Russ struggling?

I don't understand why you guys think the O is struggling... The Hawks have played some of the best D's in the league... AD is going to get his plays because the guy is the best... Carroll says the Ram D is the best in the NFL... they sparred with the Rams the first half and didn't have the 3rd down efficiency but went into half made some adjustments and came out and drove down the field and scored a TD that drive took control of the game and they never looked back... Russ was 10-13 2 TD's in the second half of the game.. when the Hawks play the best D's in the league, is it reasonable to think they should just roll over them?

I think we are not going to see the offensive explosions we saw in the first half of the season because the other teams are taking that away and the Hawks are proving they can beat teams in different ways other than the long ball..


Yeah the big plays are flashy and exciting but efficiency and balance win ball games...


LTH

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

renofox":389c3u8b said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

So what is elite level mean exactly... after making 2nd half adjustments in the second half the Hawks were 5-8 on third down conversions... the Hawks are 3rd in the league in 2nd half points scored at 15... The Hawks were 8-17 47% for the game... which is a little low but shouldn't the fact that they are playing the best D in the league be a consideration?


What are they supposed to do?

I think you're basing his average on the first part of the season and being that teams have adjusted to take away the long ball I don't think it's reasonable to hold Russ to that standard...


Just my take

LTH

LTH":1yctjjfy said:

I don't understand why you guys think the O is struggling... The Hawks have played some of the best D's in the league... AD is going to get his plays because the guy is the best... Carroll says the Ram D is the best in the NFL... they sparred with the Rams the first half and didn't have the 3rd down efficiency but went into half made some adjustments and came out and drove down the field and scored a TD that drive took control of the game and they never looked back... Russ was 10-13 2 TD's in the second half of the game.. when the Hawks play the best D's in the league, is it reasonable to think they should just roll over them?

I think we are not going to see the offensive explosions we saw in the first half of the season because the other teams are taking that away and the Hawks are proving they can beat teams in different ways other than the long ball..


Yeah the big plays are flashy and exciting but efficiency and balance win ball games...


LTH

Click to expand...

I feel like Russ still tends to hold out for the long ball a few too many times during the game. It leads to a lot of 3rd down sacks.

Struggling is such a relative term. They struggled to do much yesterday in the 1st half. Their 3rd down efficiency early was bad and it seemed like Russ and Schotty were a bit confused at times by what the Rams were showing them.

Struggling?

No.

Consistent?

No.

Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

Yes.

Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

No.


He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.

TwistedHusky":1n1hxtxm said:

Struggling?

No.

Consistent?

No.

Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

Yes.

Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

No.


He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.

Click to expand...

I think he is a top 5 QB. QBs have struggled against the defenses we've player, which are the best. The NFCW is the best division in the NFL.

In PPG, which is the only stat that matters, the Rams are the #3 defense in the NFL at 193. PPG, They have the best defensive player in the league, PLUS Jalen Ramsey.

Miami has the #1 Defense in the NFL at 18.8PPG, yet people squawked when our Offense struggled against them.

Washington Warriors (my vote goes for Warriors) are #5, New England #6, Giants #11 and the Cardinals are no joke at #14. So it's been a tough road down which any team would struggle.

renofox":1hphjl3u said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

John63":4g5dtexh said:

renofox":4g5dtexh said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

Click to expand...

I agree with you John he isn't elite- not nearly all the time
but he has elite moments..That TD pass was elite to Hollister.
That run in for TD was an elite play ..I could bring up all the
unelite plays but we all saw the game so I just want to enjoy
the team win..The D was awesome!
It was an elite win for everyone :2thumbs:

TwistedHusky":3eum6bq4 said:

Struggling?

No.

Consistent?

No.

Producing at the level of an NFL QB facing good defenses?

Yes.

Producing at the level of a top 5 QB facing good defenses?

No.


He clearly looks off. The why is the issue. But he is not making plays he did regularly in seasons not so long ago.

Is he distracted or injured? Remember one year he played with what clearly was a high-ankle sprain, and would not come out of games. It would be reasonable if he was injured that no word was breathed of it and he just would tough through it.

Then again, he is doing all kind of things off field now and it could be playing a part.

But it takes a lot of willingness to overlook what your eyes are telling you vs most other years, to be able to try to pretend everything is right with him.

Click to expand...

What is elite? I think Wilson is elite because of the way he manages games... it could be said that Carson is not an elite running back... but the truth is he is an elite running back that splits his carries with Hyde and now Penny...

If the Hawks were to score 10 more points a game what does that really mean? IMO it means nothing it doesn't make this team any better record wise...it just pads the stats which ultimately mean nothing the D being an example of that... we probably have one of the best D's in the league the way these guys are playing right now but the stats are not going to represent that as a whole...

So is Wilson struggling well... IMO he should struggle a bit going against the top D's in the league but they make the halftime adjustments if Wilson executes the adjustments, scores the needed points as well takes care of the ball not turning it over is that not an excellent performance?


LTH

John63":16h44cr7 said:

renofox":16h44cr7 said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

Click to expand...

Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7

renofox":ttcz9e9x said:

John63":ttcz9e9x said:

renofox":ttcz9e9x said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

Click to expand...

Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7

Click to expand...

Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.

Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.

Here is the reality

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports...questions_12_28_2020&utm_term=Registered User

". Has the offense found its winning formula for the playoffs?
Jude: For the most part, yes. The Let Russ Cook era, as brief as it was, was thrilling — there’s no denying that. And I understand some of the consternation from a particular faction of the fan base that’s screaming for Carroll to again give Wilson more freedom. But Carroll does not view offensive football in a vacuum; he does not see defensive football in a vacuum, either. When he talks about “balance” and a “complementary” style, he is talking about his offense and his defense helping each other out. We saw a prime example of that not happening in the Buffalo game, when Seattle’s four offensive turnovers put its defense in peril. Carroll is not going back to that. The Seahawks’ September offensive surge was, in hindsight, a mirage. There was nothing normal about the buildup to the 2020 season for anyone — limited practices, no preseason, new testing routines, etc., and offenses around the league had the upper hand early. Seattle’s offensive success in the first half of the season created unrealistic expectations. Defenses have adjusted; they’re making it harder for the Seahawks to execute those big plays downfield — the loss to the Giants being a prime example of that. Wilson tried three deep passes Sunday; the throws for Metcalf and Tyler Lockett fell incomplete. The 45-yard pass to David Moore was the play of the game on offense. You can call Carroll’s approach conservative, but you have to also acknowledge it’s a proven approach in the playoffs — and one the Seahawks used to win a playoff-type game Sunday.

Condotta: Yes. True, it took a little while for Seattle’s offense to find its footing Sunday. But as Carroll noted later, a big factor was the Seahawks not turning the ball over — one of just five times this year Seattle has done that. All have been wins. And I think some of the “slow start” was in part not wanting to make a game-turning mistake. As long as Seattle was within one possession of tying or taking the lead, the Seahawks were going to preach not screwing things up on offense, especially early. You saw Wilson get more aggressive in the second half and that was by design. True, Seattle averaged just 4.8 yards per play, lowest of the season other than the loss against the Giants. But that rose to 6.3 in the second half when Seattle had five of its seven longest gains, with Wilson completing 10 of 13 passes for 141 yards against statistically the NFL’s best pass defense. In Carroll’s perfect world Seattle might rush for more than 95 yards. But Seattle had 4.0 per attempt, and Chris Carson had 21 yards on three attempts on the final touchdown drive that moved the ball and kept the clock running (or forced L.A. to use its timeouts). It felt like the running game was just enough to make a difference, which is what Seattle will need in the postseason."


You will not see many if any 300+ 4td games. You will see more of the 200 yards 2-3 tds high complt % games. Which is what we got this last game, adn what PC wants

So the if that is not elite to you then take it up with PC. And FYi going by PCs definition Wilson was elite this last game.

Elite = top 10% of all starting NFL QBs, or top 3-4 best over the course of a season.

Hawkpower":3087inru said:

Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.

Click to expand...

I think a lot of those funks are hits catching up to him. He takes a lot more than either of those 2 QBs

John63":1q6iz7po said:

renofox":1q6iz7po said:

John63":1q6iz7po said:

renofox":1q6iz7po said:

RW is struggling - to play at the ELITE level of which we know he is capable.

Even while struggling, he is playing at an above-average level for NFL QBs. BUT, he is playing at below his average, especially on 3rd downs which is the most impactful down for QB performance.

The eye test and the stats both prove this.

RW seems to have stretches of not-elite play every year, some longer than others. This year the stretch lasted longer than normal but it looks like his play is improving and will be back to elite level by the time the Seahawks hit the playoffs.

Click to expand...

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

Click to expand...

Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7

Click to expand...

Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.

Click to expand...

As I said "Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done."

https://www.footballdb.com/players/russell-wilson-wilsoru01

If you want to do a deep stat dive, feel free. I find it boring and unnecessary to form an opinion. It is usually used by people to buttress their opinion, but I find it redundant as stats can be presented and interpreted to support both sides of any argument. Using a stat to illustrate a point is one thing. Battles using walls of stats is another.

Hawkpower":12cx5y5o said:

Russ plays elite football at times....sometimes long glorious stretches of time that allow us to throw the MVP moniker around.

He also gets into funks where he struggles. Moreso than you see with guys like Mahomes and Rodgers IMO.

When hes on, hes as good as there is. But the lack of consistency, to me, keeps him from being a top 3 QB. Doesnt mean he isnt the best weve ever had, Russ is a DANG good QB and I am glad we have him.

Click to expand...

Here is the thing... it's not all about Russ... if the O is struggling like at times this year it did but because of injury on the O line or not having a run game cause all the backs are hurt... these are all factors... yeah maybe Russ tried to do too much at times forcing the long ball and holding the ball to long thats legit but at this point they have adjusted to that and they are healthy... so should Russ be held to an elite status? I think we will see that his play is elite even though they are not scoring 37 points a game...

Just my take...
\
LTH

Yo look at him in the lakers jersey with the weird black turtleneck thingy underneath. Dudes struggling. But he still plays football OK.

renofox":2puc5sfx said:

John63":2puc5sfx said:

renofox":2puc5sfx said:

John63":2puc5sfx said:

The question is what is your definition of elite play?

Is it 4 td and 300+ yards every game, in which case no Qb is elite

So first define Elite. Then we can have the discussion

Click to expand...

Elite for a QB is not easily or primarily measured by stats. It consists of making productive plays on a consistent basis, performing at a high level when it matters (3rd downs, 4th quarters), and minimizing plays that hurt your team (avoidable turnovers and sacks, bad throws).

In the second half of this season, RW is not playing anywhere near his normal level. Yes, he did have a very good 2nd half against the Rams but that has not been the norm. If you've watched the games and can't see it, I'm unable to educate you. Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done.

3rd down passer rating, 2020 - 76.0
3rd down passer rating, 2019 - 98.2
3rd down passer rating, 2018 - 113.7

Click to expand...

Well that's great, but we need more info example what are the avg yard needed for a first on the 3rd down. I am betting it iis higher this year.

Click to expand...

As I said "Not into bandying stats, or playing other stupid games, so I'll give you one (that is among the most relevant) and I'm done."

https://www.footballdb.com/players/russell-wilson-wilsoru01

If you want to do a deep stat dive, feel free. I find it boring and unnecessary to form an opinion. It is usually used by people to buttress their opinion, but I find it redundant as stats can be presented and interpreted to support both sides of any argument. Using a stat to illustrate a point is one thing. Battles using walls of stats is another.

Click to expand...

oh so for you 3rd and 2 is the same as 3rd and 15.

It's hard for me to tell if it's Russ or something else. It doesn't seem like guys are winning on routes on a consistent basis in the amount of time Russ has to throw. When I watch KC or GB games I see guys running wide open and a bunch of easy throws for Mahomes and Rodgers to get into a rhythm. I'm glad Shotty is running more 3 step drops and quick hitters, but I want to see a lot more pick plays, like the brilliant one to Hollister to beat the Rams. KC and GB spam the opponent with those.