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Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:29 pm
  • I don't understand why you guys think the O is struggling... The Hawks have played some of the best D's in the league... AD is going to get his plays because the guy is the best... Carroll says the Ram D is the best in the NFL... they sparred with the Rams the first half and didn't have the 3rd down efficiency but went into half made some adjustments and came out and drove down the field and scored a TD that drive took control of the game and they never looked back... Russ was 10-13 2 TD's in the second half of the game.. when the Hawks play the best D's in the league, is it reasonable to think they should just roll over them?

    I think we are not going to see the offensive explosions we saw in the first half of the season because the other teams are taking that away and the Hawks are proving they can beat teams in different ways other than the long ball..


    Yeah the big plays are flashy and exciting but efficiency and balance win ball games...


    LTH
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:41 pm
  • RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:15 pm
  • renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.




    So what is elite level mean exactly... after making 2nd half adjustments in the second half the Hawks were 5-8 on third down conversions... the Hawks are 3rd in the league in 2nd half points scored at 15... The Hawks were 8-17 47% for the game... which is a little low but shouldn't the fact that they are playing the best D in the league be a consideration?


    What are they supposed to do?

    I think you're basing his average on the first part of the season and being that teams have adjusted to take away the long ball I don't think it's reasonable to hold Russ to that standard...


    Just my take

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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:25 pm
  • LTH wrote:I don't understand why you guys think the O is struggling... The Hawks have played some of the best D's in the league... AD is going to get his plays because the guy is the best... Carroll says the Ram D is the best in the NFL... they sparred with the Rams the first half and didn't have the 3rd down efficiency but went into half made some adjustments and came out and drove down the field and scored a TD that drive took control of the game and they never looked back... Russ was 10-13 2 TD's in the second half of the game.. when the Hawks play the best D's in the league, is it reasonable to think they should just roll over them?

    I think we are not going to see the offensive explosions we saw in the first half of the season because the other teams are taking that away and the Hawks are proving they can beat teams in different ways other than the long ball..


    Yeah the big plays are flashy and exciting but efficiency and balance win ball games...


    LTH


    I feel like Russ still tends to hold out for the long ball a few too many times during the game. It leads to a lot of 3rd down sacks.

    Struggling is such a relative term. They struggled to do much yesterday in the 1st half. Their 3rd down efficiency early was bad and it seemed like Russ and Schotty were a bit confused at times by what the Rams were showing them.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:25 pm
  • Struggling?

    No.

    Consistent?

    No.

    Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

    Yes.

    Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

    No.


    He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

    Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

    Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

    But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:39 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Struggling?

    No.

    Consistent?

    No.

    Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

    Yes.

    Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

    No.


    He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

    Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

    Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

    But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.



    I think he is a top 5 QB. QBs have struggled against the defenses we've player, which are the best. The NFCW is the best division in the NFL.

    In PPG, which is the only stat that matters, the Rams are the #3 defense in the NFL at 193. PPG, They have the best defensive player in the league, PLUS Jalen Ramsey.

    Miami has the #1 Defense in the NFL at 18.8PPG, yet people squawked when our Offense struggled against them.

    Washington Warriors (my vote goes for Warriors) are #5, New England #6, Giants #11 and the Cardinals are no joke at #14. So it's been a tough road down which any team would struggle.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:42 pm
  • renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.



    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:50 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.



    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

    I agree with you John he isn't elite- not nearly all the time
    but he has elite moments..That TD pass was elite to Hollister.
    That run in for TD was an elite play ..I could bring up all the
    unelite plays but we all saw the game so I just want to enjoy
    the team win..The D was awesome!
    It was an elite win for everyone :2thumbs:
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:54 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Struggling?

    No.

    Consistent?

    No.

    Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

    Yes.

    Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

    No.


    He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

    Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

    Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

    But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.


    What is elite? I think Wilson is elite because of the way he manages games... it could be said that Carson is not an elite running back... but the truth is he is an elite running back that splits his carries with Hyde and now Penny...

    If the Hawks were to score 10 more points a game what does that really mean? IMO it means nothing it doesn't make this team any better record wise...it just pads the stats which ultimately mean nothing the D being an example of that... we probably have one of the best D's in the league the way these guys are playing right now but the stats are not going to represent that as a whole...

    So is Wilson struggling well... IMO he should struggle a bit going against the top D's in the league but they make the halftime adjustments if Wilson executes the adjustments, scores the needed points as well takes care of the ball not turning it over is that not an excellent performance?


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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:04 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.



    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion


    Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

    In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

    3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
    3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
    3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:07 pm
  • renofox wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.



    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion


    Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

    In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

    3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
    3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
    3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7


    Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:09 pm
  • Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

    He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

    When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:13 pm
  • Here is the reality

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/four-downs-with-bob-condotta-and-adam-jude-answering-four-seahawks-questions-after-their-victory-over-the-rams/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SNA_122820225011+Answering+the+Seahawks%27+most+pressing+questions_12_28_2020&utm_term=Registered%20User

    ". Has the offense found its winning formula for the playoffs?
    Jude: For the most part, yes. The Let Russ Cook era, as brief as it was, was thrilling — there’s no denying that. And I understand some of the consternation from a particular faction of the fan base that’s screaming for Carroll to again give Wilson more freedom. But Carroll does not view offensive football in a vacuum; he does not see defensive football in a vacuum, either. When he talks about “balance” and a “complementary” style, he is talking about his offense and his defense helping each other out. We saw a prime example of that not happening in the Buffalo game, when Seattle’s four offensive turnovers put its defense in peril. Carroll is not going back to that. The Seahawks’ September offensive surge was, in hindsight, a mirage. There was nothing normal about the buildup to the 2020 season for anyone — limited practices, no preseason, new testing routines, etc., and offenses around the league had the upper hand early. Seattle’s offensive success in the first half of the season created unrealistic expectations. Defenses have adjusted; they’re making it harder for the Seahawks to execute those big plays downfield — the loss to the Giants being a prime example of that. Wilson tried three deep passes Sunday; the throws for Metcalf and Tyler Lockett fell incomplete. The 45-yard pass to David Moore was the play of the game on offense. You can call Carroll’s approach conservative, but you have to also acknowledge it’s a proven approach in the playoffs — and one the Seahawks used to win a playoff-type game Sunday.

    Condotta: Yes. True, it took a little while for Seattle’s offense to find its footing Sunday. But as Carroll noted later, a big factor was the Seahawks not turning the ball over — one of just five times this year Seattle has done that. All have been wins. And I think some of the “slow start” was in part not wanting to make a game-turning mistake. As long as Seattle was within one possession of tying or taking the lead, the Seahawks were going to preach not screwing things up on offense, especially early. You saw Wilson get more aggressive in the second half and that was by design. True, Seattle averaged just 4.8 yards per play, lowest of the season other than the loss against the Giants. But that rose to 6.3 in the second half when Seattle had five of its seven longest gains, with Wilson completing 10 of 13 passes for 141 yards against statistically the NFL’s best pass defense. In Carroll’s perfect world Seattle might rush for more than 95 yards. But Seattle had 4.0 per attempt, and Chris Carson had 21 yards on three attempts on the final touchdown drive that moved the ball and kept the clock running (or forced L.A. to use its timeouts). It felt like the running game was just enough to make a difference, which is what Seattle will need in the postseason."


    You will not see many if any 300+ 4td games. You will see more of the 200 yards 2-3 tds high complt % games. Which is what we got this last game, adn what PC wants

    So the if that is not elite to you then take it up with PC. And FYi going by PCs definition Wilson was elite this last game.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:14 pm
  • Elite = top 10% of all starting NFL QBs, or top 3-4 best over the course of a season.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:14 pm
  • Hawkpower wrote:Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

    He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

    When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.



    I think a lot of those funks are hits catching up to him. He takes a lot more than either of those 2 QBs
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:16 pm
  • John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

    Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

    The eye test and the stats both prove this.

    RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.



    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion


    Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

    In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

    3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
    3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
    3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7


    Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.


    As I said "Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done."

    https://www.footballdb.com/players/russell-wilson-wilsoru01

    If you want to do a deep stat dive, feel free. I find it boring and unnecessary to form an opinion. It is usually used by people to buttress their opinion, but I find it redundant as stats can be presented and interpreted to support both sides of any argument. Using a stat to illustrate a point is one thing. Battles using walls of stats is another.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:17 pm
  • Hawkpower wrote:Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

    He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

    When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.



    Here is the thing... it's not all about Russ... if the O is struggling like at times this year it did but because of injury on the O line or not having a run game cause all the backs are hurt... these are all factors... yeah maybe Russ tried to do too much at times forcing the long ball and holding the ball to long thats legit but at this point they have adjusted to that and they are healthy... so should Russ be held to an elite status? I think we will see that his play is elite even though they are not scoring 37 points a game...

    Just my take...
    \
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:22 pm
  • Yo look at him in the lakers jersey with the weird black turtleneck thingy underneath. Dudes struggling. But he still plays football OK.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:39 pm
  • renofox wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    John63 wrote:

    The question is what is your definition of elite play?

    Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

    So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion


    Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

    In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

    3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
    3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
    3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7


    Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.


    As I said "Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done."

    https://www.footballdb.com/players/russell-wilson-wilsoru01

    If you want to do a deep stat dive, feel free. I find it boring and unnecessary to form an opinion. It is usually used by people to buttress their opinion, but I find it redundant as stats can be presented and interpreted to support both sides of any argument. Using a stat to illustrate a point is one thing. Battles using walls of stats is another.



    oh so for you 3rd and 2 is the same as 3rd and 15.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:42 pm
  • It's hard for me to tell if it's Russ or something else. It doesn't seem like guys are winning on routes on a consistent basis in the amount of time Russ has to throw. When I watch KC or GB games I see guys running wide open and a bunch of easy throws for Mahomes and Rodgers to get into a rhythm. I'm glad Shotty is running more 3 step drops and quick hitters, but I want to see a lot more pick plays, like the brilliant one to Hollister to beat the Rams. KC and GB spam the opponent with those.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:45 pm
  • hoxrox wrote:Elite = top 10% of all starting NFL QBs, or top 3-4 best over the course of a season.



    Okay so top 3-4 based on what?

    He is top 7 in yards, top 11 in YPA top 2 in tds, top 5 in Qb rating, top 4 in complt%.

    Only 3 qbs hit these marks in the NFl so Elite
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:59 pm
  • A_Biased_Fan wrote:It's hard for me to tell if it's Russ or something else. It doesn't seem like guys are winning on routes on a consistent basis in the amount of time Russ has to throw. When I watch KC or GB games I see guys running wide open and a bunch of easy throws for Mahomes and Rodgers to get into a rhythm. I'm glad Shotty is running more 3 step drops and quick hitters, but I want to see a lot more pick plays, like the brilliant one to Hollister to beat the Rams. KC and GB spam the opponent with those.


    Schotty is awful. He makes everything hard on RW. Reid schemes people wide open. Schotty has the RO where RW never keeps and only does straight dropbacks.

    Move the pocket, run misdirection, Screens, reverses, keep it on an RO more than once every 2 months.

    This O is so easy to defend now.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:03 pm
  • The thing that concerns me the most is Russell's decision making and game awareness, which in the past has been superb. A good example is yesterday at the end of the first half. We had the ball on our own 30 yard line with 23 seconds left and no timeouts. We needed to move the ball at least 35 yards to have a viable chance at a long distance FG attempt, 20 or so for a Hail Mary. But Russell decides to break the pocket straight up the middle of the field, gaining about 5 yards. Our receivers, having been on deep routes, have to hustle like hell to get to the LOS so we could spike the ball, leaving about 2 seconds on the clock. We should have had at least 3 shots at getting in position for a FG attempt/Hail Mary.

    Outside of that, he hasn't played that poorly to where he's losing games for us, but he's not playing anywhere close to his ability. Even so, he's still playing better than all but a handful of QB's.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:06 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:The thing that concerns me the most is Russell's decision making and game awareness, which in the past has been superb. A good example is yesterday at the end of the first half. We had the ball on our own 30 yard line with 23 seconds left and no timeouts. We needed to move the ball at least 35 yards to have a viable chance at a long distance FG attempt, 20 or so for a Hail Mary. But Russell decides to break the pocket straight up the middle of the field, gaining about 5 yards. Our receivers, having been on deep routes, have to hustle like hell to get to the LOS so we could spike the ball, leaving about 2 seconds on the clock. We should have had at least 3 shots at getting in position for a FG attempt/Hail Mary. He also seems to run into more sacks than he used to. Not sure if that due to bad decisions or just getting slow.

    Outside of that, he hasn't played that poorly to where he's losing games for us, but he's not playing anywhere close to his ability. Even so, he's still playing better than all but a handful of QB's.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:09 pm
  • Why do I keep thinking that "Russ is struggling" just means "Russ isn't putting up great fantasy stats"?

    :twisted:
    sutz
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:11 pm
  • sutz wrote:Why do I keep thinking that "Russ is struggling" just means "Russ isn't putting up great fantasy stats"?

    :twisted:



    I agree...

    LTH
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:19 pm
  • sutz wrote:Why do I keep thinking that "Russ is struggling" just means "Russ isn't putting up great fantasy stats"?

    :twisted:



    THIS
    John63
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:22 pm
  • I do think Russ has been struggling a bit and I think it's more of a gameplan approach than him specifically. They have really tried to take a lot of decisions out of his hands and where he's struggled has been when he tries to extend plays (for the most part).

    I don't know how much struggling though he's doing because we're winning these games and that's basically all Pete tries to do.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:01 pm
  • Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:07 pm
  • TraderGary wrote:Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.


    Agree about the results, no idea of the cause. I think he's already on the way out of his annual slump. He's been playing progressively better as the season draws to a close. I think he'll be back to at least normal RW, and maybe even elite RW, by the time he hits the playoffs.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:15 pm
  • I'm also perplexed as to why they're not trying to get DK more involved in the offense, and finding different ways to get him the ball. They should be throwing him at least a couple deep 50/50 balls per game when he's being isolated, and let him go up and make a play. With his size and strength, he should win those most of the time.

    I also think Tyler may be nursing an injury that they're trying to keep under wraps. He's been very quiet for a number of weeks now. I think when the Hawks season is over, (hopefully after the SB), we may very well hear that he's been playing hurt.

    Regardless, we are not getting the ball to our play-makers which is a contributing factor to our lack of offense and RW's regression. We have also gone back to a much more conservative "Pete Ball" type of offensive philosophy. Granted, we have been playing some pretty tough defenses in recent weeks.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:18 pm
  • renofox wrote:
    TraderGary wrote:Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.


    Agree about the results, no idea of the cause. I think he's already on the way out of his annual slump. He's been playing progressively better as the season draws to a close. I think he'll be back to at least normal RW, and maybe even elite RW, by the time he hits the playoffs.


    Russ has Not lost confidence... I know this for a fact...The reason why he is not having the success he did early on is simple... teams have adjusted to take away the long ball... they are making the Hawks beat them in other ways... really.. it's that simple...


    LTH
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:22 pm
  • renofox wrote:
    TraderGary wrote:Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.


    Agree about the results, no idea of the cause. I think he's already on the way out of his annual slump. He's been playing progressively better as the season draws to a close. I think he'll be back to at least normal RW, and maybe even elite RW, by the time he hits the playoffs.

    I hope you're right. Our defense is playing great, but without Russ playing at or near the top of his game, I don't think we can beat teams like the Packers and Saints, and possibly even TB.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:32 pm
  • LTH wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    TraderGary wrote:Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.


    Agree about the results, no idea of the cause. I think he's already on the way out of his annual slump. He's been playing progressively better as the season draws to a close. I think he'll be back to at least normal RW, and maybe even elite RW, by the time he hits the playoffs.


    Russ has Not lost confidence... I know this for a fact...The reason why he is not having the success he did early on is simple... teams have adjusted to take away the long ball... they are making the Hawks beat them in other ways... really.. it's that simple...


    LTH

    I don't believe it is that simple. Yes teams have been scheming to take away the deep ball. But it goes deeper than that.

    RW is not calm in the pocket. He's been very jittery, indecisive, takes off when he doesn't need to, and frankly looks lost at times. Now that may be a direct result of all the hits he's been taking. But the fact is, he is not playing at the level he was early on, or even in years past. That being said, I still have confidence in him and his abilities and believe he will figure it out and return to playing at an elite level again, hopefully before the first playoff game.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:39 pm
  • I'm pretty sure we're gonna find out after the season that Russ hasn't been close to 100%.

    I think he takes more hits than almost any QB in the league(i have no stats to back that up) so it's bound to cause some issues.
    Hockey Guy
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:11 pm
  • Hockey Guy wrote:I'm pretty sure we're gonna find out after the season that Russ hasn't been close to 100%.

    I think he takes more hits than almost any QB in the league(i have no stats to back that up) so it's bound to cause some issues.

    You may very well be right about that.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:21 pm
  • Hawkpower wrote:Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

    He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

    When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.



    Lmao mahomes hasn't exactly been lighting it up the last month, do any of you recall the numerous times the lob made Rodgers look human? ALL qbs struggle at times.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:23 pm
  • TraderGary wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    TraderGary wrote:Something is off with Russ, and I'm not going to throw a bunch of stats out there to defend my point. As someone else in this thread mentioned, it's the eye test, and if you're viewing his play objectively, it should be pretty obvious. He's not the same QB he was early in the season, or even in seasons past. He seems to have lost some confidence, and has been very hesitant and indecisive ever since that stretch when he was turning the ball over a lot.

    This is just a theory, but I wonder if he's being somewhat handcuffed by Pete who's instructing him to protect the ball at all costs and not to throw into any tight windows which may be causing the hesitation? This is just a guess on my part, and I have nothing to back that up with. All I know is he doesn't look like the same QB, and his decision-making has been very questionable at times. Something is causing him to second-guess himself on occasion, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him before. He has always been supremely confident in whatever he's doing.

    Whatever the issue may be, I hope he finds his stride again before the playoffs get under way as we're going to need him to be at the top of his game.


    Agree about the results, no idea of the cause. I think he's already on the way out of his annual slump. He's been playing progressively better as the season draws to a close. I think he'll be back to at least normal RW, and maybe even elite RW, by the time he hits the playoffs.


    Russ has Not lost confidence... I know this for a fact...The reason why he is not having the success he did early on is simple... teams have adjusted to take away the long ball... they are making the Hawks beat them in other ways... really.. it's that simple...


    LTH

    I don't believe it is that simple. Yes teams have been scheming to take away the deep ball. But it goes deeper than that.

    RW is not calm in the pocket. He's been very jittery, indecisive, takes off when he doesn't need to, and frankly looks lost at times. Now that may be a direct result of all the hits he's been taking. But the fact is, he is not playing at the level he was early on, or even in years past. That being said, I still have confidence in him and his abilities and believe he will figure it out and return to playing at an elite level again, hopefully before the first playoff game.


    Your certainly entitled to your opinion...but your really not bringing anything to the table that is ANYWHERE NEAR concrete...

    If you pay attention to Carroll at his PC he doesn't put his players in harm's way for the win...there are multiple examples of this... the team would know if there is something wrong with Russ because of all the concussion protocols...

    I certainly don't agree that he is jittery and indecisive he has been doing a really good job of making his reads and managing games at an MVP level only they are not scoring 37 points a game...Russ problem if he has one is that he wants to do to much...

    sometimes an apple is just an apple dude but if you want to make it an apple pie, have at it...


    LTH
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Re: Russ struggling?
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:26 pm
  • You guys are silly...

    This is Wilson best statistic year...Wilson will have 4000yrd 40tds w 70% completion...

    We won in the toughest division, if 49ers were healthy probably all 4 would be in the playoffs.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:50 am
  • rcaido wrote:You guys are silly...

    This is Wilson best statistic year...Wilson will have 4000yrd 40tds w 70% completion...

    We won in the toughest division, if 49ers were healthy probably all 4 would be in the playoffs.


    But just like there's a 1st half and 2nd half of the season defensively, there seems to be a corresponding trend with RW's play. He put up most of the big numbers earlier in the season, and less lately.

    Yes, teams are scheming, and there's no question in my mind that the quick-blitzing Cardinals gave other teams an approach to slow him down a bit.

    He's a fantastic QB, and I wouldn't really want anyone else on this team with this coaching staff. But he's there could be any number of reasons things don't look like the start of the year from RW personally (mental/physical) to play-calling to defensive fronts faced, etc. The sample-size isn't huge, so it's not like we can make firm conclusions without the data that PC and RW are probably never going to share with fans like us.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:03 am
  • My biggest beef yesterday was Russell not bootlegging out of pressure, instead staying back in the high point of the pocket for too long, inevitably pressure would get there where happy feet, shoulder shrugs and sacks could be found.

    I want Russell MOVING especially against those tough fronts like the Rams have. He may not be as fast as he used to be but he can still move and has decent mobility for a QB. I can't tell how much of this is Russ or Schotty. Hike the ball, roll out of the pocket and buy some time (when it's warranted). When Russ is a lot more mobile, he can change the game and frustrate the hell out of defenses.

    I get that you don't want your QB bootlegging on every pass play but this stubborn insistence to try to stay in the pocket when there's nothing available, forcing a incompletion or inaccurate pass or worse, a sack, just frustrates me to no end.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:01 am
  • I'm laughing more at the fact that no matter what this guy does, it's never good enough.
    A bunch of whining 12's on the radio were complaining that Russ "should have ran" instead of throwing an absolute dime to Moore. Geez man, he just can't win.
    Lord Rodgers and Mahomes do the same exact thing all the time, they get praised for it. Russ does it, he's making a "bad decision"
    He only "should have ran it" if it DOESN'T WORK. You could point to many QB's around the league and see a play that they had a bunch of running room, but threw it downfield. It's not some uncommon thing.
    If he does run it, people will point out that he missed a wide open player. If he doesn't run it, he gets blasted for that.

    I didn't like the play calling that was keeping him in the pocket. Not against that D Line. But at the same time, 2 HUGE touchdown drives in the 2nd half. And Russ being Nails AGAIN. They are not even close to 11-4 without him under center. Can he play better? Absolutely. But he was basically carrying the team the first half of the season because what WAS a historically bad defense.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:06 am
  • Aros wrote:My biggest beef yesterday was Russell not bootlegging out of pressure, instead staying back in the high point of the pocket for too long, inevitably pressure would get there where happy feet, shoulder shrugs and sacks could be found.

    I want Russell MOVING especially against those tough fronts like the Rams have. He may not be as fast as he used to be but he can still move and has decent mobility for a QB. I can't tell how much of this is Russ or Schotty. Hike the ball, roll out of the pocket and buy some time (when it's warranted). When Russ is a lot more mobile, he can change the game and frustrate the hell out of defenses.

    I get that you don't want your QB bootlegging on every pass play but this stubborn insistence to try to stay in the pocket when there's nothing available, forcing a incompletion or inaccurate pass or worse, a sack, just frustrates me to no end.


    For some reason, Russell has been making a lot of bad decisions as to when to try to break the pocket and extend the play or unload it and avoid the sack. He doesn't see defenders and will often times run himself into a sack. Part of it could be that his legs are getting heavier, that he doesn't have that elusiveness like he had 6-8 years ago and has yet to fully realize these new limitations and hasn't made the adjustment yet.

    But as I said earlier, my biggest beef is with his situational awareness, like losing track of the play clock, taking a sack on first down by trying to make something happen out of a busted play rather than throwing it away, or like last Sunday when he takes off on a scramble in the middle of the field from his own 30 with 23 seconds and no timeouts. Those are the types of mistakes you expect a rookie to make, not a 9 year veteran who prides himself on his mental preparation.

    I don't want to act like I'm throwing Russell under the bus and I sometimes wonder if he's spoiled us to the point where we expect him to be perfect all the time. But as a diehard Hawks fan that has lived through so many of Dave Krieg's brain farts, it's still very infuriating and frustrating to watch it happen to the best QB in our franchise's history.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:13 am
  • 11-4
    Division Champs
    Winning sucks

    4,031 Passing Yards
    38 Touchdowns
    13 Picks
    While the Interception numbers are high FOR HIM, those numbers are damn good. And people are acting like he's Jared Off or something :mrgreen:
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:21 am
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:I'm laughing more at the fact that no matter what this guy does, it's never good enough.
    A bunch of whining 12's on the radio were complaining that Russ "should have ran" instead of throwing an absolute dime to Moore. Geez man, he just can't win.
    Lord Rodgers and Mahomes do the same exact thing all the time, they get praised for it. Russ does it, he's making a "bad decision"
    He only "should have ran it" if it DOESN'T WORK. You could point to many QB's around the league and see a play that they had a bunch of running room, but threw it downfield. It's not some uncommon thing.
    If he does run it, people will point out that he missed a wide open player. If he doesn't run it, he gets blasted for that.

    I didn't like the play calling that was keeping him in the pocket. Not against that D Line. But at the same time, 2 HUGE touchdown drives in the 2nd half. And Russ being Nails AGAIN. They are not even close to 11-4 without him under center. Can he play better? Absolutely. But he was basically carrying the team the first half of the season because what WAS a historically bad defense.


    Regarding the pass play to Moore. Had the game situation been different, if, for example, we were trailing in the 4th quarter by a FG, then I would have joined the others you are referring to and said that the smart play would have been to take the 10 yards or so and keep the sticks moving. But the score was 6-6 and it was early in the 2nd half, so there wasn't the sense of urgency that would have dictated that we play conservatively and go with the best odds play. I don't mind taking a shot down the field under those circumstances.

    The last TD drive was a thing of beauty. I just wish he'd be a little more consistent.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:35 am
  • Fair enough. I just find it odd that even when he wins a big game, more time is spent on the negative when it comes to Russ. Oh well, kind of par for the course his entire career.
    The offense in general has been up and down. But they did put up 20 against the best Defense in the league.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:45 am
  • I was happy to see him connect with Moore on that throw on the run when he was scrambling. Seems like he's misfired and even thrown picks a few times doing that this year. He could have ran for about 15 yards, so I'd be b!@ch if the pass was incomplete. But since it wasn't, I gotta give him respect for showing us why he trusts his ability to make deep throws, even while running.

    Otherwise, I do agree Russ isn't playing his best. That throw into triple coverage early in the game that bounced off a defender's chest was terrible.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:49 am
  • Yep, let's dwell on that one bad throw. And yes, it was a bad one.
    Followed by yet another Clutch game clinching drive. Two touchdowns drives in the 2nd half. Nails, again.

    And of course people will get mad if it's incomplete and he could have ran it. That's very justified. What is odd to me is that people seem to mad that he even tried it. That play has nothing to do with previous forced throws. Moore was open, he put it on the money.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:53 am
  • I'm not dwelling on it. Just pointing it out. It was the only bad play that sticks out in my mind. Overall, Russ had a great game considering the defense he was up against.
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Re: Russ struggling?
Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:57 am
  • Also, teams are getting better at how to pass rush mobile QBs, including Russ. If the D-line is disciplined and stays in their lanes, and a 5th player does a delayed rush that watches for the gaps that form, you corral the QB so that if he doesn't release the ball he gets taken down.

    I don't mean to excuse Russ, he does tend to hold the ball too long on many plays, but of course that's also when those big plays often happen, too. Trade offs, as always. :twisted:
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