Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Pete and John not altering team building philosophy

The Original Seattle Seahawks Fan Forum Community. There simply is NO substitute for Seahawks Talk, News, Rumors, Trades, and Analytics. LANGUAGE: PG-13

  • This is what good organizations do. I know that's disappointing from some in our fan base, but you really do want your organization to stay true to its philosophy.
    knownone
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2781
    Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:10 am


  • I would like a team that has the flexibility to alter the strategy when it calls for it. thats what good front offices do.

    What they do is stubborn to a fault and it costs you.
    misfit
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 535
    Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:40 pm


  • At close to 70, I'd venture to say PC is not changing and JS does what he's told . Anybody see new philosophy ?
    xray
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4540
    Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:29 am
    Location: AZ


  • Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.
    Own The West
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 514
    Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:20 pm


  • A plan without the ability to execute is really just a wish.

    The best coaches adjust their plan to their personnel.

    Or barring that, at least attempt to work to assure the roster to built according to the plan.
    TwistedHusky
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4917
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:48 pm


  • Own The West wrote:
    Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.
    FattyKnuckle
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 115
    Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:05 pm


  • This isn't news, it's a columnists opinion. The Seahawks FO has changed facets of its team-building approach several times.
    Maelstrom787
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4760
    Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:38 pm
    Location: Delaware


  • Maelstrom787 wrote:This isn't news, it's a columnists opinion. The Seahawks FO has changed facets of its team-building approach several times.


    But have those changes been successful?

    I'd say with our continued flame outs in the first or second rounds of the playoffs for the past 7-8 years, the answer is no.

    Pete and John have done a TREMENDOUS job of creating a player friendly culture of winning, competition and accountability. But they have failed to evolve their styles and draft/player acquisition philosophies into anything that resembles an identity or new foundation on how they're getting back to a Super Bowl.

    What's our identity? What's the evolution of this team? What exactly is our draft and player acquisition philosophy? Because for the life of me I can't answer any of these questions.
    Sgt. Largent
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 18680
    Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 am


  • The team building philosophy is to bring in as many competitor for positions as the team can and then allow a fair competition to occur. The team consistently is a team that isn't cheap in FA but wants to find value instead of glamour. Some here want the splashy early signings yet always kvetch about the cap cost, the player's age, or their view of the player's perceived value to them. The team has the burden of top 3 QBs contract which limits their cap availability for big FA deals, yet consistently the team fields a competitive team despite shortage of cap and draft late annually. Whenever they do a big deal it is almost always panned as a mistake. Seems to me to be speaking from both sides of the complainers mouths.

    Last year the team went 12-4 in the regular season and again was bounced out in the first round of the playoffs. It was clear that the pass protection wasn't up to snuff, RW didn't have a strong game, the running game had become predictable and rather easily defensible and the the D needed to be strong against the short pass and on 3rd down. Changes were made with the OC and it appears the interior OLine is being reworked, change appears to be happening with throning game. The big trade last year has handcuffed the team in this draft but JS is good at moving around and will need to be smart and careful this year. The team so far is following their usual careful script. What alterations do you see as sensible???

    it's very early yet today being the 2nd day of actual free agency instead of the legal tampering period. Putting a team together is a marathon and often isn't finished until after the regular season begins and even then it is clear the team explores any option they can avail themselves of sensibly. I think some here are simply too impatient and need to chill out and see what is done. So far none the signings cause me concern and will improve the team.

    Patience is needed as the team is unable to be big spenders with the cap decrease this year the draft is also complicated with no combine so the scouting is going to be very important.
    jammerhawk
    * NET Moderator *
     
    Posts: 7693
    Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:13 pm


  • FattyKnuckle wrote:
    Own The West wrote:
    Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Yeah and lets remember his NFL success did not come till after he got Wilson. Before Wilson sub 500 after Wilson well over 600.
    John63
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4307
    Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:56 pm


  • jammerhawk wrote:The team building philosophy is to bring in as many competitor for positions as the team can and then allow a fair competition to occur. The team consistently is a team that isn't cheap in FA but wants to find value instead of glamour. Some here want the splashy early signings yet always kvetch about the cap cost, the player's age, or their view of the player's perceived value to them. The team has the burden of top 3 QBs contract which limits their cap availability for big FA deals, yet consistently the team fields a competitive team despite shortage of cap and draft late annually. Whenever they do a big deal it is almost always panned as a mistake. Seems to me to be speaking from both sides of the complainers mouths.


    The team philosophy USED to be competition at every position, but the problem is the competition is far inferior at those positions resulting in being forced to trade away valuable draft capital to supplement those positions of failure.

    Brown, Adams, Finney, Shell, Diggs, Clowney, Olsen, Dunlap, etc..........all trades that had to be done because Pete and John's drafting and development of those positions didn't work.

    Why we're down to three picks in this years draft. Desperation. Gone are the days of adding talent like Avril, Harvin, Bennett, etc to put us over the top. Now we're forced to trade just to not go 8-8.
    Sgt. Largent
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 18680
    Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 am


  • It’s okay, one day, when I own the Seahawks, I’ll run it based on the current trends in the NFL.

    I’m only a few billion dollars short....any one here interested in a joint ownership???

    I have $20 on my share....I swear that’s all I have! Take it or leave it!

    Lmao!
    TheLegendOfBoom
    Silver Supporter
    Silver Supporter
     
    Posts: 1870
    Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:12 pm
    Location: Westcoastin’


  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:The team building philosophy is to bring in as many competitor for positions as the team can and then allow a fair competition to occur. The team consistently is a team that isn't cheap in FA but wants to find value instead of glamour. Some here want the splashy early signings yet always kvetch about the cap cost, the player's age, or their view of the player's perceived value to them. The team has the burden of top 3 QBs contract which limits their cap availability for big FA deals, yet consistently the team fields a competitive team despite shortage of cap and draft late annually. Whenever they do a big deal it is almost always panned as a mistake. Seems to me to be speaking from both sides of the complainers mouths.


    The team philosophy USED to be competition at every position, but the problem is the competition is far inferior at those positions resulting in being forced to trade away valuable draft capital to supplement those positions of failure.

    Brown, Adams, Finney, Shell, Diggs, Clowney, Olsen, Dunlap, etc..........all trades that had to be done because Pete and John's drafting and development of those positions didn't work.

    Why we're down to three picks in this years draft. Desperation. Gone are the days of adding talent like Avril, Harvin, Bennett, etc to put us over the top. Now we're forced to trade just to not go 8-8.


    Well said. I would like to add that the team fielding a competitive squad every year despite the QBs contract is due to the,,,, QB. Also, the reason people usually complain about the big free agent acquisitions is because they usually always under perform and you can attribute that to the never ending philosophy the head coach refuses to deviate from.
    pittpnthrs
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2034
    Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 am


  • There is less and less left on (sick) television worth watching. What Pete and John have done with the Seahawks is the exception. Their resilience in overcoming set backs and disappointments over the last decade is inspirational. :2thumbs:
    Jville
    * NET Alumni *
     
    Posts: 10113
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:49 pm


  • John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    Own The West wrote:
    Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Yeah and lets remember his NFL success did not come till after he got Wilson. Before Wilson sub 500 after Wilson well over 600.


    I don't think that's a fair comparison. He inherited a team that went 4-12 and 5-11 and still pulled off one of the biggest playoff upsets in NFL history. His first stint as a HC wasn't great but 10 years of a winning culture in college between NFL jobs makes it really hard to compare his current record vs the pre-USC record. I think he did really well here *comparatively" before Wilson, all while completely blowing up the roster.
    FattyKnuckle
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 115
    Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:05 pm


  • While Pete certainly has his flaws, its the responses in this thread that remind me that we have hawk fans in this forum who don't remember/never experienced the lean times.

    Its ok to be constructively critical while still acknowledging that we are coming off another division crown, a 12-4 record and another playoff berth

    Enjoy the good times, they don't last forever
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2910
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


  • FattyKnuckle wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    Own The West wrote:
    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Yeah and lets remember his NFL success did not come till after he got Wilson. Before Wilson sub 500 after Wilson well over 600.


    I don't think that's a fair comparison. He inherited a team that went 4-12 and 5-11 and still pulled off one of the biggest playoff upsets in NFL history. His first stint as a HC wasn't great but 10 years of a winning culture in college between NFL jobs makes it really hard to compare his current record vs the pre-USC record. I think he did really well here *comparatively" before Wilson, all while completely blowing up the roster.



    I don't think it fair to say he has been really successful in the NFL and not acknowledge he has not been really successful in the NFL till eh got Wilson. You can't have both. AS to college lots of coaches do great in college and not in the NFL same with players. Wilson has a college career fill with success and NFL career fill with success as well. Al I am pointing out is the fact that his NFL career without Wilson was not good.
    John63
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4307
    Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:56 pm


  • John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Yeah and lets remember his NFL success did not come till after he got Wilson. Before Wilson sub 500 after Wilson well over 600.


    I don't think that's a fair comparison. He inherited a team that went 4-12 and 5-11 and still pulled off one of the biggest playoff upsets in NFL history. His first stint as a HC wasn't great but 10 years of a winning culture in college between NFL jobs makes it really hard to compare his current record vs the pre-USC record. I think he did really well here *comparatively" before Wilson, all while completely blowing up the roster.



    I don't think it fair to say he has been really successful in the NFL and not acknowledge he has not been really successful in the NFL till eh got Wilson. You can't have both. AS to college lots of coaches do great in college and not in the NFL same with players. Wilson has a college career fill with success and NFL career fill with success as well. Al I am pointing out is the fact that his NFL career without Wilson was not good.



    About .500 in a small handful of seasons

    Not sure its fair to characterize it as not good. How about decent/somewhat incomplete all things considered.

    We also don't know if he learned more while at SC that made him a better coach. Hard to say honestly, he came into a hot mess in Seattle
    Hawkpower
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2910
    Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:53 am
    Location: Phoenix az


  • John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    John63 wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Yeah and lets remember his NFL success did not come till after he got Wilson. Before Wilson sub 500 after Wilson well over 600.


    I don't think that's a fair comparison. He inherited a team that went 4-12 and 5-11 and still pulled off one of the biggest playoff upsets in NFL history. His first stint as a HC wasn't great but 10 years of a winning culture in college between NFL jobs makes it really hard to compare his current record vs the pre-USC record. I think he did really well here *comparatively" before Wilson, all while completely blowing up the roster.



    I don't think it fair to say he has been really successful in the NFL and not acknowledge he has not been really successful in the NFL till eh got Wilson. You can't have both. AS to college lots of coaches do great in college and not in the NFL same with players. Wilson has a college career fill with success and NFL career fill with success as well. Al I am pointing out is the fact that his NFL career without Wilson was not good.


    I didn't say he was really successful in the NFL. I said calling him a subpar coach before Wilson wasn't a fair statement.

    However, if he'd had more than just 2 years without Wilson, I'd agree. But even in those 2 Wilson-less years he way exceeded expectations while turning over a very crappy team and building it very quickly into a SB champion team. Wilson was the final piece and not the most important piece at that. He wasn't even the most important piece on offense back then. That's not a slight on him nor a dismissal of his contribution, but that offense worked because of Lynch. For today's version of the team though, Wilson is clearly the most important and the team should be built to work around his skill set, not run as if we still had a generational workhorse RB or pigeonholed into a formulaic offense.

    By your same reasoning, it would be fair to say Wilson has had zero wins in the NFL without Carroll.
    FattyKnuckle
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 115
    Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:05 pm


  • I have a question for those that are frustrated with the organization. Hypothetically, if the correct decision is made considering the circumstances at that point in time throughout a season, does that guarantee a SB win for an NFL team?
    OrangeGravy
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 572
    Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:47 pm


  • Are they perfect? No. Their philosophy seems to work as they have made the playoffs 9 out of the 11 years they have been leading the team. While it hasn’t translated to more than 1 championship, those are really tough to come by. At least they are in the running almost 90% of the time by being eligible for the playoffs.

    There are several teams who wish they could replicate this.
    hawkfan68
    Gold Supporter
    Gold Supporter
     
    Posts: 8011
    Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:10 pm
    Location: Sammamish, WA


  • Paradigm Pete will still be wearing sunglasses after the sun burns out.
    Seymour
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 7285
    Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:41 pm


  • That Larry Stone article is pathetic.
    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/despite-russell-wilsons-discontent-seahawks-pete-carroll-and-john-schneider-stick-to-free-agency-strategy/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_tw_m&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1616020082

    "Carroll and Schneider believe it is unwise to jump in with guns blazing on the first few days of free agency. They believe that it is better to spread out their money rather than throw a huge sum at one player."

    "It’s a strategy that has served the Seahawks well."

    ==============

    How Sway? Spending on a bunch of 1 yr rental JAGs has hollowed out the roster.

    ==============

    "We’ll see where that goes. It’s important to realize that the offseason isn’t judged by the first 48 hours of free agency.

    Keep in mind that some of the most impactful moves by the Seahawks in recent seasons have come weeks, even months, down the road:

    The Duane Brown acquisition from the Texans on Oct. 30, 2017.

    Sheldon Richardson from the Jets on Sept. 1, 2018.

    Jadeveon Clowney from the Texans on Sept. 1, 2019.

    Quandre Diggs from the Lions on Oct. 23, 2019.

    Jamal Adams from the Jets on July 25, 2020.

    And Carlos Dunlap from the Bengals on Oct. 28, 2020."


    ==============

    Then Mr. Stone proceeds to deflect and damage control talking about moves that are not free agency related. Those trades they have to make to overcome their free agency, and draft day failings.

    Image
    I can't.
    Fade
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3119
    Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:26 am
    Location: Truth Ray


  • Fade wrote:That Larry Stone article is pathetic.
    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/despite-russell-wilsons-discontent-seahawks-pete-carroll-and-john-schneider-stick-to-free-agency-strategy/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_tw_m&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1616020082

    "Carroll and Schneider believe it is unwise to jump in with guns blazing on the first few days of free agency. They believe that it is better to spread out their money rather than throw a huge sum at one player."

    "It’s a strategy that has served the Seahawks well."

    ==============

    How Sway? Spending on a bunch of 1 yr rental JAGs has hollowed out the roster.

    ==============

    "We’ll see where that goes. It’s important to realize that the offseason isn’t judged by the first 48 hours of free agency.

    Keep in mind that some of the most impactful moves by the Seahawks in recent seasons have come weeks, even months, down the road:

    The Duane Brown acquisition from the Texans on Oct. 30, 2017.

    Sheldon Richardson from the Jets on Sept. 1, 2018.

    Jadeveon Clowney from the Texans on Sept. 1, 2019.

    Quandre Diggs from the Lions on Oct. 23, 2019.

    Jamal Adams from the Jets on July 25, 2020.

    And Carlos Dunlap from the Bengals on Oct. 28, 2020."


    ==============

    Then Mr. Stone proceeds to deflect and damage control talking about moves that are not free agency related. Those trades they have to make to overcome their free agency, and draft day failings.

    Image
    I can't.


    It has served them well. They've been a winning team for just about a decade.

    You can certainly argue that it isn't optimal, or that they could have won more in the same timeframe, and I'd agree to an extent. But to say it hasn't served them well is kinda silly.
    Maelstrom787
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4760
    Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:38 pm
    Location: Delaware


  • Maelstrom787 wrote:It has served them well. They've been a winning team for just about a decade.

    You can certainly argue that it isn't optimal, or that they could have won more in the same timeframe, and I'd agree to an extent. But to say it hasn't served them well is kinda silly.

    Like lipstick on a pig. They're doing it out of necessity, not philosophy. In an attempt to fill the holes their vapid drafts have left behind.

    They didn't do this consistently in the early days, they signed guys like Sidney Rice and Zach Miller to 5 year deals. Free Agents that could grow with their young roster. They won even more when they did it that way, even going to a couple of Super Bowls.
    Fade
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 3119
    Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:26 am
    Location: Truth Ray


  • FattyKnuckle wrote:
    Own The West wrote:
    Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Whats his record without Brady? Great coaches all need great players.
    justafan
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1935
    Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:37 am


  • knownone wrote:This is what good organizations do. I know that's disappointing from some in our fan base, but you really do want your organization to stay true to its philosophy.


    Count me as one who would rather we learn from our mistakes and adjust appropriately.
    brimsalabim
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 4445
    Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:50 am


  • justafan wrote:Whats his record without Brady? Great coaches all need great players.


    This is exactly why the Coach/QB and overall Defense all must be on the same page. I'd argue Russ isn't quite Tom Brady, and Pete isn't BB. But they're better than nearly every other combination in the NFL in the last 10 years.
    Ad Hawk
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 2595
    Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:25 am


  • Just saying we've been In it every year. Regardless of early exits. They have been doing fine.
    jamescasey1124
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 820
    Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 12:36 am


  • justafan wrote:
    FattyKnuckle wrote:
    Own The West wrote:
    Mizak wrote:https://twitter.com/seattletimes/status/1372328114026651650

    https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... 1616020082

    Huh, really stubborn huh?


    Really successful too. 3 NCAA and 1 NFL Championship so far. Only one of four coaches ever to do it at all levels.


    But the greatest NFL coach of all time with 7 SBs, one of them against PC, changes to fit his personnel. So if you ant to talk about rare coaching achievements, I'd say the scale is tipped waaaaaay towards adaptation.



    Whats his record without Brady? Great coaches all need great players.


    He went 11-5 without Brady in NE's (admittedly long) prime. Thats an apples to apples comparison I would make. Comparing what they did last season to simply "without Brady" is way oversimplified. A decade of juggling salary caps (with only 3-4 SBs to show for it) finally came crashing down and the team is in rebuild mode. They didn't even have a (barely) starting caliber QB until right before the season and they could only pay him $1M. It's akin to inheriting a crappy team. NE is in full rebuild mode after leveraging their near future for legendary greatness the past 5+ years.

    But in the one clearest example of "how did he do without Brady" he went 11-5.

    Of course great coaches need great players, and both BB and PC got their great player early in their tenure so it's extremely difficult to separate their successes from each other.
    FattyKnuckle
    NET Rookie
     
    Posts: 115
    Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:05 pm




It is currently Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:51 pm

Please REGISTER to become a member

Return to [ SEATTLE SEAHAWKS FOOTBALL ]




Information
  • Who is online