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Its not Russ, its not Pete, It wasnt Schotty or Bevell...

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  • John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Yeah I'm over blaming our O-line for Russell getting sacked a bazillion times a year, over half of his sacks are on him.


    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.


    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.


    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.


    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.


    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.



    The question is though, is this a Wilson thing, or a by product of PCs desire for chunk plays which means longer routes.
    John63
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  • John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.


    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.



    The question is though, is this a Wilson thing, or a by product of PCs desire for chunk plays which means longer routes.


    It's a Wilson thing for me. I highly doubt Pete's instructing Wilson to hold onto the ball too long and take too many unnecessary sacks and intentional grounding penalties killing drives.

    But Russell's always played like this, it's one of his biggest attributes, and one of his biggest detriments.

    Not sure what we're arguing about. If you can't see this, then idk what to say. Dude holds onto the ball too long, is at the top of the list every year in sacks, as my link illustrates it's not all on the O-line. Slow throw times and holds onto the ball too long, which results in sacks.

    But again again and again, you want to improve the O-line I'm all in. Just don't expect these numbers to dramatically drop if you do. It's ingrained in Russell's QB DNA.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.



    The question is though, is this a Wilson thing, or a by product of PCs desire for chunk plays which means longer routes.


    It's a Wilson thing for me. I highly doubt Pete's instructing Wilson to hold onto the ball too long and take too many unnecessary sacks and intentional grounding penalties killing drives.

    But Russell's always played like this, it's one of his biggest attributes, and one of his biggest detriments.

    Not sure what we're arguing about. If you can't see this, then idk what to say. Dude holds onto the ball too long, is at the top of the list every year in sacks, as my link illustrates it's not all on the O-line. Slow throw times and holds onto the ball too long, which results in sacks.

    But again again and again, you want to improve the O-line I'm all in. Just don't expect these numbers to dramatically drop if you do. It's ingrained in Russell's QB DNA.



    I guess I don't agree with you saying its all Wilson when we know for a fact PC has said he wants chunk plays, which means longer routes, which means having to hold the ball longer. I am not saying some of the sacks are not on him, all qbs cause some of their sacks. I just don't believe out of the 40+ sacks this year more than 10-20% of them are on him. And either way does not excuse being hit, hurried, pressured and sacked don over 50% of your drop backs. Also Wilson is always top 5 in being pressured in under 2 seconds. Then if you want to talk about the 10-20% of sacks he causes you must also talked about the additional 10-20 he stops from happening.
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  • John63 wrote:

    I guess I don't agree with you saying its all Wilson when we know for a fact PC has said he wants chunk plays, which means longer routes, which means having to hold the ball longer. I am not saying some of the sacks are not on him, all qbs cause some of their sacks. I just don't believe out of the 40+ sacks this year more than 10-20% of them are on him. And either way does not excuse being hit, hurried, pressured and sacked don over 50% of your drop backs. Also Wilson is always top 5 in being pressured in under 2 seconds. Then if you want to talk about the 10-20% of sacks he causes you must also talked about the additional 10-20 he stops from happening.


    It's not all Wilson. It's football, a team sport, every positive and every negative is some degree and percentage of praise or blame/criticism on all parts involved.

    Guess that's where we part ways, you think it's more on Pete and the O-line that Russell gets sacked so much, and I think it's more on Wilson.

    Mobile QB's get sacked more, pocket QB's who get the ball out quickly get sacked less.

    So get All Pro's at every O-line position and Russell will still be in the top 10 in the league in sacks.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:

    I guess I don't agree with you saying its all Wilson when we know for a fact PC has said he wants chunk plays, which means longer routes, which means having to hold the ball longer. I am not saying some of the sacks are not on him, all qbs cause some of their sacks. I just don't believe out of the 40+ sacks this year more than 10-20% of them are on him. And either way does not excuse being hit, hurried, pressured and sacked don over 50% of your drop backs. Also Wilson is always top 5 in being pressured in under 2 seconds. Then if you want to talk about the 10-20% of sacks he causes you must also talked about the additional 10-20 he stops from happening.


    It's not all Wilson. It's football, a team sport, every positive and every negative is some degree and percentage of praise or blame/criticism on all parts involved.

    Guess that's where we part ways, you think it's more on Pete and the O-line that Russell gets sacked so much, and I think it's more on Wilson.

    Mobile QB's get sacked more, pocket QB's who get the ball out quickly get sacked less.

    So get All Pro's at every O-line position and Russell will still be in the top 10 in the league in sacks.


    not if you change the system from chunk plays to take what's given, get the ball out quicker. I believe the biggest issue is the system, PC wants of chunk plays.
    John63
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Domehawk,

    You can absolutely scheme your way to success against better athletes in football. Teams do it all the time.


    I'm not saying that it doesn't happen but as a general rule. I witnessed it time and again playing the game.

    Why do you think that Alabama is winning NC's just about every year? Because their coaching is so superior? They have good coaches but so do many other teams. Their offenses roll over other teams with Sarkisian as their OC for Christ's sake.They get the best athletes, they're bigger, stronger, and faster.
    DomeHawk
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  • DomeHawk wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:Domehawk,

    You can absolutely scheme your way to success against better athletes in football. Teams do it all the time.


    I'm not saying that it doesn't happen but as a general rule. I witnessed it time and again playing the game.

    Why do you think that Alabama is winning NC's just about every year? Because their coaching is so superior? They have good coaches but so do many other teams. Their offenses roll over other teams with Sarkisian as their OC for Christ's sake.They get the best athletes, they're bigger, stronger, and faster.


    Well getting the pick of the litter every year does have it's advantages also, when you get 12 draft picks sign up for your roster every year versus other schools say maybe 12 just in that conference you have something.

    You can almost play sandlot football and still win.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.



    The question is though, is this a Wilson thing, or a by product of PCs desire for chunk plays which means longer routes.


    It's a Wilson thing for me. I highly doubt Pete's instructing Wilson to hold onto the ball too long and take too many unnecessary sacks and intentional grounding penalties killing drives.

    But Russell's always played like this, it's one of his biggest attributes, and one of his biggest detriments.

    Not sure what we're arguing about. If you can't see this, then idk what to say. Dude holds onto the ball too long, is at the top of the list every year in sacks, as my link illustrates it's not all on the O-line. Slow throw times and holds onto the ball too long, which results in sacks.

    But again again and again, you want to improve the O-line I'm all in. Just don't expect these numbers to dramatically drop if you do. It's ingrained in Russell's QB DNA.

    Correct. Sacks are never going to be a reliable metric to evaluate the Oline with Russ behind it. His sack numbers are always going to be high.
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  • John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:

    I guess I don't agree with you saying its all Wilson when we know for a fact PC has said he wants chunk plays, which means longer routes, which means having to hold the ball longer. I am not saying some of the sacks are not on him, all qbs cause some of their sacks. I just don't believe out of the 40+ sacks this year more than 10-20% of them are on him. And either way does not excuse being hit, hurried, pressured and sacked don over 50% of your drop backs. Also Wilson is always top 5 in being pressured in under 2 seconds. Then if you want to talk about the 10-20% of sacks he causes you must also talked about the additional 10-20 he stops from happening.


    It's not all Wilson. It's football, a team sport, every positive and every negative is some degree and percentage of praise or blame/criticism on all parts involved.

    Guess that's where we part ways, you think it's more on Pete and the O-line that Russell gets sacked so much, and I think it's more on Wilson.

    Mobile QB's get sacked more, pocket QB's who get the ball out quickly get sacked less.

    So get All Pro's at every O-line position and Russell will still be in the top 10 in the league in sacks.


    not if you change the system from chunk plays to take what's given, get the ball out quicker. I believe the biggest issue is the system, PC wants of chunk plays.


    Pete wants ball control, a punishing run game and thinks that opens up opportunities for explosive play action down field.

    So "chunk plays?" I think that's a basic way of looking at it. Playcalling is layered, you do certain things, give certain looks, run certain styles of offense early in order to open other things up in those games and drives.

    That's what Pete believes in..........but does that suit Russell's game? Somewhat for me, but not entirely...........because I think what suits Russell is pace, tempo and getting him in rhythm. I think he said the word "pace" at least a dozen times this year in his pressers, especially in his last presser after the Rams game.

    THAT'S what I wish Pete would pay attention to, and implement more into the offense and consider that for his next coordinator hire.

    Doubtful. But that's my dream.
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  • It's Pete.

    He's not accountable to anyone. Jody, bless her, kept the team in Seattle, tho there are probably more than a handful of people in town that could just write her a check for 3 billion or whatever the team is worth.

    Her resume:

    Having an insanely rich brother since the late 80s
    Aerobics instructor

    She is not the Titan of Industry that many other team owners are. How is she going to tell Pete how to run HIS team?

    There is a lot of talk about Pete's ability to recruit and train players, etc. All that off field stuff is great, be he has shown again and again that he can choke during games when the heat is turned up. Is it getting worse as time goes on?

    The OC will always been hamstrung by Pete. As someone wisely said in another thread, Pete manages his coords badly because 'They get all the responsibility, but no autonomy or decision making.' I've been in that situation before. The boss makes the plan, but if it doesn't pan out in Real Life (looked great on paper!) then it is all your fault, even tho you aren't allowed to make any changes to fix it during execution. Which leads to:

    'We need to adjust better and earlier.' Pete says this all the time. But they can't, because he has to sign off on everything during the game, and he is NOT by any means quick on the draw. That stupid 4th and 1 that turned into 4th and 6 during the playoff game because Pete was futzing around on the sidelines. I thought they were trying to draw off-sides. Nope, Russ is standing out there waiting for Pete to....? Override Schotty? Whoops!

    I actually enjoy watching other teams more now, because they have some creativity. Flea flicker plays, other sorts of catch them off guard stuff. I would love to think that Pete could do that (or let his OC do that), but when he does is fails miserably.OC's probably don't even bother to show him creative plays because what's the point? It wasn't his idea.

    Russ? Wow he was killing it the first part of the season, but blew his load early because he was carrying the D. But also as the D improved Pete had to stick his finger in the O pie and futz it up.

    I will leave with a Pete quote which sums up my feelings of watching the same game over and over. And I am a patient man:

    'It takes patience. Sure, nobody wants to see it.'
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  • I like that there are some more nuanced opinions about how we ended up out of the playoffs earlier than expected.

    My nuanced opinion is: The Rams played better than we did. They hit harder, ran faster, were more aggressive, looked more disciplined. On that day. They also had days where they looked passive. But on that day they looked like the alpha dogs.

    I'm not sure why. Maybe playing for a QB that had broken his thumb brought out the alpha in them? Maybe the Hawks thought this game was "in the bag" and they were looking ahead. Who knows. But it happens.

    i watched Aaron Rodgers lose his 4th NFCCG, this time at home, and he had a wide open Davantae Adams on a free play and failed to even look his way. This is the consensus league MVP this year. It happens even to the best of them.

    I play tennis with a group of guys and some days I have no problem beating them and sometimes they beat me. When everyone is near the same level, anyone can beat anyone on the right day.

    We like to think we can will our way to great things. But truth is, fortune and circumstances play a large role in how things in life turn out.

    All you can do every season is hope your team is at least trying it's best to win and see where the season takes you. I believe Russ and Pete and John are trying their best.
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  • I will just reiterate once again, it's Pete.

    Image

    The mental gymnastics and "theories" going on in here is not necessary.

    DK tweet
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  • It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here.

    /end thread
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  • hoxrox wrote:It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here.

    /end thread


    There's no place here for logic, reason and a sensible well thought out approach to these complex issues.

    You must choose one person to blame, and then cling to your half baked opinions like grim death for all of forum eternity.
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  • Win as a team, lose as a team. Plenty of "blame" to go around. From top to bottom, they have the talent to get this done. They underperformed in the playoffs. As a team, QB, offense, defense and Coaching. All of it.
    They will be back and strong in 2021.
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  • hoxrox wrote:It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here.

    /end thread


    Mic. Drop.

    And I agree completely. Very well said
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  • Well thought out, well written post. TY. I got most of it, and will come back later for the rest.
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  • You can banter about all of the theories about what deficiencies Carroll/Schotty/Wilson bring to the game, but Bevell physically pulled the kill button that ended a SB for us. You can definitely blame someone for us "not getting it done."

    Now, I tend to defend the players on the field, and will always defend Wilson. I can never figure out what the hell Pete is doing, and my primary criticism of him is his lack of care for the OL. Beyond that, he's a headscratcher for me.
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  • keasley45 wrote:Maybe its just the ultimate embodiment of the unique character of this team.

    Not to create yet another 'who's fault is it ' thread, but i wanted to post a possible scenario around how and why we are where we are with the team today that doesnt necessarily 'incriminate' anyone, but rather looks at the situation as just a case of trying to work through the gifts and challenges of a very unique circumstance and rare player at QB.

    I think we can all use a bit less of the polarizing talk when it comes to Pete vs Schotty (or whoever the OC will now be ) vs Russ and the blame game for who is responsible when we dont succeed. I've certainly been guilty of going down the rabbit hole when it comes to trying to untangle the mess of our season and the last several years. But I think at the end of the day, the reality is that there isnt a 'BAD GUY' in this plot. just a bunch of guys commited to trying to figure out the best way to win.And they are much closer to what's actually going on than we are. The best we can do is look at game film.

    Everyone is due their fair share of praise for the success we have seen and responsibility for the challenges.

    The two constants in this game are Russ and Pete. The OC, interchangeable - although it would be great if we could get some consistency at the position, the fact that we havent found that is beginning to look like evidence to me for what might really be going on. The team has been trying to figure itself out for a while now and i think what we just finally saw this season was hopefully the last phase of a long, 4 year exploration.

    I honestly believe that since the collapse of the LOB and the departure of Lynch, there has been a concerted effort to try to transition the team to RW, both from a leadership perspective, which i think he has done, but also from a scheme perspective, which to date we have struggled with. But ultimately what does that transition to a passing offense look like for such a unique QB.

    He's similar in height to D Brees but doesnt have Brees's savant like ability to diagnose a defense and hit 10 different WR a game consistently. Brees overcomes the challenge of maybe not being able to SEE everything by being so enmeshed in the plays that he can run the O with his eyes closed and hit his receivers anywhere on the field so long as they are where they are designed to be. He has a rare and uncanny abiliity in this sense and i'd wager that if there was a NEXT GEN stat that could measure his brain's ability to read and react, / process data, he'd be off the charts.

    Russ has come to defeat his issues with his physical stature by moving outside the pocket, releasing the ball and diagnosing plays from a deeper drop, and when all else fails, punishing a defense with is escapability and timely runs. Like Brees, he's incredibly accurate on the long ball and overall in general, when he has the opportunity to see where he's going with the ball. Russ, an uncanny pocket sense. Drew, an uncanny field sense. Again - my observation, not set in stone fact.

    But given the above, an offense built around a passing game will by default need to look a bit different for Drew than for Russ. To say that Russ can do what Drew can from a shear technical ability , is in my opinon just as foolish as someone expecting Brees to be able to do what Russ can (nobody in the league can do what he can). And thats not throwing shade on Russ, he's fully capable of executing an offense. Its more praise for Drew because the dude is just that good.

    The question is, what does that magical passing game look like for our QB?

    Well...

    It was apparent that the OC we had when we were built around a legendary defense and sledghammer in ballet shoes in Beastmode, no longer fit the profile for a team that was moving to a more aggressive passing game. He was let go.

    What did that more aggressive passing game mean? Nobody knew until this year because nobody had seen RW with reliable running backs and a philosophy that was built around his arm moreso than his legs. We'd come to know him as a QB that could make something out of nothing when the plays didnt go according to plan. He built his legend on improv - turning nothing into a mile long highlight reel of spectacular plays.

    But i think MAYBE at some point the improv act which had been just a tool for Russ, whether because of a poor play design, not being able to see receivers, not being able to process reads quickly, or being conditioned through years of HAVING to be ready to break from the scheme due to poor protection and do his own thing, became his default style of play.

    So now, enter Schottenheimer, a guy, for all the criticism leveled at him, showed that he could pull together some pretty effectve schemes. I dont know how much responsibility to assign the OC or the QB for the inability to effectively implement a passing game that was diverse in terms of its range of routes and combinations, but the results... well, we saw them. however, i dont think its s a stretch to assume that RW is a contributing factor. He cant NOT be for the adjustments that have to be made for his height alone (deeper drops, slightly longer developing routes). And that's not bashing him at all, it just is what it is.

    The question beyond that is how much of his natural tendency to want to move out of the pocket to see routes is absolutely necessary (ie , how much CAN he see at a 3 or 5 step drop from under center or a catch and release from shotgun) vs it just now being how he plays. If its how he's been conditioned to play, then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be. If its vision (he CANT see the field in certain instances) and his ability to analyze a read, post snap iand trust it is severely impaired because his defuault reaction for 9 years has been to get the ball and move, then that's a bit more difficult to overcome. And it could also certainly by both - and likely is.

    Either way, now at year 10, then the offensive strategy needs to shift. If he can get his discipline back, he should eventually be able to make the reads and get the ball out quickly. And again, i dont know whether what we saw this year from him (patting the ball, the double clutches, the indecisiveness) was a failure in being able to drop back and 1,2,3 read, react and get the ball out to the open guy in the flow of the offense, or if t was that he was trying to do it but couldnt see, and thus was constantly forced to break pocket and look deeper, which right off the bat negates the playcall and puts the chances of the down succeeding on RW and a given wr's ability to read eachother and connect. however, from what i've seen on tape over 16 weeks, i can say comfortably that although you can criticize Schotty fro maybe not adapting in game with a reasonable quickness or not calling up enough plays to RB's, there were A LOT of plays left on the field. And it could just be that the disconnect between PC and Schotty that led to his firing was a desire on Schotty's part to keep trying down the road of getting RW to function more effectively as a complete passer in the flow of the offense and plays called, getting him to use the whole field. Whereas Pete sees the best path to move the offense and RW forward being to stop trying to push him to do what he now obviously struggles to do and supplement the short pass game quick reads and a more methodical progression down the field, with a more schematically diverse and intentional run game.

    And that run game CAN get us where we want to go. If its effective, it sets up all of those incredible passes Russ is known for. On its own, it can be lethal either by virtue of its diversity or its factor of intimidation. Which, depends on who is running the rock. The one thing i will say thats a bit concerning is that even if Carson comes back, between he and Penny, we have a back that is lightning quick through the hole and a bulldozer, but struggles to break long runs and a RB who dances too much in finding the holes, but can take it to the house on any given play if he breaks the first line of defense. Because they are so different, WHEN we deploy them in a game can be a tell as to what we want to do. If chris is in we are a bit more diverse, although he doesnt have great long or edge speed. When Penny is in, its likely going outside. What we need to really help Russ is either a scheme that can leverage both styles effectively, or a different back altogether. Someone like Jones in GB or conceptually the tandems that Cleveland or KC run. In the case of KC and Cleveland, either back can go inside or outside, but they each have their obvious strengths.

    If you cant draw up short to middle pass plays, you have to develop a combination of longer developing passes and screens with a FAST running attack that is effective on the edges early in games and a PUNISHING one up the middle late. Gaining 5 yards consistently on swing plays, and runs off tackle forces defenses to play the width of the field. I think its why we saw the hawks constantly trying to establish the edge running game even though they knew they could reliably get 3.5 ypc between the tackles. without a consistent threat to spread the d-line and backers out, the field gets small for both runs and passes. And even harder for a shorter QB to fit the ball into tight openings.

    The running game, and a well designed one that stretches the defense and punishes it seems to me to not be simply the preference of a head coach, but if any of the above is remotely true, pretty much necessary in getting RW back on the track to success.

    this post is wayyyy too long but thats only because the challenges the team now faces (and i guess has faced all along) are complex and not as cut and dry as letting Russ cook, or keeping Pete out of a playbook, Russ being broken, or the OC being a dud. There's a ton that Pete and the coordinators are looking at on O to unlock the potential of this team. Some of it is in just unlocking (not unleashing) Russ, some of it is scheme, some of it, personnel and all of it doable.

    We've been quick to condemn coaches and players for the failures to date but in all honesty, like everything else about the franchise, the difficulty in finding the ultimate success over the last few years is like everything else around this team, due to the fact that the circumstances are just sooo unique. Starting with the QB. And thats a blessing and a curse. But it is what it is. Cant believe i'm about to say this but it genuinely in this case really is all about the process and evolving.

    I'm confident we will get there.



    Nice post Keasley45


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  • hoxrox wrote:It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    Pete has roster control, and final say. Hard for John to do his job, when Pete can mettle at any time.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Pete's offense. Pete likes to keep it simple, and play "overly careful." He is content with punting.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    Russ is doing what Pete directs. Chuck it deep, take care of the ball. In that setup, those issues will arise.

    hoxrox wrote:They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here. /end thread

    They ALL answer to Pete. If they don't like it and fall in line, they will no longer be with the team. We'll just call it philosophical differences.
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  • Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    Pete has roster control, and final say. Hard for John to do his job, when Pete can mettle at any time.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Pete's offense. Pete likes to keep it simple, and play "overly careful." He is content with punting.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    Russ is doing what Pete directs. Chuck it deep, take care of the ball. In that setup, those issues will arise.

    hoxrox wrote:They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here. /end thread

    They ALL answer to Pete. If they don't like it and fall in line, they will no longer be with the team. We'll just call it philosophical differences.


    I think we just disagree on Pete's management style. Although he assumes absolute authority, it doesn't necessarily mean he exercises absolute control.

    Some may cite the overrule on 4th and 1 as an example of meddling, but the overrule was a Carson run up the gut. What if Shotty called a long-developing pass play? I'm sure Reid has overruled Bieniemy before as well. It's kind of what head coaches do.

    Also I'll assume it was John who selected Penny over Chubb, or Pete agreed based on John's recommendation. I don't think Pete had a gun pointed to John's head on draft day, telling him to select Penny, or else.

    Rather, I think Pete leadership style is more to "let players be" and allow them to grow and thrive within the program. Let Marshawn be Marshawn. Let Earl be Earl. That is, until you put yourself above the team.

    I believe this management style extends to his coaching staff as well. In fact, sometimes I think he allows too much rope. He allows too many chances...

    I just don't believe he rules with an iron fist. But when you fail to deliver results over the course of a season or two, then yes of course, the axe is warranted.
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  • hoxrox wrote:
    Fade wrote:
    hoxrox wrote:It's Pete for poor game day management and hiring sub par coordinators in the first place.

    It's John for not prioritizing oline, or drafting a player like Chubb who would make defenses respect the run game, and not play two deep all the time.

    Pete has roster control, and final say. Hard for John to do his job, when Pete can mettle at any time.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Shotty for not putting together creative and dynamic game plans that would utilize multiple targets on a regular basis. For not adjusting to the strengths and weakness of a defenses.

    It's Pete's offense. Pete likes to keep it simple, and play "overly careful." He is content with punting.

    hoxrox wrote:It's Russ for being indecisive, being confused by coverages, and holding onto the ball too long and not taking the underneath and intermediate shots when available. For taking sacks and putting the offense in 3rd and forever situations. Sorry Russ apologists, film don't lie.

    Russ is doing what Pete directs. Chuck it deep, take care of the ball. In that setup, those issues will arise.

    hoxrox wrote:They all ALL culpable. To put it all on one person is severely shortsighted, and grossly ignorant to the reality at hand here. /end thread

    They ALL answer to Pete. If they don't like it and fall in line, they will no longer be with the team. We'll just call it philosophical differences.


    I think we just disagree on Pete's management style. Although he assumes absolute authority, it doesn't necessarily mean he exercises absolute control.

    Some may cite the overrule on 4th and 1 as an example of meddling, but the overrule was a Carson run up the gut. What if Shotty called a long-developing pass play? I'm sure Reid has overruled Bieniemy before as well. It's kind of what head coaches do.

    Also I'll assume it was John who selected Penny over Chubb, or Pete agreed based on John's recommendation. I don't think Pete had a gun pointed to John's head on draft day, telling him to select Penny, or else.

    Rather, I think Pete leadership style is more to "let players be" and allow them to grow and thrive within the program. Let Marshawn be Marshawn. Let Earl be Earl. That is, until you put yourself above the team.

    I believe this management style extends to his coaching staff as well. In fact, sometimes I think he allows too much rope. He allows too many chances...

    I just don't believe he rules with an iron fist. But when you fail to deliver results over the course of a season or two, then yes of course, the axe is warranted.



    Watch the video. He was fine with Schotty and planned to keep him, and then Pete learned Schotty was unwilling to be a "yes" man going forward.
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  • Fade had a story about Pete freaking out about game day meals.

    If true, that should tell you everything you need about how much control he demands. That is not a problem you solve. It is just an issue you learn to live with as long as Carroll is there.

    Carroll has an almost magical ability to pull great players out of what seem to be flawed pools.

    He is also an incredible motivator.

    Those are the things that he relies on to win.

    He is a below-average tactician. He is an average strategist.

    That is actually somewhat harsh but essentially he can coach certain systems with certain players better than anyone else. But he cannot adjust or adapt if he does not have the players to run those systems. He is dependent on a certain playstyle whether he has the players for it or not.

    And since those kinds of players are extremely difficult to find or build, we either pull out the stops to get them (Adams trade) or we stumble along when we are missing them (T Thompson, etc.)

    This is very bad news if we lose Carson because Carroll depends on incredible RBs that somehow can get good yardage with sometimes godawful run blocking (where you have to make the first cut behind the LOS).

    It has ALWAYS been Pete though. The winning and losing. Everything this team accomplishes and ever time this team falls short - those are ALL on Pete. It shouldn't even be debatable at this point.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Fade had a story about Pete freaking out about game day meals.

    If true, that should tell you everything you need about how much control he demands. That is not a problem you solve. It is just an issue you learn to live with as long as Carroll is there.

    Carroll has an almost magical ability to pull great players out of what seem to be flawed pools.

    He is also an incredible motivator.

    Those are the things that he relies on to win.

    He is a below-average tactician. He is an average strategist.

    That is actually somewhat harsh but essentially he can coach certain systems with certain players better than anyone else. But he cannot adjust or adapt if he does not have the players to run those systems. He is dependent on a certain playstyle whether he has the players for it or not.

    And since those kinds of players are extremely difficult to find or build, we either pull out the stops to get them (Adams trade) or we stumble along when we are missing them (T Thompson, etc.)

    This is very bad news if we lose Carson because Carroll depends on incredible RBs that somehow can get good yardage with sometimes godawful run blocking (where you have to make the first cut behind the LOS).

    It has ALWAYS been Pete though. The winning and losing. Everything this team accomplishes and ever time this team falls short - those are ALL on Pete. It shouldn't even be debatable at this point.


    agreed and that is why he needs Wilson, it is a win-win for him. Either Wilson pulls his a$$ out of the fire or he has a scapegoat.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Fade had a story about Pete freaking out about game day meals.

    To give people a little more background on this who are unaware. Pete was doing a press confernece I think around the time they were going to the SuperBowl against NE.

    And they got on the subject of what was different in Seattle vs. his time in NE. And Pete talked about control, not having enough of it. Then he went on to describe the level of detail of control he wanted. He proceeds to tell a story about having (I think it was training camp lunches planned.) But ownership overruled him, and didn't go with his meal plan. Pete was sideways about this even when telling the story, it really, really, bothered him.

    TwistedHusky wrote:Carroll has an almost magical ability to pull great players out of what seem to be flawed pools.

    He is also an incredible motivator.

    Those are the things that he relies on to win.

    He is a below-average tactician. He is an average strategist.

    That is actually somewhat harsh but essentially he can coach certain systems with certain players better than anyone else. But he cannot adjust or adapt if he does not have the players to run those systems. He is dependent on a certain playstyle whether he has the players for it or not.

    And since those kinds of players are extremely difficult to find or build, we either pull out the stops to get them (Adams trade) or we stumble along when we are missing them (T Thompson, etc.)

    This is very bad news if we lose Carson because Carroll depends on incredible RBs that somehow can get good yardage with sometimes godawful run blocking (where you have to make the first cut behind the LOS).

    It has ALWAYS been Pete though. The winning and losing. Everything this team accomplishes and ever time this team falls short - those are ALL on Pete. It shouldn't even be debatable at this point.


    Pete is as good as it gets when it comes to getting players to run through a brickwall. Seemingly they have to every week on offense, because the other team knows what's comin'.

    I think you're selling Pete a little short on the defensive side of the ball as a tactician, though. But ultimately you are correct, especially, right here, right now in the 2020 NFL. He is far behind as a strategist, and tends to just lean on belief and philosophy from years past, oblivious to what the upcoming opponent is doing.

    And that's why it is imperative, that the New OC is given the necessary freedom to operate his offense, Pete cannot handcuff him, or bad things are going to happen to this franchise over the next few years. I've said if for years, Pete just needs to give his OC 1 directive and gets the hell outta his way. "We run it more than we throw it." The nuances of how you exactly do that, need to be left up to the OC, not Pete.
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Fade had a story about Pete freaking out about game day meals.

    If true, that should tell you everything you need about how much control he demands. That is not a problem you solve. It is just an issue you learn to live with as long as Carroll is there.

    Carroll has an almost magical ability to pull great players out of what seem to be flawed pools.

    He is also an incredible motivator.

    Those are the things that he relies on to win.

    He is a below-average tactician. He is an average strategist.

    That is actually somewhat harsh but essentially he can coach certain systems with certain players better than anyone else. But he cannot adjust or adapt if he does not have the players to run those systems. He is dependent on a certain playstyle whether he has the players for it or not.

    And since those kinds of players are extremely difficult to find or build, we either pull out the stops to get them (Adams trade) or we stumble along when we are missing them (T Thompson, etc.)

    This is very bad news if we lose Carson because Carroll depends on incredible RBs that somehow can get good yardage with sometimes godawful run blocking (where you have to make the first cut behind the LOS).

    It has ALWAYS been Pete though. The winning and losing. Everything this team accomplishes and ever time this team falls short - those are ALL on Pete. It shouldn't even be debatable at this point.
    I just wanted to highlight this part because I think it really hurts us, but I think our line gets a little too much blame for a failure of scheme here, because we force our RBs to rush from Shotgun all the time. Even with decent run blocking, this style essentially requires at least one cut before getting past the LOS.

    I put a lot of the blame for this on Pete because it's our scheme we've had for a long time but I'm not sure we don't do it to some degree to because Russell prefers to work out of that formation. (I also think there's a decent chance we do it because once upon a time the read option was a big threat for our offense and we have not adjusted to the fact that Russell reading 'keep' happens only once in a blue moon and is no longer a reason to line up in sub-optimal formation for so many obvious running situations.)
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  • Pete is to blame and Russell is to blame.

    Russell isnt consistant enough, needs to be able to methodically move down the field and he has rarely shown that ability.
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  • It's meddling Pete. Obvious is obvious.
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  • NFSeahawks628 wrote:Pete is to blame and Russell is to blame.

    Russell isnt consistant enough, needs to be able to methodically move down the field and he has rarely shown that ability.

    You think Russell Wilson is the reason? Why is it whenever we hit the 4th quarter he was able the methodically move the ball down the field? Why was he able to overcome huge deficits in the 4th quarter while being completely neutered for 3 quarters?

    The answer is Pete. We didn't go a record streak of games without scoring in the first quarter because of Wilson, that was on Carroll. I challenge you, go watch how other teams operate their offenses, then double back and watch a few Seahawk games. We do things differently here than just about any other team in the NFL. It's consistent among all of our coordinators and across three different quarterbacks.

    Why is it that Russ is doing this now? He asked Carroll privately and brought up these concerns, nothing was done. He gave Wilson empty promises, so now he's taking it to the media. If something doesn't change this year we're going to lose our Quarterback. If that happens, Carroll needs to be fired immediately.
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  • I just want to use an example we all deal with.

    At work you have an issue, you speak to your supervisor or person that is your senior manager.

    You do this a few times giving them the benefit of the doubt, they are busy or had other issues pop up etc, you go back again and they give you the your important and part of the solution we are working on it, here's your raise.

    Nothing happens and over this time period your feeling about things get worse and become a issue you now fight thru daily feeling that they really are not paying attention and just giving you lip service.

    So now you take it to a VP when the chance presented itself.

    All of a sudden the Mangers are in your ear about using chain of command and that you should have came to them etc.

    Thats kind of where we are.

    Now in our work environment they could make things harder on you trying to get you to quit or transfer out from their area of operations.

    That may be where we are with Wilson.

    At work they love your productivity, and how you do things, they don't want to let you go until they have a replacement but you still get the stink eye.
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  • chris98251 wrote:I just want to use an example we all deal with.

    At work you have an issue, you speak to your supervisor or person that is your senior manager.

    You do this a few times giving them the benefit of the doubt, they are busy or had other issues pop up etc, you go back again and they give you the your important and part of the solution we are working on it, here's your raise.

    Nothing happens and over this time period your feeling about things get worse and become a issue you now fight thru daily feeling that they really are not paying attention and just giving you lip service.

    So now you take it to a VP when the chance presented itself.

    All of a sudden the Mangers are in your ear about using chain of command and that you should have came to them etc.

    Thats kind of where we are.

    Now in our work environment they could make things harder on you trying to get you to quit or transfer out from their area of operations.

    That may be where we are with Wilson.

    At work they love your productivity, and how you do things, they don't want to let you go until they have a replacement but you still get the stink eye.



    I see your point but there are usually two sides to a story...

    While it's true that a star employee will receive special consideration or even job tailoring to fit their unique talents, there are limits.

    If you're in management attempting to keep everyone happy, then this employee might be considered a prima donna.

    Someone attempting to dictate the direction of the business when that isn't their responsibility, is viewed as overstepping and possibly offensive - and not just by upper management. Every hiring level in the company is affected by chemistry. It can by a delicate balance and Russ needs to be more cognizant of that.

    I agree with the original premise of the thread that all parties are responsible. In Russ's case, he knew the parameters when he signed the contract and he's being paid to fulfill them. Creating waves isn't in the team's best interest.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    NFSeahawks628 wrote:Pete is to blame and Russell is to blame.

    Russell isnt consistant enough, needs to be able to methodically move down the field and he has rarely shown that ability.

    You think Russell Wilson is the reason? Why is it whenever we hit the 4th quarter he was able the methodically move the ball down the field? Why was he able to overcome huge deficits in the 4th quarter while being completely neutered for 3 quarters?


    You are smarter than this Spin. It is the defense that changes more than anything. Allowing teams to move down the field with easier completions when you have a lead happens to every team in the league to burn clock and prevent the quick over the top score. When we do it for other teams people always lament how Pete lets off the gas pedal and allows teams to come back, but if Wilson is in command of the offense, it's suddenly, "He's no longer neutered."
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  • You are smarter than this BASF.

    They go uptempo and Wilson has more command and control of the offense in those situations.
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  • BASF wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    NFSeahawks628 wrote:Pete is to blame and Russell is to blame.

    Russell isnt consistant enough, needs to be able to methodically move down the field and he has rarely shown that ability.

    You think Russell Wilson is the reason? Why is it whenever we hit the 4th quarter he was able the methodically move the ball down the field? Why was he able to overcome huge deficits in the 4th quarter while being completely neutered for 3 quarters?


    You are smarter than this Spin. It is the defense that changes more than anything. Allowing teams to move down the field with easier completions when you have a lead happens to every team in the league to burn clock and prevent the quick over the top score. When we do it for other teams people always lament how Pete lets off the gas pedal and allows teams to come back, but if Wilson is in command of the offense, it's suddenly, "He's no longer neutered."

    Why is it that even when the Seahawks are within a score that the Seahawks are able to seemingly move the ball down the field at will? Why is it that the Seahawks are able to get those long completions? You know what I see in the 4th quarter offenses? Urgency. They get to the LOS fast, they very the tempo up, I see Wilson changing plays, and most of all he has more time to read the defense. Why is it that many other teams that are stuck in the position Wilson constantly finds himself in the fourth quarter aren't able to overcome? The change in defense does not explain everything.

    As for Carroll, what you just talked about other teams doing with a lead is how Carroll prefers to play on offense, only he does it starting at the first snap.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    BASF wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    NFSeahawks628 wrote:Pete is to blame and Russell is to blame.

    Russell isnt consistant enough, needs to be able to methodically move down the field and he has rarely shown that ability.

    You think Russell Wilson is the reason? Why is it whenever we hit the 4th quarter he was able the methodically move the ball down the field? Why was he able to overcome huge deficits in the 4th quarter while being completely neutered for 3 quarters?


    You are smarter than this Spin. It is the defense that changes more than anything. Allowing teams to move down the field with easier completions when you have a lead happens to every team in the league to burn clock and prevent the quick over the top score. When we do it for other teams people always lament how Pete lets off the gas pedal and allows teams to come back, but if Wilson is in command of the offense, it's suddenly, "He's no longer neutered."

    Why is it that even when the Seahawks are within a score that the Seahawks are able to seemingly move the ball down the field at will? Why is it that the Seahawks are able to get those long completions? You know what I see in the 4th quarter offenses? Urgency. They get to the LOS fast, they very the tempo up, I see Wilson changing plays, and most of all he has more time to read the defense. Why is it that many other teams that are stuck in the position Wilson constantly finds himself in the fourth quarter aren't able to overcome? The change in defense does not explain everything.

    As for Carroll, what you just talked about other teams doing with a lead is how Carroll prefers to play on offense, only he does it starting at the first snap.



    FYi there have been times, though not enough, when we did this before the 4th qtr and still move it at will, so the whole premise is wrong.
    John63
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  • It's Pete.

    If you want to be the where all decisions begin and end guy, then you need to take responsibility for the outcome and put your old man pride in check to maybe, just maybe, entertain some new ideas. Beyond the usual 'well we need to focus' blah blah blah you spew to the media and fans. There's nothing wrong with being a hot B+ coach, who sometimes aces a test. But I don't really watch pro sports for the 'well, at least everyone played honest and enjoyed themselves' aspect. This isn't charity, by a long shot. How do you fine tune and clutch the brass ring? Not by having Pete make all of the decisions.

    The only harm that came from the 'Let Russ Cook' mini-era was the hit to Pete's ego.

    You only have to look at the Houston Texans (or Sea Mariners) to see what a huge cluster of top down disfunction can do to an organization. Are Pete's hands tied? How? By who? Nobody, but himself. And what's the cost to him? Little or nothing. He's almost 70. His record will be his final word, he has a ton of money. He won. Unless the Hawks go 1-10 next year, everyone will still blow sunshine up his ego hole. He'll have a nice bust int he Hall of Fame and respectable Wiki page. Good for him.

    So here we are. Next year will be no different than the last few. Maybe Russ or Pete will be forced out. Most likely the outcome will be a wasting of Wilson's talents while Pete coasts into a well earned retirement, with a huge gold watch. Fun.
    AubHawk71
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  • keasley45 wrote:Maybe its just the ultimate embodiment of the unique character of this team.

    Not to create yet another 'who's fault is it ' thread, but i wanted to post a possible scenario around how and why we are where we are with the team today that doesnt necessarily 'incriminate' anyone, but rather looks at the situation as just a case of trying to work through the gifts and challenges of a very unique circumstance and rare player at QB.

    I think we can all use a bit less of the polarizing talk when it comes to Pete vs Schotty (or whoever the OC will now be ) vs Russ and the blame game for who is responsible when we dont succeed. I've certainly been guilty of going down the rabbit hole when it comes to trying to untangle the mess of our season and the last several years. But I think at the end of the day, the reality is that there isnt a 'BAD GUY' in this plot. just a bunch of guys commited to trying to figure out the best way to win.And they are much closer to what's actually going on than we are. The best we can do is look at game film.

    Everyone is due their fair share of praise for the success we have seen and responsibility for the challenges.

    The two constants in this game are Russ and Pete. The OC, interchangeable - although it would be great if we could get some consistency at the position, the fact that we havent found that is beginning to look like evidence to me for what might really be going on. The team has been trying to figure itself out for a while now and i think what we just finally saw this season was hopefully the last phase of a long, 4 year exploration.

    I honestly believe that since the collapse of the LOB and the departure of Lynch, there has been a concerted effort to try to transition the team to RW, both from a leadership perspective, which i think he has done, but also from a scheme perspective, which to date we have struggled with. But ultimately what does that transition to a passing offense look like for such a unique QB.

    He's similar in height to D Brees but doesnt have Brees's savant like ability to diagnose a defense and hit 10 different WR a game consistently. Brees overcomes the challenge of maybe not being able to SEE everything by being so enmeshed in the plays that he can run the O with his eyes closed and hit his receivers anywhere on the field so long as they are where they are designed to be. He has a rare and uncanny abiliity in this sense and i'd wager that if there was a NEXT GEN stat that could measure his brain's ability to read and react, / process data, he'd be off the charts.

    Russ has come to defeat his issues with his physical stature by moving outside the pocket, releasing the ball and diagnosing plays from a deeper drop, and when all else fails, punishing a defense with is escapability and timely runs. Like Brees, he's incredibly accurate on the long ball and overall in general, when he has the opportunity to see where he's going with the ball. Russ, an uncanny pocket sense. Drew, an uncanny field sense. Again - my observation, not set in stone fact.

    But given the above, an offense built around a passing game will by default need to look a bit different for Drew than for Russ. To say that Russ can do what Drew can from a shear technical ability , is in my opinon just as foolish as someone expecting Brees to be able to do what Russ can (nobody in the league can do what he can). And thats not throwing shade on Russ, he's fully capable of executing an offense. Its more praise for Drew because the dude is just that good.

    The question is, what does that magical passing game look like for our QB?

    Well...

    It was apparent that the OC we had when we were built around a legendary defense and sledghammer in ballet shoes in Beastmode, no longer fit the profile for a team that was moving to a more aggressive passing game. He was let go.

    What did that more aggressive passing game mean? Nobody knew until this year because nobody had seen RW with reliable running backs and a philosophy that was built around his arm moreso than his legs. We'd come to know him as a QB that could make something out of nothing when the plays didnt go according to plan. He built his legend on improv - turning nothing into a mile long highlight reel of spectacular plays.

    But i think MAYBE at some point the improv act which had been just a tool for Russ, whether because of a poor play design, not being able to see receivers, not being able to process reads quickly, or being conditioned through years of HAVING to be ready to break from the scheme due to poor protection and do his own thing, became his default style of play.

    So now, enter Schottenheimer, a guy, for all the criticism leveled at him, showed that he could pull together some pretty effectve schemes. I dont know how much responsibility to assign the OC or the QB for the inability to effectively implement a passing game that was diverse in terms of its range of routes and combinations, but the results... well, we saw them. however, i dont think its s a stretch to assume that RW is a contributing factor. He cant NOT be for the adjustments that have to be made for his height alone (deeper drops, slightly longer developing routes). And that's not bashing him at all, it just is what it is.

    The question beyond that is how much of his natural tendency to want to move out of the pocket to see routes is absolutely necessary (ie , how much CAN he see at a 3 or 5 step drop from under center or a catch and release from shotgun) vs it just now being how he plays. If its how he's been conditioned to play, then the challenge is re instilling the discipline to run the offense called - essentially reconditioning him to know the field and trust it and on occassion, throw blind to a spot you trust a wr to be. If its vision (he CANT see the field in certain instances) and his ability to analyze a read, post snap iand trust it is severely impaired because his defuault reaction for 9 years has been to get the ball and move, then that's a bit more difficult to overcome. And it could also certainly by both - and likely is.

    Either way, now at year 10, then the offensive strategy needs to shift. If he can get his discipline back, he should eventually be able to make the reads and get the ball out quickly. And again, i dont know whether what we saw this year from him (patting the ball, the double clutches, the indecisiveness) was a failure in being able to drop back and 1,2,3 read, react and get the ball out to the open guy in the flow of the offense, or if t was that he was trying to do it but couldnt see, and thus was constantly forced to break pocket and look deeper, which right off the bat negates the playcall and puts the chances of the down succeeding on RW and a given wr's ability to read eachother and connect. however, from what i've seen on tape over 16 weeks, i can say comfortably that although you can criticize Schotty fro maybe not adapting in game with a reasonable quickness or not calling up enough plays to RB's, there were A LOT of plays left on the field. And it could just be that the disconnect between PC and Schotty that led to his firing was a desire on Schotty's part to keep trying down the road of getting RW to function more effectively as a complete passer in the flow of the offense and plays called, getting him to use the whole field. Whereas Pete sees the best path to move the offense and RW forward being to stop trying to push him to do what he now obviously struggles to do and supplement the short pass game quick reads and a more methodical progression down the field, with a more schematically diverse and intentional run game.

    And that run game CAN get us where we want to go. If its effective, it sets up all of those incredible passes Russ is known for. On its own, it can be lethal either by virtue of its diversity or its factor of intimidation. Which, depends on who is running the rock. The one thing i will say thats a bit concerning is that even if Carson comes back, between he and Penny, we have a back that is lightning quick through the hole and a bulldozer, but struggles to break long runs and a RB who dances too much in finding the holes, but can take it to the house on any given play if he breaks the first line of defense. Because they are so different, WHEN we deploy them in a game can be a tell as to what we want to do. If chris is in we are a bit more diverse, although he doesnt have great long or edge speed. When Penny is in, its likely going outside. What we need to really help Russ is either a scheme that can leverage both styles effectively, or a different back altogether. Someone like Jones in GB or conceptually the tandems that Cleveland or KC run. In the case of KC and Cleveland, either back can go inside or outside, but they each have their obvious strengths.

    If you cant draw up short to middle pass plays, you have to develop a combination of longer developing passes and screens with a FAST running attack that is effective on the edges early in games and a PUNISHING one up the middle late. Gaining 5 yards consistently on swing plays, and runs off tackle forces defenses to play the width of the field. I think its why we saw the hawks constantly trying to establish the edge running game even though they knew they could reliably get 3.5 ypc between the tackles. without a consistent threat to spread the d-line and backers out, the field gets small for both runs and passes. And even harder for a shorter QB to fit the ball into tight openings.

    The running game, and a well designed one that stretches the defense and punishes it seems to me to not be simply the preference of a head coach, but if any of the above is remotely true, pretty much necessary in getting RW back on the track to success.

    this post is wayyyy too long but thats only because the challenges the team now faces (and i guess has faced all along) are complex and not as cut and dry as letting Russ cook, or keeping Pete out of a playbook, Russ being broken, or the OC being a dud. There's a ton that Pete and the coordinators are looking at on O to unlock the potential of this team. Some of it is in just unlocking (not unleashing) Russ, some of it is scheme, some of it, personnel and all of it doable.

    We've been quick to condemn coaches and players for the failures to date but in all honesty, like everything else about the franchise, the difficulty in finding the ultimate success over the last few years is like everything else around this team, due to the fact that the circumstances are just sooo unique. Starting with the QB. And thats a blessing and a curse. But it is what it is. Cant believe i'm about to say this but it genuinely in this case really is all about the process and evolving.

    I'm confident we will get there.


    ;tldr
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    I presume you have a link to were it says over half right? Never mind you dont, So we have a link with facts saying our oline was bad, and no link for fact showing over half is on Wilson.. HMMM fact or fiction. I will go with fact thanks.


    I am over blaming everyone but the HC for the crappy oline we have had for now 10 years.


    I said our O-line was ranked 14th in 2020.

    https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020 ... e-rankings

    That's top half of the league. Not great, but also not the dumpster fire you guys make it out to be every year so you have something to blame for Russell getting sacked too much.

    He's great at getting out of trouble and making plays, but as he ages it's less and less every year. If you don't see that he holds onto the ball too long and takes too many sacks, which contributes to Dome's stat? Then I can't help you.

    Half, 30%, 40%, 70%........pick whatever percentage you want. It's a terrible stat to prove our O-line is bad.


    my apologies for coming across s snarky. Tired of watching a bad oline year in and out and having some try to blame everyone but the person responsible for the oline Also I do see how he causes some of the sacks, I also see how in most cases he has no choice since everyone is sent long. However, I don't think the sacks he causes are near as many as you think. FYI Footballoustisders has our oline ranked as 27th in pass blocking. They started charging, so I can't share a link. I would agree they were pretty good in the first half of the year, but we also faced alot of very weak defenses. As we started facing better defenses they looked really bad. In fact on KJR they were saying Wilson was hit, hurried, sacked or pressured on over 50% of his drop backs. That is not good.


    Russell's continually at the bottom of the list every year in the "time to throw" stat.

    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    This year's he's almost at 3 seconds, and this stat has continuously increased over the past five years. Not a good sign for an aging QB that still thinks he can duck out of trouble and make plays, and is becoming less and less effective at doing so.

    So yeah, I'm all for a better O-line. But again, pass pro is not a good stat IMO to throw out there when it comes to the O-line that has to block for Russell.



    Time to throw is not an indication of hits and sacks when it comes to Wilson. He has been getting hit and sacked FAR MORE than other QBs with similar time to throw numbers over the years. I would argue Wilson saves the offense more than he hurts it, by escaping pressure his entire time here. Yes, even in 2020. There’s a reason the Packers D-line after last year’s playoff, said sacking Wilson is like trying to catch a chicken. You think you have him then you don’t.

    NFL players in the top 100, said if this was Madden Russ would have 100 pocket awareness. With an elite O-line, which he has literally never had (because poor drafting), Wilson would still be able to hold the ball and make more great plays. The game winning TD against Dallas? He had plenty of time. That’s the way it should be.

    A good O-line completely opens up the offense. The Athletic highlighted that our O-line was ranked near the bottom of the league for the last 8 games.
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