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They're Getting Pressure on the QB

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They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:47 pm
  • They're getting pressure on the QB. They just have bass-ackwards principles on the backend. They play outside leverage 7-15 yards off the LoS. Slants, crossers, and, hitches, are always open due to this style choice.

    This isn't a this year problem, either. The is what they started doing since showing Richard the door and made the switch to Norton.

    Opposing QBs get far too many easy, pitch and catch throws. Yay, you didn't get roasted for the TD over the top, but you just gave up the easy first down, and can't get off the field to save your life.

    The Seahawks have long, physical corners that they should be pressing, with inside leverage, forcing throws over the top where their length can be a factor. If you want to play off-coverage then get smaller, quicker, more agile corners that can play that style.

    Until that changes it won't matter who they got rushing the passer. Opposing teams are going to continue to feast in the passing game, regardless, as they have been for YEARS under Ken Norton's watch. This is not a new problem, Quinn can fix this. He played more press coverage in his 2 years as DC, than all other PC-DCs, in Seattle combined.

    Quinn was terrible in ATL you say?

    My retort to that would be, look at Pete right now here in SEA, a tremendous, defensive head coach who has a terrible defense. Quinn wasn't the DC in ATL, he was the head coach. Those are two different jobs, that require two different skill sets. Gus Bradley was terrible in JAX as a head coach, doing very well again as a DC with the Chargers. Some guys are just good coordinators. Bring back Quinn!

    Realistically, I don't see Pete demoting Norton, though. Think about it. He isn't going to walk into Norton's office and be like "I know we're 5-0, but we're bringing in Quinn, so can you please head to the LBer meeting room?"

    I mean, that is what should happen. They're on a bye week, which makes it even easier to transition. At the very least bring Quinn onboard as a consultant. But no, Pete is going to continue to ride with his buddy, we're screwed on that side of the ball. The defense is going to keep getting worse like it has been (going on 7 consecutive seasons.) Russ and the Offense are going to have to carry this thing.

    There is hope. The 2018 Chiefs were really, really bad on defense and almost made and won the Superbowl that year. If not for Dee Ford lining up offsides in the AFC Championship Game, when they all but had that game won.

    ==========

    And on a final note:

    Pete is going to kill his defense if he keeps playing this style. I know he doesn't like it, but they are going to have to play more aggressive, and take more chances, which can potentially lead to giving up more big plays, and TDs. But the alternative is having the defense on the field for 70-80 plays a game, and they all get injured. Pick your poison, Pete.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:57 pm
  • This is a terrible defense and it is very likely forced on us by Pete.

    Norton was horrible anyway. Not sure that would matter.

    (Quinn could fix this.

    Bradley had the same players and never fielded as good a defense.)

    The problem is will Pete bother to change since we are 'winning'? Likely not.

    It took Wilson literally threatening Pete and the FO for Pete to change the offense.

    We don't have anyone on defense that can threaten Pete. So we are probably stuck with it.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:15 am
  • Fade..You among others wanted more $$$ to the offense
    and that's what happened..
    I'm not saying the talent isn't there on D but it's not close
    to previous LOB years..
    It's going to take awhile for guys to become seasoned and
    they still will have to recycle players in certain spots till they
    find a good one but good depth on a budget?
    that is going to be difficult.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:11 am
  • Fade wrote:They're getting pressure on the QB. They just have bass-ackwards principles on the backend. They play outside leverage 7-15 yards off the LoS. Slants, crossers, and, hitches, are always open due to this style choice.

    This isn't a this year problem, either. The is what they started doing since showing Richard the door and made the switch to Norton.

    Opposing QBs get far too many easy, pitch and catch throws. Yay, you didn't get roasted for the TD over the top, but you just gave up the easy first down, and can't get off the field to save your life.

    The Seahawks have long, physical corners that they should be pressing, with inside leverage, forcing throws over the top where their length can be a factor. If you want to play off-coverage then get smaller, quicker, more agile corners that can play that style.

    Until that changes it won't matter who they got rushing the passer. Opposing teams are going to continue to feast in the passing game, regardless, as they have been for YEARS under Ken Norton's watch. This is not a new problem, Quinn can fix this. He played more press coverage in his 2 years as DC, than all other PC-DCs, in Seattle combined.

    Quinn was terrible in ATL you say?

    My retort to that would be, look at Pete right now here in SEA, a tremendous, defensive head coach who has a terrible defense. Quinn wasn't the DC in ATL, he was the head coach. Those are two different jobs, that require two different skill sets. Gus Bradley was terrible in JAX as a head coach, doing very well again as a DC with the Chargers. Some guys are just good coordinators. Bring back Quinn!

    Realistically, I don't see Pete demoting Norton, though. Think about it. He isn't going to walk into Norton's office and be like "I know we're 5-0, but we're bringing in Quinn, so can you please head to the LBer meeting room?"

    I mean, that is what should happen. They're on a bye week, which makes it even easier to transition. At the very least bring Quinn onboard as a consultant. But no, Pete is going to continue to ride with his buddy, we're screwed on that side of the ball. The defense is going to keep getting worse like it has been (going on 7 consecutive seasons.) Russ and the Offense are going to have to carry this thing.

    There is hope. The 2018 Chiefs were really, really bad on defense and almost made and won the Superbowl that year. If not for Dee Ford lining up offsides in the AFC Championship Game, when they all but had that game won.

    ==========

    And on a final note:

    Pete is going to kill his defense if he keeps playing this style. I know he doesn't like it, but they are going to have to play more aggressive, and take more chances, which can potentially lead to giving up more big plays, and TDs. But the alternative is having the defense on the field for 70-80 plays a game, and they all get injured. Pick your poison, Pete.


    This is exactly my point. Look at Spags Chiefs DC, he was a Horrible head coach for the Rams, but he's a good DC. Norton isn't a DC he's a position coach and Quinn isn't a HC he's a D-coord. It isn't out of reality to bring Quinn in at some capacity. If this team is serious about getting deep into the playoffs and even winning a SB, they need to do the right thing and make Quinn the DC tomorrow. We will not win a SB with this current D. it just wont happen. Making the switch can't hurt, hell we're already giving up freaking 500 yards a game, it can't get any worse, and Quinn is a CLEAR upgrade over Norton and no one will convince me otherwise. Nothing is fair in this life, and Pete needs to stop being friends with these coaches and start thinking business. He doesn't want to demote Norton, why? because they are buddies. Do the right thing Seattle
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:45 am
  • TwistedHusky wrote:This is a terrible defense and it is very likely forced on us by Pete.

    Norton was horrible anyway. Not sure that would matter.

    (Quinn could fix this.

    Bradley had the same players and never fielded as good a defense.)

    The problem is will Pete bother to change since we are 'winning'? Likely not.

    It took Wilson literally threatening Pete and the FO for Pete to change the offense.

    We don't have anyone on defense that can threaten Pete. So we are probably stuck with it.


    Quinn had a year old and more experienced roster, ohh and also added a couple guys named Michael Bennett and Cliff Averill who weren't bad. Imagine Clemons and Irvin being your 3rd and 4th best pass rusher oppose to 1 and 2.

    Quinn also had 2nd and 3rd year Russell Wilson who was much better then rookie Russell Wilson.

    Quinn might be better then Noron but at the same time the best player on this defense (Adams) probably doesn't even start on the 13 team and if he does it's over Kam.

    Regarless Quinn isn't taking over but maybe he comes in and helps in some form.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:46 am
  • I also thought the pass defense was fine tonight, the run defense on the other hand was the problem
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:43 pm
  • Snacks, Bullard, and Moore have been solid adds on the DL. I think we are getting better on the DL front and are not as bad as people think.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:50 pm
  • Good to see someone bring some tangible criticism against Norton.

    Pretty sure nobody else had any idea how to look at the tape and break down the problems.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 2:55 pm
  • getnasty wrote:Quinn might be better then Noron


    Was that on purpose?
    Some might call it Freudian.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:00 pm
  • Bradley had those same players as Quinn.

    He did not do nearly as well.

    The narrative that this was just Quinn having amazing players is laughable. Quinn had amazing players. So did Gus.

    Quinn turned them into one of the best defenses of all time. Gus made us break many many TV remotes (back when people used those)

    Also, plenty of fantastic DCs were failed HCs. Not sure how being fired as a HC is relevant.

    Would Quinn be better than Norton? Of course.

    Norton is historically bad (as a DC). Quinn was historically great (as a DC).
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:09 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Bradley had those same players as Quinn.

    He did not do nearly as well.

    The narrative that this was just Quinn having amazing players is laughable. Quinn had amazing players. So did Gus.

    Quinn turned them into one of the best defenses of all time. Gus made us break many many TV remotes (back when people used those)

    Also, plenty of fantastic DCs were failed HCs. Not sure how being fired as a HC is relevant.

    Would Quinn be better than Norton? Of course.

    Norton is historically bad (as a DC). Quinn was historically great (as a DC).


    Bradley took one of the worst units in the league and by the time he left it was the top scoring defense in 2012.

    Under Quinn we added the missing pieces in Bennett and Avril, but had we those players under Bradley I'm certain we would have seen the same result.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:28 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Bradley had those same players as Quinn.

    He did not do nearly as well.

    The narrative that this was just Quinn having amazing players is laughable. Quinn had amazing players. So did Gus.

    Quinn turned them into one of the best defenses of all time. Gus made us break many many TV remotes (back when people used those)

    Also, plenty of fantastic DCs were failed HCs. Not sure how being fired as a HC is relevant.

    Would Quinn be better than Norton? Of course.

    Norton is historically bad (as a DC). Quinn was historically great (as a DC).


    Bradley didn't have the prime pass rushers Quinn did, and he still got the defense to #3 DVOA pass-ranked and #4 scoring defense in the league.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:58 pm
  • IndyHawk wrote:Fade..You among others wanted more $$$ to the offense
    and that's what happened..
    I'm not saying the talent isn't there on D but it's not close
    to previous LOB years..
    It's going to take awhile for guys to become seasoned and
    they still will have to recycle players in certain spots till they
    find a good one but good depth on a budget?
    that is going to be difficult.


    They don't need to be LOB level though?

    They had $60M+ in 2020 cap space, they were not on a budget, comparatively speaking. They blew it on a dozen JAGs. I was calling for a stud OT, 2 very good to great pass rushers, a CB, and maybe take a luxury on a WR/TE if they have some money leftover. Quality over quantity. I plugged the numbers in and showed how it would work in a previous thread recently… https://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=166781&p=2467472#p2467472

    Oh, wait… aren't you the guy who wanted to trade Russell Wilson to save cap space? :D :D :D :D :D

    I'm sure another $30M to spend on JAGs with $20M of that going to a JAG at QB to replace Wilson, would put the Seahawks in a much better position going forward. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:33 pm
  • Fade wrote:They're getting pressure on the QB. They just have bass-ackwards principles on the backend. They play outside leverage 7-15 yards off the LoS. Slants, crossers, and, hitches, are always open due to this style choice.

    This isn't a this year problem, either. The is what they started doing since showing Richard the door and made the switch to Norton.

    Opposing QBs get far too many easy, pitch and catch throws. Yay, you didn't get roasted for the TD over the top, but you just gave up the easy first down, and can't get off the field to save your life.

    The Seahawks have long, physical corners that they should be pressing, with inside leverage, forcing throws over the top where their length can be a factor. If you want to play off-coverage then get smaller, quicker, more agile corners that can play that style.

    Until that changes it won't matter who they got rushing the passer. Opposing teams are going to continue to feast in the passing game, regardless, as they have been for YEARS under Ken Norton's watch. This is not a new problem, Quinn can fix this. He played more press coverage in his 2 years as DC, than all other PC-DCs, in Seattle combined.

    Quinn was terrible in ATL you say?

    My retort to that would be, look at Pete right now here in SEA, a tremendous, defensive head coach who has a terrible defense. Quinn wasn't the DC in ATL, he was the head coach. Those are two different jobs, that require two different skill sets. Gus Bradley was terrible in JAX as a head coach, doing very well again as a DC with the Chargers. Some guys are just good coordinators. Bring back Quinn!

    Realistically, I don't see Pete demoting Norton, though. Think about it. He isn't going to walk into Norton's office and be like "I know we're 5-0, but we're bringing in Quinn, so can you please head to the LBer meeting room?"

    I mean, that is what should happen. They're on a bye week, which makes it even easier to transition. At the very least bring Quinn onboard as a consultant. But no, Pete is going to continue to ride with his buddy, we're screwed on that side of the ball. The defense is going to keep getting worse like it has been (going on 7 consecutive seasons.) Russ and the Offense are going to have to carry this thing.

    There is hope. The 2018 Chiefs were really, really bad on defense and almost made and won the Superbowl that year. If not for Dee Ford lining up offsides in the AFC Championship Game, when they all but had that game won.

    ==========

    And on a final note:

    Pete is going to kill his defense if he keeps playing this style. I know he doesn't like it, but they are going to have to play more aggressive, and take more chances, which can potentially lead to giving up more big plays, and TDs. But the alternative is having the defense on the field for 70-80 plays a game, and they all get injured. Pick your poison, Pete.


    I tend to agree, especially the last part. This is the softest Seahawk's zone we have ever seen.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:30 pm
  • Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:57 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    We know this can not be the case! It is ALL Nortons fault, if he was not our coach we would only have 150 yards a game against us RIGHT!!!!! You guys amaze me. I do not know why we have not hired Peter Olsen as the DC. We would be awesome if we did!!! :141847_bnono:
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:16 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    I think you are probably correct here but given the results it isn't working and as we enter the meat of our schedule it has to tighten up. I'm not blaming anyone in particular, that would be naive, it's a whole host of things.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:55 pm
  • Fade wrote:They're getting pressure on the QB. They just have bass-ackwards principles on the backend. They play outside leverage 7-15 yards off the LoS. Slants, crossers, and, hitches, are always open due to this style choice.

    This isn't a this year problem, either. The is what they started doing since showing Richard the door and made the switch to Norton.

    Opposing QBs get far too many easy, pitch and catch throws. Yay, you didn't get roasted for the TD over the top, but you just gave up the easy first down, and can't get off the field to save your life.

    The Seahawks have long, physical corners that they should be pressing, with inside leverage, forcing throws over the top where their length can be a factor. If you want to play off-coverage then get smaller, quicker, more agile corners that can play that style.

    Until that changes it won't matter who they got rushing the passer. Opposing teams are going to continue to feast in the passing game, regardless, as they have been for YEARS under Ken Norton's watch. This is not a new problem, Quinn can fix this. He played more press coverage in his 2 years as DC, than all other PC-DCs, in Seattle combined.

    Quinn was terrible in ATL you say?

    My retort to that would be, look at Pete right now here in SEA, a tremendous, defensive head coach who has a terrible defense. Quinn wasn't the DC in ATL, he was the head coach. Those are two different jobs, that require two different skill sets. Gus Bradley was terrible in JAX as a head coach, doing very well again as a DC with the Chargers. Some guys are just good coordinators. Bring back Quinn!

    Realistically, I don't see Pete demoting Norton, though. Think about it. He isn't going to walk into Norton's office and be like "I know we're 5-0, but we're bringing in Quinn, so can you please head to the LBer meeting room?"

    I mean, that is what should happen. They're on a bye week, which makes it even easier to transition. At the very least bring Quinn onboard as a consultant. But no, Pete is going to continue to ride with his buddy, we're screwed on that side of the ball. The defense is going to keep getting worse like it has been (going on 7 consecutive seasons.) Russ and the Offense are going to have to carry this thing.

    There is hope. The 2018 Chiefs were really, really bad on defense and almost made and won the Superbowl that year. If not for Dee Ford lining up offsides in the AFC Championship Game, when they all but had that game won.

    ==========

    And on a final note:

    Pete is going to kill his defense if he keeps playing this style. I know he doesn't like it, but they are going to have to play more aggressive, and take more chances, which can potentially lead to giving up more big plays, and TDs. But the alternative is having the defense on the field for 70-80 plays a game, and they all get injured. Pick your poison, Pete.


    Great post Fade! I created a very similar post basically making the exact same points as you did here. This is the link if you would like to read it.
    https://seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=167498

    If I had read this thread beforehand, I would not have gone to the trouble because we're basically saying the same thing. Nice to know I have some company in my concerns/frustrations.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:58 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    I appreciate the perspective but I can't buy this. One of the core philosophies of this defense is that it's simple to grasp and that it is based not on complex coverages and alignments, but on a basic, fundamental, aggressive scheme. No gimics, just line up, straight up and play. And the gamble is that our expert execution of a simple scheme will eventually trump the occasionall failure of a more co plex offensive attack. If that's the case, then it doesn't make sense that our guys woukd need a ton of time to get up to speed. I think the issue is an enherant flaw in the scheme. The failures we've been experiencing predate the LOB dismantling. I remember pretty vividly Peyton manning waltzing in here in 2014 or so and for the first time exposing the holes in our zone coverage. It was that year or the year before that we also stopped playing aggressive press coverage. Our CB play actually forced a rules change across the league but rather than adapting to it, we wholesale abandoned the technique. With that we gradually lost our intimidation factor, other teams gradually further exploited the weaknesses in our D, and the slow decline even with the premier players we had, began. That was well before Norton's reign.

    I think our problem is simple, without the players that exactly fit the position profiles this D requires, the answer is to retreat into a strategy that is good enough to limit massive single play losses, but without a splash play, is resigned to at times a death by a thousand cuts reality.

    We need a big body run stuffer ala Red Bryant or Brandon Mebane to negate what the vikings did to us Sunday night without needing to force the backend to play zone. Good news there is that Harrison is on the way.

    We need a pass rush specialist. We aren't bad here but are far from good enough to force opposing offenses to change schematically. Im hopeful the journeyman and rooks can help patch enough pressure together to make it work for the rest ofntye year. We haven't had it, which forces more zone.

    We need safety play that is fast enough and intimidating enough to help to fill the holes in our zone coverages and put fear into the hearts of opposing receivers. I thought Diggs was a bright spot last year but his impact has been less noticeable in 2020. Adams is a huge player here but is borrowed far too often to bring pressure. Pressure up front and solid run stuffing d line play would allow the safeties to play the edges, and our bigger cb's inside leverage. Instead, we default to, youguessed it, zone.

    And as someone posted earlier, we need our corners to play more inside leverage, press coverage. I think getting adams back to strengthen the back end will allow us to do that.

    I think in a nutshell, our defensive scheme can still be successful. But its simplicity requires fairly extreme tradeoffs. Bring adams down to blitz because we can't create pressure otherwise and our corners who are prone to being beat because of hownfar off the los they are, are forced to play a more honest zone. Our bigger corner profile, when we aren't pressing, isn't ideally suited for covering small, fast receivers - so without a strategy to disguise coverages, we retreat to zone. We started the season with a strong commitment to stop the run - again, more zone to keep eyes on the backfield. But our zone has been decoded in the pass game, so without pressure... we constantky give up gap plays 10 yards at a time.

    Pete doesn't believe in smoke and mirrors. He plays it straight up and man up. That scheme needs the big, fast players that made up our D in its heyday. Problem is it will never be that good again because it was new to the league when Pete took over. No one had seen it. Now its known and has been replicated across the league. And unfortunately we don't have those players anymore. Best we can hope for is that Pete gets the guys he needs (and that there are already enough of them on the roster now) to make this thing go.

    Can DQ make a difference? Maybe in getting Pete to disguise things a bit or craft stunts and blitzes that are a bit more effective. But at the end of day, I think it's the scheme, and whether or not we have the players to make it go. Norton, Richard, Quinn... they will all basically be running the same system with all the same buttons and switches. Dont know how much difference it will make.

    Id put more hope in snacks, brooks adams and our journeyman D line guys allowing the scheme to flow than changing the coordinator.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:13 pm
  • Outstanding post Keasley! Completely agree with everything you said.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:40 am
  • keasley45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    I appreciate the perspective but I can't buy this. One of the core philosophies of this defense is that it's simple to grasp and that it is based not on complex coverages and alignments, but on a basic, fundamental, aggressive scheme. No gimics, just line up, straight up and play. And the gamble is that our expert execution of a simple scheme will eventually trump the occasionall failure of a more co plex offensive attack. If that's the case, then it doesn't make sense that our guys woukd need a ton of time to get up to speed. I think the issue is an enherant flaw in the scheme. The failures we've been experiencing predate the LOB dismantling. I remember pretty vividly Peyton manning waltzing in here in 2014 or so and for the first time exposing the holes in our zone coverage. It was that year or the year before that we also stopped playing aggressive press coverage. Our CB play actually forced a rules change across the league but rather than adapting to it, we wholesale abandoned the technique. With that we gradually lost our intimidation factor, other teams gradually further exploited the weaknesses in our D, and the slow decline even with the premier players we had, began. That was well before Norton's reign.


    There's a lot of problems with this post, but I'll settle to addressing the idea that a scheme is just plug-and-play. Every scheme requires some time to adapt and learn in the pros. It might only be a few games, but remember, we've only PLAYED a few games - five - and thanks to injuries to Adams and Dunbar, our intended secondary has been on the field together for even fewer.

    Additionally, this is a COVID offseason where the players have had less time to acclimate to each other than usual, and Quinton Dunbar reported to the team extremely late due to his legal issues. Throw all that in there and yeah, there's every reason to think our defense might be behind schedule figuring things out. They've cited communication issues themselves.

    Finally, though this is kind of tangential to your point, there was no scheme-related slow decline after the Super Bowl. These guys remained the #1 scoring defense pretty much up to the time Earl got injured in 2016.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    I appreciate the perspective but I can't buy this. One of the core philosophies of this defense is that it's simple to grasp and that it is based not on complex coverages and alignments, but on a basic, fundamental, aggressive scheme. No gimics, just line up, straight up and play. And the gamble is that our expert execution of a simple scheme will eventually trump the occasionall failure of a more co plex offensive attack. If that's the case, then it doesn't make sense that our guys woukd need a ton of time to get up to speed. I think the issue is an enherant flaw in the scheme. The failures we've been experiencing predate the LOB dismantling. I remember pretty vividly Peyton manning waltzing in here in 2014 or so and for the first time exposing the holes in our zone coverage. It was that year or the year before that we also stopped playing aggressive press coverage. Our CB play actually forced a rules change across the league but rather than adapting to it, we wholesale abandoned the technique. With that we gradually lost our intimidation factor, other teams gradually further exploited the weaknesses in our D, and the slow decline even with the premier players we had, began. That was well before Norton's reign.


    There's a lot of problems with this post, but I'll settle to addressing the idea that a scheme is just plug-and-play. Every scheme requires some time to adapt and learn in the pros. It might only be a few games, but remember, we've only PLAYED a few games - five - and thanks to injuries to Adams and Dunbar, our intended secondary has been on the field together for even fewer.

    Additionally, this is a COVID offseason where the players have had less time to acclimate to each other than usual, and Quinton Dunbar reported to the team extremely late due to his legal issues. Throw all that in there and yeah, there's every reason to think our defense might be behind schedule figuring things out. They've cited communication issues themselves.

    Finally, though this is kind of tangential to your point, there was no scheme-related slow decline after the Super Bowl. These guys remained the #1 scoring defense pretty much up to the time Earl got injured in 2016.


    Mmmm. The ranking doesn't tell the whole story. The decline in passing yards allowed has been precipitous since 2013. In fact the difference was almost 1000 total yards over that period (2013 to 2016). Point is, the LOB was intact while that was happening. The decline hastened after their departure, but it was there undeniably.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:49 am
  • The only person to blame is Pete. I know people don't like to hear it but this is his defense and he overseas it. He watches the same game tape and can and does, tell Norton and the defense to make changes. Norton is in charge of in game calls but this is all built around Pete and his vision of the defense. The league has adapted on the offensive side of the ball and Pete needs to adapt as well.

    I do think Bullard and hopefully Snacks can help the line moving forward and we contine our trend of giving up less explosive plays but we can't keep letting offenses run 80 plays either.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:50 am
  • Passing Yards allowed
    2013 - 2751
    2014 - 2970
    2015 - 3363
    2016 - 3612 thomas didn't get injured until week 13

    By 2019, passing yards given up rise another 600 yards to 4200. The decline has been constant.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:19 am
  • keasley45 wrote:Passing Yards allowed
    2013 - 2751
    2014 - 2970
    2015 - 3363
    2016 - 3612 thomas didn't get injured until week 13

    By 2019, passing yards given up rise another 500 yards to 4200. The decline has been constant.


    3363 was still good for #2 in the league in 2015.

    The decline has been statistically insignificant and not indicative of any scheme change. They were still a top-flight scoring defense up until Earl was hurt and everyone knew it.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:32 am
  • ...and they are on pace for, what, allowing 7,000+ passing yards this season?

    Pete's philosophy is straight up War of Attrition.

    - He doesn't care if the opponent passes for 1000 yards as long as they win.

    - He doesn't care if we win every single game by one point, as long as they win.

    - Pete doesn't care if the Hawks go 0-7 on 3rd down, as long as they get two 4th down conversions in the last drive of the game. (Minnesota was 6-14 on 3rd downs.)

    The thing about attrition/rope a dope is that it is only sustainable if you have a world class sharpshooter like Wilson to bail you out.

    It's been discussed ad nausea on here, but it bears repeating until somebody somewhere listens to the constructive criticism. Just like with letting Russ cook. Enough with the soft zone already. I don't want to regress where it is only fun watching the 4th qtr of the game like the last couple of years and hoping for another Wilson miracle. FUN!
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:42 am
  • Fade wrote:They're getting pressure on the QB. They just have bass-ackwards principles on the backend. They play outside leverage 7-15 yards off the LoS. Slants, crossers, and, hitches, are always open due to this style choice.

    This isn't a this year problem, either. The is what they started doing since showing Richard the door and made the switch to Norton.

    Opposing QBs get far too many easy, pitch and catch throws. Yay, you didn't get roasted for the TD over the top, but you just gave up the easy first down, and can't get off the field to save your life.

    The Seahawks have long, physical corners that they should be pressing, with inside leverage, forcing throws over the top where their length can be a factor. If you want to play off-coverage then get smaller, quicker, more agile corners that can play that style.

    Until that changes it won't matter who they got rushing the passer. Opposing teams are going to continue to feast in the passing game, regardless, as they have been for YEARS under Ken Norton's watch. This is not a new problem, Quinn can fix this. He played more press coverage in his 2 years as DC, than all other PC-DCs, in Seattle combined.

    Quinn was terrible in ATL you say?

    My retort to that would be, look at Pete right now here in SEA, a tremendous, defensive head coach who has a terrible defense. Quinn wasn't the DC in ATL, he was the head coach. Those are two different jobs, that require two different skill sets. Gus Bradley was terrible in JAX as a head coach, doing very well again as a DC with the Chargers. Some guys are just good coordinators. Bring back Quinn!

    Realistically, I don't see Pete demoting Norton, though. Think about it. He isn't going to walk into Norton's office and be like "I know we're 5-0, but we're bringing in Quinn, so can you please head to the LBer meeting room?"

    I mean, that is what should happen. They're on a bye week, which makes it even easier to transition. At the very least bring Quinn onboard as a consultant. But no, Pete is going to continue to ride with his buddy, we're screwed on that side of the ball. The defense is going to keep getting worse like it has been (going on 7 consecutive seasons.) Russ and the Offense are going to have to carry this thing.

    There is hope. The 2018 Chiefs were really, really bad on defense and almost made and won the Superbowl that year. If not for Dee Ford lining up offsides in the AFC Championship Game, when they all but had that game won.

    ==========

    And on a final note:

    Pete is going to kill his defense if he keeps playing this style. I know he doesn't like it, but they are going to have to play more aggressive, and take more chances, which can potentially lead to giving up more big plays, and TDs. But the alternative is having the defense on the field for 70-80 plays a game, and they all get injured. Pick your poison, Pete.


    Fade your a conventional thinker... we really dont understand why Carroll or Norton are doing the things they are on D because we are not sitting in the meetings :141847_bnono: ... So from an outside perspective your post could sound right on point... Lets just say you are right in your assessment. what I do know is that Norton isn't going anywhere this year ...there is still time for the Hawks to improve on D the season is young... If Norton is such a liability than you would think that Carroll would address it... again we dont know whats happening cause were not in the conversation...

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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:48 am
  • AubHawk71 wrote:Enough with the soft zone already. I don't want to regress where it is only fun watching the 4th qtr of the game like the last couple of years and hoping for another Wilson miracle. FUN!


    Pete's argument would probably be that without the soft zone, we'd be giving up far MORE passing yards, and probably touchdowns, via the long ball. That is what soft zone exists to prevent - give up the underneath stuff but prevent the 60-yard bomb, then crank up the pass rush when they get into field goal range.

    I don't like it either, but there's a reason it's done.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:58 am
  • Also:

    - Pete is OK being down by 14 (or 21) to zero at the half as long as they win. Like Fade says, that's killing your own D.

    The LOB is long done. You can't keep hoping to catch lighting in a bottle like that again. Adapt. Hopefully the D (by which I mean Pete) adapts in the bye week. I'm not holding my breath.

    It would interesting to see how much of Pete's success rests on Russ' shoulders. I know the QB is the man, and Russ is insane right now. But I'm trying to think of any other team that has relied SO MUCH on the QB to cover for pedestrian coaching in the last 5-10 years. And we don't even have a Teddy Bridgewater level backup to go 5-0 if the unthinkable happened. Actually, Dallas is a good example of that. Dak is a great QB, but he's no Russ Magic. If the Hawks had mirrored their record the last few years, Pete would be as gone as Garrett. McCarthy probably has another season or so.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:03 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    AubHawk71 wrote:Enough with the soft zone already. I don't want to regress where it is only fun watching the 4th qtr of the game like the last couple of years and hoping for another Wilson miracle. FUN!


    Pete's argument would probably be that without the soft zone, we'd be giving up far MORE passing yards, and probably touchdowns, via the long ball. That is what soft zone exists to prevent - give up the underneath stuff but prevent the 60-yard bomb, then crank up the pass rush when they get into field goal range.

    I don't like it either, but there's a reason it's done.



    Maybe it's just that he doesn't have faith in his corners? You don't get a lot of Richard Shermans.

    I guess my question is, why play soft zone the whole game like you are up 19 points with 9:49 to go in the 4th? You are ceding time of possession (attrition) for an entire game and wearing out your D. And putting all of your eggs in the Wilson basket for another miracle finish. Not sustainable.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:08 am
  • The problem is that winning these games this way exhausts your defense.

    You think we aren't getting pressure now?

    Wait until the end of the year when we have defensive players that have piled up hours on the field. See how well they rush the opposing QB in the playoffs after having made it to the end of regular season that keeps them on the field for 3/4 of the game every game.

    It is stupid.

    Give up a few extra TDs. That gives the ball back to our offense that can turn around and score TDs again.

    It is better to have an aggressive defense that gives up a few big scores, but gets stops...than a soft punchless defense that for the most part allows teams to methodically march up the field to score almost every possession.

    This aversion to giving up the big play makes sense when you are a run first team that takes time to score. Not when you are a big play machine yourself that can march 94 yards in under a minute. When we do give up a score, we have the ability to make up for it with a score of our own.

    The objective should not be to win every regular season game.

    That is rare and in most cases counterproductive. The objective is to go the farthest in the playoffs. You don't do that by reaching the finish line with a roster of wiped out, injured, and overused defensive players.

    It does not matter if it works. It matters if it is the best long term approach and clearly, clearly this is not.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:09 am
  • Also, soft zone is asking for trouble against TEs like Thielen. Or Kittle. Or Kelce. Thielen got 9 catches for 2 tds. Is he a deep ball threat?

    Adapt or die!
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:13 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:Passing Yards allowed
    2013 - 2751
    2014 - 2970
    2015 - 3363
    2016 - 3612 thomas didn't get injured until week 13

    By 2019, passing yards given up rise another 500 yards to 4200. The decline has been constant.


    3363 was still good for #2 in the league in 2015.

    The decline has been statistically insignificant and not indicative of any scheme change. They were still a top-flight scoring defense up until Earl was hurt and everyone knew it.


    We could be #1 this year too if everyone else was worse than us. Doesnt mean we aren't statistically worse year over year for the last 7 years. Thats a sign that what you were doing is no longer working as effectively as it once did. And I don't need the stats to tell me that. It was obvious in the last years of the LOb and its even more so now. The fact that Pete was able to keep the d from dropping off more initially is a testament to how sound the scheme was and how well suited the players were to it. We still have a good scheme, but it will never be as dominant as it was because the league has figured it out and we don't have the ideal players for it. Doesnt mean it can't be a top 10 defense with the right players or even occasionally top 5 if we have a great year where we tick over a high TO percentage. But I highly doubt we will ever see top 5 in scoring defense again unless the scheme gets a bit more exotic. If we aren't going to make offenses guess at what we are doing, we need phenomenal players to execute well above average consistently.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:49 pm
  • I'd rather get beat by the long ball than have the other team take eight minutes and seventeen plays to score a TD anyway. At least with a deep ball you get the ball back with a lot more time on the clock. Rip the band-aid off all at once opposed to slowly. The soft coverage and allowing a billion third down conversions a game is brutal. The only reason Seattle is winning is because of turnovers and I am not sure how sustainable that is.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:22 pm
  • I don't think getting Adams back helps a whole lot. The philosophy of the defense allows 400+ dink and dunk yards all game. The games with Adams they still had a horrible defense. Getting a good pass rusher also doesn't help when your scheme is very predictable and you have a corner like flowers... qbs know where the holes in the zone are before the ball is snapped
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:31 pm
  • SEA is currently ranked 29th for allowing 3rd down conversions. I have to leave the room every time it is 3rd and 5 or greater because I know a slant pass for 12-15 yards is forthcoming. But that's fine. As long as the Hawks win.

    Oh, and SEA is dead last in passing D. But that's fine.

    Soft Zone 4ever.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:53 pm
  • cymatica wrote:I don't think getting Adams back helps a whole lot. The philosophy of the defense allows 400+ dink and dunk yards all game. The games with Adams they still had a horrible defense. Getting a good pass rusher also doesn't help when your scheme is very predictable and you have a corner like flowers... qbs know where the holes in the zone are before the ball is snapped


    Exactly.

    When underneath is soft and always open, why not take it. It also beats pressure. And it's been the formula since 2012.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm
  • AubHawk71 wrote:...and they are on pace for, what, allowing 7,000+ passing yards this season?

    Pete's philosophy is straight up War of Attrition.

    - He doesn't care if the opponent passes for 1000 yards as long as they win.

    - He doesn't care if we win every single game by one point, as long as they win.

    - Pete doesn't care if the Hawks go 0-7 on 3rd down, as long as they get two 4th down conversions in the last drive of the game. (Minnesota was 6-14 on 3rd downs.)

    The thing about attrition/rope a dope is that it is only sustainable if you have a world class sharpshooter like Wilson to bail you out.

    It's been discussed ad nausea on here, but it bears repeating until somebody somewhere listens to the constructive criticism. Just like with letting Russ cook. Enough with the soft zone already. I don't want to regress where it is only fun watching the 4th qtr of the game like the last couple of years and hoping for another Wilson miracle. FUN!
    I think saying Pete doesn’t care about those things is overstating it and not accurate. He cares and will do what he can to get improvement in those areas. But he’s also going to take what he can get in a given game/season because winning IS the most important goal.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:00 pm
  • AubHawk71 wrote:SEA is currently ranked 29th for allowing 3rd down conversions. I have to leave the room every time it is 3rd and 5 or greater because I know a slant pass for 12-15 yards is forthcoming. But that's fine. As long as the Hawks win.

    Oh, and SEA is dead last in passing D. But that's fine.

    Soft Zone 4ever.


    As much as Brandon Marshall annoys me, he alluded to this and basically said teams know exactly where to go on 3rd downs against Seattle because they are predictable.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:08 pm
  • Grahamhawker wrote:
    cymatica wrote:I don't think getting Adams back helps a whole lot. The philosophy of the defense allows 400+ dink and dunk yards all game. The games with Adams they still had a horrible defense. Getting a good pass rusher also doesn't help when your scheme is very predictable and you have a corner like flowers... qbs know where the holes in the zone are before the ball is snapped


    Exactly.

    When underneath is soft and always open, why not take it. It also beats pressure. And it's been the formula since 2012.


    I remember the fail mary game where we had the LOB and a good pass rush. Rodgers was shut down in the first half using their deep pass game, then they came out in the 2nd half using 2 tight end sets with a healthy dose of short routes and marched up and down the field. The elite talent on defense prevented teams from having their way for a couple seasons.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:19 pm
  • I would love for someone in the media to ask Pete if he is cool with not surrendering the big play, but the trade off is the defense will not consistently get off the field on 3rd down. Which then has the ripple effect of his defense having to be on the field for 70-80 plays a game over the course of an entire season.

    I need to know what Pete thinks about this. How does he expect this unit to hold up for 16 games, and a deep playoff run, playing that many plays on defense?

    It's obviously great to not give up big plays, but if you have to sacrifice being this bad on 3rd down to achieve it. I don't think it really matters at that point.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:39 pm
  • The one's that drive me crazy are when the corners play way back on a 3rd down. Get up on a guy.
    Well, and guys being WIDE OPEN, over and over again. Adam Thielan…...you may wanna cover that guy :mrgreen:
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:45 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    Pete is over-correcting from the first 3 games. They had several busted coverage's that went for TDs. So now they are being extra careful to make sure they don't surrender the big play.

    Mission accomplished, but they sacrificed their 3rd down defense in the process.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:09 pm
  • Fade wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Another thought I had - soft zone is often what you see when a defensive coordinator doesn't trust his safeties. It could be a play-it-safe measure Pete and Ken are employing while they get Jamal Adams, and now Ryan Neal, up to speed schematically (and the rest of the safety crew is fairly green themselves, with Quinton Dunbar's newness adding to the communication issues).

    Perhaps, as the season wears on, we'll start seeing tighter coverage.


    Pete is over-correcting from the first 3 games. They had several busted coverage's that went for TDs. So now they are being extra careful to make sure they don't surrender the big play.

    Mission accomplished, but they sacrificed their 3rd down defense in the process.



    Correct sir.

    I think it would be more effective to look at the team ahead AS WELL AS what has been the weak spots in previous games. You're not going to get big chunk passing plays from Cousins and Thielen and...?, esp so far this year.

    Clearly Cook is your man, and Thielen is going to get you mid-size chunks.

    It's not like they have Russ and DK, or (wherefore art thou?) Lockett to put together some big time highlight reel. And Moore can get some big yards too.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:49 pm
  • Norton was a great LB coach. He sucks as DC.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:47 pm
  • Didn't the LOB benefit from somewhat different rules in the first year or two? It's much harder to have a hard-hitting defense that removes WR's desire to cross the middle when most of those hits will get flagged for hit on a "defenseless receiver" even when the DB doesn't lead with the helmet.

    I'd be curious to see how enforcing certain rules that open up the passing game has corresponded with our increase in passing yards. Obviously, a better pass rush makes all throws harder and passing yards drop. But the LOB made it easier for the Pass Russ to get home, too.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:07 am
  • There is a method to the madness, making teams dink and dunk down the field forces QBs to make more throws and thus more opportunities for mistakes. Against the greats like Brees, Brady and Rodgers this may not result in turnovers but players like Cousins, Dak, and Fitzgerald it has yielded results.

    We are
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:19 am
  • Exactly the problem.

    Against the better QBs, the ones you will face in the playoffs, it does not work.

    And because it keeps the defense on the field, it keeps your offense off it.

    And it tires your defense.

    But hey, it beats the middling teams that you won't likely face in the playoffs.

    That way when you reach the playoffs, nobody will be used to playing a different way.

    It is better to lose an extra game in the regular season, playing a way that will be more successful in the playoffs, than to master a strategy that will fail miserably in the playoffs. The goal is not the best regular season record. That just makes us the NFL version of the Milwaukie Bucks.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:54 pm
  • One thing that's been missing from our pass rush is penetration on the inside. I'm not sure if that's because our IDL have been told to stay home, but we need to get QBs to move off their spot to get sacks. Bullard and Snacks are bigger, bull rush kind of guys. Perhaps that is why we've picked them up; Ford and Reed have been unable to consistently push the pile at their high snap counts.
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Re: They're Getting Pressure on the QB
Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:06 pm
  • Own The West wrote:One thing that's been missing from our pass rush is penetration on the inside. I'm not sure if that's because our IDL have been told to stay home, but we need to get QBs to move off their spot to get sacks. Bullard and Snacks are bigger, bull rush kind of guys. Perhaps that is why we've picked them up; Ford and Reed have been unable to consistently push the pile at their high snap counts.


    :ditto: Agreed. Great post.

    Hopefully Snacks can generate some onside pressure
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