conflict inside the organization, don't exactly know what it is, or who it's with.
I have no idea how JS or Jody Allen feels about the situation
Carroll has not said ANYTHING to suggest there is strife in the organization.
I don't expect Carroll to say anything about conflict in the organization.



So I just see no other conclusion from my perspective but to wait and see how it plays out or wait until we get better information

Is that reasonable?

Edit; I'm not trying to change your mind. just trying to discuss the issue. you might be right I don't know.


LTH

Sgt. Largent":9eyyh3nd said:

keasley45":9eyyh3nd said:

Sgt. Largent":9eyyh3nd said:

Welshers":9eyyh3nd said:

How have they not done this yet. Its blindingly obvious. He's playing hurt and the season is lost. Let him get time to recover and get a new mentality. This well help his trade value and avoid risking injury. He could use a break for his mental space if he returns anyway. Love the guy but shut him down for the season.

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I don't understand how shutting down Russell helps his trade value.

Shutting him down now assures the bottom of the market for trade value, injured, shook and performing terribly.

Your only chance at increasing his trade value is to keep playing him and hope as the injury improves, so does his play. Cause right now? You're assuring yourself the bottom of the market. You NEED him to improve and put together good games to show he's healing and back to at least 75% of his old self.

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I dont agree with that. The prevailing opinion right now is that Russ's play is due to his injury. If you shut him down, The stink fest that was the last several weeks now gets attributed to how he came back to soon, but the real Russ is the Russ we knew before the finger.

If he's allowed to play, logic dictates that his finger is getting better every week. If his finger gets better and he's still not making good reads, still not feeling the pocket well, and still struggling the way he's been, well then you have to attribute the play to something else. And the rumblings are already getting louder that he's just not playing good ball, not making good reads, and contributing to the offense's struggles. Shutting him down eliminates that possibility.

The other reason to shut him down now, especially if the tea leaves say he's likely gone after this year (and where last year he was passively threatening he wanted out, i thin this year the Hawks actively shop him), you dont want him hurt anymore than he has been. So sitting him now assures that whoever gets him next gets a 100% healthy Wilson, as opposed to one that was maybe still sailing balls and nursing a finger or god forbid recovering from some other injury he might endure between now and the end of the year.

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I haven't seen one person say that the prevailing opinion right now is Russ's play is due to his injury. Those people include the media, Pete and Russ himself.

They all say while his injury is a factor (balls sailing, inaccuracy), there's other things going on right now with Russ. He's shook, he's lost, he's rusty, whatever you want to call it. He's not seeing open receivers, he's not throwing to the right receivers, he's not checking protection correctly, he's hesitant, etc.



If it was his finger, Pete would be considering shutting him down......and again all that does is show other GM's what we're all seeing, a broken Russell not worth giving up 2-3 first rounders and a package of players for come January and February.

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I think the larger point is that he hasn't bottomed out in value, yet! He's somewhere in the middle. If he maintains this level of play fir 6 more games, his value is worse than now. It's still possibly close enough to his injury to use that as an excuse to shut him down if you wanted, whether it's the real reason or not. The only problem is all parties involved have to agree to it. If you shut him down and claim the finger, but Russ contradicts that publicly, shit show