My Kngdom for an Oline

Watching the games yesterday I was struck by how good the Olines were for all the teams still in the playoffs. We have a good QB, good receivers, good running backs, but we don't have the horses up front. We need some new linemen and backups that can fill in without a big drop off in performance. It is the biggest weakness of the Pete Carrol era. Give Russell more time, and always give him an outlet receiver and open some damn holes for Carson and Penny and Hyde and we will dominate. GB practically ran at will against the Rams. Josh Allen made batches of wings in the pocket while he surveyed the field. Probably fed them to his Oline.

Cooking takes time.

It's not rocket surgery, it's an Oline.

I was pondering making a thread about this very thing because it seems a lot of people are back on the Pete bandwagon of yeah let’s run more to set up the play action deep pass and it bugs me because to make that work you have to have a solid offensive line both for pass protection for those time consuming 5-7 step dropbacks as well as run blocking.

And yet the very thing you need a fantastic offensive line to make work is the very thing Pete has never invested heavily in. It’s bizarre, and the only reason it worked in the Super Bowl appearances was because we had lynch who regularly needed to break tackles just to get to the line of scrimmage, and we had/have Wilson who was/is great at dodging sacks and making miracles happen on pass protection breakdowns.

Not to mention the LOB to rely on when all those 3 and out punts rolled in despite Wilson’s and Lynch’s best efforts. I remember well all those drive killing offensive line penalties from having to block for 10 seconds straight

Yet one more reason why Pete is simply the wrong man for the job here, as if poor scheming, adjusting, clock management, and predictability weren’t playoff killers for us as it is.


We do not have a RB like Lynch, Wilson is no longer as elusive as he used to be, and there’s no evidence Pete is going to give us a strong oline. Peteball simply will not work.

I am completely unqualified to be a coach and barely know what I am watching, but if I was to build a team I would start with the O-line and D-line. I have wanted a stud O-line since Pete's first season. With limited cap and scant draft picks, I am not too hopeful there will be any new additions to the position. Hopefully the players still under contract will improve.

It’s a little deceiving when Rogers gets the ball out so fast. Russ hangs on way WAY too long. We are never going to find 5 lineman that can hold a block on a decent DL for 4 sec. We have to get quicker in getting the ball out in my opinion.

The Ron Wolf way that Schneider learned under is all about using mid to late-round draft picks to build Olines.

The best O lines in the NFL are not built with high round draft picks. They are built with bargain bin free agents and mid-round draft picks.

Packers Oline

David Bakhtiari 4th round draft pick All-Pro
Cory Lindsley 5th round draft pick All-Pro
Billy Turner bargain bin free agent
Lance Taylor UDFA
Ricky Wagner big-money free agent with the Lions, bargain bin free agent with the Packers.

Rams Oline
3 bargain bin free agents a 2nd and 5th round draft pick

Bills Oline
4 bargain bin free agents and 2nd round draft pick

With salary cap football the Oline coach is turning out to be more important than the team's OC. Teams must be able to find the right coach who can find and develop the Oline so the team can use the cap savings for QBs and impact players.

sdog1981":97frdcbe said:

The Ron Wolf way that Schneider learned under is all about using mid to late-round draft picks to build Olines.

The best O lines in the NFL are not built with high round draft picks. They are built with bargain bin free agents and mid-round draft picks.

Packers Oline

David Bakhtiari 4th round draft pick All-Pro
Cory Lindsley 5th round draft pick All-Pro
Billy Turner bargain bin free agent
Lance Taylor UDFA
Ricky Wagner big-money free agent with the Lions, bargain bin free agent with the Packers.

Rams Oline
3 bargain bin free agents a 2nd and 5th round draft pick

Bills Oline
4 bargain bin free agents and 2nd round draft pick

With salary cap football the Oline coach is turning out to be more important than the team's OC. Teams must be able to find the right coach who can find and develop the Oline so the team can use the cap savings for QBs and impact players.

Click to expand...

You might not intend it that way but I see this as another indictment of Pete, either for being terrible at drafting oline or terrible at finding oline coaches and staying with terrible ones far too long.

We have one potential stud lineman, Dame Lewis.

He’ll take some more time to develop but, I have more faith in him than any other lineman on the team.

We have one. Not a lot but you gotta start somewhere.

Carroll and his team of scouts just aren’t great talent evaluators.

I think that has to be recognized first.

You may see the same thing from the Browns today, although their LT just got injured. A great O-line that gives their QB time instead of putting the QB under pressure immediately.

This is what Rodgers looks like when the pocket collapses quickly and the scheme isn't creative enough to open up receivers quickly:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Cole__C/status/907042748917788673[/tweet]


[tweet]https://twitter.com/QBFilmRoom/status/1064061709801934848[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/samuelrgold/status/1063271242747338752[/tweet]


And then there are these two plays. In the first one, Rodgers does a great job moving in the Pocket in the first one. But notice that there are NO FREE RUSHERS going to the QB. The pocket did not collapse and crowd him in like the videos above. He was able to move around a bit and deliver a strike. We saw Russ do this in the first 6 weeks of the season when the O-line held up well.

Oh, and he is HOLDING THE BALL for more than 5 seconds. The issue isn't holding the ball, it is O-line protection:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/espn/status/1350586418318471171[/tweet]


Then look at this play. Completely clean pocket. From snap to throw, 3 seconds. And Rodgers is allowed to stay calm, cool, and the receiver becomes open down the field immediately.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ringernfl/status/1350598150122205185[/tweet]

3-2-16-4-6":1h3l2bwf said:

It’s a little deceiving when Rogers gets the ball out so fast. Russ hangs on way WAY too long. We are never going to find 5 lineman that can hold a block on a decent DL for 4 sec. We have to get quicker in getting the ball out in my opinion.

Click to expand...

However to do that we need to scheme people open quick. We don't do that.

John63":3jae4w0d said:

3-2-16-4-6":3jae4w0d said:

It’s a little deceiving when Rogers gets the ball out so fast. Russ hangs on way WAY too long. We are never going to find 5 lineman that can hold a block on a decent DL for 4 sec. We have to get quicker in getting the ball out in my opinion.

Click to expand...

However to do that we need to scheme people open quick. We don't do that.

Click to expand...

Yes we do.

3 step drops, quick passing, screen game, reverses, misdirection. Gotta slow up the DL. Schotty was useless.

run plays up the gut with the RO that was never kept and 7 step drops isn't fooling anybody.

Imagine scheming people open? I know, crazy talk. Mahomes hasn't thrown to a covered receiver all day.

OLine? Yes please. Aaron Rodgers and Josh Allen have all day back there!

Meanwhile, of QB gets the hell beat out of him! 48 sacks for 304 yards! That's 3 time s every game! An average of a 7 years loss per play!

Year, after year, after year...and that doesn't take in to account the Hits and Pressures.

Answer me this, what mediocre 9 and 7 team beat the GOAT twice in the Superbowl? And how? Giants, by hitting the GOAT over and over and throwing Mr Perfect off of his game.

How in the hell does Pete expect Russell Wilson to win games when he getting the hell beat out of him?

Remember all that exciting scoring early in the season? Russell would have all day back there because the referees weren't calling holding very often.

IIRC, didn't we pass on Joel Bitonio?

TheLegendOfBoom":1n12dkop said:

We have one potential stud lineman, Dame Lewis.

He’ll take some more time to develop but, I have more faith in him than any other lineman on the team.

We have one. Not a lot but you gotta start somewhere.

Carroll and his team of scouts just aren’t great talent evaluators.

I think that has to be recognized first.

Click to expand...

Gotta say Carrol has been pretty awful when it comes to o-line... anything. I guess I can see the logic behind investing frugally in the early years when you have and exceptionally elusive qb in Wilson. But whether it's talent evaluation, coaching, or scheme, save for one season, it hasn't worked.

I do agree that Wilson does his line no favors with his tendency to hold the balla nd just not pull the trigger, but they also haven't been especially remarkable in run blocking or pass pro.

A huge part of this offensive rebuild should be investing in some big men up front so that Russ can get comfortable and work through whatever it is he needs to to get better.

Our O-line is made to look worse than it is due to our scheming and play calling. They're not great for sure, but they're far from trash.

ivotuk":28vad5pz said:

OLine? Yes please. Aaron Rodgers and Josh Allen have all day back there!

Meanwhile, of QB gets the hell beat out of him! 48 sacks for 304 yards! That's 3 time s every game! An average of a 7 years loss per play!

Year, after year, after year...and that doesn't take in to account the Hits and Pressures.

Answer me this, what mediocre 9 and 7 team beat the GOAT twice in the Superbowl? And how? Giants, by hitting the GOAT over and over and throwing Mr Perfect off of his game.

How in the hell does Pete expect Russell Wilson to win games when he getting the hell beat out of him?

Remember all that exciting scoring early in the season? Russell would have all day back there because the referees weren't calling holding very often.

IIRC, didn't we pass on Joel Bitonio?

Click to expand...

The hawks need better pass protection / run blocking AND Russ needs to get the ball out. He creates a lot of his own sacks. He ran himself into at least 2 in the Rams game and another at least 2 against the Giants. And that's not counting the other games.. When you're watching the telecast it all just looks like pressure unless the commentators point it out otherwise.

Any idea what the mid round prospects look like next year? We absolutlry need a solid left guard. The lack of consistency there with iupati was crippling. D Brown is solid but is getting up there. Starting to give me visions of Howard Ballard.

Pocic had been a nice find but it would be great to get a mauler there.

After watching the divisional teams play though it just looks like they do more than we do with their pulls and stunts.. Don't know if that was all Schotty, Solari, a combo of the two?

keasley45":1i08amp4 said:

TheLegendOfBoom":1i08amp4 said:

We have one potential stud lineman, Dame Lewis.

He’ll take some more time to develop but, I have more faith in him than any other lineman on the team.

We have one. Not a lot but you gotta start somewhere.

Carroll and his team of scouts just aren’t great talent evaluators.

I think that has to be recognized first.

Click to expand...

Gotta say Carrol has been pretty awful when it comes to o-line... anything. I guess I can see the logic behind investing frugally in the early years when you have and exceptionally elusive qb in Wilson. But whether it's talent evaluation, coaching, or scheme, save for one season, it hasn't worked.

I do agree that Wilson does his line no favors with his tendency to hold the balla nd just not pull the trigger, but they also haven't been especially remarkable in run blocking or pass pro.

A huge part of this offensive rebuild should be investing in some big men up front so that Russ can get comfortable and work through whatever it is he needs to to get better.

Click to expand...

Not just Bitonio. They also passed on Ramczyk. So not the only OL they missed. I'm pretty sure we could have built a rock solid line with all the first and second round picks they passed on the last few years.

2 problems with acquiring a gr8 OL . Availability of top end players and of course lots of $$$ to acquire and keep them long term . The only other way would be through the draft . The problem is that all 32 teams are always on the hunt for quality linemen .

kf3339":y5yj11bi said:

keasley45":y5yj11bi said:

TheLegendOfBoom":y5yj11bi said:

We have one potential stud lineman, Dame Lewis.

He’ll take some more time to develop but, I have more faith in him than any other lineman on the team.

We have one. Not a lot but you gotta start somewhere.

Carroll and his team of scouts just aren’t great talent evaluators.

I think that has to be recognized first.

Click to expand...

Gotta say Carrol has been pretty awful when it comes to o-line... anything. I guess I can see the logic behind investing frugally in the early years when you have and exceptionally elusive qb in Wilson. But whether it's talent evaluation, coaching, or scheme, save for one season, it hasn't worked.

I do agree that Wilson does his line no favors with his tendency to hold the balla nd just not pull the trigger, but they also haven't been especially remarkable in run blocking or pass pro.

A huge part of this offensive rebuild should be investing in some big men up front so that Russ can get comfortable and work through whatever it is he needs to to get better.

Click to expand...

Not just Bitonio. They also passed on Ramczyk. So not the only OL they missed. I'm pretty sure we could have built a rock solid line with all the first and second round picks they passed on the last few years.

Click to expand...

Carroll and his talent evaluators couldn’t find talent at the pro-bowl...jokes.

It's been the same ole story for the last four years at least. Gotta get a top-10 O-line.

We had best pass blocking line for this era with 14th rank.