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Can Russ succeed in the short/intermediate passing game?

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  • I'll provide a little precursor to this thread as everyone seems to be on either Carrolls/Russ's side... I want both to be here, and I think we need them both I don't have a 'side' in this debate. Right, thread...

    Having watched Russ throughout his career obviously his main strength is the deep ball and touch on the sideline passes. This needs a lot of play-action to buy some time, and when teams take away the deep ball the Seahawks O has struggled.

    Last year we didn't seem to have a short passing game at all, and the intermediate game was mostly the result of scramble drills. I can't be 100% sure but I think the reason for this is Schotty's playbook. There's other factors to this to, from O-line, Carroll pumping the breaks, Wilson ignoring short passes, etcetc.

    That said, Russ' has never been particularly good in the short passing game at any stage of his career - especially between the hashes. Arguably he was at his best in the short passing game when throwing to Lynch on heavy-set play action. His short throws are sometimes erratic and he almost always throws short passes waaaaaay too hard not giving the receiver a chance. Weirdly his bubble/screen/sideline short throws seem to come out too slow, allowing DBs to jump the route.

    I don't think it's a height issue (almost all QBs use throwing lanes) and I think we have more than enough weapons on O to have a good short/intermediate passing game.

    So, is Russ's skillset just not particularly suited for the short passing game? Is it purely on the play callers for not using these passes in the game plan? Or is it that we've never really utilised this aspect of the game and he'll be fine with more time/practice?
    hinton
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  • We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.
    Spin Doctor
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  • For the first few games in the 2019 season, he led the league in time to throw. Because that was the gameplan. The Steelers game was the quickest time to throw for a QB in a game at the time, because of the Steelers pass rush. He also took some hits.

    In 2016 he was injured, so his time to throw was also quick.

    Russ follows the gameplan. We’ve been saying this forever and if he gets traded, everyone will learn that as well
    Scorpion05
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.


    2015 and the start of 2020 had more intermediate passes and tempo, but not specifically of a much short-passing game.

    I hope Wilson can do it, but there's not much evidence of it at this stage in his career.
    hinton
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  • He will never be a Pocket thrower. He needs to escape to see. 2-deep safety eliminates his skill set. This is why we saw such a drastic change mid-season.
    RCATES
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  • RPO was created so exceptional talents like Wilson could excel without being 6'4 or taller. Lanes are specific for pocket guys. That's why taller QBs are preferred for that scheme. Mobile QBs with options can change and create new lanes in milliseconds, thanks in part to adding them as an additional threat to run. It spreads the D thinner. I thought our under usage of TE position last year was the deal breaker for our offense,
    Appyhawk
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  • maybe they should move the pocket a lot more... Russell is the best QB at throwing from the weak side (running laterally left)... so they should be able to move the pocket both left and right, and be effective... agree though that he needs to keep working on his shorter throws....

    another thing is, they need to dump the wr screens, and really work on getting effective running back screens in the area between the hash marks, or just outside... you know, traditional screen passes like they used to do to john l. williams...
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  • hinton wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.


    2015 and the start of 2020 had more intermediate passes and tempo, but not specifically of a much short-passing game.

    I hope Wilson can do it, but there's not much evidence of it at this stage in his career.
    And speaking of 2020, the times Wilson did use the short middle early on were most prevalent against man underneath coverages because then he feels safe using touch, knowing if he sees a trailer that there won’t be a LB or safety lurking outside his field of vision.

    Zone under is when his timing and touch is so poor. He can’t see if a defender is lurking outside his throwing lane and so he throws it either instantly (getting picked when MLB is only simulating pressure), or too late, and he knows he can’t see the danger so it’s a rocket.

    Anyone claiming he threw short middle in 2015 vs any type of zone coverage needs to point to the game. I saw a lot of quick hitting intermediate seam routes to TEs and slots (Baldwin). Time to throw being low doesn’t mean he was throwing short middle and it’s laughable someone would suggest that.
    hawk45
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  • Appyhawk wrote:RPO was created so exceptional talents like Wilson could excel without being 6'4 or taller. Lanes are specific for pocket guys. That's why taller QBs are preferred for that scheme. Mobile QBs with options can change and create new lanes in milliseconds, thanks in part to adding them as an additional threat to run. It spreads the D thinner. I thought our under usage of TE position last year was the deal breaker for our offense,


    Yeah, we were pretty stacked at TE and mostly ignored them in the receiving game. Frustrating, but I think a lot of that is because Russ' short passing game is sub-par. I know Olsen is a bit of a whipping boy on here for being washed up, but I don't think he and Russ ever built a chemistry.

    Not sure I'd agree lanes are specifically for pocket guys though. A-Rod is excellent at finding passing lanes and he moves around behind the LoS a lot, Mahomes too.
    hinton
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  • hawk45 wrote:
    hinton wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.


    2015 and the start of 2020 had more intermediate passes and tempo, but not specifically of a much short-passing game.

    I hope Wilson can do it, but there's not much evidence of it at this stage in his career.
    And speaking of 2020, the times Wilson did use the short middle early on were most prevalent against man underneath coverages because then he feels safe using touch, knowing if he sees a trailer that there won’t be a LB or safety lurking outside his field of vision.

    Zone under is when his timing and touch is so poor. He can’t see if a defender is lurking outside his throwing lane and so he throws it either instantly (getting picked when MLB is only simulating pressure), or too late, and he knows he can’t see the danger so it’s a rocket.

    Anyone claiming he threw short middle in 2015 vs any type of zone coverage needs to point to the game. I saw a lot of quick hitting intermediate seam routes to TEs and slots (Baldwin). Time to throw being low doesn’t mean he was throwing short middle and it’s laughable someone would suggest that.

    I agree let's see the tape on him throwing short over the middle ..Anytime I have seen it like the SB
    it's a interception or damn close.
    He can't see and also when he can-The arc of his pass is low to high from being short..This is the
    opposite of what you see from taller QB's like Brady and Erin-Their arc is from high to low so they
    thrive on quick short passes..A lane?They can stand right there in two steps and see what and
    where they need to put it..Bang!
    Russ on other hand he needs to step further back to see at 2-3 more steps so more time is wasted
    by this and the DL is likely bringing pressure as Russ tends to hold the ball too long and double
    clutching ect.He does not fire quick in short but he can anywhere else.
    I have my doubts he can succeed in that kind of game..He will have to change and I didn't see him
    change much over the years like I expected for the better..To me he's like fool's gold and sandlot
    covered a lot up but it isn't going to anymore.
    So blame the OL if this fails..I don't believe any OL anywhere can block for him..
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  • RCATES wrote:He will never be a Pocket thrower. He needs to escape to see. 2-deep safety eliminates his skill set. This is why we saw such a drastic change mid-season.

    BINGO!!! He's a short QB. Either escape or drop back 20 steps to see over the line. Doesn't matter where Wilson goes if he is traded, his height will always be a issue to be a true pocket passer.
    hawks85
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  • RCATES wrote:He will never be a Pocket thrower. He needs to escape to see. 2-deep safety eliminates his skill set. This is why we saw such a drastic change mid-season.


    THIS MAY BE THE WORST REPLY EVER!!!
    tersal
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  • Yes.

    I'm reading tons of excuses to why he doesnt and its a bunch of crap. He has executed a plethora of short passing completions on a regular basis. See dissly or Hollister on 5 yard curls, lockett and carson underneath. Ins outs, slants, flats etc over 9 years. Lots of dropped passes in there and the scheme doesnt call for enough of it. We need more drags more crossers more rb screens. Not wr screens.

    Rpo was created to make defenses think on their toes. Not specifically for 6'4 qbs. It's a result of zone blocking and how it traditionally leaves someone unblocked. That comment maybe the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

    Oh and someone said he takes to many 7 step drops. Really? Can you elaborate on the 7 step drop formation from mostly a shotgun and pistol base?

    Maybe we should start a thread where everyone posts what they do for a living. So we can come in this damn forum and scrutinize your ways. Like your not tall enough or your fat and dont make enough money
    Dam hands are to fat to type 40wpm and write quick emails. $h!t like that.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.



    Yeah and afte the giants game were 2 of the 3 Tos were off the hands of receivers in short routes over the middle all that went away.
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  • hawks85 wrote:
    RCATES wrote:He will never be a Pocket thrower. He needs to escape to see. 2-deep safety eliminates his skill set. This is why we saw such a drastic change mid-season.

    BINGO!!! He's a short QB. Either escape or drop back 20 steps to see over the line. Doesn't matter where Wilson goes if he is traded, his height will always be a issue to be a true pocket passer.



    LOl and yet he has shown he can do it.
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  • I don't buy the 'too short' narrative at all, most O-linemen ate 6'7+, you don't get many QBs that height. Whether your QB is 5'9 or 6'4 they're gonna be shorter than the line.

    Just because Russ has periodically thrown short passes it doesn't mean he can do it consistently. Throughout his career Russ has struggled in the short/intermediate passing game at times, as much as he's succeeded in it, if not more.

    I'm not saying he can't do it, hence the topic/question. But it seems to be a pretty big hole in his game that no-one is really talking about, instead the conversion seems to be about whether people wanna drive Russ or Pete outta town - which makes zero sense to me.
    hinton
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  • hinton wrote:I don't buy the 'too short' narrative at all, most O-linemen ate 6'7+, you don't get many QBs that height. Whether your QB is 5'9 or 6'4 they're gonna be shorter than the line.

    Just because Russ has periodically thrown short passes it doesn't mean he can do it consistently. Throughout his career Russ has struggled in the short/intermediate passing game at times, as much as he's succeeded in it, if not more.

    I'm not saying he can't do it, hence the topic/question. But it seems to be a pretty big hole in his game that no-one is really talking about, instead the conversion seems to be about whether people wanna drive Russ or Pete outta town - which makes zero sense to me.


    I would disagree again go back to the first 5 games, go back to 2015 it was not just a little, it was a lot. Btu as always PC who has said he does not like short passes especially over the middle, it all went away. in 2015 because Lynch came back, in 2020 because we had a few its some of which was off receivers hands in the short middle of the field. Of course there have been many other times when he threw short middle. Its not like there are Qbs out there and all they do is throw short middle. None of them do nothing but that even Brady. So its not a whole in his game at all. It's a calculated risk in his game of risk versus reward and what PC wants. What everyone needs to remember is since day ! PC has drilled into him protect the ball, that is always in the back of his head. SO he is over cautious most of the time. The middle of the filed especially short has a lot of opportunities for disaster no matter two tall you are, their is batted balls, going off the hands of the receivers, the receiver being hit and dropping it etc etc.
    So getting back to original no it is not a whole the fact show it is not. it is more a philosophy and risk versus reward.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:We've had it in 2015 and we had it at the start of the 2020 season... We've had a west coast offense style of attack for short burst, and in those times we had the most prolific Seattle offense. Wilson can do it, and has shown that he can.

    This is true. I find that most here look right past the shortest and what would seem to be the most obvious factor. Pete likes running the ball. The obvious part is why. It shortens the game. When a team throws the ball, incomplete passes and running ob on completed passes stop the clock. Running the ball runs a lot of time off the clock without playing. Pete's defense was getting tired early in games and giving up too many points and yards. That defense was dying. I believe that's exactly why we saw the light switch get turned off on the offense this year. Maybe it's something else. But reasons are usually more simple than one wants to believe.
    MD5eahawks
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  • hawks85 wrote:
    RCATES wrote:He will never be a Pocket thrower. He needs to escape to see. 2-deep safety eliminates his skill set. This is why we saw such a drastic change mid-season.

    BINGO!!! He's a short QB. Either escape or drop back 20 steps to see over the line. Doesn't matter where Wilson goes if he is traded, his height will always be a issue to be a true pocket passer.

    Im calling BS. One of the best pocket passers of all time is around 5’10. How do you explain the success of Drew Brees? He operated exclusively from the pocket and worked the short middle frequently? Brees frequently used three step drops and timing passes underneath the middle against all coverages. Are you hearing yourselves? Wilson has done it before.

    Now there are a few things that Payton and the FO did that led to the success of Brees. First off the Saints invested a lot of resources into their interior line. They consistently have strong guards and centers. With a shorter QB having a strong interior line that can create throwing lanes is vital. They also moved the pocket around quite frequently.

    Also consider this, the short timing passes have never been part of Seattle’s offense for an extended period of time. Those are the type of throws that take a full offseason of practicing and getting comfortable with your receivers. There is a reason why guys like Brady can do no look pass over the middle. The time of something like a quick slant over the middle is very different. It’s not that Wilson can’t do it, it’s that are coach doesn’t like these kind of plays

    Even with Matt Hasselbeck, a guy that thrived off of the quick short timing passes was shoe horned into the same type of offense in 2010. He was forced to throw deep bombs like Russ when that wasn’t what he excelled at.
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  • He's a long baller for a reason . because of his height , he can't see the short to middle routes from the pocket consistently . The pocket for him is like a prison cell . He needs out to see well and connect with receivers . But he is getting older and getting beat up and he knows it . Fatter and slower doesn't help a scrambling QB either . IMO
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  • hinton wrote:I don't buy the 'too short' narrative at all, most O-linemen ate 6'7+, you don't get many QBs that height. Whether your QB is 5'9 or 6'4 they're gonna be shorter than the line.

    There's some truth here (average NFL OL height is 6' 4.75") but it's also important to consider that maintaining a low center of gravity is critical to leverage. Pocic is 6'6" standing upright but if he is blocking Aaron Donald (6'1") then he will be much lower than that.

    It's also not a binary issue of whether QBs can see or not, but rather a question of how much they can see. Philip Rivers at 6'5" can see more of the field than Russ can. Of course release angle also matters a lot here for passer rating; Rivers is taller than Brady but he has a lower release point. Brady is the master of the short, easy pass in large part because of his very high release.

    Lastly, the rarity of successful NFL QBs under 6'2" does indicate an advantage to having that height as a minimum. Even including notable backups, Tyrod Taylor, Drew Brees and Russell Wilson were pretty much the only sub 6'2" QBs for the mid 2010's. Murray (5'10") and Mayfield (6'1") were successful last season, but neither one was a prolific pocket passer.
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  • RW is an accurate passer who throws a very catchable ball, and with better pass pro and enhanced play action he should be effective at short to intermediate passing. He has proven exception touch on edge routes, fades and jump balls. The increased effectiveness of the intermediate part of his game will change the looks he'll need to face and potentially make the whole O passing and running more effective. We need to see some creative scheme from the team's new OC.

    The whole too short thing is nonsense as Brees has proven as the all time passing leader, each of the other shorter QBs, Flutie, Tarkenton, Jurgenson, Jackson, and others find passing lanes with appropriate pass pro. This is an artificial barrier or preconception. Good is good.
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  • Yet again, nicely stated Jammer.

    He absolutely can do anything on the field. I believe what my eyes show me, and he has been and IS one of the best in the league, period. And is HOF bound, period.
    Yet, 9 years later, many flat out choose to act like he can't.
    The backlash and denial has ran it's course. Change the record...….
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