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Firmly believe Pete behind Russell's Struggles

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    SoulfishHawk
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  • TheLegendOfBoom wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Was Pete also behind Russell's struggles mid season when he turned the ball over 10 times in five games?

    I know everyone fell in love with Let Russ Cook Russell, but that's not sustainable once defenses (good defenses) figured out what Russell and the offense was doing.

    I'm not crazy about how the offense is playing either, but I DEFINITELY like this version of the Hawks with a much better defense and a balanced offense that can crank it up when they need to in the playoffs.

    Then an offense that relies on it's QB to have to score 30+ points a game because the defense is so terrible. Not sure how that's a good recipe for success in January.

    If Wilson struggled against the Giants, Jets, Washington, Rams, Niners, Arizona, Eagles, and Bills, suffice it to say, that just means, it isn’t going to get any easier.

    Wilson will most likely struggle in playoffs as well and Seattle will struggle to run the ball.

    It doesn’t get any easier on defense, fellas.

    It doesn’t matter if Wilson is struggling.

    If he’s struggling, all it means is he is not good enough.

    Can you honestly say you are 100 percent comfortable with this offense moving forward?

    Wilson may not even be a Top 5 QB right now in playoffs:

    1. Rodgers
    2. Mahomes
    3. Allen
    4. Jackson
    5. Brady

    The way Wilson has been struggling, consistently, late in the seasons, he’s not even Top 5 in my rankings right now.

    Wilson better get better quickly cause yeah, after a while, blaming coaches become tiresome, Wilson needs to put his football distractions to the side and get better, because it does NOT get easier!

    Win or go home!

    Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey are coming for Wilson!



    Wilson struggled in the Bills and Giants game. That's it. Even in the Washington game, his QBR was 94. His passer rating in the remaining games were good to great.

    Even Josh Allen, Brady, and Jackson have had average stretches during the season. If you think otherwise, then you clearly have some other type of bias towards Wilson. Because it's not based on facts or even stats
    Scorpion05
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Mahomes is playing better football than Wilson. Going farther in the playoffs. And will likely go farther this year.

    Nobody outside of Seattle would put Wilson over Mahomes. Likely a fifth of our fans would not.

    Ranking Wilson over Mahomes takes a lot of mental gymnastics. Maybe Wilson is the better QB.

    But Wilson+Carroll < Mahomes+Reid by almost any measure in the past few years.

    And there is little chance that Wilson+Carroll goes farther in the playoffs than Mahomes+Reid. Almost zero.

    Maybe Wilson COULD be a better QB than Mahomes under another coach. But this year, Mahomes in his system is better than Wilson in his. Not even sure what you could dispute about that.



    It really doesn't take a lot of mental gymnastics. Mahomes has the better O-line, better offensive scheme, and has arguably been outplayed by Wilson in the last 2 seasons.

    Mahomes would crumble behind an average O-line. And if you believe he would have the same level of success with Bevel or Schotty, I have a bridge to sell you.

    I do agree few outside of Seattle would put Wilson ahead of Mahomes. But those people don't watch Seattle games and are more likely to fall into narratives and biases. Let's not pretend as if NFL analysis is fair and objective. Most fans follow football and stats on a surface level. They don't look at film, they don't analyze QBs based on situation.

    Come back to me when Mahomes has to CARRY a team. His team is a playoff team without him and always has been. Next
    Scorpion05
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  • OP.

    Yes, and no. It's a strategy. A style of play choice if you will.

    Pete had to neuter the offense to protect his defense.

    Yes, Russ turned the ball over too much during mid-season which expedited the process.

    But you have to ask the question. Why was Russ turning it over so much? He was pressing, feeling like he had to score every time he touched the ball, due to being the QB for the worst defense in NFL history.

    The offense has to protect the defense, because they are incapable of doing it on their own. They have to rope-a-dope, and lull opponents into keeping the score down. Then unleash Wilson in the 4th and win the game.

    Norton is absolutely still terrible going against opponents that are running 2 min. Dwayne Haskins absolutely roasted them once the Hawks built a lead. The signs are still there. Pete is doing an amazing job of masking his teams
    weaknesses. And doing what is necessary to win the football game. As ugly as it may look at times.

    It's generally dumb to do this for a typical NFL team, but for Pete, and the simple schemes he implements on both offense and defense, it's what is best for him. That isn't coming from me. Ask any NFL scout, film nerd, or Pete himself. They keep it simple so the players can play fast. But for long stretches it will be tough sledding due to predictability.

    I know the result of this strategy. 1 and done. Unless you get incredible luck, or have an all-time great defense.

    Marty ball just doesn't win championships. You're consistently good every year, but you do not give enough margin of error for the offense to consistently beat playoff opponents that play all out, and look to score from the jump.

    That being said, this is an interesting field in the NFC. the QBs all stink except for Rodgers. Brees is washed, though Peyton gets very creative and makes it work anyway with a mix of Taysom Hill. The rest of the field are not established, mediocre, or downright terrible at QB.

    So maybe this is the year? I'm not holding my breath. But if it were to happen this would be the year.

    What win's super bowls? All time great Dominant Offenses -and-or- Dominant Defenses.

    The Seahawks are no longer dominant on offense, due to the neutering. They have the weapons to be that. WR, RB, TE. They are absolutely loaded at the skill positions. So they could be in the right system, not this one.

    They are not dominant on defense, I think? I say, "I think" because I have to actually see them against a top offensive opponent to confirm it. Like New Orleans, and Green Bay. They have faced a slate of absolute scrubs at QB for nearly 2 months, so we have no idea where this defense is at, other than they have definitely improved. DJ Reed & Carlos Dunlap upgraded their personnel, filling their biggest holes. We just don't know by how much they have actually improved. Need a legit, top flight offensive opponent to show us.

    In a weird year, New Orleans, and GB might both get upset, and the Seahawks with great luck, end up ducking both and host the NFCCG. I would not be surprised to see TB go to GB and beat them. CHI pulls off the upset in NO, and things get cRaZy.
    Fade
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  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    TheLegendOfBoom wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Was Pete also behind Russell's struggles mid season when he turned the ball over 10 times in five games?

    I know everyone fell in love with Let Russ Cook Russell, but that's not sustainable once defenses (good defenses) figured out what Russell and the offense was doing.

    I'm not crazy about how the offense is playing either, but I DEFINITELY like this version of the Hawks with a much better defense and a balanced offense that can crank it up when they need to in the playoffs.

    Then an offense that relies on it's QB to have to score 30+ points a game because the defense is so terrible. Not sure how that's a good recipe for success in January.

    If Wilson struggled against the Giants, Jets, Washington, Rams, Niners, Arizona, Eagles, and Bills, suffice it to say, that just means, it isn’t going to get any easier.

    Wilson will most likely struggle in playoffs as well and Seattle will struggle to run the ball.

    It doesn’t get any easier on defense, fellas.

    It doesn’t matter if Wilson is struggling.

    If he’s struggling, all it means is he is not good enough.

    Can you honestly say you are 100 percent comfortable with this offense moving forward?

    Wilson may not even be a Top 5 QB right now in playoffs:

    1. Rodgers
    2. Mahomes
    3. Allen
    4. Jackson
    5. Brady

    The way Wilson has been struggling, consistently, late in the seasons, he’s not even Top 5 in my rankings right now.

    Wilson better get better quickly cause yeah, after a while, blaming coaches become tiresome, Wilson needs to put his football distractions to the side and get better, because it does NOT get easier!

    Win or go home!

    Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey are coming for Wilson!


    Okay facts time

    Wilson 9th in yards, 6th complt%, 3rd in Tds, 7th Qb rating, 8th QBR. 1of only 3 in top 10 in all those categories.

    Hmm seems your list is well wrong
    John63
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  • Fade wrote:OP.

    Yes, and no. It's a strategy. A style of play choice if you will.

    Pete had to neuter the offense to protect his defense.

    Yes, Russ turned the ball over too much during mid-season which expedited the process.

    But you have to ask the question. Why was Russ turning it over so much? He was pressing, feeling like he had to score every time he touched the ball, due to being the QB for the worst defense in NFL history.

    The offense has to protect the defense, because they are incapable of doing it on their own. They have to rope-a-dope, and lull opponents into keeping the score down. Then unleash Wilson in the 4th and win the game.

    Norton is absolutely still terrible going against opponents that are running 2 min. Dwayne Haskins absolutely roasted them once the Hawks built a lead. The signs are still there. Pete is doing an amazing job of masking his teams
    weaknesses. And doing what is necessary to win the football game. As ugly as it may look at times.

    It's generally dumb to do this for a typical NFL team, but for Pete, and the simple schemes he implements on both offense and defense, it's what is best for him. That isn't coming from me. Ask any NFL scout, film nerd, or Pete himself. They keep it simple so the players can play fast. But for long stretches it will be tough sledding due to predictability.

    I know the result of this strategy. 1 and done. Unless you get incredible luck, or have an all-time great defense.

    Marty ball just doesn't win championships. You're consistently good every year, but you do not give enough margin of error for the offense to consistently beat playoff opponents that play all out, and look to score from the jump.

    That being said, this is an interesting field in the NFC. the QBs all stink except for Rodgers. Brees is washed, though Peyton gets very creative and makes it work anyway with a mix of Taysom Hill. The rest of the field are not established, mediocre, or downright terrible at QB.

    So maybe this is the year? I'm not holding my breath. But if it were to happen this would be the year.

    What win's super bowls? All time great Dominant Offenses -and-or- Dominant Defenses.

    The Seahawks are no longer dominant on offense, due to the neutering. They have the weapons to be that. WR, RB, TE. They are absolutely loaded at the skill positions. So they could be in the right system, not this one.

    They are not dominant on defense, I think? I say, "I think" because I have to actually see them against a top offensive opponent to confirm it. Like New Orleans, and Green Bay. They have faced a slate of absolute scrubs at QB for nearly 2 months, so we have no idea where this defense is at, other than they have definitely improved. DJ Reed & Carlos Dunlap upgraded their personnel, filling their biggest holes. We just don't know by how much they have actually improved. Need a legit, top flight offensive opponent to show us.

    In a weird year, New Orleans, and GB might both get upset, and the Seahawks with great luck, end up ducking both and host the NFCCG. I would not be surprised to see TB go to GB and beat them. CHI pulls off the upset in NO, and things get cRaZy.



    Great post agree, the question is has PC learned his lesson form post seasons past and now let the offense off the leash.
    John63
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    TheLegendOfBoom wrote:
    Wilson better get better quickly cause yeah, after a while, blaming coaches become tiresome, Wilson needs to put his football distractions to the side and get better, because it does NOT get easier!


    See I think this is who Russell is, a top 5 and at times falls off to more of a top 10 QB.

    I never bought into the let Russ cook Russell of the first five games, I knew that had more to do with a VERY polished and experienced offense being way ahead of average to below average defenses that had ZERO time to practice and prepare because of covid.

    Far more than some conscious change of offensive philosophy, or Russell all of a sudden turning on a superhero switch.

    I love Russell, I'm glad he's our franchise QB for the next 10 years on his way to the Hall of Fame. But this is who he is, a smart prepared elusive and clutch QB that can manage a game and run around and make explosive plays when you need him too.

    So he and others can tell us all they want about how he wants to be the greatest QB of all time and win MVP's every year, but IMO that's probably never going to happen, because he's not Aaron Rodgers, he's not Drew Brees, he's not Tom Brady in his prime. Guys that can carry the load game in, game out, year in, year out.

    He needs that run game and defense, and the good news is he has that now.


    Well at least we are under no illusions that you don't put your feelings and bias first, ahead of facts.

    Russ can make every throw. The first 5-6 weeks of the season was indicative of great O-line protection (which is what Rodgers, Brees, etc. gets), and him making pin point accurate throws.

    The actual FACTS, shows that Seattle was passing on neutral downs more compared to past years. In fact, even with a decent running game we are still statistically a pass first team. The running game has only been dominant in ONE game, the Washington game. And in that game, Russ accounted for over 40 of those yards.

    Also, can you name ONE great QB who has gone far without a running game or defense. Name one, since you're not at all biased. You can't possibly love Russell if you also have an agenda to ignore any and all objective facts that contradict your point.


    Why do you and everyone else keep holding up the first five weeks of the season as the holy grail of proof, and not the middle of the season, or the end of the season?

    Kinda disingenuous don't you think to not use the sum of the whole of this season, and the past 10 years for that matter as to who Russell is as QB?

    You wanna blame Pete for Russell not playing as well as he did the first part of the season? Go ahead, but IMO it's you and others that aren't being honest with yourselves.......because if you were you'd stop typing "WELL WHAT ABOUT THE FIRST FIVE GAMES!!"

    As a whole Russell is a fantastic elite QB in the league, but he cannot carry a team on his own, and is far more effective with a good run game and solid defense.

    So to just allow him and the offense to be some high flying one dimensional offense throwing the ball all over the place risking turnovers is not a very smart strategy come December and January.

    I also find it hilarious that people are calling me out for being a Russell hater, but this entire thread is yet another Pete hate thread.

    Hypocrite much?


    Because unlike yourself, my goal isn't confirmation bias.

    I have been on both ends of the spectrum on this forum. I've criticized Russ when he played poorly, and I've praised him. I look at the surrounding circumstances and analyze it accordingly. You don't.

    The first 5 weeks, defenses played the offense differently. And the O-line was healthy. Is that correct or not?

    During the middle of the season, we had O-line injuries. Is that true or not? Just answer the question. Stop filtering things through your bias. Do you think having DAMIEN LEWIS AT CENTER is a good move? Did Mahomes, Rodgers, or Josh Allen have to deal with something so drastic, while having no drop off in their performance? No matter the injuries, we've always had a chance because of # 3

    How many games has Brandon Shell missed? Did any of the other top QBs in the league, deal with average or below average protection at any point in the season, for as long of a stretch as Wilson? Are you arguing Kyle Fuller is good?

    What exactly, prevents Russ from carrying a team? The LOB is gone. How has he not proved he can carry a team?

    Do you think he is not smart enough to carry a team? Too small of a brain?? Do you think he's too short? Just say it.

    Wilson PROVED he can carry an average defense, ZERO running game, POOR special teams, and average receivers to a 9-7 record in 2017. He was one game away from making the playoffs, while also leading the team in rushing. What evidence have you seen, to show he can't lead a team? He scores 35 TDs every season, he has 513 Rushing yards this season behind Carson. This season by himself, he has accounted for 4700 yards and 42 TDs. How in the heck is that not carrying a team? For the love of God, be objective.
    Scorpion05
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    LTH wrote:

    I just think its more complicated than it being all on Russ... I think they just need to get back to running the ball that to me is the issue... If they can run the ball effectively and pick their shots down field they will be ok... as far as the D I'm not worried about it...LTH


    I didn't say all, I said I'd put it about 80%.

    If you or others think it's less, great. But it's not 100% Pete that's for sure. This offense is a three headed monster, Pete, Russ and Schotty. All three are in every single gameplan meeting all week installing the week's offense.


    It's not a 3 headed monster. If you count russ you need to count the other ten. Plus playing is separate from coaching from Playcalling.


    If you think this, then you don't understand how NFL football works.

    During the week game film is reviewed, issues are brought up to make notes to correct during team and position grouping meetings. Then the coach and coordinators meet to install next week's gameplan.

    Of which now Russell is 100% a part of, not the other 10 offensive players. This is normal for any franchise QB of Russell's stature of competency. He is involved in the week to week scheming, gameplanning and playcalling. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a part of his contract negotiations during the last extension.

    He wanted to get paid and he wanted a bigger role within the offense and how it's run, and he got it.


    Shut the hell up. I coach baseball. And I'm getting in football to. At the high school level. I know exactly how it works and you sound even dumber trying to explain it to me. See you later private largent not a sergeant.

    Oh did you serve? I wanna know now if I can clear you to have Sergeant in your title? If you did cool, but if you didnt...dont say another word to me because you wont get any respect from me. Ever. Period. I was a Sergeant in the Marines so your choice of title is a little odd to me.
    jamescasey1124
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  • Fade wrote:OP.

    Yes, and no. It's a strategy. A style of play choice if you will.

    Pete had to neuter the offense to protect his defense.

    Yes, Russ turned the ball over too much during mid-season which expedited the process.

    But you have to ask the question. Why was Russ turning it over so much? He was pressing, feeling like he had to score every time he touched the ball, due to being the QB for the worst defense in NFL history.

    The offense has to protect the defense, because they are incapable of doing it on their own. They have to rope-a-dope, and lull opponents into keeping the score down. Then unleash Wilson in the 4th and win the game.

    Norton is absolutely still terrible going against opponents that are running 2 min. Dwayne Haskins absolutely roasted them once the Hawks built a lead. The signs are still there. Pete is doing an amazing job of masking his teams
    weaknesses. And doing what is necessary to win the football game. As ugly as it may look at times.

    It's generally dumb to do this for a typical NFL team, but for Pete, and the simple schemes he implements on both offense and defense, it's what is best for him. That isn't coming from me. Ask any NFL scout, film nerd, or Pete himself. They keep it simple so the players can play fast. But for long stretches it will be tough sledding due to predictability.

    I know the result of this strategy. 1 and done. Unless you get incredible luck, or have an all-time great defense.

    Marty ball just doesn't win championships. You're consistently good every year, but you do not give enough margin of error for the offense to consistently beat playoff opponents that play all out, and look to score from the jump.

    That being said, this is an interesting field in the NFC. the QBs all stink except for Rodgers. Brees is washed, though Peyton gets very creative and makes it work anyway with a mix of Taysom Hill. The rest of the field are not established, mediocre, or downright terrible at QB.

    So maybe this is the year? I'm not holding my breath. But if it were to happen this would be the year.

    What win's super bowls? All time great Dominant Offenses -and-or- Dominant Defenses.

    The Seahawks are no longer dominant on offense, due to the neutering. They have the weapons to be that. WR, RB, TE. They are absolutely loaded at the skill positions. So they could be in the right system, not this one.

    They are not dominant on defense, I think? I say, "I think" because I have to actually see them against a top offensive opponent to confirm it. Like New Orleans, and Green Bay. They have faced a slate of absolute scrubs at QB for nearly 2 months, so we have no idea where this defense is at, other than they have definitely improved. DJ Reed & Carlos Dunlap upgraded their personnel, filling their biggest holes. We just don't know by how much they have actually improved. Need a legit, top flight offensive opponent to show us.

    In a weird year, New Orleans, and GB might both get upset, and the Seahawks with great luck, end up ducking both and host the NFCCG. I would not be surprised to see TB go to GB and beat them. CHI pulls off the upset in NO, and things get cRaZy.



    This was what I was eluding too and great post, I never said Russell Struggled, he was sailing passes and not trying to throw into windows because Pete wants no risks or mistakes on offense. He was not playing with swagger for 3 quarters, he was playing not to make mistakes. That's on Pete's direction of the offense.

    I take that as he repeatedly mention no turnovers is the reason we won and protecting the ball in his press conference yesterday. That wasn't casual chatter.
    chris98251
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:He has been carrying the team on his back his entire career in MANY of their wins, if not most. But let's ignore it. Because it's Russ.

    Russell is an odd QB in more than a few ways. Probably the oddest is that, yes he has pretty much carried the team since the late LOB years, but he does it in a way that doesn't look like those other QBs that everyone accepts as all time greats. That really is the crux of any Russell debate either internally amongst Seattle fans or externally in the national media narrative. If Russell plays another 10 years at a similar clip his numbers will be absolutely amazing. He will be in the Hall and the PERCEPTION of him will not change for years down the road when looking at his career in its entirety. Everyone who needs to see him look like those other QBs got really excited after the first few games, but it was never sustainable.
    OrangeGravy
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