New age passing game vs. old school smash mouth running game

Was just surfing around and caught a video with Mack Strong - I'll video link it at the end of this post. Pretty sweet some of those old runs with him blocking for 37.

Got me to thinking about lots of people calling Pete wanting to run more 'dinosaur' and out of touch. I'm asking people who are smarter than myself - both X and O's and strategy:

In a copycat league, once everyone has committed to the fancy passing game(s) and strategies on offense - what's wrong with being contrarian, and running an absolutely smash-mouth running based offense. I'm talking big ass fullback, I formations, power I formations - putting some beef behind the QB an committing to the run game - 3 guys behind the QB at times. Seems to me it would be something that defenses aren't setup to defend in the modern era. Everything I've kind of read about relying on a smash mouth running game - is that it really does setup play action more effectively than heaving it down the field on pass plays every play.

I keep hearing things about - and I think it was the Bucs (or the Chiefs), but I could be wrong - how they are 'blending' the running game in to the passing game with their tight end sets as run blockers/passing targets. Teams apparently can't tell whether it's a 'running' play or a 'passing' play based on reading the offensive play/setup. That's great - except tight ends aren't fullbacks. Ask Mack Strong and Jimmy Graham. If the tight ends can't block and the run game is just fluff - what are you actually setting up for play action? Or maybe you aren't - and you don't care?

Dunno - I'd like to see some old school: "We're gonna run the f*cking ball right the f*ck at you - we're going to run the f*uck right over you - TRY and stop us." Then once you totally commit to the run on defense, we're going to burn you with some deep play action. And we don't need a megatron or a DK to do that - OR a franchise quarterback for that matter - just a functional one. Jesus - imagine Lynch running behind Mack!?

Offseason/Saturday ruminations But, I'd appreciate some comments about if or why I'm delusional.

:0190l:

And here's the video:

[youtube]PK-VYdARoaM[/youtube]

Eventually, a course correction will happen when defenders get lighter and faster where some visionary will dominate the league for a season or two running the ol' Tubby Raymond Wing-T.

Thing is, it doesn't really work in today's NFL, for the most part. That sort of offense is akin to Pete's old cover-3 - it's simple and to run it successfully, it requires superior talent. Bringing so many people in also brings more defenders into the box, and defenders have gotten absolutely freakish. Unless you have an amazing offensive line (in a league where offensive line talent is not keeping up with defensive front-7 talent) and an especially talented back, this sort of thing is just going to result in having to pass more often to keep drives alive anyway.

This is why a balanced attack that disguises itself by running different concepts out of similar works is successful these days - it's adaptable, clever, nearly impossible to defend perfectly, and will keep the chains moving better than an archaic smashmouth attack.

Of course, this all goes out the window if you have a Lamar Jackson type at quarterback. In that case, go heavy run and run tons of option stuff. Some guys are just freaks, and he's one of them.

Maelstrom787":16rvdtf9 said:

Eventually, a course correction will happen when defenders get lighter and faster where some visionary will dominate the league for a season or two running the ol' Tubby Raymond Wing-T.

Thing is, it doesn't really work in today's NFL, for the most part. That sort of offense is akin to Pete's old cover-3 - it's simple and to run it successfully, it requires superior talent. Bringing so many people in also brings more defenders into the box, and defenders have gotten absolutely freakish. Unless you have an amazing offensive line (in a league where offensive line talent is not keeping up with defensive front-7 talent) and an especially talented back, this sort of thing is just going to result in having to pass more often to keep drives alive anyway.

This is why a balanced attack that disguises itself by running different concepts out of similar works is successful these days - it's adaptable, clever, nearly impossible to defend perfectly, and will keep the chains moving better than an archaic smashmouth attack.

Of course, this all goes out the window if you have a Lamar Jackson type at quarterback. In that case, go heavy run and run tons of option stuff. Some guys are just freaks, and he's one of them.

Click to expand...

How many championships has Lamar win so far? ZERO. The run run run wcan work in the regular season but not int the playoffs unless you also have a top defense that can deal with all the 3 and outs, and a QB who can make magic in the end.

John63":2wncye7n said:

Maelstrom787":2wncye7n said:

Eventually, a course correction will happen when defenders get lighter and faster where some visionary will dominate the league for a season or two running the ol' Tubby Raymond Wing-T.

Thing is, it doesn't really work in today's NFL, for the most part. That sort of offense is akin to Pete's old cover-3 - it's simple and to run it successfully, it requires superior talent. Bringing so many people in also brings more defenders into the box, and defenders have gotten absolutely freakish. Unless you have an amazing offensive line (in a league where offensive line talent is not keeping up with defensive front-7 talent) and an especially talented back, this sort of thing is just going to result in having to pass more often to keep drives alive anyway.

This is why a balanced attack that disguises itself by running different concepts out of similar works is successful these days - it's adaptable, clever, nearly impossible to defend perfectly, and will keep the chains moving better than an archaic smashmouth attack.

Of course, this all goes out the window if you have a Lamar Jackson type at quarterback. In that case, go heavy run and run tons of option stuff. Some guys are just freaks, and he's one of them.

Click to expand...

How many championships has Lamar win so far? ZERO. The run run run wcan work in the regular season but not int the playoffs unless you also have a top defense that can deal with all the 3 and outs, and a QB who can make magic in the end.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Lamar is a championship quarterback, though. Just that a heavy-run offense is better suited to that type of quarterback.

Weird reply, John. Try not to derail this one, for the love of god. Go to another thread if you want to derail it.

I think what people are calling 'modern' is just 'popular'. SF has been using Juszcyflm3dk to great effect in the running game and people call Shanahan a genius. There are tons of teams using 220-230# DEs which would have to sit against a team with a pound the rock type offense.

So smash mouth has a place, but the league has also been making the rules to favor the passing game. Also, it has been taking strides to take the physicality out of the game to make it 'safer'. My guess is that the owners will continue to favor low-contact, passing offenses until ratings slip due to star QBs start breaking because they drop back 50 times a game or the game turns into arena football where the last team to have the ball wins.

As has been said SF has a creative running game which I believe links up with a short fast passing game. Jimmy G is not really a deep ball passer. Just a thought how cool would it be to add RW’s deep ball accuracy to the foregoing?

The new OC could make this happen with creativity and instead of 3 and cloud of dust and beaten up hard running RBs, there could be more stretch runs, screens, quick fast passing to WRs and RBs with RW unloading those chunk plays when D’s open up.

I still would not be unhappy to see old fashioned smash mouth just want more creativity.

What’s wrong with it???

Easy, your franchise QB, does not want to play like that!

What’s wrong with that again???

Carroll’s personnel doesn’t work with this system anymore!

In layman’s terms...

I remember days of ol when Marshawn Lynch was run over the league. But Marshawn was a beast of a runner. Now without a beast of a running back, we struggle with our offense. Maybe its time to re-examine our running game, RW would benefit from having a extra back (like a FB) to help with pass blocking duties. Most times when you have a fullback on the field it screams out "RUN" but you have him for pass blocking duties, which is a win, win situation.

What we need is a great pass blocker like Emmit Smith or the late Walter Payton. I'm sure Russ would love this idea and it would help in some passing situations.

Cheers

Teams run into trouble when they become married to an offensive identity. We saw this in 2007 with Holmgren. Once Holmgren stopped trying to force the run, we adapted to what our team was good at and turned our season around letting Hass sling it. I really don't think that the overall approach matters. Teams should do whatever gives their team the best chance to win. If that means running the ball or passing more, then do whatever it takes.

One thing people ignore is how the league values various positions. If the league is undervaluing mauling lineman or power runners, it might be advantageous to build a team around that philosophy. The Ravens and Titans are the perfect example of this. They built their teams around players whose skillsets were undervalued by the rest of the NFL. Now, you could argue they haven't won anything or whatever, but they have built wildly successful teams that don't rely on a top 5 QB to be successful.

Just give me the mid 70's Buffalo bills O-Line, the 99-00 Ravens D, Mike Alstott and I'll make Pete's system work.

It took Ray Rhodes to rattle Holmgren to change, Holmgren later came out and said he gets into a routine and grind and calls the same plays in situations.

Ray Rhodes had the balls and the trust of Holmgren, even if he didn't like what he heard.

Who on this staff can approach Pete that same way and not back down when he is in talk to the hand mentality.

That is the problem.

Even his sons would never do that, you don't rub glass in a wound of your parent.

Maelstrom787":107p04qi said:

John63":107p04qi said:

Maelstrom787":107p04qi said:

Eventually, a course correction will happen when defenders get lighter and faster where some visionary will dominate the league for a season or two running the ol' Tubby Raymond Wing-T.

Thing is, it doesn't really work in today's NFL, for the most part. That sort of offense is akin to Pete's old cover-3 - it's simple and to run it successfully, it requires superior talent. Bringing so many people in also brings more defenders into the box, and defenders have gotten absolutely freakish. Unless you have an amazing offensive line (in a league where offensive line talent is not keeping up with defensive front-7 talent) and an especially talented back, this sort of thing is just going to result in having to pass more often to keep drives alive anyway.

This is why a balanced attack that disguises itself by running different concepts out of similar works is successful these days - it's adaptable, clever, nearly impossible to defend perfectly, and will keep the chains moving better than an archaic smashmouth attack.

Of course, this all goes out the window if you have a Lamar Jackson type at quarterback. In that case, go heavy run and run tons of option stuff. Some guys are just freaks, and he's one of them.

Click to expand...

How many championships has Lamar win so far? ZERO. The run run run wcan work in the regular season but not int the playoffs unless you also have a top defense that can deal with all the 3 and outs, and a QB who can make magic in the end.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Lamar is a championship quarterback, though. Just that a heavy-run offense is better suited to that type of quarterback.

Weird reply, John. Try not to derail this one, for the love of god. Go to another thread if you want to derail it.

Click to expand...

Not a weird at all my point is the offensive scheme you are taking about wins SB once every 10+ years. With a lot fo dead years in between. For example lets look at our Sb season Yes great defense, great run game but your QB made
up over 25% of that great run game. The 2nd SB run Your QB mad e up over 30% of your rushing totals. and 0ver 30% of your rushing tds. Not just any Qb can do that, then add in all the 4th qtr/ot comebacks wins that an avg Qb cant do. SO I just don't agree that the smash mouth FB can win anymore in the NFL if the goal is the SB. and the facts show it can't. Now do you need a run game oh hell yeah, but it can't be the focal point of your offense but instead a part of. Also as it relates to WR yes you would still need some big time WRs, without them you can cover them 1 on 1 and commit the rest to the run. You would need a Wr that cant be covered 1 on 1 and those don't grow on trees. OR you need to scheme them open somethign we dont do.

hawks85":3oublyse said:

Just give me the mid 70's Buffalo bills O-Line, the 99-00 Ravens D, Mike Alstott and I'll make Pete's system work.

Click to expand...

LOl yeah thsou sould be easy to find. LOL

John63":1admbtb2 said:

Maelstrom787":1admbtb2 said:

John63":1admbtb2 said:

Maelstrom787":1admbtb2 said:

Eventually, a course correction will happen when defenders get lighter and faster where some visionary will dominate the league for a season or two running the ol' Tubby Raymond Wing-T.

Thing is, it doesn't really work in today's NFL, for the most part. That sort of offense is akin to Pete's old cover-3 - it's simple and to run it successfully, it requires superior talent. Bringing so many people in also brings more defenders into the box, and defenders have gotten absolutely freakish. Unless you have an amazing offensive line (in a league where offensive line talent is not keeping up with defensive front-7 talent) and an especially talented back, this sort of thing is just going to result in having to pass more often to keep drives alive anyway.

This is why a balanced attack that disguises itself by running different concepts out of similar works is successful these days - it's adaptable, clever, nearly impossible to defend perfectly, and will keep the chains moving better than an archaic smashmouth attack.

Of course, this all goes out the window if you have a Lamar Jackson type at quarterback. In that case, go heavy run and run tons of option stuff. Some guys are just freaks, and he's one of them.

Click to expand...

How many championships has Lamar win so far? ZERO. The run run run wcan work in the regular season but not int the playoffs unless you also have a top defense that can deal with all the 3 and outs, and a QB who can make magic in the end.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Lamar is a championship quarterback, though. Just that a heavy-run offense is better suited to that type of quarterback.

Weird reply, John. Try not to derail this one, for the love of god. Go to another thread if you want to derail it.

Click to expand...

Not a weird at all my point is the offensive scheme you are taking about wins SB once every 10+ years. With a lot fo dead years in between. For example lets look at our Sb season Yes great defense, great run game but your QB made
up over 25% of that great run game. The 2nd SB run Your QB mad e up over 30% of your rushing totals. and 0ver 30% of your rushing tds. Not just any Qb can do that, then add in all the 4th qtr/ot comebacks wins that an avg Qb cant do. SO I just don't agree that the smash mouth FB can win anymore in the NFL if the goal is the SB. and the facts show it can't. Now do you need a run game oh hell yeah, but it can't be the focal point of your offense but instead a part of. Also as it relates to WR yes you would still need some big time WRs, without them you can cover them 1 on 1 and commit the rest to the run. You would need a Wr that cant be covered 1 on 1 and those don't grow on trees. OR you need to scheme them open somethign we dont do.

Click to expand...

I am not saying that it is objectively the best type of offense, John. That's what makes your reply weird. You're arguing against something I never said. Please read closer next time.

If you want to go into the x's and o's of why smashmouth football doesn't generally work anymore, like I ACTUALLY did in my post, by all means. Otherwise, you're continuing to derail by beating on strawmen that you put up yourself.

Maelstrom787":2qohaj12 said:

John63":2qohaj12 said:

Maelstrom787":2qohaj12 said:

John63":2qohaj12 said:

How many championships has Lamar win so far? ZERO. The run run run wcan work in the regular season but not int the playoffs unless you also have a top defense that can deal with all the 3 and outs, and a QB who can make magic in the end.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Lamar is a championship quarterback, though. Just that a heavy-run offense is better suited to that type of quarterback.

Weird reply, John. Try not to derail this one, for the love of god. Go to another thread if you want to derail it.

Click to expand...

Not a weird at all my point is the offensive scheme you are taking about wins SB once every 10+ years. With a lot fo dead years in between. For example lets look at our Sb season Yes great defense, great run game but your QB made
up over 25% of that great run game. The 2nd SB run Your QB mad e up over 30% of your rushing totals. and 0ver 30% of your rushing tds. Not just any Qb can do that, then add in all the 4th qtr/ot comebacks wins that an avg Qb cant do. SO I just don't agree that the smash mouth FB can win anymore in the NFL if the goal is the SB. and the facts show it can't. Now do you need a run game oh hell yeah, but it can't be the focal point of your offense but instead a part of. Also as it relates to WR yes you would still need some big time WRs, without them you can cover them 1 on 1 and commit the rest to the run. You would need a Wr that cant be covered 1 on 1 and those don't grow on trees. OR you need to scheme them open somethign we dont do.

Click to expand...

I am not saying that it is objectively the best type of offense, John. That's what makes your reply weird. You're arguing against something I never said. Please read closer next time.

If you want to go into the x's and o's of why smashmouth football doesn't generally work anymore, like I ACTUALLY did in my post, by all means. Otherwise, you're continuing to derail by beating on strawmen that you put up yourself.

Click to expand...

YEah sorry I misread what you said!!

I am no Xs and Os guy by any means. However the league has determined that you can't touch the QB and if they can't touch a player...that is who you give it to.

That being said, more interceptions happen by the QB than the RB fumbles. That is why the ground game dominated until the newer QB rules came around.

I would love to see a 3 year commitment to building a strong run game. An elite OL, plus fast and enormous RBs is not impossible at all.

They are supposedly tweaking QB contact rules and making them reviewable, yes more delays in the game, but for us with Wilson, he gets many hits late, by facemask that never have a flag thrown, while others get one if you fart within three feet. Also the follow thru tackle attempt we had several calls on just after the release of a pass. If it was an momentum and he didn't pancake but rolled to the side it may not be called anymore either.

There are many reasons a great run game is a fantastic way to win games considering defenses are getting lighter and more spread out to stop the pass.

And it is less tiring and easier on OL to run block than pass block. Run blockers are also cheaper.

So great plan, but a plan without the ability to execute is just a wish.

Our strengths are not in the above at all. Choosing to build in a way that does not use our strength is foolish and counterproductive.

The issue is not the strategy, the issue is the strategy does not fit the roster.

And we know from the Titans that if your defense is average or below average, running the ball as the primary engine for your sustained drives will put you in a hole. Other teams can come back quickly on you, you cannot recover quickly. Bad calls can decimate you whereas a bad call for a passing team is easily overcome.

One holding call can end your drive as a rush first team. Meanwhile a pass first team can turn 2nd and 30 into a first down with just a cheap holding penalty on the defense.

In the current NFL, you want to be run first then you need a very good defense. But paying for a great QB means you lose defensive depth and productivity. Even then, volume passing teams have the advantage of rules that slant the game in favor of passing offenses.

Right now, there is no way to win in the playoffs against the better teams without a great passing attack.

Old school smash mouth football will win you 9-10 games maybe, but you will never win more than a wildcard in the playoffs in today's NFL with today's rules unless you have an above-average defense, especially secondary. We don't.

Go look at the Titans for a best case example of what you get and why it will not work.