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Wanna hear the story about how Carroll erased Norm Chow?

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  • "Erased" my ass. Chow moved on to the NFL with a much higher salary, ran a crappy Titans offense, and never did jack diddly squat afterwards. He went to UCLA, ran one of the worst offenses in the entire nation. Went to Hawaii, lost like it was going out of style. Put on a CLINIC for those who want to learn how to lose.

    Why wouldn't you want to elevate your young talent and invest in it instead of the old guy who ended up trying several times afterwards and always failing to put together a successful offense? Kiffin and Sark have both had more success than Norm Chow has post-USC, despite Kiffin being a douche and Sark publicly descending into alcoholism.

    Seriously, go ahead. Look at everything Norm Chow did post-USC, and tell me which part of that indicates that he was this incredible, unmatchable offensive mind that Pete Carroll hated because he was good.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Speaking of 'investing in the old guy', isn't that what keeping Carroll and getting rid of Wilson would be?

    Wilson is actively pushing back against the Seahawk FO control, notably Carroll since he controls the FO.

    The team better take Wilson's side on this because Carroll's side is going to lead to a lot of losing and disappointment.

    But yes, Carroll is very very vigilant about making sure people beneath him toe the line. This again was something from as long ago as USC. Certainly followed him here.
    TwistedHusky
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  • It is an interesting story, but as usual the title really overplays what went down here. Even Chow indicates that it was ultimately his choice to leave and he left to make more money in a more prestigious position. However, it doesn't mean that Pete took the correct approach here either.

    Pardon me while I wildly speculate for a moment how Pete's philosophy during his time at USC and currently with the Seahawks could be causing some unanticipated negative side-effects on the organization as a whole and on Wilson. I want to acknowledge there are extremely positive results that have come from Pete's approach, but in order to keep this shorter, I am going to focus on potential negatives.

    Carroll's Philosophy
    If anyone has ready Pete's book, Win Forever, you will undoubtedly come away with the understanding that Pete's philosophy is derived in large part from the positive thinking movement which interestingly has its roots in mid-19th century "healing" experiments. At its core, it is the belief that one can literally will positive outcomes if one simply puts all their energy into positive thoughts. More recent subject matter on this topic include the book titled The Secret (2006). On the surface it can sound crazy, it does have some actual benefits, but it also has some significant pitfalls. Namely, in-authenticity. If someone only focuses on the positive, they will, at worst, ignore problems, and at best, significantly downplay them, invariably stunting adaptation and problem solving.

    Potential Signs of Negative Impacts
      Pete's tendency to hold onto his coordinators longer than some think reasonable given their performance.
      The whole debacle over accountability for "the play" in LIX (maybe he just wanted to move past it?)
      Seeming avoidance of even acknowledging locker room challenges
      His apparent aggravation with press questions related to negative topics
      His seemingly overly positive outlook on every significant injury when predicting return dates

    Has this impacted Russel Wilson?
    Continuous positive thinking breeds in-authenticity and where might we observe this in Wilson?
    You know the term "dress for success"? Take a look at Wilson's wardrobe transformation from when he first boarded that plane with his teammates to Hawaii in docker pants and a Hawaiian shirt to what we see him don each press conference. Do you think the way he is dressing now is in accordance with his true self or how he dressed before?

    His press conferences seem to have increasingly focus on the positive and downplayed the negative. He just doesn't come across as genuine in the majority of his public facing engagements. I think it is perhaps understandable, but it does give off a weird vibe and can rub people the wrong way.

    The positive thinking movement calls for one to have a singular goal that you are striving for and intensely focus on that AND that it can be achieved through thought. This point is key and I am not saying he is completely sold into this philosophy but it might explain some blind spots. Wilson has consistently said he wants to be the greatest player to have ever played, that is is a very clear goal. The problem with this positive thinking philosophy is it has a tendency for the person to begin relying more on their thoughts and less on their actions with the assumption that the thoughts are going to "magically" manifest the reality of the goal. Cray talk right? Some evidence of someone going down this path might be an erosion of once mastered skills, a lack of progression in problem areas as they spend less time in action, working on their craft, and more time visualizing their end goal.

    If you made it this far, congratulations.

    Again, I will repeat, this is wild speculation, but I enjoy philosophy what can I say? Some random thoughts this morning.
    Milehighhawk
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  • Tinamedina wrote:http://www.thepostgame.com/usc-carroll-chow-leinart-kiffin-sarkisian-2005


    Scroll down and be enlightened.

    the more i find out about pete carroll, the more i realize he is the problem.


    When I read that article it brings back memories, USC is my favorite College team, those USC days were incredible to experience as a fan and then when Pete came to Seattle I couldn’t believe how much my fortunes were about to change. The Pete bashing in that article has been proven to be overblown. Pete won a Super Bowl and has many Seattle coaches all over the NFL. Lane & Sark have their demons as we all do & are working through them. Norm moved on to solidify his retirement. Everything seems to be working out for everyone.

    The best GM in the NFL seems to be happy with Pete & the most proficient NFL organization is happy with Pete. I will say the article is a reminder that Pete is close to the Music & Hollywood Industry.
    FresnoHawk68
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  • TwistedHusky wrote:Speaking of 'investing in the old guy', isn't that what keeping Carroll and getting rid of Wilson would be?

    Wilson is actively pushing back against the Seahawk FO control, notably Carroll since he controls the FO.

    The team better take Wilson's side on this because Carroll's side is going to lead to a lot of losing and disappointment.

    But yes, Carroll is very very vigilant about making sure people beneath him toe the line. This again was something from as long ago as USC. Certainly followed him here.


    Kinda, yeah. Little bit different when the old guy is Pete Carroll and not Norm friggin' Chow, though.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Milehighhawk wrote:It is an interesting story, but as usual the title really overplays what went down here. Even Chow indicates that it was ultimately his choice to leave and he left to make more money in a more prestigious position. However, it doesn't mean that Pete took the correct approach here either.

    Pardon me while I wildly speculate for a moment how Pete's philosophy during his time at USC and currently with the Seahawks could be causing some unanticipated negative side-effects on the organization as a whole and on Wilson. I want to acknowledge there are extremely positive results that have come from Pete's approach, but in order to keep this shorter, I am going to focus on potential negatives.

    Carroll's Philosophy
    If anyone has ready Pete's book, Win Forever, you will undoubtedly come away with the understanding that Pete's philosophy is derived in large part from the positive thinking movement which interestingly has its roots in mid-19th century "healing" experiments. At its core, it is the belief that one can literally will positive outcomes if one simply puts all their energy into positive thoughts. More recent subject matter on this topic include the book titled The Secret (2006). On the surface it can sound crazy, it does have some actual benefits, but it also has some significant pitfalls. Namely, in-authenticity. If someone only focuses on the positive, they will, at worst, ignore problems, and at best, significantly downplay them, invariably stunting adaptation and problem solving.

    Potential Signs of Negative Impacts
      Pete's tendency to hold onto his coordinators longer than some think reasonable given their performance.
      The whole debacle over accountability for "the play" in LIX (maybe he just wanted to move past it?)
      Seeming avoidance of even acknowledging locker room challenges
      His apparent aggravation with press questions related to negative topics
      His seemingly overly positive outlook on every significant injury when predicting return dates

    Has this impacted Russel Wilson?
    Continuous positive thinking breeds in-authenticity and where might we observe this in Wilson?
    You know the term "dress for success"? Take a look at Wilson's wardrobe transformation from when he first boarded that plane with his teammates to Hawaii in docker pants and a Hawaiian shirt to what we see him don each press conference. Do you think the way he is dressing now is in accordance with his true self or how he dressed before?

    His press conferences seem to have increasingly focus on the positive and downplayed the negative. He just doesn't come across as genuine in the majority of his public facing engagements. I think it is perhaps understandable, but it does give off a weird vibe and can rub people the wrong way.

    The positive thinking movement calls for one to have a singular goal that you are striving for and intensely focus on that AND that it can be achieved through thought. This point is key and I am not saying he is completely sold into this philosophy but it might explain some blind spots. Wilson has consistently said he wants to be the greatest player to have ever played, that is is a very clear goal. The problem with this positive thinking philosophy is it has a tendency for the person to begin relying more on their thoughts and less on their actions with the assumption that the thoughts are going to "magically" manifest the reality of the goal. Cray talk right? Some evidence of someone going down this path might be an erosion of once mastered skills, a lack of progression in problem areas as they spend less time in action, working on their craft, and more time visualizing their end goal.

    If you made it this far, congratulations.

    Again, I will repeat, this is wild speculation, but I enjoy philosophy what can I say? Some random thoughts this morning.


    Well said Mikehigh! I would add this is a journey of self improvement that we can all experience together with Pete & the Hawks, the ups & downs, “Iron sharpens Iron”. I love Seahawk football & I’m going to enjoy every second of the Carroll/Schneider era can’t wait for the opening of the 2nd act after the 1st act was glorious proving the entire NFL fans base they were wrong with our Super Bowl win.
    FresnoHawk68
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:"Erased" my ass. Chow moved on to the NFL with a much higher salary, ran a crappy Titans offense, and never did jack diddly squat afterwards. He went to UCLA, ran one of the worst offenses in the entire nation. Went to Hawaii, lost like it was going out of style. Put on a CLINIC for those who want to learn how to lose.

    Why wouldn't you want to elevate your young talent and invest in it instead of the old guy who ended up trying several times afterwards and always failing to put together a successful offense? Kiffin and Sark have both had more success than Norm Chow has post-USC, despite Kiffin being a douche and Sark publicly descending into alcoholism.

    Seriously, go ahead. Look at everything Norm Chow did post-USC, and tell me which part of that indicates that he was this incredible, unmatchable offensive mind that Pete Carroll hated because he was good.


    Pete doesn’t hate anyone it’s against his core beliefs! USC was a tuff situation to manage with so much talent. Chow is an incredible offensive football mind but he needed $$$ & he got it. Chow never said he needed to win!
    FresnoHawk68
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  • FresnoHawk68 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:"Erased" my ass. Chow moved on to the NFL with a much higher salary, ran a crappy Titans offense, and never did jack diddly squat afterwards. He went to UCLA, ran one of the worst offenses in the entire nation. Went to Hawaii, lost like it was going out of style. Put on a CLINIC for those who want to learn how to lose.

    Why wouldn't you want to elevate your young talent and invest in it instead of the old guy who ended up trying several times afterwards and always failing to put together a successful offense? Kiffin and Sark have both had more success than Norm Chow has post-USC, despite Kiffin being a douche and Sark publicly descending into alcoholism.

    Seriously, go ahead. Look at everything Norm Chow did post-USC, and tell me which part of that indicates that he was this incredible, unmatchable offensive mind that Pete Carroll hated because he was good.


    Pete doesn’t hate anyone it’s against his core beliefs! USC was a tuff situation to manage with so much talent. Chow is an incredible offensive football mind but he needed $$$ & he got it. Chow never said he needed to win!


    I agree, but the general implication here is that Pete resents offensive success, and that he "erased" Chow because of it. It's dumb.

    Although I don't agree on Chow. I think he was wholly overrated.
    Maelstrom787
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  • Maelstrom787 wrote:
    FresnoHawk68 wrote:
    Maelstrom787 wrote:"Erased" my ass. Chow moved on to the NFL with a much higher salary, ran a crappy Titans offense, and never did jack diddly squat afterwards. He went to UCLA, ran one of the worst offenses in the entire nation. Went to Hawaii, lost like it was going out of style. Put on a CLINIC for those who want to learn how to lose.

    Why wouldn't you want to elevate your young talent and invest in it instead of the old guy who ended up trying several times afterwards and always failing to put together a successful offense? Kiffin and Sark have both had more success than Norm Chow has post-USC, despite Kiffin being a douche and Sark publicly descending into alcoholism.

    Seriously, go ahead. Look at everything Norm Chow did post-USC, and tell me which part of that indicates that he was this incredible, unmatchable offensive mind that Pete Carroll hated because he was good.


    Pete doesn’t hate anyone it’s against his core beliefs! USC was a tuff situation to manage with so much talent. Chow is an incredible offensive football mind but he needed $$$ & he got it. Chow never said he needed to win!


    I agree, but the general implication here is that Pete resents offensive success, and that he "erased" Chow because of it. It's dumb.

    Although I don't agree on Chow. I think he was wholly overrated.


    I’m biased I’m Chinese!
    FresnoHawk68
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  • Milehighhawk wrote:It is an interesting story, but as usual the title really overplays what went down here. Even Chow indicates that it was ultimately his choice to leave and he left to make more money in a more prestigious position. However, it doesn't mean that Pete took the correct approach here either.

    Pardon me while I wildly speculate for a moment how Pete's philosophy during his time at USC and currently with the Seahawks could be causing some unanticipated negative side-effects on the organization as a whole and on Wilson. I want to acknowledge there are extremely positive results that have come from Pete's approach, but in order to keep this shorter, I am going to focus on potential negatives.

    Carroll's Philosophy
    If anyone has ready Pete's book, Win Forever, you will undoubtedly come away with the understanding that Pete's philosophy is derived in large part from the positive thinking movement which interestingly has its roots in mid-19th century "healing" experiments. At its core, it is the belief that one can literally will positive outcomes if one simply puts all their energy into positive thoughts. More recent subject matter on this topic include the book titled The Secret (2006). On the surface it can sound crazy, it does have some actual benefits, but it also has some significant pitfalls. Namely, in-authenticity. If someone only focuses on the positive, they will, at worst, ignore problems, and at best, significantly downplay them, invariably stunting adaptation and problem solving.

    Potential Signs of Negative Impacts
      Pete's tendency to hold onto his coordinators longer than some think reasonable given their performance.
      The whole debacle over accountability for "the play" in LIX (maybe he just wanted to move past it?)
      Seeming avoidance of even acknowledging locker room challenges
      His apparent aggravation with press questions related to negative topics
      His seemingly overly positive outlook on every significant injury when predicting return dates

    Has this impacted Russel Wilson?
    Continuous positive thinking breeds in-authenticity and where might we observe this in Wilson?
    You know the term "dress for success"? Take a look at Wilson's wardrobe transformation from when he first boarded that plane with his teammates to Hawaii in docker pants and a Hawaiian shirt to what we see him don each press conference. Do you think the way he is dressing now is in accordance with his true self or how he dressed before?

    His press conferences seem to have increasingly focus on the positive and downplayed the negative. He just doesn't come across as genuine in the majority of his public facing engagements. I think it is perhaps understandable, but it does give off a weird vibe and can rub people the wrong way.

    The positive thinking movement calls for one to have a singular goal that you are striving for and intensely focus on that AND that it can be achieved through thought. This point is key and I am not saying he is completely sold into this philosophy but it might explain some blind spots. Wilson has consistently said he wants to be the greatest player to have ever played, that is is a very clear goal. The problem with this positive thinking philosophy is it has a tendency for the person to begin relying more on their thoughts and less on their actions with the assumption that the thoughts are going to "magically" manifest the reality of the goal. Cray talk right? Some evidence of someone going down this path might be an erosion of once mastered skills, a lack of progression in problem areas as they spend less time in action, working on their craft, and more time visualizing their end goal.

    If you made it this far, congratulations.

    Again, I will repeat, this is wild speculation, but I enjoy philosophy what can I say? Some random thoughts this morning.

    I don't think it's that wild of a speculative assumption. It's very clear that there was a complete shift in his public persona. Whether it was Russ finally being himself or Russ turning into something else, we'll never know. The one thing that is clear is that the turning point was his marriage. It appears that he sees himself as on the same level of the greats in sports, not just in his sport. It's turning into a cart before the horse scenario in real time. I would love to know if it was always within him or if this is the results of his people pumping him up over these last few years. None of it bothers me. It's kind of how things work in the sports world these days. I do find fascinating though.

    I will say that if this trend catches fire in the NFL and QBs start regularly hopping around often chasing the team that they think gives them what they want, it could damage the very thing that makes the NFL #1. It's the sole reason the NBA sucks.
    OrangeGravy
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  • USC hired Pete Carroll prior to the 2001 season to replace Paul (can’t) Hackett. Pete brought on Norm Chow as OC and gave him total control over the offense. USC went 6-5 in a rebuilding year and then lost to Utah in the Las Vegas Bowl after scoring only six points. Six. Points. Against Utah, when they were a Mountain West team. Ugh.

    During the offseason, Pete realized changes were needed, so he had Alex Gibbs come in as a consultant to move the offensive line to zone blocking (to improve the run game). Pete also implemented several passing concepts learned from Jon Gruden via the Kiffin connection in Tampa. Norm’s BYU offense was primarily scrapped, although Norm still called plays and had a huge role in game planning.

    The following three years saw USC go 10-2 with an Orange Bowl win over Iowa, followed by back-to-back AP national championships (the second of which coincided with a BCS championship). Both Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart won the Heisman. LenDale White and Reggie Bush became Thunder and Lightning. Pete’s D also was one of the best in the country. Everyone raved about Norm’s offense, to which he replied that it was Pete's offense.

    Following the 2004 season, Sark and Lane Kiffin started getting attention and opportunities to move on. Pete didn't want to lose either of his up-and-coming offensive guys, both of whom played a big part in planning and running the offense at that point. He had a decision to make: Promote them at Norm's expense, or keep Norm in his current role and lose one or both of the young guys. Keep in mind, both Kiff and Sark were also great recruiters. Norm, uh, wasn't.

    Norm wasn't thrilled. Can't blame him for that. Neither could Pete. Pete highly recommended Norm to Jeff Fisher when Norm interviewed as OC for the Titans. Norm got the job with Tennessee, Sark and Kiff got promoted, and USC proceeded to average about 50 points a game the following year.
    sc85sis
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  • It's an interesting story, and what does the media do with anything...make it interesting/ have more fire, etc.

    It's sad to see the old guard pushed around a bit like Chow was. He had a good thing, momentum, great talent at USC and that helped his rock-solid offensive philosophy blossom.

    I'm a big fan of Norm Chow the man, I grew up in Utah and watched a lot of college football there, and I got to meet Chow while working in Northern Utah. This was before he left BYU... and he was so incredibly sweet, laid back, and pleasant to talk to. I'm glad he got some NFL money to set up his family, financially... and we should keep in mind, after the Titans, taking those next few jobs came with much less talent than he had at USC and BYU. We've all seen coaches go to division one teams and struggle when they're not recruiting remotely the same talent as other PAC 10 (back then) schools.
    RockinHawks
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  • Interesting lose connections that Pete was on Monty Kiffen’s staff at NC State when they were fired. Chow was on Chuck Amato’s NC State staff ad was developing Philip Rivers when Pete hired him. Rivers success helped restore NC State as a football school and draw the interest of a young emerging QB recruit who hadn’t previously considered the school. Russell Wilson played three seasons and graduated from NC State before winding up in Pete’s lap. Add to that Chow being completely responsible for Sark’s development. I guess you can debate Norm Chow’s success since leaving USC but you cannot debate that Pete struggled to win championships with out him. Were it not for cheating he may not have competed at all.
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