My observations from last nights thriller - and a question

Wenhawk":1qeu9z1i said:

We have an opportunistic Defense that will get better. We have plenty of talent and some super stars that will settle in. They won us the NE game, the 4th down vs the vikings was giant too.

The vikings basically had the ball for 75% and our D only gave up 26 points to one of the best running teams in the NFL

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Palpitation":34p8qi98 said:

I think Cousins is better than you are giving him credit, so you can take a step back from the ledge for that reason alone.

The critical thing our D is missing is pressure, which could/should improve when Adams, Brooks, Green & Taylor are active. Snacks also could provide some help if he requires double teams. Amadi has shown he has some chops and Neal appears to be good depth at the position.

None of these are sure bets to come to fruition (except that Adams definitely makes our D better)...but if you are looking for hope, I think these are all reasonable to consider.

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Wenhawk":3asakrde said:

Wins > Yards Allowed
Turnovers > Yards Allowed
I feel like our D is going to finish at least top 25 but has the talent to be top 16.

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TraderGary":32l0fesm said:

First just let me say that I'm as big a Hawks fan as anyone, and have been from day one of the franchise. And I’m absolutely thrilled that we won last night, and ecstatic to be 5-0 going into the bye. And with the extra week, hopefully we get some people healthy like Jamal Adams and Dunbar, and work snacks Harrison into the rotation.

That being said, I've got some questions and some things I need to get off my chest, and if you want to call me a Debbie-Downer after a big win, that’s fine, I’ve got no problem with it. But there are things I fail to understand about Pete Carroll’s schemes, and maybe some of you can offer a different perspective.

For starters, I thought Zimmer had the perfect game plan against the Hawks on both sides of the ball. I think we were terribly outcoached and I was troubled we didn't make any adjustments whatsoever on either side of the ball in the first half.

Let’s start with the offense. The Hawks love the deep ball and everyone knows it. So the Vikings come out and play cover-2 to guard against the long passes that Russ is so good at. So instead of running crossing routes in front of their safeties, or seam routes or comeback routes, all designed to take advantage of the defense they were employing, we play right into their hands by consistently running 3 receivers deep, which their defense was specifically designed to stop! We did this the entire first half and we all saw the result. Schotty has been calling great games this season, but last nights play-calling was complete BS based on the defense the Vikings were employing.

Now for the defense. First, let me just say that giving up two separate 97-yard drives to anyone is an embarrassment. But giving up two separate 97-yard drives to a very mediocre QB like Cousins is inexcusable.

It's the same old thing with Pete Carroll and his ridiculous and ultra-conservative “bend-but-don’t-break” defensive schemes. Give up the easy underneath stuff but keep everything in front and don't get beat deep. As a result, we make it far too easy for teams to convert 3rd downs and march right down the field. I have zero confidence in this defense getting off the field on 3rd downs against anyone.

We can't get off the field on 3rd down because we consistently give up the easy underneath stuff in the name of guarding against the big play over the top. Without exaggeration, it's just a simple pitch-and-catch for the QB/receiver. It's a terribly flawed scheme. For a defensive minded coach like PC, it boggles the mind.

I hope someone can talk me off the ledge because I fail to see how allowing teams easy first downs and marching right down the field with little resistance is better than playing more aggressively and risking a possible big play over the top. Please, someone help me understand this because this drives me absolutely insane each and every week. I think I need therapy. :lol: What am I missing? Does anyone have a different perspective on this?

We're 5-0 for the first time, and I absolutely love it! But that 5-0 is despite the defense, not because of it. Against teams in our division, it's going to bite us squarely in the ass if they don't adjust their schemes. Playing 5 to 10 yards off receivers with our corners bailing out pre-snap on 3rd and 7 is not going to get it done against anyone. Had we not opened up the offense, we would be getting crushed! Russ is carrying this team and I personally think PC is overrated and often gets outcoached like he did last night.

Thank you for reading.

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Wenhawk":3i3yln7v said:

TraderGary":3i3yln7v said:

First just let me say that I'm as big a Hawks fan as anyone, and have been from day one of the franchise. And I’m absolutely thrilled that we won last night, and ecstatic to be 5-0 going into the bye. And with the extra week, hopefully we get some people healthy like Jamal Adams and Dunbar, and work snacks Harrison into the rotation.

That being said, I've got some questions and some things I need to get off my chest, and if you want to call me a Debbie-Downer after a big win, that’s fine, I’ve got no problem with it. But there are things I fail to understand about Pete Carroll’s schemes, and maybe some of you can offer a different perspective.

For starters, I thought Zimmer had the perfect game plan against the Hawks on both sides of the ball. I think we were terribly outcoached and I was troubled we didn't make any adjustments whatsoever on either side of the ball in the first half.

Let’s start with the offense. The Hawks love the deep ball and everyone knows it. So the Vikings come out and play cover-2 to guard against the long passes that Russ is so good at. So instead of running crossing routes in front of their safeties, or seam routes or comeback routes, all designed to take advantage of the defense they were employing, we play right into their hands by consistently running 3 receivers deep, which their defense was specifically designed to stop! We did this the entire first half and we all saw the result. Schotty has been calling great games this season, but last nights play-calling was complete BS based on the defense the Vikings were employing.

Now for the defense. First, let me just say that giving up two separate 97-yard drives to anyone is an embarrassment. But giving up two separate 97-yard drives to a very mediocre QB like Cousins is inexcusable.

It's the same old thing with Pete Carroll and his ridiculous and ultra-conservative “bend-but-don’t-break” defensive schemes. Give up the easy underneath stuff but keep everything in front and don't get beat deep. As a result, we make it far too easy for teams to convert 3rd downs and march right down the field. I have zero confidence in this defense getting off the field on 3rd downs against anyone.

We can't get off the field on 3rd down because we consistently give up the easy underneath stuff in the name of guarding against the big play over the top. Without exaggeration, it's just a simple pitch-and-catch for the QB/receiver. It's a terribly flawed scheme. For a defensive minded coach like PC, it boggles the mind.

I hope someone can talk me off the ledge because I fail to see how allowing teams easy first downs and marching right down the field with little resistance is better than playing more aggressively and risking a possible big play over the top. Please, someone help me understand this because this drives me absolutely insane each and every week. I think I need therapy. :lol: What am I missing? Does anyone have a different perspective on this?

We're 5-0 for the first time, and I absolutely love it! But that 5-0 is despite the defense, not because of it. Against teams in our division, it's going to bite us squarely in the ass if they don't adjust their schemes. Playing 5 to 10 yards off receivers with our corners bailing out pre-snap on 3rd and 7 is not going to get it done against anyone. Had we not opened up the offense, we would be getting crushed! Russ is carrying this team and I personally think PC is overrated and often gets outcoached like he did last night.

Thank you for reading.

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Love the thought you put into this post.

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TwistedHusky":l7638txv said:

Dunbar has not been great since he got here. He has been better than Flowers, but is that great?

Adams has been a liability in coverage but the sample size is low (people saying he is better than Kam was are either victims of recency bias or completely crazy.). He is stellar in the box, but iffy in coverage.

Norton is not an exceptional DC. So far, as a DC over his career, he hasn't even been good.

I wanted Green Bay PNW, and that is what we got. We are the old Packers.

Hopefully that is enough to get us our first meaningful playoff win since the SB loss.*

But we have to accept that this is the team as long as Norton is making the decisions on defense. In the listings of worst defenses in history of the NFL - we literally get a listing. So this is us, expecting it to change overnight is not rational.

We have to win by outscoring teams because we cannot stop them reliably. If we get the lead and another team needs a FG to come back and win? We better have less than a minute on the clock because this defense is putrid...even though it is lined with what are supposed to be stars.

This defense has little if any chance of getting this team to the SB. But we could at least win a playoff game. That should have been the only reasonable goal for this team with this roster and staff. And it is completely achievable.

If we don't at least win the divisional game, this season is a failure considering what we gave up and the players we have. But winning that game and then losing in the next round shouldn't be disappointing at all. I don't think we have the horses or the staff to make it to the SB with this roster.



*(and no wildcard games do not count, the NFL just lowered the bar for what a playoff team is. Beating a Lions team that had literally never won a playoff game in decades and shouldn't have even been there...is not some kind of accomplishment. Neither is beating a depleted Eagles team with a 40 year old QB. Beating a playoff caliber team is the accomplishment and we have not done this since our SB loss - even with one of the biggest predictors of playoffs success....a stellar All Everything QB.)

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Appyhawk":1r7j6gyl said:

Wenhawk":1r7j6gyl said:

TraderGary":1r7j6gyl said:

First just let me say that I'm as big a Hawks fan as anyone, and have been from day one of the franchise. And I’m absolutely thrilled that we won last night, and ecstatic to be 5-0 going into the bye. And with the extra week, hopefully we get some people healthy like Jamal Adams and Dunbar, and work snacks Harrison into the rotation.

That being said, I've got some questions and some things I need to get off my chest, and if you want to call me a Debbie-Downer after a big win, that’s fine, I’ve got no problem with it. But there are things I fail to understand about Pete Carroll’s schemes, and maybe some of you can offer a different perspective.

For starters, I thought Zimmer had the perfect game plan against the Hawks on both sides of the ball. I think we were terribly outcoached and I was troubled we didn't make any adjustments whatsoever on either side of the ball in the first half.

Let’s start with the offense. The Hawks love the deep ball and everyone knows it. So the Vikings come out and play cover-2 to guard against the long passes that Russ is so good at. So instead of running crossing routes in front of their safeties, or seam routes or comeback routes, all designed to take advantage of the defense they were employing, we play right into their hands by consistently running 3 receivers deep, which their defense was specifically designed to stop! We did this the entire first half and we all saw the result. Schotty has been calling great games this season, but last nights play-calling was complete BS based on the defense the Vikings were employing.

Now for the defense. First, let me just say that giving up two separate 97-yard drives to anyone is an embarrassment. But giving up two separate 97-yard drives to a very mediocre QB like Cousins is inexcusable.

It's the same old thing with Pete Carroll and his ridiculous and ultra-conservative “bend-but-don’t-break” defensive schemes. Give up the easy underneath stuff but keep everything in front and don't get beat deep. As a result, we make it far too easy for teams to convert 3rd downs and march right down the field. I have zero confidence in this defense getting off the field on 3rd downs against anyone.

We can't get off the field on 3rd down because we consistently give up the easy underneath stuff in the name of guarding against the big play over the top. Without exaggeration, it's just a simple pitch-and-catch for the QB/receiver. It's a terribly flawed scheme. For a defensive minded coach like PC, it boggles the mind.

I hope someone can talk me off the ledge because I fail to see how allowing teams easy first downs and marching right down the field with little resistance is better than playing more aggressively and risking a possible big play over the top. Please, someone help me understand this because this drives me absolutely insane each and every week. I think I need therapy. :lol: What am I missing? Does anyone have a different perspective on this?

We're 5-0 for the first time, and I absolutely love it! But that 5-0 is despite the defense, not because of it. Against teams in our division, it's going to bite us squarely in the ass if they don't adjust their schemes. Playing 5 to 10 yards off receivers with our corners bailing out pre-snap on 3rd and 7 is not going to get it done against anyone. Had we not opened up the offense, we would be getting crushed! Russ is carrying this team and I personally think PC is overrated and often gets outcoached like he did last night.

Thank you for reading.

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Love the thought you put into this post.

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I agree with Trader's critique about us not making earlier adjustments. I complained about that very thing in the game forum. However, the very thing the Vikes were doing to take away the deep stuff we're so good at is the very thing you criticize the Hawks for doing. The problem was that the Vikes were doing it a whole lot better than we were, partly because they also got good QB pressure from an D Line that was dominating LOS. We did a better job defensively, at times, in the second half, accompanied by our offense opening things up by utilizing TE routes and running more effectively. That's why the game was so back and forth. We were both trying to do the same thing.
Pete's fault may be that he does what he does because he knows it will work. When it doesn't work he keeps trying to do it better until it does work again. That CAN result in keeping on digging when you're already in a hole.

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FearTheHawk":1kbqnseu said:

The defense is talented. They just have to put it together. Adams comes back after the bye, which is a huge boost. Diggs is solid. Griffin is playing better and Dunbar had a good game v Minny. Question is, can he stay healthy. Ryan Neal has been a great surprise. Tre Flowers is awful and easily the weakest link on the field at any given time. Amadi has been solid. Bobby is Bobby. KJ is having a stellar year and has maybe been our best player on D. Barton is bad. He is horrendous at shedding blocks. Lets hope Brooks gets back too. I don't think we've seen what he can do. The D line is shaky but it's starting to gel a bit. Collier and Mayowa are playing better. J Reed looked excellent v Minny so lets hope he keeps that up. Ford, Mone, and Rush are all decent. Snacks will help v the run. Robinson has showed promise and we get Taylor soon. Rasheem comes back too. I think this D and this team is one edge rusher trade away from a bowl. I love the idea of going all in and trying to get someone like Von Miller or Ryan Kerrigan. But this D can only get better. Brooks and Adams should make a big difference after the bye. I hope we can find a way to keep Flowers planted on the bench. He looks absolutely lost.

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SoulfishHawk":1i9a8yzc said:

Missing Adams and Dunbar for much of the 5 games. Irvin out for the season early. Green still to come back soon. Brooks to come back soon. Snacks added to the mix.
This D is going to get better. Shoot, they haven't had their full Defensive lineup all season.
And this offense is VERY good obviously. Still have Penny, Gordon and Dorsett on the way.

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