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Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)

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Was the 2nd and goal play a catch?

Yes
66
69%
No
29
31%
 
Total votes : 95

Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:35 pm
  • First of all, what a game. What a great freaking win to get this squad to 5-0 for the first time in the history of forever for this franchise. Great job team!

    My question: why wasn't the 2nd and goal throw to DK Metcalf ruled a touchdown?
    He had possession, two feet in the endzone, then the ball gets jarred loose.
    I mean, how doesn't that even warrant a booth review?
    I recall a play a few seasons ago when Wilson threw it to a receiver (Moore?) Who caught it, two feet down, then gets hit and the ball popped loose. They called it incomplete on the field, Carroll challenged it and they overruled it and called it a catch.

    Thankfully it all worked out, and in our favor as more time eventually came off the clock before the crucial 4th and goal catch by DK.

    What are your thoughts? Was that a catch?

    The play I'm talking about is at 13:05

    Last edited by Jerhawk on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:37 pm
  • A perfect example of a misinterpretation of rules. Since DK was in the end zone and caught the ball established control and was in bounds, the play is over. The defender came over afterwards and punched it out after he was out of bounds. Again plays over.
    I can understand maintaining control to the ground when the ball is in the field of play. He had control while in bounds. Reminds me of loop hole crap attorneys use to get the guilty out of trouble. Things like this are dishonest and what the English call “Bad form”.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:57 pm
  • Agree. It worked out like it should. Less time left for Minnesota to have.
    evergreen
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  • Based upon the ruling in the 2011 AFC title game between NE/BAL, where a Ravens receiver clearly caught the ball and had full possession/control (he was basically standing still) for a split second before a Patriots defender punched it out of his hands, I'm going to say no. That was a completely BS call. Since the league was apparently OK with it, then that's where we are with this play, which was far less definitive.
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  • I doubt they would have overturned it anyway, but I don’t get why there was no booth review.
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  • It would be an incomplete pass anywhere else on the field, so no TD for me.
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  • IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.
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  • themunn wrote:It would be an incomplete pass anywhere else on the field, so no TD for me.


    The rules for a catch actually do change a bit in the endzone, so this opinion above is misguided.
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  • TreeRon wrote:IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.



    I was wondering about that last Cousin's pass as well.. Watching the replay, you could clearly see his arm getting hit by the defender before.. moments before his arm starts the forward motion. Perhaps it's like catching the ball, need control of it and if the defender hinders the pass before the arms going forward, it's a fumble? IDK, I was really surprised it wasn't over turned.
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  • I don't know what the rules currently say on this, but I want the rules to consider that an incomplete pass. It didn't look like or feel like a catch.
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  • TreeRon wrote:IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.



    DK caught it, made a football move by getting both feet in, then it got knocked out of hus hands.

    That last play was a incomplete pass, but with 1-2 seconds left. Cousins wasn't throwing a Fluttie miracle in that rain. So in reality it didn't really matter what they called, it made no difference in the outcome.
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  • TreeRon wrote:IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.

    I think you are wrong in both cases. JMO based on how I saw it.
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  • I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.

    The 2 attempts by Cousins where he lost possession of the ball prior to his arm going into forward motion were too close to call without slow motion replay. The first was caused by the ball getting knocked from his hand, so that one is easier, and should have been a TD for us. Luckily we converted anyway.
    Crazy game start to finish.... like most of our games seem to be for last 2 years.
    Appyhawk
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  • HawkStrong wrote:
    themunn wrote:It would be an incomplete pass anywhere else on the field, so no TD for me.


    The rules for a catch actually do change a bit in the endzone, so this opinion above is misguided.


    In what way though? The NFL official rules say this:

    A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is inbounds:

    a. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

    b. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

    c. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.


    I don't see the football move (in this case, a tuck, or maintaining control throughout). As announcers would say it was a "Bang bang" play - for me Metcalf doesn't hold onto it long enough for it to be a football move.
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  • Appyhawk wrote:I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.


    That's not the rule though. The rule is he has to maintain possession to the ground, and he didn't.

    This is the Calvin Johnson rule that the league changed in 2010 after a very controversial call with Johnson in the end zone.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/949 ... hange-most

    The old rule was two feet in the end zone with possession was a TD. Now it's possession all the way to the ground. DK lost the ball on the ground. No TD.
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  • It definitely wasn't a TD. You have to complete the catch through the process of going to the ground.
    nanomoz
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  • DK lost control of the ball AFTER HE TRAVELED OUT OF BOUNDS. He took two steps (that is a football move) after tucking the ball and before going out. TD.
    Appyhawk
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  • Appyhawk wrote:DK lost control of the ball AFTER HE TRAVELED OUT OF BOUNDS. He took two steps (that is a football move) after tucking the ball and before going out. TD.


    It doesn't matter if he ran all the way into the stands and fell down, he still has to maintain control of the ball to the ground. In bounds, out of bounds, doesn't matter.

    This is a very clear rule now, there is no gray area. So you can not like it, but that's the rule.....and IMO it's a much better rule than it used to be. Too many controversial catch/non catches before this new rule.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Appyhawk wrote:I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.


    That's not the rule though. The rule is he has to maintain possession to the ground, and he didn't.

    This is the Calvin Johnson rule that the league changed in 2010 after a very controversial call with Johnson in the end zone.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/949 ... hange-most

    The old rule was two feet in the end zone with possession was a TD. Now it's possession all the way to the ground. DK lost the ball on the ground. No TD.



    The Calvin Johnson rule does not exist any more. The league changed the catch rule in 2018 in order to simply it and make it easier for the officials. Here is a summary of the new rule. There is nothing in the rule about going to the ground or all the way through the ground that was the result of the Calvin Johnson touchdown/ non-touchdown.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... atch-rule/
    Frozenropers
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  • Frozenropers wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Appyhawk wrote:I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.


    That's not the rule though. The rule is he has to maintain possession to the ground, and he didn't.

    This is the Calvin Johnson rule that the league changed in 2010 after a very controversial call with Johnson in the end zone.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/949 ... hange-most

    The old rule was two feet in the end zone with possession was a TD. Now it's possession all the way to the ground. DK lost the ball on the ground. No TD.



    The Calvin Johnson rule does not exist any more. The league changed the catch rule in 2018 in order to simply it and make it easier for the officials. Here is a summary of the new rule. There is nothing in the rule about going to the ground or all the way through the ground that was the result of the Calvin Johnson touchdown/ non-touchdown.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... atch-rule/


    It's the same rule, they just clarified the ground part.

    The NFL rules state that a player going to the ground while attempting to make a catch must maintain control of the ball throughout the process before hitting the ground. ... If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete


    Again, can't lose control of the ball to the ground.

    Yes, DK can lose control of the ball, but he also must regain control after hitting the ground. He did not.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Appyhawk wrote:DK lost control of the ball AFTER HE TRAVELED OUT OF BOUNDS. He took two steps (that is a football move) after tucking the ball and before going out. TD.


    It doesn't matter if he ran all the way into the stands and fell down, he still has to maintain control of the ball to the ground. In bounds, out of bounds, doesn't matter.

    This is a very clear rule now, there is no gray area. So you can not like it, but that's the rule.....and IMO it's a much better rule than it used to be. Too many controversial catch/non catches before this new rule.


    What if the receiver never "goes to the ground" at all because you aren't tackled? How long is possession before it gets knocked out?
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  • Ad Hawk wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Appyhawk wrote:DK lost control of the ball AFTER HE TRAVELED OUT OF BOUNDS. He took two steps (that is a football move) after tucking the ball and before going out. TD.


    It doesn't matter if he ran all the way into the stands and fell down, he still has to maintain control of the ball to the ground. In bounds, out of bounds, doesn't matter.

    This is a very clear rule now, there is no gray area. So you can not like it, but that's the rule.....and IMO it's a much better rule than it used to be. Too many controversial catch/non catches before this new rule.


    What if the receiver never "goes to the ground" at all because you aren't tackled? How long is possession before it gets knocked out?


    Then it falls under the "football move" catch rule, just as if he's in the field of play. Did he maintain possession enough to make a football move through the act of the catch.

    But that's not what happened, he went to the ground and lost possession. So either he has to maintain possession, or regain possession after losing it..........he did neither.

    This was not a hard call, the rule is very clear now.
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  • I thought it was a catch, DK had control of the ball and made a football move stepping further into the end zone, then he was hammered by their S and the ball was knocked out. What was surprising was there was no automatic review of a potential scoring play within 2 minutes of the end of the game. Any explanation of why not from the NFL would be appreciated to understand the rules better. I think the referees screwed up and also miscalled the final play of the game, it was an incomplete pass.
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  • At first glance, I admit it looked like DK held it long enough for a catch -- but on the replay, it showed he was bobbling the ball and didn't have full possession, even before he went out of bounds.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:10 am
  • My thought at the time was it was incomplete. After looking at it again just now....I'm thinking it was complete.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:32 am
  • Thought it was incomplete live and on replay that is confirmed.

    2 feet down but DK does not perform a football move so the catch is not complete before the ball is knocked out of his hands. Bang bang play and great effort by defense.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:34 am
  • It's my understanding that once that ball crosses the first centimeter of that goal line with posession the play is over. Touchdown.

    That should have been the game winning TD.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:38 am
  • Aros wrote:It's my understanding that once that ball crosses the first centimeter of that goal line with posession the play is over. Touchdown.

    That should have been the game winning TD.



    I think (could very well be wrong) that applies to a ball carrier but not a receiver catching a pass.

    The possession is the point of contention on a ball thrown into the end zone.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:47 am
  • Hawkpower wrote:
    Aros wrote:It's my understanding that once that ball crosses the first centimeter of that goal line with posession the play is over. Touchdown.

    That should have been the game winning TD.



    I think (could very well be wrong) that applies to a ball carrier but not a receiver catching a pass.

    The possession is the point of contention on a ball thrown into the end zone.


    This is correct. It is simple issue of runner vs receiver. A runner has already gained control and Therefore only needs to break the plane.

    A receiver needs 2 feet and a football move to complete the catch, this didnt happen here, so it’s not a TD
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:51 am
  • If a player is catching the ball in the endzone then it is a touchdown the moment they complete the catch. The rules on that are the same as if the ball was at midfield; it requires securing the ball, two feet in bounds, and then a football move.

    Here are the specifics of the "football move" rule: "any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so."

    DK didn't do any of these and therefore it was not a catch, and therefore it was not a touchdown.

    I suspect the 70% of people responding to this poll who are wrong are probably getting confused because it's different when players are running the ball in. They already have possession so they just need to touch the goal line or pylon for an instant score and it doesn't matter if they fumble after that. If you are catching a ball in the endzone then you need to go through the entire process the same as you would on the 20 yard line.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:08 pm
  • I don't know enough about the TD to give an opinion on it, we need better views.

    The last play of the game I thought was a incomplete pass and if I was a vikings fan I would be kind of pissed the ref's took their last chance away. If the ref's had called it a incomplete pass on the field I doubt many would have disagreed at the time.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:27 pm
  • Whether or not it was, I'm glad we didn't score there, allowing us to burn 13 more seconds.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm
  • Followthelegion wrote:
    Hawkpower wrote:
    Aros wrote:It's my understanding that once that ball crosses the first centimeter of that goal line with posession the play is over. Touchdown.

    That should have been the game winning TD.



    I think (could very well be wrong) that applies to a ball carrier but not a receiver catching a pass.

    The possession is the point of contention on a ball thrown into the end zone.


    This is correct. It is simple issue of runner vs receiver. A runner has already gained control and Therefore only needs to break the plane.

    A receiver needs 2 feet and a football move to complete the catch, this didnt happen here, so it’s not a TD


    Good points. I didn't consider RB vs WR in regards to the rule.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:29 pm
  • Simple solution, and I'm sure DK would agree. The receiver has to hang on to the ball. :229031_shrug:
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:39 pm
  • Absolutely a TD.
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Re: Was the 2nd and goal play a TD? (Poll)
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:59 pm
  • Simply yes, there was a catch, two feet down, a football move, and then it gets knocked out. By rule that's a catch.

    Also, the next down it looked like DK was interfered with on the fade, another missed call.
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  • Maulbert wrote:Whether or not it was, I'm glad we didn't score there, allowing us to burn 13 more seconds.


    That's how situationally aware DK is. He knew that he'd get two more cracks at it, so he dropped the ball on purpose to assure less time on the clock.....and it was the difference between winning and losing.

    Dude's good.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:Whether or not it was, I'm glad we didn't score there, allowing us to burn 13 more seconds.


    That's how situationally aware DK is. He knew that he'd get two more cracks at it, so he dropped the ball on purpose to assure less time on the clock.....and it was the difference between winning and losing.

    Dude's good.


    He's next level clutch :irishdrinkers:
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Frozenropers wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Appyhawk wrote:I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.


    That's not the rule though. The rule is he has to maintain possession to the ground, and he didn't.

    This is the Calvin Johnson rule that the league changed in 2010 after a very controversial call with Johnson in the end zone.

    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/949 ... hange-most

    The old rule was two feet in the end zone with possession was a TD. Now it's possession all the way to the ground. DK lost the ball on the ground. No TD.



    The Calvin Johnson rule does not exist any more. The league changed the catch rule in 2018 in order to simply it and make it easier for the officials. Here is a summary of the new rule. There is nothing in the rule about going to the ground or all the way through the ground that was the result of the Calvin Johnson touchdown/ non-touchdown.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spo ... atch-rule/


    It's the same rule, they just clarified the ground part.

    The NFL rules state that a player going to the ground while attempting to make a catch must maintain control of the ball throughout the process before hitting the ground. ... If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete


    Again, can't lose control of the ball to the ground.

    Yes, DK can lose control of the ball, but he also must regain control after hitting the ground. He did not.



    Those are 2 different things. The going to the ground part of the rule (the calvin johnson rule) was taken out a couple years ago. That had to do with a player not losing control of the ball while falling down, regardless of whether the ball touches the ground during the process of going to the ground.

    The part of the rule you quoted is in reference to a player trying to maintain possession when the ball actually touches the ground prior to completing the catch. Say on a diving catch, the ground causes the ball to move in the receivers hands then it's not a catch vs. if the ball touches the ground but the receiver maintained control then it is a catch. It also applies to when the ball gets bobbled around like the jermaine kearse catch in the GB game...he lost control but regained it and the ball never touched the ground.

    https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-teams-unanimously-approve-simplified-catch-rule-0ap3000000923342

    The question on the DK play is whether or not he made a move common to the game after getting 2 feet in the end zone. I thought it looked like he tucked it to his stomach right as it got punched out so I thought it could have been ruled a catch. Interesting that the official who was about 4 feet away called it a TD, while the official that was way out the back of the end zone came rushing in to change the call, and then they didn't even take the time to review it. Even if they had reviewed it, I'm certain it wouldn't have gotten overturned.
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  • My first reaction was that it was a TD. The going to the ground rule doesn't exist in the endzone anymore, control and two feet and it should be a catch. The official right beside him initially called it a TD.

    I mean they have to draw the line somewhere, DK's first TD he just kind of caught it, rolled over and whipped the ball into the stands all in one motion. By the absolute letter of the law (or at least the old rules) that could be ruled incomplete as well.
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  • Appyhawk wrote:I'm with you Jerhawk. DK caught it, broke the plane, and did not lose control until he was out of bounds. TD.

    The 2 attempts by Cousins where he lost possession of the ball prior to his arm going into forward motion were too close to call without slow motion replay. The first was caused by the ball getting knocked from his hand, so that one is easier, and should have been a TD for us. Luckily we converted anyway.
    Crazy game start to finish.... like most of our games seem to be for last 2 years.

    I said this in gameday chat..There is no more tuck rule which is exactly what those two plays looked like.
    They were fumbles no doubt in my mind.
    DK's catch was a TD..I don't understand what sport some people think they are watching
    but when you break the goal line with complete control with both feet on ground..
    It is a TD..That defender coming up doing what he did shouldn't make one bit of difference.
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  • It should of been called a TD.

    All scoring plays get reviewed.

    Go from there, and after review the call stands in my opinion
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  • That was the other thing, I don't know why it wasn't reviewed. Does Pete get a penalty if he throws the red flag to make a point?
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  • I don't think it was. Yes, the ball breaks the plane, but that's before he gets both feet down and establishes the catch.
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  • Lol... love all the person opinions on if they think it was or wasn’t a TD, me? IDGAF lol, why? Because it’s they’re paid to no me. Secondly, college and even through out the nfl you see dudes the minute they break the plan toss that ball or spike it or drop it.

    Oh and like hell on the whole “it doesn’t matter if he runs all the way to wall he has to keep it” $h!t. Cool so by your adenine definition and understanding that would negate 99% of the Touchdowns in the NFL when receivers, Rbs, TEs get in the end zone and then immediately toss the boss away into the stands etc etc etc.
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  • TreeRon wrote:IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.


    How? He had control throughout and the ball never touched the ground, that was 100% a catch
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  • Ambrose83 wrote:
    TreeRon wrote:IMO, it was a TD. I also believe the last play of the game was an incomplete pass as well.


    How? He had control throughout and the ball never touched the ground, that was 100% a catch


    He's talking about the very last play, the Cousins pass ruled a fumble.
    potatohead33
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  • Caught the ball, both feet down, CLEARLY in the end zone. Then it come out. They didn't even bother looking at it, and that's after one of the officials put up the TD celebration. Total BS. Russ had to throw two game winning touchdowns basically. There's absolutely no excuse to not look at that before going on to the next play. Touchdown.
    SoulfishHawk
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  • Aros wrote:It's my understanding that once that ball crosses the first centimeter of that goal line with posession the play is over. Touchdown.

    That should have been the game winning TD.


    I struggled with this as well.
    I felt the exact same way.

    It does appear that this is true with a player running, walking, or jumping into the end zone.
    It doesn’t seem to apply if the ball is thrown.
    pmedic920
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