For the "wasting Russ" crowd

gowazzu02 · Jan 25, 2021

So this was trending on twitter yesterday after Brady knocked out Rodgers following the knock out of brees.

Look at the historically great qb's of this generation.

Rodgers 1 Super bowl win, only 1 appearance
Brees 1 Super bowl win, only 1 appearance
Manning 2 super bowl wins, 4 appearances
Wilson 1 Super bowl win, 2 appearances
Brady 6 wins and 10 appearances

Think about that, for as great as Rodgers and Brees are/were they only have 1 win each. Said another way, Tom Brady is the best to ever have done it. If you don't have him, you win about as much as we have with a historically great QB.

Now Brady gave the pats a discount all those years, and I don't know what he's making in Tampa, so maybe that's part of the reason for the success.

Thought this was interesting for the folks who seem to think Pete's wasting Russ.

Hawaii-hawk · Jan 25, 2021

Division strength and conference strength have a lot to do with it. Patriots undoubtedly great coach and qb but their division has been essentially gifting them 5-6 free wins for decades, and only 4 other AFC teams have ever seen the Super Bowl during that same timespan. Absolutely pathetic the lack of parity, and if you’re a great team facing garbage every year then you’re sure to be in really good shape seeding wise in the playoffs which is exactly what we’ve seen from the patriots.

The NFC by contrast has had an incredible amount of parity year to year. What the Seahawks have been able to accomplish is very respectable on paper. However, the lack of noticeable quality wins against strong opponents is a problem. Heck, the lack of ANY quality wins against virtually ANY team is a problem.

If we played the Girl Scouts, for example, got 3 yards of offense in the first quarter, blew timeouts on dumb challenges and poor clock management, and needed overtime to win it 7-3, would anyone be surprised? Probably not a single one of us. Yet would there be significant issues demonstrated by a game like this despite a win on paper? Absolutely. And when we see games like this, historically bad numbers displayed by the Seahawks game after game, year after year culminating in getting blasted out of the playoffs in mirror mode fashion, I’m personally not content by the paper win/loss column anymore.

gowazzu02 · Jan 25, 2021

Hawaii-hawk":1ovaez50 said:
Division strength and conference strength have a lot to do with it. Patriots undoubtedly great coach and qb but their division has been essentially gifting them 5-6 free wins for decades, and only 4 other AFC teams have ever seen the Super Bowl during that same timespan. Absolutely pathetic the lack of parity, and if you’re a great team facing garbage every year then you’re sure to be in really good shape seeding wise in the playoffs which is exactly what we’ve seen from the patriots.

The NFC by contrast has had an incredible amount of parity year to year. What the Seahawks have been able to accomplish is very respectable on paper. However, the lack of noticeable quality wins against strong opponents is a problem. Heck, the lack of ANY quality wins against virtually ANY team is a problem.

If we played the Girl Scouts, for example, got 3 yards of offense in the first quarter, blew timeouts on dumb challenges and poor clock management, and needed overtime to win it 7-3, would anyone be surprised? Probably not a single one of us. Yet would there be significant issues demonstrated by a game like this despite a win on paper? Absolutely. And when we see games like this, historically bad numbers displayed by the Seahawks game after game, year after year culminating in getting blasted out of the playoffs in mirror mode fashion, I’m personally not content by the paper win/loss column anymore.

The thing that baffles me (off topic a smidge) is the complete lack of game time score awareness this entire playoffs.

GB kicking a FG down 8 w 2 mins to go yesterday
Bills continually kicking FG's even though Mahomes was slaughtering them on the other side
Vrabel punting on his own 40ish down late in the 4th
There are other examples that I'm sure I'm forgetting but yes, your point is valid, Pete struggles with timeouts/challenges/decisions but dang it if the entire league doesn't do that as well. It's crazy.

bmorepunk · Jan 25, 2021

gowazzu02":3q023bdl said:
Now Brady gave the pats a discount all those years, and I don't know what he's making in Tampa, so maybe that's part of the reason for the success.

On Salary:

Brady's 2020 cap hit is $27.375 million. Wilson's is $31 million. So it's less than $4 million in difference, not exactly the cap saver that lets you sign all kinds of players. The real starter who cost under $18 million cap hit this year that isn't on a rookie deal or in the transition year after their extension off one is Bridgewater. Guys like Brissett, Smith, and Carr were over $21 million cap hits. Rodgers was just over that, but his hit next year is over $37 million.

The only two options if you get rid of Wilson on cap is get a mediocre vet and save like $10 million, or hope you're really lucky with a rookie and really save. The first option will get you a dude that won't keep you in it like Wilson can, and the second option is a low probability.

On Wasting Wilson:

This team is competitive, every single year. Dude has as good a shot here on in a multi-year situation as he would with almost any other coach/team. We'd all like to see more playoff wins and championships. But they're hard to get.

gowazzu02 · Jan 25, 2021

bmorepunk":40p9ewsx said:
gowazzu02":40p9ewsx said:

Now Brady gave the pats a discount all those years, and I don't know what he's making in Tampa, so maybe that's part of the reason for the success.

Click to expand...

We'd all like to see more playoff wins and championships. But they're hard to get.

Yup, that's the big take away from the original post. It's freaking hard to win in the NFL.

John63 · Jan 25, 2021

The same argument can go to the we cant win with Wilson or Wilson sucks crowd.

HagFaithful · Jan 25, 2021

Maybe Russ is wasting Pete? You can't expect the guy to clap and smack gum forever...

jeremiah · Jan 25, 2021

gowazzu02":1sqiyjjf said:
Hawaii-hawk":1sqiyjjf said:

Division strength and conference strength have a lot to do with it. Patriots undoubtedly great coach and qb but their division has been essentially gifting them 5-6 free wins for decades, and only 4 other AFC teams have ever seen the Super Bowl during that same timespan. Absolutely pathetic the lack of parity, and if you’re a great team facing garbage every year then you’re sure to be in really good shape seeding wise in the playoffs which is exactly what we’ve seen from the patriots.

The NFC by contrast has had an incredible amount of parity year to year. What the Seahawks have been able to accomplish is very respectable on paper. However, the lack of noticeable quality wins against strong opponents is a problem. Heck, the lack of ANY quality wins against virtually ANY team is a problem.

If we played the Girl Scouts, for example, got 3 yards of offense in the first quarter, blew timeouts on dumb challenges and poor clock management, and needed overtime to win it 7-3, would anyone be surprised? Probably not a single one of us. Yet would there be significant issues demonstrated by a game like this despite a win on paper? Absolutely. And when we see games like this, historically bad numbers displayed by the Seahawks game after game, year after year culminating in getting blasted out of the playoffs in mirror mode fashion, I’m personally not content by the paper win/loss column anymore.

Click to expand...

The thing that baffles me (off topic a smidge) is the complete lack of game time score awareness this entire playoffs.

GB kicking a FG down 8 w 2 mins to go yesterday
Bills continually kicking FG's even though Mahomes was slaughtering them on the other side
Vrabel punting on his own 40ish down late in the 4th
There are other examples that I'm sure I'm forgetting but yes, your point is valid, Pete struggles with timeouts/challenges/decisions but dang it if the entire league doesn't do that as well. It's crazy.

If the goal is being competitive, Russ is a great fit for a team. If the goal is to win Championships? He is best as trade bait. He is simply this generations version of that old Philadelphia bridesmaid McNabb. If Russell Wilson of 2012 was available at the position of the draft for Seattle to take today, would you take him? OF COURSE, because he had 9 years of winning ahead of him. The thing is, the wheels are falling off. Like Michael Vick, who went to Philly and looked as great as he ever was, even better.... Russell NEEDS a West Coast system and a fresh start. He is on the wrong team, and someone will take him and give Seattle a chance to find another guy who will play great someday. This team is looking to me like the Mariners. Full of great players, really there are some great players, but more of a farm team for others. PETE is the problem, they are wasting Russell, or maybe already did waste his best years. It is time to move on IMO. Take a gamble, get some picks and fer Crissakes get rid of that 70 year old cheerleader called Pete by even his players. Who does that? You call the coach, COACH forever.

PNW · Jan 25, 2021

John63":3asiei3x said:
The same argument can go to the we cant win with Wilson or Wilson sucks crowd.

I haven’t heard anyone say Wilson sucks, some fans are critical of his play and hold him to a higher standard than others, but no one said he sucked.

John63 · Jan 25, 2021

PNW":hzxi51o1 said:
John63":hzxi51o1 said:

The same argument can go to the we cant win with Wilson or Wilson sucks crowd.

Click to expand...

I haven’t heard anyone say Wilson sucks, some fans are critical of his play and hold him to a higher standard than others, but no one said he sucked.

Yeah there are some, right hear thus forum.

SoulfishHawk · Jan 26, 2021

Well, Lord Rodgers is 1-4 in Championship games. He can have his cute MVP awards and stats.
Stats don't win game. He hasn't gotten the job done in the playoffs, period.

gowazzu02 · Jan 26, 2021

jeremiah":1ncfno2v said:
gowazzu02":1ncfno2v said:

Hawaii-hawk":1ncfno2v said:

Division strength and conference strength have a lot to do with it. Patriots undoubtedly great coach and qb but their division has been essentially gifting them 5-6 free wins for decades, and only 4 other AFC teams have ever seen the Super Bowl during that same timespan. Absolutely pathetic the lack of parity, and if you’re a great team facing garbage every year then you’re sure to be in really good shape seeding wise in the playoffs which is exactly what we’ve seen from the patriots.

The NFC by contrast has had an incredible amount of parity year to year. What the Seahawks have been able to accomplish is very respectable on paper. However, the lack of noticeable quality wins against strong opponents is a problem. Heck, the lack of ANY quality wins against virtually ANY team is a problem.

If we played the Girl Scouts, for example, got 3 yards of offense in the first quarter, blew timeouts on dumb challenges and poor clock management, and needed overtime to win it 7-3, would anyone be surprised? Probably not a single one of us. Yet would there be significant issues demonstrated by a game like this despite a win on paper? Absolutely. And when we see games like this, historically bad numbers displayed by the Seahawks game after game, year after year culminating in getting blasted out of the playoffs in mirror mode fashion, I’m personally not content by the paper win/loss column anymore.

Click to expand...

The thing that baffles me (off topic a smidge) is the complete lack of game time score awareness this entire playoffs.

GB kicking a FG down 8 w 2 mins to go yesterday
Bills continually kicking FG's even though Mahomes was slaughtering them on the other side
Vrabel punting on his own 40ish down late in the 4th
There are other examples that I'm sure I'm forgetting but yes, your point is valid, Pete struggles with timeouts/challenges/decisions but dang it if the entire league doesn't do that as well. It's crazy.

Click to expand...

If the goal is being competitive, Russ is a great fit for a team. If the goal is to win Championships? He is best as trade bait. He is simply this generations version of that old Philadelphia bridesmaid McNabb. If Russell Wilson of 2012 was available at the position of the draft for Seattle to take today, would you take him? OF COURSE, because he had 9 years of winning ahead of him. The thing is, the wheels are falling off. Like Michael Vick, who went to Philly and looked as great as he ever was, even better.... Russell NEEDS a West Coast system and a fresh start. He is on the wrong team, and someone will take him and give Seattle a chance to find another guy who will play great someday. This team is looking to me like the Mariners. Full of great players, really there are some great players, but more of a farm team for others. PETE is the problem, they are wasting Russell, or maybe already did waste his best years. It is time to move on IMO. Take a gamble, get some picks and fer Crissakes get rid of that 70 year old cheerleader called Pete by even his players. Who does that? You call the coach, COACH forever.

You really just compared the Seahawks, who've been to the playoffs in 8 of the last 9 years to the Mariners who have the longest playoff drought in American professional sports???

While simultaneously ignoring the original post. So with your logic, NO wasted Brees, GB wasted Rodgers, Indy wasted Manning. The only QB who isn't wasted is Brady.

Sgt. Largent · Jan 26, 2021

John63":3nacs0i9 said:
The same argument can go to the we cant win with Wilson or Wilson sucks crowd.

This is a 5 or 6 win team without Russell. If that.

Are we "wasting" Russell? No. Dude's on his way to the Hall of Fame, so no one can say we're wasting Russell.

Now are we maximizing his skillset in order to possibly GET TO as many SB's as possible? Maybe. Probably.

SoulfishHawk · Jan 26, 2021

This right here ^

Maybe a 6 win team w/out him.

rcaido · Jan 26, 2021

With our O-line? I see us maybe winning 3or4 games depending on who we play that year. I doubt we can win a game in our division, its tough enough w/ an elite qb.

bmorepunk · Jan 26, 2021

Can you imagine how bad those first eight weeks would have been without Wilson? I didn't like that he was out there slinging it so much late in the game because the defense couldn't stop anything, but without it, consistent massacres.

SoulfishHawk · Jan 26, 2021

Well, Pete did seem to neuter him mid-season. Instead of letting him be the QB he's capable of.
And the players on this offense have to be pretty frustrated with how different the games were called on the offensive side of the ball. All after averaging over 34 for most of the first half of the season. They have the QB and talent on offense to be very very good. But for some reason, it became overly cautious, fear based play calling. Take what the defense gives you, adjust and get it done. They almost seemed to refuse to adjust to what a defense was giving them. That's on coaching as much as anything. And Russ seemed to lose his confidence at times and/or had the "don't turn the ball over" crap in his head from Pete over and over again. Not playing to the strength of your QB is a waste.

Tinamedina · Jan 26, 2021

SoulfishHawk":3ke82niv said:
Well, Pete did seem to neuter him mid-season. Instead of letting him be the QB he's capable of.
And the players on this offense have to be pretty frustrated with how different the games were called on the offensive side of the ball. All after averaging over 34 for most of the first half of the season. They have the QB and talent on offense to be very very good. But for some reason, it became overly cautious, fear based play calling. Take what the defense gives you, adjust and get it done. They almost seemed to refuse to adjust to what a defense was giving them. That's on coaching as much as anything. And Russ seemed to lose his confidence at times and/or had the "don't turn the ball over" crap in his head from Pete over and over again. Not playing to the strength of your QB is a waste.

A TOTAL waste. There is still time to win superbowls, but it's now or never. Pete has to evolve or retire.

IndyHawk · Jan 26, 2021

SoulfishHawk":3a2zes5a said:
Well, Pete did seem to neuter him mid-season. Instead of letting him be the QB he's capable of.
And the players on this offense have to be pretty frustrated with how different the games were called on the offensive side of the ball. All after averaging over 34 for most of the first half of the season. They have the QB and talent on offense to be very very good. But for some reason, it became overly cautious, fear based play calling. Take what the defense gives you, adjust and get it done. They almost seemed to refuse to adjust to what a defense was giving them. That's on coaching as much as anything. And Russ seemed to lose his confidence at times and/or had the "don't turn the ball over" crap in his head from Pete over and over again. Not playing to the strength of your QB is a waste.

I get what your saying but remember the defense was not getting any rest and being
beat to death with risk of losing all hope.
Yes it was fine to a point when your scoring more and winning BUT then came the
10 turnovers in 4 games by Russ after a bye?Then we lost some games and of
course Pete had to change things..Build the D back up,reduce to's and win.
It was ugly,boring and sometimes stupid but it worked till the playoffs anyway.

SoulfishHawk · Jan 27, 2021

Absolutely. When they were on that historic pace of being bad (like we hear 754 times a day) he had to try to carry the team. Thus, forcing things a LOT and more turnovers happened. And while it was hard to watch, some of those were not on him. But at the same time, the Defense was so bad the first half of the season, you're asking your QB to carry the team, all while having brutal play calling. That's too much to ask of any QB. And no, I am NOT trying to make a bunch of excuses for Russ. They need him to play better, and he knows that, I have zero doubt about that.

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