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Its not Russ, its not Pete, It wasnt Schotty or Bevell...

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  • Maybe its just the ultimate embodiment of the unique character of this team.

    Not to create yet another 'who's fault is it ' thread, but i wanted to post a possible scenario around how and why we are where we are with the team today that doesnt necessarily 'incriminate' anyone, but rather looks at the situation as just a case of trying to work through the gifts and challenges of a very unique circumstance and rare player at QB.

    I think we can all use a bit less of the polarizing talk when it comes to Pete vs Schotty (or whoever the OC will now be ) vs Russ and the blame game for who is responsible when we dont succeed. I've certainly been guilty of going down the rabbit hole when it comes to trying to untangle the mess of our season and the last several years. But I think at the end of the day, the reality is that there isnt a 'BAD GUY' in this plot. just a bunch of guys commited to trying to figure out the best way to win.And they are much closer to what's actually going on than we are. The best we can do is look at game film.

    Everyone is due their fair share of praise for the success we have seen and responsibility for the challenges.

    The two constants in this game are Russ and Pete. The OC, interchangeable - although it would be great if we could get some consistency at the position, the fact that we havent found that is beginning to look like evidence to me for what might really be going on. The team has been trying to figure itself out for a while now and i think what we just finally saw this season was hopefully the last phase of a long, 4 year exploration.

    I honestly believe that since the collapse of the LOB and the departure of Lynch, there has been a concerted effort to try to transition the team to RW, both from a leadership perspective, which i think he has done, but also from a scheme perspective, which to date we have struggled with. But ultimately what does that transition to a passing offense look like for such a unique QB.

    He's similar in height to D Brees but doesnt have Brees's savant like ability to diagnose a defense and hit 10 different WR a game consistently. Brees overcomes the challenge of maybe not being able to SEE everything by being so enmeshed in the plays that he can run the O with his eyes closed and hit his receivers anywhere on the field so long as they are where they are designed to be. He has a rare and uncanny abiliity in this sense and i'd wager that if there was a NEXT GEN stat that could measure his brain's ability to read and react, / process data, he'd be off the charts.

    Russ has come to defeat his issues with his physical stature by moving outside the pocket, releasing the ball and diagnosing plays from a deeper drop, and when all else fails, punishing a defense with is escapability and timely runs. Like Brees, he's incredibly accurate on the long ball and overall in general, when he has the opportunity to see where he's going with the ball. Russ, an uncanny pocket sense. Drew, an uncanny field sense. Again - my observation, not set in stone fact.

    But given the above, an offense built around a passing game will by default need to look a bit different for Drew than for Russ. To say that Russ can do what Drew can from a shear technical ability , is in my opinon just as foolish as someone expecting Brees to be able to do what Russ can (nobody in the league can do what he can). And thats not throwing shade on Russ, he's fully capable of executing an offense. Its more praise for Drew because the dude is just that good.

    The question is, what does that magical passing game look like for our QB?

    Well...

    It was apparent that the OC we had when we were built around a legendary defense and sledghammer in ballet shoes in Beastmode, no longer fit the profile for a team that was moving to a more aggressive passing game. He was let go.

    What did that more aggressive passing game mean? Nobody knew until this year because nobody had seen RW with reliable running backs and a philosophy that was built around his arm moreso than his legs. We'd come to know him as a QB that could make something out of nothing when the plays didnt go according to plan. He built his legend on improv - turning nothing into a mile long highlight reel of spectacular plays.

    But i think MAYBE at some point the improv act which had been just a tool for Russ, whether because of a poor play design, not being able to see receivers, not being able to process reads quickly, or being conditioned through years of HAVING to be ready to break from the scheme due to poor protection and do his own thing, became his default style of play.

    So now, enter Schottenheimer, a guy, for all the criticism leveled at him, showed that he could pull together some pretty effectve schemes. I dont know how much responsibility to assign the OC or the QB for the inability to effectively implement a passing game that was diverse in terms of its range of routes and combinations, but the results... well, we saw them. however, i dont think its s a stretch to assume that RW is a contributing factor. He cant NOT be for the adjustments that have to be made for his height alone (deeper drops, slightly longer developing routes). And that's not bashing him at all, it just is what it is.

    The question beyond that is how much of his natural tendency to want to move out of the pocket to see routes is absolutely necessary (ie , how much CAN he see at a 3 or 5 step drop from under center or a catch and release from shotgun) vs it just now being how he plays. If its how he's been conditioned to play, then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be. If its vision (he CANT see the field in certain instances) and his ability to analyze a read, post snap iand trust it is severely impaired because his defuault reaction for 9 years has been to get the ball and move, then that's a bit more difficult to overcome. And it could also certainly by both - and likely is.

    Either way, now at year 10, then the offensive strategy needs to shift. If he can get his discipline back, he should eventually be able to make the reads and get the ball out quickly. And again, i dont know whether what we saw this year from him (patting the ball, the double clutches, the indecisiveness) was a failure in being able to drop back and 1,2,3 read, react and get the ball out to the open guy in the flow of the offense, or if t was that he was trying to do it but couldnt see, and thus was constantly forced to break pocket and look deeper, which right off the bat negates the playcall and puts the chances of the down succeeding on RW and a given wr's ability to read eachother and connect. however, from what i've seen on tape over 16 weeks, i can say comfortably that although you can criticize Schotty fro maybe not adapting in game with a reasonable quickness or not calling up enough plays to RB's, there were A LOT of plays left on the field. And it could just be that the disconnect between PC and Schotty that led to his firing was a desire on Schotty's part to keep trying down the road of getting RW to function more effectively as a complete passer in the flow of the offense and plays called, getting him to use the whole field. Whereas Pete sees the best path to move the offense and RW forward being to stop trying to push him to do what he now obviously struggles to do and supplement the short pass game quick reads and a more methodical progression down the field, with a more schematically diverse and intentional run game.

    And that run game CAN get us where we want to go. If its effective, it sets up all of those incredible passes Russ is known for. On its own, it can be lethal either by virtue of its diversity or its factor of intimidation. Which, depends on who is running the rock. The one thing i will say thats a bit concerning is that even if Carson comes back, between he and Penny, we have a back that is lightning quick through the hole and a bulldozer, but struggles to break long runs and a RB who dances too much in finding the holes, but can take it to the house on any given play if he breaks the first line of defense. Because they are so different, WHEN we deploy them in a game can be a tell as to what we want to do. If chris is in we are a bit more diverse, although he doesnt have great long or edge speed. When Penny is in, its likely going outside. What we need to really help Russ is either a scheme that can leverage both styles effectively, or a different back altogether. Someone like Jones in GB or conceptually the tandems that Cleveland or KC run. In the case of KC and Cleveland, either back can go inside or outside, but they each have their obvious strengths.

    If you cant draw up short to middle pass plays, you have to develop a combination of longer developing passes and screens with a FAST running attack that is effective on the edges early in games and a PUNISHING one up the middle late. Gaining 5 yards consistently on swing plays, and runs off tackle forces defenses to play the width of the field. I think its why we saw the hawks constantly trying to establish the edge running game even though they knew they could reliably get 3.5 ypc between the tackles. without a consistent threat to spread the d-line and backers out, the field gets small for both runs and passes. And even harder for a shorter QB to fit the ball into tight openings.

    The running game, and a well designed one that stretches the defense and punishes it seems to me to not be simply the preference of a head coach, but if any of the above is remotely true, pretty much necessary in getting RW back on the track to success.

    this post is wayyyy too long but thats only because the challenges the team now faces (and i guess has faced all along) are complex and not as cut and dry as letting Russ cook, or keeping Pete out of a playbook, Russ being broken, or the OC being a dud. There's a ton that Pete and the coordinators are looking at on O to unlock the potential of this team. Some of it is in just unlocking (not unleashing) Russ, some of it is scheme, some of it, personnel and all of it doable.

    We've been quick to condemn coaches and players for the failures to date but in all honesty, like everything else about the franchise, the difficulty in finding the ultimate success over the last few years is like everything else around this team, due to the fact that the circumstances are just sooo unique. Starting with the QB. And thats a blessing and a curse. But it is what it is. Cant believe i'm about to say this but it genuinely in this case really is all about the process and evolving.

    I'm confident we will get there.
    keasley45
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  • Very reasonable post and points. I think you are particularly correct about it not being about Pete vs. Russ, but rather how Pete plus Russ can continue to find success. I also agree completely that there were plays to be had on the field that we just weren't taking for some reason.

    keasley45 wrote:then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be

    I don't think Pete would be comfortable with Russ throwing blind, per say. Timing routes in general and throwing WRs open is okay, and there is a lot of safe stuff you can do in the short/intermediate passing game - unless the ball getting tipped by a defensive lineman is a major concern. I'm not sure why we weren't more heavily utilizing TE/WR slants in particular. We saw a couple of nice ones to DK and Olsen and then that was mostly it.
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  • It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."
    Fade
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  • Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

    S.O.
    keasley45
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  • Great post, I think you have some very valid points and I stickied because everyone should read this.
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  • But I didn't see you mention the perfume?
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  • The Saints blocking scheme is set up to create lanes for Brees, we don't do pass protection we maul and hope no holding calls.

    Our line has some of the worst back peddle I have ever seen and it is year in and year out, these guys drive and wait for guys to get to them, rarely see them shadow out DE's.

    That's why Wilson has to wait for a clearing for short routes and may not see the open guys we all see.

    He is also looking for the splash play Pete likes.
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  • Read the piece in the Athletic by Schiel Kapadia if yiu can. He references statistics that show that Seattle's o line was well in the top half of the league in pass pro. And the metric basically determines whether an o line can provide reasonable protection for what's deemed adequate time for a qb to get the ball out ( based on league avg). So the narrative about the hawks not being able to protect russel is false.

    Kapadia also notes that Russ looked thoroughly confused in trying to run the offense and that his passer rating got worse throughout the season even when he had adequate protection.

    And as far as blocking is concerned. The only teams seattle really struggled to protect against were the highly ranked defenses in the last half of the season. If we don't use the eye test ( which can't always determine from the telecast when the ball should have come out in a qb's progression) and use the metrics the pros use to determine ewhether there was a reliable pocket long enough for the avg qb to release the ball, the fault for taking so many sacks begins to shift to the qb. The ball needs to come out. And the film review that was posted in the forum by 8 forget who shows that. The tendency to hold the ball and appear confused was not unique to the rams game.

    Was he confused because he didn't like the call and didn't want to throw? Did Schotty's gameplans not give him confidence? Because he missed a read? Because he was shell shocked by pressure, or fear of the INTs?

    As to the lanes o lines can open. It's a catch 22. Lanes are a result of a defense being forced to protect the entire field. If you aren't a threat to hit the edges in your run game or short game, a d line can be a bit more compact in their sets. If that's how the d line is playing, then it's going to be hard in basically 2.5 seconds for even the most gifted o line to shift them to create lanes. If you want to pass more reliably, it helps to run reliably.

    As a reference, GB, which I think everyone would assume is a passing team, ran the ball more than we did.

    The lanes are more a byproduct of an offense that forces the D to open up. Which is why it's imperative that we have a legit run game to keep defenses honest and help the o line to establish throwing lanes. Especially if your QB isn't 6'4.
    keasley45
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  • I also don't understand the consistent assignment of blame to Pete when it's been established over and over again that Russ was given the obvious read, the obvious open wr, and didn't throw or threw the wrong guy. That's what needs to be figured out.

    But to say that Russ, trying to pick up a first down, has a guy right in front of him, with first down yardage, decides to toss up a 50/50 ball because Pete told him basically to shun continuing drives for triple covered bombs... we can do better than that.

    Pete has been on record throughout the season and after the playoff loss stating that the offense needs to 'take the underneath stuff' and not just throw bombs all over the place.
    keasley45
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  • I didn't read the whole o. post, but Brian's offenses put up good numbers. I never liked Bevell, so it was him, but Brian's a scapegoat.

    It's Pete. It's hard to sit here and criticize a guy who just won 12 games, but they lost pretty decisively to the Lambs and they beat up a lot of bad and average teams this year.
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  • Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

    This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.
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  • keasley45 wrote:Read the piece in the Athletic by Schiel Kapadia if yiu can. He references statistics that show that Seattle's o line was well in the top half of the league in pass pro. And the metric basically determines whether an o line can provide reasonable protection for what's deemed adequate time for a qb to get the ball out ( based on league avg). So the narrative about the hawks not being able to protect russel is false.

    Kapadia also notes that Russ looked thoroughly confused in trying to run the offense and that his passer rating got worse throughout the season even when he had adequate protection.

    And as far as blocking is concerned. The only teams seattle really struggled to protect against were the highly ranked defenses in the last half of the season. If we don't use the eye test ( which can't always determine from the telecast when the ball should have come out in a qb's progression) and use the metrics the pros use to determine ewhether there was a reliable pocket long enough for the avg qb to release the ball, the fault for taking so many sacks begins to shift to the qb. The ball needs to come out. And the film review that was posted in the forum by 8 forget who shows that. The tendency to hold the ball and appear confused was not unique to the rams game.

    Was he confused because he didn't like the call and didn't want to throw? Did Schotty's gameplans not give him confidence? Because he missed a read? Because he was shell shocked by pressure, or fear of the INTs?

    As to the lanes o lines can open. It's a catch 22. Lanes are a result of a defense being forced to protect the entire field. If you aren't a threat to hit the edges in your run game or short game, a d line can be a bit more compact in their sets. If that's how the d line is playing, then it's going to be hard in basically 2.5 seconds for even the most gifted o line to shift them to create lanes. If you want to pass more reliably, it helps to run reliably.

    As a reference, GB, which I think everyone would assume is a passing team, ran the ball more than we did.

    The lanes are more a byproduct of an offense that forces the D to open up. Which is why it's imperative that we have a legit run game to keep defenses honest and help the o line to establish throwing lanes. Especially if your QB isn't 6'4.


    Sorry, I can see players play and don't need a hack to tell me what to think, Our O line has really had footwork and shadow ability Wilson makes them better and worse at the same time with his mobility.

    People need to watch more and understand what they are seeing, not what a hack tells them to think.

    Again excuses for passing lanes, the Saints have been doing it for years with Brees. You clear an lane by moving or shading defender to go or be moved to an area, Brees gets the ball out quickly and uses underneath routes and crossing patterns also, we rarely do.
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  • The idea that an effective running game with speed on the edges doesn't help to open passing lanes is, well, I don't know.

    It's simple football. Same as when a defense doesn't believe you can run the ball effectively, they drop into heavy coverage packages that paralyze a passing game.

    Since 2007, with the exception of 2013, the saints leading rusher over a season has not averaged less than 4.3 yards per carry.

    And kapadia is neither a hack, nor did he compile the stats that assessed the performance of the hawks o line this year. Pro statisticians did.
    keasley45
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  • And I don't disagree that they have had some lack luster games.

    But there's so much wrapped up in this that all we can do is assess each piece and try to get a grasp of the bigger picture.

    Also agree that russel helps and hurts the o line.

    And all of this is why we are where we are. Yiu cant evaluate a n o coordinator or o line if the plays aren't run as designed. Yes, Schotty could have adjusted better, AND he often called plays that shoukd have worked.

    You also can't expect a qb who in seasons past, had to run for his life to stand a chance to make a play and is hyper fearful of the int to maybe trust everything he sees.

    Nor can you blame a coach who is looking at a season where his team tried to pass themselves to success and through a tough spell and failed, for rightfully believing that guven the cluster thst the offense is and all the contributing circumstances, That the best way to calm things down and hit reset is to try to force defenses to honor our run game.
    keasley45
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  • hoxrox wrote:Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

    This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.


    agree that his preference is certainly part of the problem.
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

    S.O.



    Problem not solved, that's Fade's point.

    It is Pete, so you can spin this however you want but this is Pete's team, every nook and cranny of the organization from top to bottom is exactly in Pete's control.

    There is no solution, other than hope the stars align and we can get lucky and win another SB despite Pete's meddling in his plain vanilla predictable offensive philosophies with whoever the next yes man O-coordinator he hires is.

    Use whatever circular logic you want to, it's Pete.
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  • The iceberg moment that needs to be taken into account is the lack of ownership this team has. This is how the 49ers crashed after DeBartolo left the team.

    Pete needs a reality check and I don't know if the current ownership group will be the ones to do it.

    As for Schotty vs Bevell. Bevell was god awful, with Lynch as a running back the team was only scoring TDs on 50% of red zone trips, which was ranked around 20th. With Schotty the Hawks are up to 3rd with TDs on 73% of red zone trips. Schotty is one of the best red zone play-callers in the league, that alone should get him a second job.
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  • Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense. It is another of the Pete is a superman HC nonsense refrains, when common sense reality would tell you what you suggest is not likely or reasonable either.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but rather frankly I very much doubt you could take Pete's authority as far as you suggest. What is Pete to be accountable for anyway? His team as 'Emperor Pete' won 12 games this season and 11 last season, the team also won the NFC-W and 4 of 6 Divisional games in the toughest division in the NFL? Or is it because you'd rather see a different style O, another DC, or a different QB? I'd think for the most part the ownership of the team is quite happy with the direction of the team and with Pete, as they just renewed his contract.

    The team by most metrics is a successful football team and has some ease in acquiring FA players, you just think Pete has not become a modern coach, many would disagree.
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  • I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

    I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

    Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

    Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

    As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.
    Last edited by DarkVictory23 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • at keasley45

    That is the most intelligent well thought out post I've read on this board in 5 years...


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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

    S.O.



    Problem not solved, that's Fade's point.

    It is Pete, so you can spin this however you want but this is Pete's team, every nook and cranny of the organization from top to bottom is exactly in Pete's control.

    There is no solution, other than hope the stars align and we can get lucky and win another SB despite Pete's meddling in his plain vanilla predictable offensive philosophies with whoever the next yes man O-coordinator he hires is.

    Use whatever circular logic you want to, it's Pete.


    I was being sarcastic.

    And i dont believe its a matter of luck as to whether we succeed again or not.

    Thats the whole point of this thread. I just dont subscribe to the theory that its this persons fault, so if we just get rid of them, its fixed, r that the whole situation is hopeless because Pete, Russ or whoever the OC is isnt goiing anywhere or has little accountability.

    Folks say we got too conservative and ran too much over the 2ns half, when facts show we wtill past more than we have in the past, but less effectively

    People say that the o-line needs to be blown up, but in reality they performed better than avg.

    There are words and theories and there are facts.

    For those who think Pete is ruling with an iron glove and just wants what he wants, this past year, pete was praising the performance of Russ and Schotty, until the wheels came off. And btw, the wheels came off BEFORE Pete said anything about running more. He was responding to failure and attributing that faiklure to the fact that we werent running the ball well, and that the evidence showed that given Russ's performance, the defenses we were facing, that trying force a pass game that was floundering without a ground game, was dumb. And given what we can obviously see on tape, smart.

    To me, its also entirely logical. Not a power grab. His assessment is that given what Russ is showing, pushing a stronger rushing attack is the way to go. And given the fact that defenses lacked respect for our running game (and the odds of Russ burning them with underneath passes) enough to basically stay in cover 2 week after week, how can you argue that?

    And, he is the head coach.

    But we also cant pin it on Russ entiirely, because as much as we can get on him for the evidence that we saw week in and week out on tape of him missing read after read, we cant say for certain that Schotty did the best job of identifying what Russ was struggling with and getting plays in that worked, not just for the game, but of his QB. Its already been made clear that while we left a ton on the field in terms of plays that might have worked, we also, inexplicably didnt move the pocket well to protect Russ, call enough screens, or quick passes. Why EXACTLY? you dont know. i dont know, we dont know. The tape shows what it shows and thats a passing game that was floundering EVEN when the plays were there to be had. But Schotty certainly wasnt running Pete Carrols offense or calling plays that Pete sent in.

    Personally, if its my team and i'm giving the reigns to an OC and QB to get the team to success and they keep advocating for a pass game thats not wrking when it should, you try to fix it. And like i said, the stats dont lie, we still threw more on 1st down in the last 8 weeks of the season than we did on average in seasons past. So the narrative that Pete torpedoed the season because he pushed some ultra conservative plan and the team suffered because of it simply has no factual basis.

    Its a product of the engrained Pete v Russ v Coordinator narrative that's been here for years and lazily and inaccurately attributed to every failure the team has. From the evidence that exists, not speculation, but facts, the strategy to run more is 100% logical when assessing the performance of the team under RW and Schotty this season.
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  • DarkVictory23 wrote:I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

    I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

    Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

    Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

    As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.


    Yeah. For sure, Pete has some mind boggling clock management. It's beyond frustrating and along with his misguided challenges is enough to drive yiu crazy and cost us games for the time ours we burn and general lack of confidence it might generate from players. That needs fixing.

    I don't however know how much or to what extent he meddles in play to play calls or even selecting plays week to week. Folks are leaning on the 4th and 1 debacle last week as evidence that he is way too involved. Given what I know now, post schottenheimer and how that game was unfolding, I think it was a case of him no longer having trust in his OC or in Russ to deliver on the down, especially given that the offense was sputtering all day. Pete just wanted to kick the ball and we all know what happened to the OC after.Frankly, if it was Mr in his position, given the complete turd the offense laid over the course of the game, I wouldn't have even entertained thr conversation. You could make the case he was bring too nice.

    As to his involvement thr rest of the season? I think he for sure said to take fewer risks. But go back and wstch the film and you will see that the risk he was likely referring to weren't relative to the plays themselves, but the decisions made by russel to take an unnecessary risk OR him not being able to read disguised coverages or bail outs. The change in the 2nd half of the season came as a result of poor execution. The offense was simply stinking it up. Russ was not decisive, and the gameolan wasn't helping to improve that week over week.
    keasley45
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  • hoxrox wrote:Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

    This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.

    He has worked the entire field before. I'd like to how many times/games over his career you could say that though? Our struggles on offense with the exception of the first part of this season and the season we had zero run game, have been pretty consistent over the last 5/6 years. Something more than just the OC is off. It's impossible to make an educated guess without being inside that building unfortunately.
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  • https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/12/12/2 ... ghts-video

    Not sure if folks have seen this or not but it says a lot. The whole video is worth watching but it's honestly frustrating. I spent some time last night watching coach's tape of some of our losses and you realize quickly that we should have been 14-2 this year. The first rams loss. Ok. Division opponent. Tough. The bills game... we were just flat. But the cards and the giants games we flat gave away. Missed plays, missed reads and unnecessary, unprovoked turnovers.

    If yiu don't have the patience to watch the whole thing, FF to the 6:30 mark.
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  • This is why Pete wants to run more.
    keasley45
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  • Also valid criticism of Schotty at the 8:15 mark.

    This whole game was just a fail. Completely forgot PCs decision to punt when we were on the Giants 37.
    keasley45
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  • For all you saying it's Pete's fault, you're right. It's Pete's fault we're a perennial playoff team.

    Now, if you want to focus on the offense, teams started playing 2-high safeties against us mid-season to take away our deep game. We didn't adapt, and Russ' numbers and our scoring took a nose dive.

    Now I know Russ loves to throw the ball. I remember a certain super bowl when we were up 10 points in the 3rd quarter, Lynch was gashing a tired Wilfork and Co, but for some reason were started throwing the ball like we were down 10 and stopping the clock. Come to find out afterward Russ had talked his coaches into "staying aggressive" and throwing the ball.

    I bring this up because Pete Carroll has won more football games than you, me, Russ and Schotty combined. When he says he wants to run, I believe him. And I believe it makes us a better team (you can't play 2-deep safeties if you're getting the ball run down your throat, and TOP helps any defense). Tom Brady has won 6 super bowls playing dink a dunk underneath until the defense gets tired and then gets a YAC TD, and they call him the GOAT. That's not arm talent, that's smart. We can be like that too.

    So yeah, if Russ and Schotty want to go deep every play, then Schotty can do it elsewhere and Russ can hand it off 30 times a game. It's Pete's fault, and it's Pete's fault we'll return to the super bowl too.
    Own The West
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  • jammerhawk wrote:
    Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense.


    Who has the authority to tell Pete "No"?
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  • DarkVictory23 wrote:I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

    I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

    Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

    Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

    As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.


    What an astute post. I see you are new here (at least in post count). I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.
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  • I very much agree with the above and think save for my comments above that this thread recognizes the 'blame' can be well shared around amongst many. The team does have a management council and you can be sure that before Pete was given the renewal until 2025 his record, the trends, and health of the team were considered before he was renewed. If the wheels fall off the Allen Family Trust can tie a can on Pete's tail w/o much difficulty. It's not as if the they would be in any way challenged by financial considerations.

    Of course the buck stops with Pete but it's more than that. The video on Wilson above certainly shows something missing in usually good reads of D's and a disturbing situational inaccuracy during the 2nd half of the season. The reality of an inability to have a dominant running attack and zero 100 yard/game rushers all season is concerning when supposedly running was to be a focus. Early the D was weak, tackled poorly and got little pressure on the opposing QB and games were shoot outs with the last team with the ball type winners. Wilson is good at that type of football and excelled despite an atrocious D. Pete is in charge of the whole team as HC but he doesn't call the D's played or the offensive plays called and it is nonsense to think he could be that intensively involved in any specific part of the game. However, he does have the ability to disagree and I suppose this is where the Pete is superman Coach theories derive from. He's panned for being loyal and wanting yes men when he parts philosophically with a coach. He is to have all the blame and never can do anything right. An assessment of the team's record since he's been here certainly shows his direction has been beneficial to the performance of my team which struggled to ever be much more than 9-7 in a good year, and often sucked terribly. I have numerous concerns about the team going forward and hated the loss to the Rams but the team lost to the #1 D in football and looked unable to adjust offensively to a D they had beaten before. Once again they tackled poorly and their inability to stuff the Rams running game or rub Goff cost them the game. It was the O that smelled the worst as it looked toothless and we know it had weapons and lots of talented guys but couldn't much.

    I agree completely with the premise of the thread that there is lots of blame to be shared around and it is simplistic to blame any single one of Pete, Schotty, Norton, RW, or (you pick). The team lost and perhaps the change that was needed was made. We'll see. Playing the blame game however is navel gazing w/o much constructive benefit. Good for discussion but not truly helpful in terms of a resolution of the issues.
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  • Sometimes you are what you are.

    Pete makes this team look better than it is.

    With the roster Pete creates, builds, and develops? The weaknesses and predilections that Pete has can be overcome or addressed. This team could do amazing things if Pete did not push his guaranteed to fail philosophy on this team in the playoffs.

    But

    Pete does not change or adjust. So it is easy to get frustrated with him. This is solvable but it won't be. So of course we vent.

    Pete is just like Marty Schottenheimer in terms of getting whatever team he helms to the playoffs. He might not win much there but he WILL get you there.

    However, Pete also makes the team better. Replacing Pete makes you worse. Not sure how we have not clearly seen how Pete can just regularly turn low draft picks into studs. Sure all coaches do this, but Pete does this REGULARLY.

    Pete's coaching holds the team back. But it is a team that is only that great because of him. That greatness leaves when he does.

    So we have to be realistic. This is as good as this team will be. Pete comes with a high floor, but also a low ceiling. It could be worse.

    We will have some good regular season games, we will get to the playoffs regularly, and at the 3/4 mark we always look like SB darkhorses. That is it. That is the upside and downside.

    Wanting Pete gone is crazy unless you think someone else can make Wilson great enough to carry a team through the playoffs. Not sure he has shown he can do that.

    We are a 6-8 win team that gets 10 wins under Pete. But in the playoffs, we play just like a 6-8 win team. Not much of a surprise anymore.
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  • Fade wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:
    Fade wrote:It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

    No one can tell him "No."


    No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense.


    Who has the authority to tell Pete "No"?


    The only person who has the authority to tell Pete no, is the owner. Oh wait, we have no owner. Just an estate administer who happens to be Paul Allen's sister. And by now everyone should realize she has no clue what is going on.

    So the statement by Fade that "No one can tell him "No" is indeed accurate.
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  • This was a super long original post... I'm gonna try to read it completely after I eat dinner...

    But what I saw from skimming over it... I agree Brees is an infinitely better pocket passer than Wilson...

    If Wilson could throw like Brees over the middle maybe we would be playing tomorrow... I think that's fair...

    Receivers were wide open in our Wild Card game vs the Rams... Wilson declined in this game, one of worst performances of his career.

    I'm not even sure how I feel about Schotty getting fired... I thought he was way better than Bevell... at a certain point we need to hold Wilson accountable to hit wide open reads?
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  • Own The West wrote:For all you saying it's Pete's fault, you're right. It's Pete's fault we're a perennial playoff team.

    Now, if you want to focus on the offense, teams started playing 2-high safeties against us mid-season to take away our deep game. We didn't adapt, and Russ' numbers and our scoring took a nose dive.

    Now I know Russ loves to throw the ball. I remember a certain super bowl when we were up 10 points in the 3rd quarter, Lynch was gashing a tired Wilfork and Co, but for some reason were started throwing the ball like we were down 10 and stopping the clock. Come to find out afterward Russ had talked his coaches into "staying aggressive" and throwing the ball.

    I bring this up because Pete Carroll has won more football games than you, me, Russ and Schotty combined. When he says he wants to run, I believe him. And I believe it makes us a better team (you can't play 2-deep safeties if you're getting the ball run down your throat, and TOP helps any defense). Tom Brady has won 6 super bowls playing dink a dunk underneath until the defense gets tired and then gets a YAC TD, and they call him the GOAT. That's not arm talent, that's smart. We can be like that too.

    So yeah, if Russ and Schotty want to go deep every play, then Schotty can do it elsewhere and Russ can hand it off 30 times a game. It's Pete's fault, and it's Pete's fault we'll return to the super bowl too.

    Good post.. :2thumbs:
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  • It's both Pete and Russ. Culture and mindset ultimately start from the top, as they do in every organization, and over the years we have developed a culture of arrogance, unwillingness to adjust, and lack of preparation. The insistence on the big plays also comes from the top, and is implemented, poorly, by the offense.

    Russ's struggles and his lack of development over the years are a byproduct the culture. There isn't much accountability and there's no real push to broaden his skillset as a QB, especially when a glorified intern like Austin Davis is the QB coach. What's the Seahawks' culture? We're a fun team to play for. That said, there's nothing about the team culture that suggests that we're a technical, detail-oriented team, like the Saints, Packers, or Brady's Pats. And as such, Russ continues to miss receivers and then gives non-answers in his press conferences and goes back to his 20 other hobbies.
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  • We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.
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  • DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.



    Not to mention he has done it before.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.


    Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

    Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.
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  • DomeHawk wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.


    Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

    Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.


    Our O-line ranked 16th in pass pro this year, so not great, but also not terrible.

    I think it's short sighted to think that's Russell's problem when it comes to his deficiencies.......which are getting the ball out on time, and more importantly throwing it to the correct receiver after reading the defense.

    Russell's accurate, throws a great ball, but that is a problem of his. So maybe a better pass pro line would help, but IMO it wouldn't result in helping him look more like a polished Brees, Brady or Rodgers type of QB that are masters at reading defenses and getting the ball out on time with quick precision and accuracy.

    Russell needs a coordinator and offensive scheme that maximizes his vision, which is getting him out in space where he can confidently go through his progressions.

    No contest for me for which coordinator could do that, it's Doug Peterson. He's a mastermind at the short misdirection RPO passing game that would maximize Russell's attributes. Rhythm, tempo, space.

    But Pete would never hire an experienced veteran coordinator like Peterson that'd want autonomy.
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  • We don't even run very many short receiver routes the vast majority of the time Dome, you are just inventing the narrative you want to see.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.


    Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

    Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.


    Our O-line ranked 16th in pass pro this year, so not great, but also not terrible.

    I think it's short sighted to think that's Russell's problem when it comes to his deficiencies.......which are getting the ball out on time, and more importantly throwing it to the correct receiver after reading the defense.

    Russell's accurate, throws a great ball, but that is a problem of his. So maybe a better pass pro line would help, but IMO it wouldn't result in helping him look more like a polished Brees, Brady or Rodgers type of QB that are masters at reading defenses and getting the ball out on time with quick precision and accuracy.

    Russell needs a coordinator and offensive scheme that maximizes his vision, which is getting him out in space where he can confidently go through his progressions.

    No contest for me for which coordinator could do that, it's Doug Peterson. He's a mastermind at the short misdirection RPO passing game that would maximize Russell's attributes. Rhythm, tempo, space.

    But Pete would never hire an experienced veteran coordinator like Peterson that'd want autonomy.

    I also think Pete wants to ensure there isn’t a mutiny in the locker room as to who the top dog coach really is.

    I think Pete is searching for someone that could not possibly threaten him in any way.

    He’ll be hiring someone that will definitely “lay down” to Carroll.

    Imagine, the locker room in full support of an OC over Carroll. That wouldn’t suit well with Carroll.

    Carroll will surely make it known all the success is because of Carroll and all the failures are someone else,
    but may not publicly state it.

    I personally do not think Carroll will hire Pederson because Pederson is an established coach with a Super Bowl resume.

    Any personal decision to back Pederson may result in a mutiny in the locker room, and it can prove fatal to Carroll.

    Carroll is going to of course prevent any possibility of that.

    Pederson will not be the hire in my opinion.
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  • I played football from the time I was 8 to age 22. In spite of that I don't consider myself an expert like many here. I have never coached and rarely participate in the x's and o's you see here so often. The one thing I do bring to the table is the knowledge that you can't scheme yourself to success if you have inferior athletes. That's just not the way football works.
    DomeHawk
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

    It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

    There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.


    Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

    Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.


    Our O-line ranked 16th in pass pro this year, so not great, but also not terrible.


    29th in QB sacked percentage. You're not going to win championships with that. Look at the teams with the lowest sack %, they are the teams at the top.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct
    DomeHawk
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  • Domehawk,

    You can absolutely scheme your way to success against better athletes in football. Teams do it all the time.

    The 85 Bears did not actually have the best roster that year. They had a good one but what put them over all the other teams was the 46 defense. That is still the best defense in history even though the 46 probably does not work today.

    But the best example of scheming to success is A-11 football. A-11 offense was specifically designed to make it easier for teams in HS to compete with teams with better athletes. I think they made rule changes to cut the effectiveness of it but it certainly worked.

    It made smaller schools immediately competitive and even able to win games against some of the bigger power schools.

    Our biggest problem is that Pete seems not only unaware that tactics can impact success, he seems oblivious to the reality that the other team knowing your strategy and tactics can hurt your own effectiveness. Or that strengths/weaknesses in matchups should determine the tactics you employ, as they effect the success rate.

    None of this seems to register with him. Again, probably more because he is old than because he has never been exposed to these concepts.

    As Pete continues to age, this gets worse and will get worse. However, Pete stepping down means the winning years of Seahawk football end. So it isn't like people are clamoring to push him off the stage. Nor should they be.
    TwistedHusky
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  • DomeHawk wrote:
    29th in QB sacked percentage. You're not going to win championships with that. Look at the teams with the lowest sack %, they are the teams at the top.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct


    Yeah I'm over blaming our O-line for Russell getting sacked a bazillion times a year, over half of his sacks are on him.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    29th in QB sacked percentage. You're not going to win championships with that. Look at the teams with the lowest sack %, they are the teams at the top.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct


    Yeah I'm over blaming our O-line for Russell getting sacked a bazillion times a year, over half of his sacks are on him.


    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.
    John63
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  • John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    29th in QB sacked percentage. You're not going to win championships with that. Look at the teams with the lowest sack %, they are the teams at the top.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct


    Yeah I'm over blaming our O-line for Russell getting sacked a bazillion times a year, over half of his sacks are on him.


    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.


    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    29th in QB sacked percentage. You're not going to win championships with that. Look at the teams with the lowest sack %, they are the teams at the top.

    https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-pct


    Yeah I'm over blaming our O-line for Russell getting sacked a bazillion times a year, over half of his sacks are on him.


    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.


    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.


    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.
    John63
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    Posts: 4055
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  • Analysis: Was Russell Wilson really to blame for the sacks against the Chargers?

    "Carroll said Wilson could have done more to avoid the four sacks that he took, three of which loomed pivotal in killing Seattle drives."

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... -chargers/


    Last week’s win saw a statistical rarity: Russell Wilson not getting sacked

    “Sacks are a QB stat” is layman’s term for explaining that quarterbacks are, indeed, the most important variable"
    "The longer, nuanced statement: "Variation in sack rates across teams is primarily driven by quarterbacks and not offensive lines."
    "The short, digestible statement: "Sacks are a quarterback stat."

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/12/18/2 ... completion



    Seahawks Film Room: How Russell Wilson was sometimes his own worst enemy in 2018


    " I wanted to look at the 51 sacks to determine the root cause for each and discuss trends I saw on film. After doing so, I believe that even though Seattle's sack rate of 10.7 percent is far from good, the line definitely improved in pass protection this season under Mike Solari."

    https://theathletic.com/767912/2019/01/ ... y-in-2018/
    Wenhawk
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