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LJ Collier starting at 5T over Rasheem Green

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  • On the unofficial depth chart. Update needs to be made to replace Ursua with Hart.

    RCB listed as Flowers OR Dunbar, so no update there.



    I'm pretty jacked. I'm hoping to see more of what he put on tape in college - strength, decent pressure, and solid anchor. A healthy minicamp may be just the ticket for him. Also, LJ Collier emerging would keep Rasheem fresh off the bench. Bodes well for the rotation.
    Last edited by Maelstrom787 on Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Thx for sharing. Really looking forward to seeing what this rotation can do. Opportunity right in front of these guys. Did I want them to add more? Absolutely. But, this is what we have, time to rock.
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  • Glad they're giving LJ a chance. I don't get what anyone sees in Green. He's Captain Invisible.
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  • Certainly won't be an exclusive position given our lack of defensive tackles. He'll be kicking inside a lot.
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  • My money's on Trey Flowers. Dunbar hasn't had enough reps of this defense, and I'm pretty sure Washington's defense was a lot different.
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  • ivotuk wrote:My money's on Trey Flowers. Dunbar hasn't had enough reps of this defense, and I'm pretty sure Washington's defense was a lot different.


    Flowers must have bulked up a lot to play 5T. Good on him for stepping in where we need the help.


    EDIT: I admit, I only looked at the headline and thought the guy I’m quoting accidentally posted in the wrong thread. I’ll leave my idiocy up though.
    Last edited by Rat on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • ivotuk wrote:My money's on Trey Flowers. Dunbar hasn't had enough reps of this defense, and I'm pretty sure Washington's defense was a lot different.


    I agree. Flowers should start the season, he's had the more complete camp. Dunbar probably needs to work his way in and get some consistent work under his belt.
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  • Rat wrote:
    ivotuk wrote:My money's on Trey Flowers. Dunbar hasn't had enough reps of this defense, and I'm pretty sure Washington's defense was a lot different.


    Flowers must have bulked up a lot to play 5T. Good on him for stepping in where we need the help.


    :ditto: What a 5T he will make for our team! :irishdrinkers:
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  • To be serious though, if LJ can at least be a serviceable 5T that is a good thing. We certainly do need a young guy to step up on our D-Line, and he is our most recent highest pick in the draft. So time to shine young man!
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  • They signed backup type players like Finney, Ogbuehi, Hollister for around $10M, over a legit starter like Everson Griffen for $6M-$10M.

    Old/injury plagued Greg Olsen with one foot in the broadcast booth was more of a priority than the DL.

    We shall see
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  • massari wrote:They signed backup type players like Finney, Ogbuehi, Hollister for around $10M, over a legit starter like Everson Griffen for $6M-$10M.

    Old/injury plagued Greg Olsen with one foot in the broadcast booth was more of a priority than the DL.

    We shall see


    Fair to wonder just how much Griffen has left in the tank after a fairly bad second half of last season for him.
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  • It is also fair to wonder whether Everton Griffin will be able to finish this Covid-affected season without mental health issues interfering .


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  • I wonder if Collier/Green can consistently play as well as Griffen at his worst from those final 6 regular season games of last season, where he supposedly managed only one game above a 70 PFF grade after his hot start to the season. Griffen was a beast in the playoffs against the Saints though.

    godawg wrote:It is also fair to wonder whether Everton Griffin will be able to finish this Covid-affected season without mental health issues interfering .


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    What If? That doesn't sound like a very good reason to avoid signing a proven talent, at a very important position, at the expense of 2-3 guys like that.
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  • If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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  • It's also fair to wonder if Griffen, like Clowney, simply didn't want to play here, and would only have done so for a significantly larger contract.

    I know we all tend to view Seattle as the destination team, and think that the only thing standing in the way of free agents signing with the Hawks is money.

    What if I told you that a lot of defensive stars have been pretty unhappy here? Some of them have even been pretty vocal about it. What if I told you that most of these free agents are good buddies with our former, and current, defensive players, and they get the vibe of the team by talking with those who have experience in the system?

    Maybe these guys would prefer to go to a system where there isn't so much pressure put on the defense to be the bulwark behind which the offense stands, for three quarters of the game, while looking for pot shots.

    Maybe those d-line guys would rather go to a system that lets them shine at attacking the offense, instead of one built around the line being a wall that lets the linebackers and secondary shine.

    I'm sure we could have freed up the necessary money to bring in Clowney or Griffen, but maybe they just really didn't want to come here.

    Just some thoughts on the situation.
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  • toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Or maybe neither sucked and Collier just had a very good camp
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  • toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Many fans will think the same way, but I believe Pete wants LJ to start to protect against the run, and then bring in Green on obvious passing downs.
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  • nwHawk wrote:
    toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Many fans will think the same way, but I believe Pete wants LJ to start to protect against the run, and then bring in Green on obvious passing downs.


    This
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  • I'm not sure the term "starter" means as much as it used to, especially on the D-Line where they rotate guys every series, and are changing guys in and out every play based on down and distance.

    :Dunno:
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  • I like LJ Collier a lot more than most. He's not your traditional Edge rusher, but will probably average 8 - 9 sacks a year. Where his value comes in is going to be setting the edge, and stopping the run. 2 things we sucked at last year. People ran all over us, then killed us with misdirection and the passing game.

    I'm shocked that we won as many games as we did, but that's all a credit to Russell Wilson,Tyler Lockett, DK Metcalk and Chris Carson among others.

    I think our defense vastly improves this year, coming in around the top 10, maybe at #12. I've been kind of up an down on this, but I think #12 is reasonable, and good enough, with our offense, to get to the SuperB Owl.

    And I think LJ is going to be part of that improvement.

    For those that think he was overdrafted, maybe so, but not by much. He was probably valued as a 2nd round pick by most people, and I know Todd McShay had him as a very late 1st, to mid 2nd round pick. And that late in the 1st round, you're unlikely to find a legit first round talent. FYI, McShay thought Seattle was the best place for Collier to go for success in the NFL.

    Is TCU’s L.J. Collier a first-round pick?

    McShay’s most against-the-grain take is the Patriots taking TCU defensive end L.J. Collier at the end of the first round.

    In over 50 mock drafts surveyed in our SB Nation database, it’s the only time Collier appears in the first round. In his mock draft six days ago, McShay had Collier just outside the first round at No. 35 to the Raiders.

    There are surprising first-round picks every year (nobody projected Steelers safety Terrell Edmunds in the first round last year), so it’s certainly possible that Collier gets his name called.

    Collier’s athletic profile doesn’t scream first-round pick, nor do his 14.5 sacks in four seasons. But McShay clearly sees something in the TCU pass rusher that most others don’t.

    https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/4/9/1 ... pn-3-round
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  • AlciG wrote:
    toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Or maybe neither sucked and Collier just had a very good camp


    I'm tired of the whole "Collier must suck" narrative. He had some rookie year setbacks.

    Given a chance, he can still develop into a solid contributor or more. It's not like it's never happened before.
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  • Duh, base 5T is a runstuffers role.

    Keeps Rasheem fresh to rush the passer.
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  • Grahamhawker wrote:
    AlciG wrote:
    toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Or maybe neither sucked and Collier just had a very good camp


    I'm tired of the whole "Collier must suck" narrative. He had some rookie year setbacks.

    Given a chance, he can still develop into a solid contributor or more. It's not like it's never happened before.


    Nobody was sticking up for Collier until the offseason passed without any notable DT signings (beyond Reed) and left us with the need to be enthusiastic about him. Before that, he had been mostly written off, fairly or not. So the optimism isn't founded in anything except our own perspective.

    I have been made aware of an article out there that indicates Collier was a lot more injured than Carroll originally let on and that his entire year was basically an injury redshirt. If true, that could bode better for him.
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  • Our DB's better be damn good.
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  • Bobblehead wrote:Our DB's better be damn good.


    If they perform as hellishly good as they look on paper, this is a Super Bowl caliber team.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Grahamhawker wrote:
    AlciG wrote:
    toffee wrote:If Collier is starting instead of Green at 5 tech, one got to wonder how much Green sucked at training camp.

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    Or maybe neither sucked and Collier just had a very good camp


    I'm tired of the whole "Collier must suck" narrative. He had some rookie year setbacks.

    Given a chance, he can still develop into a solid contributor or more. It's not like it's never happened before.


    Nobody was sticking up for Collier until the offseason passed without any notable DT signings (beyond Reed) and left us with the need to be enthusiastic about him. Before that, he had been mostly written off, fairly or not. So the optimism isn't founded in anything except our own perspective.

    I have been made aware of an article out there that indicates Collier was a lot more injured than Carroll originally let on and that his entire year was basically an injury redshirt. If true, that could bode better for him.


    I'm pretty sure there were enough people saying to give the guy a chance after missing camp injured en probably never being totally healthy. It's just that you choose not to listen to those people so in your mind nobody stuck up for him.

    I don't feel the need to be enthusiastic about anybody. I will wait and see how this plays out in the long run, but I will be cheering for him to do well. Just as I will be cheering for everybody in the team to do well.
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  • I'm hoping the Collier start is indicative of performance level in practice than we haven't been privy to, and that he really is coming into his own. That would help us a lot, especially if he prove handy at stuffing the run.
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  • I have to see how devastating he is in his match up this week, Matty Ice is a Statue, Gurly better hit the ground hard and go backwards.
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  • chris98251 wrote:I have to see how devastating he is in his match up this week, Matty Ice is a Statue, Gurly better hit the ground hard and go backwards.
    This!

    We must also remember Collier is basically a rookie that haven't had a complete off season of practice. So it might still take him a few games to totally get into it. If by game 6 or 7, he hasn't flashed .... We can judge.

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  • Cannot wait to see these guys as well as Alton Robinson I wonder if Green is trade bait for a DT prospect if not could wind up being his final year. Especially if Robinson and Mayowa continue to impress. Also when Taylor gets healthy what then?
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  • The theory that Collier's injury last year was much worse/more debilitating than Pete let on makes a lot of sense...
    Even when Collier finally got on the field, his presence was... well, mostly invisible.

    I like to think I understand Pete's player development thinking as a coach...

    So last year, Pete wanted LJ to get on the field, not so much for the contribution he would make, but to orient LJ's mind, acclimate him to the speed and intensity of a real NFL game, so he would know the standard he needed to prepare for in the offseason. Collier wasn't really full healthy, hadn't recovered his strength and burst, when he got on the field, but sucked about the same as Pete's other options, so Pete & Norton decided to get LJ some field reps.

    It also means...
    * Pete believes in LJ's determination, character, and work ethic
    * Pete believes in LJ's athleticism, and physical ability to compete, at the NFL level, when healthy
    * Pete sees LJ as a multi-year varsity contributor (being at heart still a college coach in many ways)
    * Collier has performed well enough in 2020, over Rasheem Green and other options, to earn the start
    * Pete is confident enough in Collier's near-term upside that he didn't feel the need to mortgage the farm for Clowney

    We know Pete & John love guys who have overcome setbacks and succeeded anyway. LJ Collier checks a lot of boxes on that, losing his mother to cancer as a teenager.

    So I went and watched some of Collier's 2019 college tape. Frankly, he looked underwhelming on most plays. So I'm honestly not sure what the Hawks saw in him to merit a 2nd round selection. Slow off the ball, or as some pre-draft reports said, Collier waits for the tackle to show how he's going to block before making any moves. So, I'm going to trust that Pete and John saw raw potential and athleticism they are confident they can coach up into an NFL-caliber difference-maker. I sure hope they're right.

    Does anyone think Collier looks like an NFL star instead of like a stiff in this 2018 game vs. Texas? Please educate the doubters on why, and what an NFL scout would take away from this game.

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  • olyfan63 wrote:The theory that Collier's injury last year was much worse/more debilitating than Pete let on makes a lot of sense...
    Even when Collier finally got on the field, his presence was... well, mostly invisible.

    I like to think I understand Pete's player development thinking as a coach...

    So last year, Pete wanted LJ to get on the field, not so much for the contribution he would make, but to orient LJ's mind, acclimate him to the speed and intensity of a real NFL game, so he would know the standard he needed to prepare for in the offseason. Collier wasn't really full healthy, hadn't recovered his strength and burst, when he got on the field, but sucked about the same as Pete's other options, so Pete & Norton decided to get LJ some field reps.

    It also means...
    * Pete believes in LJ's determination, character, and work ethic
    * Pete believes in LJ's athleticism, and physical ability to compete, at the NFL level, when healthy
    * Pete sees LJ as a multi-year varsity contributor (being at heart still a college coach in many ways)
    * Collier has performed well enough in 2020, over Rasheem Green and other options, to earn the start
    * Pete is confident enough in Collier's near-term upside that he didn't feel the need to mortgage the farm for Clowney

    We know Pete & John love guys who have overcome setbacks and succeeded anyway. LJ Collier checks a lot of boxes on that, losing his mother to cancer as a teenager.

    So I went and watched some of Collier's 2019 college tape. Frankly, he looked underwhelming on most plays. So I'm honestly not sure what the Hawks saw in him to merit a 2nd round selection. Slow off the ball, or as some pre-draft reports said, Collier waits for the tackle to show how he's going to block before making any moves. So, I'm going to trust that Pete and John saw raw potential and athleticism they are confident they can coach up into an NFL-caliber difference-maker. I sure hope they're right.

    Does anyone think Collier looks like an NFL star instead of like a stiff in this 2018 game vs. Texas? Please educate the doubters on why, and what an NFL scout would take away from this game.


    Does he look like a star from that single game tape? I'd have to say no, but that would be a minimal analysis at best.

    It seems like most of the pre-draft scouting reports on Collier were pretty consistent with what you mentioned.

    I surmise they like how his versatility, good hand fighting, effort and attitude could develop into an inside pass rush specialist ala Mike Bennett, but I think we'd have to hear from Pete and John to know exactly what they saw/see in him. Some notes on their views here: https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/big-12/texas-christian-university/article229765284.html.
    Highlights:
    "L.J. Collier had an impressive senior season at TCU, taking full advantage of becoming a full-time starter by earning All-Big 12 honors. But Collier really started standing out to NFL teams at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, Alabama in late January, bull rushing his way over some of the top offensive linemen in the country.
    Schneider told ESPN on Saturday: “He had a great Senior Bowl down there. Tough, competitive guy.
    He’s got that chip on his shoulder. Real heavy hands, powerful pass rusher. We were really excited to get him in the mix here. He just fits us -- our culture, what we’re doing here.”


    I'm anxious to see what happens.
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  • Not too pleased with the LJ Collier pick, I disliked him as a player even before he was drafted. I watched some of him while he was in college and I wasn't too happy when his name got brought up. I figured he might be a target for the Seahawks though.

    The thing that stuck out to me about Collier is he was very slow off of the line. He was very bad at anticipating snaps and his burst seemed very limited. In comparison to somebody like Bennett who was very quick off of the line, sometimes to our detriment. Collier also really only had one move in his repertoire. Another thing that stuck out to me is he really didn't have a great change of direction. Collier looked very stiff and really wasn't good at changing direction unlike many of the elites.

    I'm not really feeling like he's going to be a difference maker. Now, I understand that GM's and coaches don't take players for what they were in college necessarily, they take them for what they can become in the pros. Collier to me baffled me because it bucked the Carroll trends. He is a player with a smaller upside, and really poor athletic profile for a Carroll pick. The Collier pick really reminded me more of a Tim Ruskell pick than anything. I'm not confident in his future, but we'll see what Carroll has in store here. It could be that I'm totally of base here.
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  • Fade wrote:Duh, base 5T is a runstuffers role.

    Keeps Rasheem fresh to rush the passer.


    This is the answer right here. Collier is likely the better run stopping 5T on the team. Green can come in on passing downs and Collier can move inside to the DT role next to Reed.
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  • Via Pete's Presser:

    - Collier in better shape than last year, 100% healthy. Stronger and faster. Seeing him play closer to his potential in camp.

    - Ankle injury last year made it so we "didn't really see him" accurately last year.

    - Love his high motor and length.

    - Says he earned the starting spot.

    Edit: Adding Gregg Bell tweet to corroborate. Adding to notes that LJ has lost weight, which is cool. We may see him considerably more explosive, and able to anchor. I suspect his issues with being knocked over had something to do with his ankle not allowing him to forcefully plant, taking his leverage away.

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  • olyfan63 wrote:-snip-
    Does anyone think Collier looks like an NFL star instead of like a stiff in this 2018 game vs. Texas? Please educate the doubters on why, and what an NFL scout would take away from this game.

    Grahamhawker wrote:Does he look like a star from that single game tape? I'd have to say no, but that would be a minimal analysis at best.

    It seems like most of the pre-draft scouting reports on Collier were pretty consistent with what you mentioned.

    I surmise they like how his versatility, good hand fighting, effort and attitude could develop into an inside pass rush specialist ala Mike Bennett, but I think we'd have to hear from Pete and John to know exactly what they saw/see in him. Some notes on their views here: https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/big-12/texas-christian-university/article229765284.html.
    Highlights:
    "L.J. Collier had an impressive senior season at TCU, taking full advantage of becoming a full-time starter by earning All-Big 12 honors. But Collier really started standing out to NFL teams at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, Alabama in late January, bull rushing his way over some of the top offensive linemen in the country.
    Schneider told ESPN on Saturday: “He had a great Senior Bowl down there. Tough, competitive guy.
    He’s got that chip on his shoulder. Real heavy hands, powerful pass rusher. We were really excited to get him in the mix here. He just fits us -- our culture, what we’re doing here.”


    I'm anxious to see what happens.


    Thanks for the info and links! I went through about 4 or 5 games of Collier's 2018 college film. The Texas game was the least impressive, but none of the other ones I saw seemed that much much better. Texas Tech, Iowa State, he looked a little better, but not much.
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:Via Pete's Presser:

    - Collier in better shape than last year, 100% healthy. Stronger and faster. Seeing him play closer to his potential in camp.

    - Ankle injury last year made it so we "didn't really see him" accurately last year.

    - Love his high motor and length.

    - Says he earned the starting spot.

    Edit: Adding Gregg Bell tweet to corroborate. Adding to notes that LJ has lost weight, which is cool. We may see him considerably more explosive, and able to anchor. I suspect his issues with being knocked over had something to do with his ankle not allowing him to forcefully plant, taking his leverage away.

    They also mentioned on the radio broadcast that Rasheem had a little bit of a shoulder issue he was nursing. It wasn’t enough to keep him from playing though.
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  • Collier had one very athletic play hurdling the cut block to get to Matt Ryan for the sack/10yd grounding. He didn't get a lot of playtime and I was a little surprised to see Moore get so many of his snaps.
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  • I think the first game was a bit of a preseason test with a heavy rotation of Collier, Moore and Green to see where they fit in situations. I think Collier had a nice game and flashed a bit early. Green was invisible other then one decent run stop. Moore also didn't flash much.

    I think the Hawks will figure out these guys role as the season goes on. But I haven't seen enough from Green to suggest he should be a clear starter over Collier. He's a 3rd rounder for a reason and it's clear part of that is consistent motor. I think they liked Collier because he doesn't take plays off.
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  • Mad Dog wrote:I think the first game was a bit of a preseason test with a heavy rotation of Collier, Moore and Green to see where they fit in situations. I think Collier had a nice game and flashed a bit early. Green was invisible other then one decent run stop. Moore also didn't flash much.

    I think the Hawks will figure out these guys role as the season goes on. But I haven't seen enough from Green to suggest he should be a clear starter over Collier. He's a 3rd rounder for a reason and it's clear part of that is consistent motor. I think they liked Collier because he doesn't take plays off.
    Not taking plays off is a great trait, he didn't embarrass himself in the first game as starter, let's hope he improves from here as confidence grows. Hope he gets lots of QB hurries and 4-6 sacks by the end of the season.

    Green is increasingly have that rotational player going.

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    Last edited by toffee on Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • Mad Dog wrote:I think the first game was a bit of a preseason test with a heavy rotation of Collier, Moore and Green to see where they fit in situations. I think Collier had a nice game and flashed a bit early. Green was invisible other then one decent run stop. Moore also didn't flash much.

    I think the Hawks will figure out these guys role as the season goes on. But I haven't seen enough from Green to suggest he should be a clear starter over Collier. He's a 3rd rounder for a reason and it's clear part of that is consistent motor. I think they liked Collier because he doesn't take plays off.


    Griffin was a 3rd rounder, Sherm a 5th Rounder, Kam a 5th rounder, Russell Wilson a 3rd rounder, John Randall Undrafted.

    Measurables are nice, but heart still can't be measured.
    chris98251
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  • Collier had a few really bright moments Sunday. I don't know if he was credited with a sack on the play where he had Ryan in the grasp and Ryan intentionally grounded the ball, but he sure should have been. Loss of down and -10 yards is a sack play any way you look at it.
    Appyhawk
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  • Appyhawk wrote:Collier had a few really bright moments Sunday. I don't know if he was credited with a sack on the play where he had Ryan in the grasp and Ryan intentionally grounded the ball, but he sure should have been. Loss of down and -10 yards is a sack play any way you look at it.
    It also a matter of adjustment, Falcons made adjustment to Collier ... Now it's time for Collier to learn and advance.

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  • If you done your job well enough to make the defense adjust to you, you've done a good job.
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