Poll: Pete or Russ from 2010 to present? Choose one

Poll: If the Hawks could have only had 1, who would you have chosen?

  • Pete

    Votes: 20 54.1%
  • Russ

    Votes: 17 45.9%

  • Total voters
    37

seabowl

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This may go down under one of the "ridiculous topics" but I thought it was an interesting one. For me it's a tough choice but probably Pete although I love RW.

Yes I'm aware Russ came to the Hawks in 2012 but put 2010 as that is when Pete arrived.
 

Jville

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Pete was the football guy that jump started this greatest Seahawks era ever. :2thumbs:

Russell was the guy John found to fit what Carroll wanted.

Most fans think about Wilson running around. Much has been made of it.

But think about who Wilson effectively replaced.

Matt Hasselbeck threw to his right the best. To the middle of the field second best. And IIRC most of Matt's interceptions were thrown to his left.

Russell Wilson throws most accurately to his right and then to his left. And that is what Pete Carroll wanted for a red line team.

Most compare the mobility of Matt and Russell and stop there. What most miss is the comparison of strengths and weaknesses of their passing locations. :229031_shrug:
 

TwistedHusky

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That defense was stacked, and that was all Pete & Co.

Almost any QB would have won a SB with the rest of that team.

Wilson was a pretty young QB then.

What Wilson DID do is kept us winning when we lost all the other pieces. The last near decade would have been rough without Wilson. But the SB never would have happened without Pete.

We've seen that Wilson by himself cannot will a team to a SB. But that defense and Lynch could carry a team through almost anything.

You have to pick Pete.
 

SoulfishHawk

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:34853_doh:

Right, almost any QB. Got it...........
Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games. Or if Russ peed in your cereal or something. This team doesn't come close to a Super Bowl w/out Russ. When he's in the HOF, I wonder if people will still be spewing such nonsense.

I give up........officially.
 

nwHawk

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Russ was instrumental in this team's early success, but Pete's system built one of the greatest defenses ever - AND changed how quite a few teams started drafting and constructing rosters. Let's not act like Pete's an old fool who forgot how to coach. Teams catch up and styles make fights. Both are very important.

Winning an NFL Championship is extremely difficult and it took both to make it happen. Let's hope they can make one more run this year.
 

hawkfan68

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I'm going with Russ on this one. The two seasons prior to Russ, the Seahawks finished 7-9 respectively. Russ and the defense jelled at the same time. When Russ was on board they went 11-5 his rookie season. I don't believe if T-Jack or Flynn were the starters, they would have had 11 wins that season.

If Pete is a such defensive mastermind, why he hasn't been able to put together a top defense since 2018? It's been ok at best the past 3 years. Never that good. Everyone wants to point fingers at KNJ but the defense is PC. With that said, KNJ isn't helping things.

Not bashing Pete at all. He's the coach that got the Seahawks a SB ring but he's definitely has some glaring question marks.
 

Lawke

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Id probably pick pete just because he helped create some of the most iconic moments in NFL history that belong to seattle. We got the "always compete" mantra that at the beginning was 100% true, we got beast quake an all time great sports moment, and we got the legion of boom which is yet another iconic thing and great thing. It was a group of great and unique characters.

However, people that say that we would have won "with almost any QB" are just so weird. If that was the case, why didnt that legendary ravens defense, or that bucs defense, or the 85 bears (arguably one of the greatest NFL teams ever) win more than once? Those defenses were all arguably as good or better than what pete put together.
It really is okay to acknowledge that both were needed and vital to bringing seattle its first lombardi while also preferring one over the other.
 

BASF

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hawkfan68":1plhi8mi said:
If Pete is a such defensive mastermind, why he hasn't been able to put together a top defense since 2018? It's been ok at best the past 3 years. Never that good. Everyone wants to point fingers at KNJ but the defense is PC. With that said, KNJ isn't helping things.


I believe that this is fourfold.

First is that there are a lot of teams that have copied the model that Pete essentially started. Quite of few of them always draft before the Seahawks, so getting the best players to fit our system is a lot more difficult than it was.

Second is that there are not enough variations to what we do. There is literally more than a decade of film on the way our players are taught to pass their receivers through their zones. It was very weird how people responded here to the way the Titans were making such gains in the middle of the field when we have seen that dozens of times during Pete's tenure here. We seem to do it quite a bit against AFC teams.

Third is the philosophy. He fully believes that if they give a team the middle they are more apt to make mistakes there that we will be able to get a turnover or they will throw incompletions. The main problem with this is that our zones are too spread out and there is no one close enough to force turnovers or incompletions.

Fourth is the problem nowadays is QBs are basically allowed to stand back and throw at will and the rules no longer allow affecting the receivers off the line like before. The league has basically made it to where Pete's style of defense is no longer legal.
 

hawkfan68

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BASF":1tf5hlhu said:
hawkfan68":1tf5hlhu said:
If Pete is a such defensive mastermind, why he hasn't been able to put together a top defense since 2018? It's been ok at best the past 3 years. Never that good. Everyone wants to point fingers at KNJ but the defense is PC. With that said, KNJ isn't helping things.


I believe that this is fourfold.

First is that there are a lot of teams that have copied the model that Pete essentially started. Quite of few of them always draft before the Seahawks, so getting the best players to fit our system is a lot more difficult than it was.

Second is that there are not enough variations to what we do. There is literally more than a decade of film on the way our players are taught to pass their receivers through their zones. It was very weird how people responded here to the way the Titans were making such gains in the middle of the field when we have seen that dozens of times during Pete's tenure here. We seem to do it quite a bit against AFC teams.

Third is the philosophy. He fully believes that if they give a team the middle they are more apt to make mistakes there that we will be able to get a turnover or they will throw incompletions. The main problem with this is that our zones are too spread out and there is no one close enough to force turnovers or incompletions.

Fourth is the problem nowadays is QBs are basically allowed to stand back and throw at will and the rules no longer allow affecting the receivers off the line like before. The league has basically made it to where Pete's style of defense is no longer legal.

I agree. This points to PC's refusal to adapt to the changes. This is also a factor in why we don't see adjustments made during games. Just my observation. Not saying he's bad coach but at the level he's coaching these days, it's no surprise he can't get past the divisional round of the playoffs.
 

hgwellz12

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SoulfishHawk":37q29mk0 said:
:34853_doh:

Right, almost any QB. Got it...........
Sometimes I wonder if people even watch the games. Or if Russ peed in your cereal or something. This team doesn't come close to a Super Bowl w/out Russ. When he's in the HOF, I wonder if people will still be spewing such nonsense.

I give up........officially.


To answer your question, YES.
 

Scorpion05

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I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.
 
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seabowl

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Scorpion05":1ed9hhpb said:
I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.

You have both Flacco and Foles winning the bowl post 2008 so yes you need a AB but not necessarily an elite AB.
 

Sgt. Largent

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nwHawk":2st2jcxx said:
Russ was instrumental in this team's early success


He was?

What happened to all the "Russell Wilson's just a game manager" conversations we had on here and on all the national media shows?

Russ was important, but IMO he was 3rd or 4th on the list of why the Hawk's went to two SB's and won one.

- All time great defense
- LOB
- Marshawn
- Pete and John mining the draft insanely well

Could we have won a SB without Russell? Idk, probably not. But "instrumental?" Idk bout that either.
 

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Scorpion05":31zgp53k said:
I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.

So we are including his NC State and Wisconsin years in this discussion? Seems weird.
 
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seabowl

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BASF":3be7nw01 said:
Scorpion05":3be7nw01 said:
I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.

So we are including his NC State and Wisconsin years in this discussion? Seems weird.

Now that’s funny
 

OrangeGravy

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Sgt. Largent":2n2oesyd said:
nwHawk":2n2oesyd said:
Russ was instrumental in this team's early success


He was?

What happened to all the "Russell Wilson's just a game manager" conversations we had on here and on all the national media shows?

Russ was important, but IMO he was 3rd or 4th on the list of why the Hawk's went to two SB's and won one.

- All time great defense
- LOB
- Marshawn
- Pete and John mining the draft insanely well

Could we have won a SB without Russell? Idk, probably not. But "instrumental?" Idk bout that either.
Here's a fun hypothetical. Ask ourselves which other QBs in this period could we have plugged with similar results?
 
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seabowl

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I bet the Hawks to win the 2012 season Super Bowl literally the day after the 2011 season Super Bowl in the hopes they would get Manning which I thought was quite likely. I got 75-1 odds and was only one year off. Manning who we know went to the Broncos would have been really fun to have coupled with the D and LOB. I think they would have won multiple bowls with Manning as QB.
 

Scorpion05

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seabowl":jcx5fazu said:
Scorpion05":jcx5fazu said:
I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.

You have both Flacco and Foles winning the bowl post 2008 so yes you need a AB but not necessarily an elite AB.


Both Flacco and Foles played at an elite level to win their super bowls.

This is the problem with narratives. You're focusing on reputation and not facts. Flacco's performance was elite. Foles' performance was elite. It's illogical to argue otherwise
 

Scorpion05

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Sgt. Largent":1bapzf3d said:
nwHawk":1bapzf3d said:
Russ was instrumental in this team's early success


He was?

What happened to all the "Russell Wilson's just a game manager" conversations we had on here and on all the national media shows?

Russ was important, but IMO he was 3rd or 4th on the list of why the Hawk's went to two SB's and won one.

- All time great defense
- LOB
- Marshawn
- Pete and John mining the draft insanely well

Could we have won a SB without Russell? Idk, probably not. But "instrumental?" Idk bout that either.

And my argument is, Russ was minimum 2nd. If not arguably first. You cannot win a super bowl in the modern era without good to great QB play.

The same Russ that threw the game winning TD in the NFC championship game against one of the toughest defenses in the league, absolutely was instrumental to the Seahawks success.

The "Russell Wilson's just a game manager" conversation was never rooted in facts. It was rooted in bias from a national media that expected him to be no more than a backup. From a purely factual standpoint, Russell Wilson has been a top performing QB since entering the league when factoring in his passing and rushing stats. This isn't news, some players have always been overlooked or rated lower than others despite their performance. See Derek Carr for example.

Also, Marshawn Lynch's best years were with Russell Wilson. This has been posted before...his yards per carry, efficiency, everything all went up. Great running backs, and great defenses are helpful for championships. But a great QB is essential. Russell Wilson's main issue was being unconventional, and too short to be taken seriously. Any respect Wilson has earned as a top 5 QB was done from over performing.
 

Scorpion05

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seabowl":1j75rkks said:
BASF":1j75rkks said:
Scorpion05":1j75rkks said:
I voted Russ, looks like we’re evenly split on this one.

Pete did indeed build one of the greatest defenses of all time. But there have been plenty of number 1 elite defenses in history. They didn’t win a Super Bowl.

I think about some of those defenses that never made it. The 2017 Jags defense, the 2010 Jets defense, some of the Steelers defenses over the years. The Niners defense under Harbaugh and Shanahan.

The honest truth is, post 2008 you need a QB to win a SB. People credit the defense , but would acknowledge Lynch was as if not more instrumental. When the truth is Russell handled the ball 60 times a game, and was one of the best scramblers in NFL history. The mobility of Russ combined with his arm, made him a top 10 QB from 2010-2012 in my opinion. It’s always been weird to me that despite having 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, Russ was dismissed as a game manager. He then ran for 800 yards in his sophomore season and people still ran with “game manager.” Personally I blame the media.

So we are including his NC State and Wisconsin years in this discussion? Seems weird.

Now that’s funny


Ha, honest mistake. I meant 2012-2014 but got confused with the numbers/Pete's building years. Plus the title of the thread
 
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