PC and sacks

John63 · Mar 8, 2021

So I posted this in another thread but thought it deserved its own

So lets look at PC sack rates in the NFL prior to Seattle

Jets 1 year 28 FYI top 5 in the league that year
NE year 1 30 FYI top 5 in the league that year
NE year 2 40 FYI top 5 in the league that year
Ne year 3 56 FYI top 5 in the league that year

Hmm a pattern the longer PC is coaching a team the more the sacks go up.

Now lets look at the avg over PCs whole NFL career

Prior to Seattle as illustrated above 154 in 4 years

Now Seattle

35 year 1 with Hass FYI top 5 in the league that year
50 year 2 with Tjack FYI top 5 in the league that year
394 in 9 years with Wilson
1 with Geno
1 with Boykin

So the total in Seattle is 481

481 form Seattle plus 154 prior to Seattle totals 635 in 13 year with an avg of 48 sacks a year

And FYI the most sacks in a season were given up in PCs 3rd year with NE 56

And fyi this is only regular season sacks

The fact is PC does not care about sacks or pass blocking, and he has always had QBs in the NFl with high sack numbers. Why because he wants chunk plays which mean long developing plays which means waiting to throw which means sacks. He has said many times he wants to run the ball and throw long, well that sets up a lot of sacks.

AgentDib · Mar 8, 2021

It really feels like you have been assigned one side in a debate and are trying to post as much stuff as possible, whether accurate or not, in the hopes that some of it is persuasive. If you take a minute to look at how somebody may disagree with your posts then it should be obvious where some of the holes are.

Just to start with your very first point, Pete Carroll had no personnel control with the Jets. He was the defensive coordinator and was promoted to Head Coach for one season. During that season, Boomer Esiason started 14 games and took 19 sacks - which was way better than average for the immobile QB who tended to hover around 30 sacks/year. The backup QB came in and played in two games quite poorly, being sacked 9 times and throwing 4 picks.

If we want to try to form a conclusion from that data point, the best one would be that Pete probably had little to do with how many sacks the QBs took either way. A slightly worse opinion would be that he helped Boomer avoid more sacks than normal. Another slightly worse opinion could be that he didn't prepare his backup QBs very well. However, a takeaway that he "did not care about sacks or pass blocking" is completely ridiculous.

John63 · Mar 8, 2021

AgentDib":1d4rizu0 said:
It really feels like you have been assigned one side in a debate and are trying to post as much stuff as possible, whether accurate or not, in the hopes that some of it is persuasive. If you take a minute to look at how somebody may disagree with your posts then it should be obvious where some of the holes are.

Just to start with your first very point, Pete Carroll had no personnel control with the Jets. He was the defensive coordinator and was promoted to Head Coach for one season. During that season, Boomer Esiason started 14 games and took 19 sacks - which was way better than average for the immobile QB who tended to hover around 30 sacks/year. The backup QB came in and played in two games quite poorly, being sacked 9 times and throwing 4 picks.

If we want to try to form a conclusion from that data point, the best one would be that Pete probably had little to do with how many sacks the QBs took either way. A slightly worse opinion would be that he helped Boomer avoid more sacks than normal. Another slightly worse opinion could be that he didn't prepare his backup QBs very well. However, a takeaway that he "did not care about sacks or pass blocking" is completely ridiculous.

When he comes.put and says he looks for road gardens and run blockers and says nothing about pass blocking and history of olinedrafting is run blockers who grade bad at pass blocking it tells u he does not value pass blocking. Fyi even if you remove the jets it does not change that PC qbs have a history of being sacked alot. Also.isnt it interacting that the 1 year he had no say in the offense they had decent sacks numbers. The reality is the system PC uses has a high sack rate.

AgentDib · Mar 8, 2021

Do you see the problem with your simplified analysis though? Knowing the details about a specific situation can completely change the conclusion. QB performance is just extremely important when it comes to sacks.

John63":1t3jdc47 said:
When he comes.put and says he looks for road gardens and run blockers and says nothing about pass blocking and history of olinedrafting is run blockers who grade bad at pass blocking it tells u he does not value pass blocking.

I've heard Pete say "We also have to protect Russ better" every single time Russ has a game with lots of sacks. He's also had volumes to say about needing to reduce sacks over the years. However, I don't think it's worth discussing "what Pete says" beyond that, because that is mostly just about putting words into his mouth and cherry picking what you want to over a full decade of press conferences now. I'm sure by now we could stitch together a clip of Pete quoting almost anything.

Pete's highest draft pick has been at left tackle, and they also brought in a top LT in Duane Brown. In between we had the converted TE Fant who was a better pass blocker than a run blocker. In my view, that is a good example that indicates the problem has been less that they don't care about pass blocking, and more that they've tried spend less on the OL as other salaries ballooned in order to fit a competitive team under the salary cap. Good pass blocking OL are extremely expensive, they tried to go cheap with Fant and it didn't work, and so they ended up trading for Brown.

We've also had our share of busts on the OL over the years; the "cable prototype" big super athletic OL can pass protect fine in theory but none of them really worked out. Britt and Ifedi were busts at RT precisely because they didn't pass block well enough. Ifedi played for dirt cheap last year and was a good run blocker, if we really didn't care about pass protection then we would have just re-signed him for much cheaper than Shell. So why didn't we?

IMO both of our tackles did a nice job with pass protection last season.

nwHawk · Mar 8, 2021

John63":1cz0q9tj said:
481 form Seattle plus 154 prior to Seattle totals 635 in 13 year with an avg of 48 sacks a year

And FYI the most sacks in a season were given up in PCs 3rd year with NE 56

And fyi this is only regular season sacks

Since you covered all of Pete's 15 seasons, 635 / 15 = 42.33
in Seattle, 481 / 11 seasons = 43.73

Let's talk about that New England QB. Drew Bledsoe had 55 in Pete's 3rd year. Then he had 45, 5 (injured and Brady took over), 54 (in Buffalo), 49 37, and 49 (in Dallas) etc... Your model of Pete's failure comes from comparing a guy with a history of taking sacks.

John63 · Mar 8, 2021

nwHawk":1vcb048x said:
John63":1vcb048x said:

481 form Seattle plus 154 prior to Seattle totals 635 in 13 year with an avg of 48 sacks a year

And FYI the most sacks in a season were given up in PCs 3rd year with NE 56

And fyi this is only regular season sacks

Click to expand...

Since you covered all of Pete's 15 seasons, 635 / 15 = 42.33
in Seattle, 481 / 11 seasons = 43.73

Let's talk about that New England QB. Drew Bledsoe had 55 in Pete's 3rd year. Then he had 45, 5 (injured and Brady took over), 54 (in Buffalo), 49 37, and 49 (in Dallas) etc... Your model of Pete's failure comes from comparing a guy with a history of taking sacks.

Ahh so in your mind PC and his system has no play in the fact that every QB that has played in took a lot of sacks.Got it. Amazing if I used that Logic about Wilson I would be told it's an excuse.

So lets start with NE do the QB was Bedsore for all 3 years and yet as I pointed out his sacks went up every year under PC and you want to try to blow it off. Did it occur getting hit and sacked so much under PC gave him happy feet and that basically PC ruined him.

the fact is very simple every QB under PC has had a lot of sacks every one. that called a pattern. Since you want to play that game Bledsoe before PC (15 or more games played only) avg 25 sacks a season. After PC 37 a season.

Again every QB under PC has taken a lot of sacks that is called a pattern.

getnasty · Mar 8, 2021

Before Pete-10 playoff appearances in 34 years
With Pete- 9 playoff appearances in 11 years

nwHawk · Mar 8, 2021

Agreed Nasty.

9 of 11 playoffs, 2 super bowl appearances and 1 Lombardi trophy. And that's after taking over a team that was a crap heap.

John63 · Mar 8, 2021

getnasty":1tgl461x said:
Before Pete-10 playoff appearances in 34 years
With Pete- 9 playoff appearances in 11 years

Great but has nothing to do with sacks

John63 · Mar 8, 2021

nwHawk":bbhzzl3z said:
Agreed Nasty.

9 of 11 playoffs, 2 super bowl appearances and 1 Lombardi trophy. And that's after taking over a team that was a crap heap.

again great but remind me what that has to do with sacks. while we are at it 9 winning seasons out of 11 with PC 9 out of 9 with Wilson last I checked 100% is better than 81%. How many winning seasons with PC and no Wilson 0

nwHawk · Mar 8, 2021

So, you firmly believe that Pete is causing Russell`s high sack numbers?

Russ had 48 last season. The Colts, Packers and Steelers gave up 56 COMBINED. All 3 teams had expieranced QBs. Russ has enough experience to not use "Pete" as an excuse. Good QBs make their lines look better than they might otherwise look.

I'm curious what you think Russ's sack numbers would look like under the Bears or 49ers? Or any other team.

Ad Hawk · Mar 8, 2021

Pete's career in Seattle has almost entirely been with RW. To argue the wins are Russ's credit, but the sacks are Pete's fault is a strange, and inconsistent argument, with zero nuance.

Spin Doctor · Mar 8, 2021

AgentDib":3t2t8sdg said:
Do you see the problem with your simplified analysis though? Knowing the details about a specific situation can completely change the conclusion. QB performance is just extremely important when it comes to sacks.

John63":3t2t8sdg said:

When he comes.put and says he looks for road gardens and run blockers and says nothing about pass blocking and history of olinedrafting is run blockers who grade bad at pass blocking it tells u he does not value pass blocking.

Click to expand...

I've heard Pete say "We also have to protect Russ better" every single time Russ has a game with lots of sacks. He's also had volumes to say about needing to reduce sacks over the years. However, I don't think it's worth discussing "what Pete says" beyond that, because that is mostly just about putting words into his mouth and cherry picking what you want to over a full decade of press conferences now. I'm sure by now we could stitch together a clip of Pete quoting almost anything.

Pete's highest draft pick has been at left tackle, and they also brought in a top LT in Duane Brown. In between we had the converted TE Fant who was a better pass blocker than a run blocker. In my view, that is a good example that indicates the problem has been less that they don't care about pass blocking, and more that they've tried spend less on the OL as other salaries ballooned in order to fit a competitive team under the salary cap. Good pass blocking OL are extremely expensive, they tried to go cheap with Fant and it didn't work, and so they ended up trading for Brown.

We've also had our share of busts on the OL over the years; the "cable prototype" big super athletic OL can pass protect fine in theory but none of them really worked out. Britt and Ifedi were busts at RT precisely because they didn't pass block well enough. Ifedi played for dirt cheap last year and was a good run blocker, if we really didn't care about pass protection then we would have just re-signed him for much cheaper than Shell. So why didn't we?

IMO both of our tackles did a nice job with pass protection last season.

I think we also need to look at Pete Carroll's priority on the offensive line. He really likes versatile lineman that can play any position and he values guys that excel at run blocking. Pass blocking seems to be a secondary concern to Carroll. He also likes to go with second tier free agents to fill in spots on the line. Since the departure of Cable we've just been a revolving door of vets. Our current coach, Solari has done a fantastic job of with what little he has gotten to work with.

That being said I'm very disappointed though over his quantity over quality approach. For what we spent on Finney, Shell, Iupati, Warmack and Ogbuehi we could have gotten a true blue chip offensive lineman in Jack Conklin. Hell, we could have signed both Jack Conklin and Glasgow. Imagine a line consisting of Brown, Glasgow, Procic, Lewis and Conklin? We'd have a pretty solid lineup there, with two blue chip players that would be anchors for the line to come in Glasgow and Conklin. It also aligns with Carroll's want to establish a running game and work off of play action.

Palmegranite · Mar 9, 2021

If your QB is being sacked at a high rate year in, year out, it's on the head coach. The buck stops with Pete Carroll.
It's glaringly obvious to every fan, and our mild mannered QB is complaining about it so yes, PC needs to remedy the problem in the off season.

By the way, I've watched the press conferences since RW came to Seattle. The local press are not doing their job. This should be the first and repeated question to Carroll after every game. "Why can't you and your coaching staff solve the high sack rate?"

Palmegranite · Mar 9, 2021

And by comparison:
2012-2020: Tom Brady: 244
2012-2020: Russell Wilson 394

Fix it Pete.

Tusc2000 · Mar 9, 2021

Palmegranite":3er9ht51 said:
If your QB is being sacked at a high rate year in, year out, it's on the head coach. The buck stops with Pete Carroll.
It's glaringly obvious to every fan, and our mild mannered QB is complaining about it so yes, PC needs to remedy the problem in the off season.

By the way, I've watched the press conferences since RW came to Seattle. The local press are not doing their job. This should be the first and repeated question to Carroll after every game. "Why can't you and your coaching staff solve the high sack rate?"

They've tried to fix the O-line through the draft. They failed. The only solid lineman we've had in the past 5 years has been Brown, who came via trade. The drafting has been very sub-par for years. Pestering Pete in press conferences solves nothing, he's very glib. Having a better college scouting organization is necessary going forward..

nwHawk · Mar 9, 2021

Pressure Brady and he will consistently hit the hot route, and dink and dunk you to death. Like Manning, his management of the game is just different than Wilson. Brady makes his offensive line better, as did Manning. As Wilson ages, he can’t escape in his old Houdini fashion, and teams know it.

getnasty · Mar 9, 2021

John63":eh6zvxyk said:
nwHawk":eh6zvxyk said:

Agreed Nasty.

9 of 11 playoffs, 2 super bowl appearances and 1 Lombardi trophy. And that's after taking over a team that was a crap heap.

Click to expand...

again great but remind me what that has to do with sacks. while we are at it 9 winning seasons out of 11 with PC 9 out of 9 with Wilson last I checked 100% is better than 81%. How many winning seasons with PC and no Wilson 0

Once again Russell responsible for all of the good but none of the bad.

nwHawk · Mar 9, 2021

Before Shell rolled his ankle and I have added him. He was a very solid signing that fans under estimate. Lewis was a rookie and played better than expected and he has a chance to an elite player down the line. Tough, strong and smart. Pocic has been disappointing, but injuries have played a part of that issue. LG has been a big disappointment.

One thing that is hard to really judge is that Pete originally hired Alex Gibbs to coach the line, and he had to retire. Cable took over. The NFL changed the chop blocking rules (March 2016) and Seattle’s system advantage was gone. Smaller sparky guys were getting rag dolled. They had to replace scheme, personnel, scouting habits, and ultimately coaches. That takes time. I’m looking forward to next season and the next step in solidifying the line.

xray · Mar 9, 2021

I wonder what Wilson's sack total would be if he would of learned to ' throw the ball away '. Sacks always mean loss of down and usually loss of yards . Throwing the ball away or out of bounds when necessary results in loss of down only . All good QB's should know when and how to use this tactic. It's part of the game . IMO

PC and sacks

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