Poll: Hawks biggest issue- Scheme (coaching) or Players

Poll: Hawks biggest issue- Scheme (coaching) or Players

  • Scheme (coaching)

    Votes: 59 93.7%
  • Players

    Votes: 4 6.3%

  • Total voters
    63

seabowl

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To me this is an easy one in that the schemes we run on both O and especially D just are pathetic. Sure the team is not the 2013 team but still I think a decent amount of talent. persists.
 

Sgt. Largent

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It's a complicated question.

It's true we're running basic schemes on defense that teams are easily picking apart. But coaches and coordinators don't resort to base schemes unless they have no faith and trust in the players to execute and excel in more complicated schemes where they're trying to disguising and confuse other team's offense.

So this is really a chicken or the egg discussion, and I'd side on the side of talent over scheme.

Watch defensive film from 2013 or 2014, lots and lots of movement and D-line stunting. The difference is back then you had DB's that you could leave on islands and know they had half the field locked down to allow you to do these things.

Right now we have the opposite of that, the D is screwing up so often and devoid of talent at the DB position that Pete and Norton have resorted to just running base cover three hoping Russell and the offense can out score the other team.....and even this looks terrible because half the players are pressing and going off script getting out of position trying to make plays.
 

TraderGary

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Sgt. Largent":2uav5wxx said:
It's a complicated question.

It's true we're running basic schemes on defense that teams are easily picking apart. But coaches and coordinators don't resort to base schemes unless they have no faith and trust in the players to execute and excel in more complicated schemes where they're trying to disguising and confuse other team's offense.

So this is really a chicken or the egg discussion, and I'd side on the side of talent over scheme.

Watch defensive film from 2013 or 2014, lots and lots of movement and D-line stunting. The difference is back then you had DB's that you could leave on islands and know they had half the field locked down to allow you to do these things.

Right now we have the opposite of that, the D is screwing up so often and devoid of talent at the DB position that Pete and Norton have resorted to just running base cover three hoping Russell and the offense can out score the other team.....and even this looks terrible because half the players are pressing and going off script getting out of position trying to make plays.

I don't agree that it's strictly a personnel issue, even though we probably have the worst starting CB duo in the league. But they made a choice who they were going into the season with. If they felt they couldn't run the schemes they wanted to with their current personnel, then that should have been addressed in the offseason.

But for arguments sake, let's say it is a personnel issue and they can't really do everything the wanted to on defense. How is instructing your corners to line up 8 to 10 yards off the LOS and backpedal at the snap a sound philosophy? How could anyone in their right mind expect that to stop or even slow down the opposing offenses?

I think everyone here knows PC has this extremely irrational fear of getting beat over the top, and as a result, instructs his CB's, LB's, and even safeties to drop deep and keep everything in front of them. It's essentially a prevent defense for 4 quarters. Is it any surprise they're giving up easy completions for 1st downs and allowing 8 to 10 minute drives to opposing offenses pretty much at will with very little resistance? But hey, at least we haven't given up the big plays over the top! It almost feels like that's a win in PC's mind.

Given that philosophy, how could they possibly expect to stop anyone and get off the field? And the players know it which is why we're beginning to see some of them speak out.

Here's another fun fact. Of Cousin's 38 pass attempts yesterday, only one was defensed, and that was on a Carlos Dunlap deflection. ONE! In the 3 games combined, they've defensed a grand total of FIVE passes out of 116 attempts. Why? It's obvious. They are nowhere near the receivers when the ball is thrown to knock down a pass, or god forbid, get an interception, because they're playing too damn far off which is what they are instructed to do by PC and KNJ. It's freaking insane and it absolutely infuriates me every time I watch a Hawks game. And this BS has been going on for years! How can PC not see the flaws in that strategy? I just don't get it.
 
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seabowl

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TraderGary":39gddadh said:
Sgt. Largent":39gddadh said:
It's a complicated question.

It's true we're running basic schemes on defense that teams are easily picking apart. But coaches and coordinators don't resort to base schemes unless they have no faith and trust in the players to execute and excel in more complicated schemes where they're trying to disguising and confuse other team's offense.

So this is really a chicken or the egg discussion, and I'd side on the side of talent over scheme.

Watch defensive film from 2013 or 2014, lots and lots of movement and D-line stunting. The difference is back then you had DB's that you could leave on islands and know they had half the field locked down to allow you to do these things.

Right now we have the opposite of that, the D is screwing up so often and devoid of talent at the DB position that Pete and Norton have resorted to just running base cover three hoping Russell and the offense can out score the other team.....and even this looks terrible because half the players are pressing and going off script getting out of position trying to make plays.

I don't agree that it's strictly a personnel issue, even though we probably have the worst starting CB duo in the league. But they made a choice who they were going into the season with. If they felt they couldn't run the schemes they wanted to with their current personnel, then that should have been addressed in the offseason.

But for arguments sake, let's say it is a personnel issue and they can't really do everything the wanted to on defense. How is instructing your corners to line up 8 to 10 yards off the LOS and backpedal at the snap a sound philosophy? How could anyone in their right mind expect that to stop or even slow down the opposing offenses?

I think everyone here knows PC has this extremely irrational fear of getting beat over the top, and as a result, instructs his CB's, LB's, and even safeties to drop deep and keep everything in front of them. It's essentially a prevent defense for 4 quarters. Is it any surprise they're giving up easy completions for 1st downs and allowing 8 to 10 minute drives to opposing offenses pretty much at will with very little resistance? But hey, at least we haven't given up the big plays over the top! It almost feels like that's a win in PC's mind.

Given that philosophy, how could they possibly expect to stop anyone and get off the field? And the players know it which is why we're beginning to see some of them speak out.

Here's another fun fact. Of Cousin's 38 pass attempts yesterday, only one was defensed, and that was on a Carlos Dunlap deflection. ONE! In the 3 games combined, they've defensed a grand total of FIVE passes out of 116 attempts. Why? It's obvious. They are nowhere near the receivers when the ball is thrown to knock down a pass, or god forbid, get an interception, because they're playing too damn far off which is what they are instructed to do by PC and KNJ. It's freaking insane and it absolutely infuriates me every time I watch a Hawks game. And this BS has been going on for years! How can PC not see the flaws in that strategy? I just don't get it.

Pete is so deathly afraid of getting beat deep that he’d rather the other team complete an unreal amount of uncontested passes on us and let them control the clock. He needs to change his philosophy or he’s going to be gone and so will Russ. I know I know he won’t.
 
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seabowl

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Did anyone see the comments by Reed and Flowers after the game blaming the scheme for their ineffectiveness?
 

Sgt. Largent

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TraderGary":17q4ea4v said:
I don't agree that it's strictly a personnel issue, even though we probably have the worst starting CB duo in the league. But they made a choice who they were going into the season with. If they felt they couldn't run the schemes they wanted to with their current personnel, then that should have been addressed in the offseason.

But for arguments sake, let's say it is a personnel issue and they can't really do everything the wanted to on defense. How is instructing your corners to line up 8 to 10 yards off the LOS and backpedal at the snap a sound philosophy? How could anyone in their right mind expect that to stop or even slow down the opposing offenses?.

Did you watch MNF last night? Do you know who the Cowboy's D-coordinator is?

It's Dan Quinn, and he runs all the same cover 2 and cover 3 schemes Pete and Norton run. Football defense isn't rocket science, most of the teams run cover 2 and cover 3 for the majority of games, and then mix in press, man, blitz packages, etc.

Very few coordinators run exotic defenses, save for maybe the Eagles and a few other teams that blitz at an abnormally high rate compared to other teams.

So yes, it's personnel over scheme for me. We have a D-line that can't get pressure with just four, or five for that matter. We have LB's that can't cover in space when it's cover 2 and they're responsible for the inner half of the field, we have a free lancing strong safety now that no one really knows what the hell he's doing on most plays, so that's leaving large sections of the field open.........................and most of all we have the worst DB's in the entire league.

Add it all up, and voila you have what we've watched the last two weeks. Average QB's picking us apart at will, and RB's going for over 100 yards easily.
 

CalgaryFan05

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Sports Hernia":lpqiexsd said:
It’s both.

Absolutely. THIS ^^^^^

It's both for sure. Norton looks asleep at the switch. Waldron - Saw a nice 1st half of the first game?

Too many big heads. Russ isn't happy. Adams is a maniac - haven't figured out whether that's good or bad.

Only one with a level head seems to be BWagz - and even he seems pissed off.

Hate to say ANY of this. Please gimme 2013 back again.

Reminds me of the old bumper stickers in Alberta. "Please god, give me another oil boom. I promise not to piss it away this time".
 

fenderbender123

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We need to change one or the other. Either change the scheme to fit the personnel, or make the personnel better to fit the scheme.
 

ZagHawk

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Unless your players are refusing to listen to the coach and/or are purposely trying to drop plays/game.

The biggest problem is always coaching. It is up to the coach to acknowledge what their players can and cannot execute, and figure out something that will be effective with their resource pool. The same applies to just about any leadership position for any business. Anyone who is in any kind of leadership position at their job or their own company, you tell me who's at fault, your employees, or you? I'm pretty sure it's you.

If you got two chefs and you have one that specializes in burgers and the other that specializes in Pizza. But you constantly make your daily menu nothing but seafood, don't be surprised if all your customers start writing scathing reviews on how bad your food is. If you want to serve seafood, find another chef that specializes in seafood, but until then you have Pizzas and burgers on the menu.


Oh and in the same light, don't purposely force the chefs to keep putting the pizzas back in the oven or on the grill until they are burnt to a crisp before serving to the customers. And the few times you have seafood, its like grilled bacon shrimp the easiest thing on the planet to taste good. So they all complain that your pizzas and burgers suck but the shrimp was good, and you can say "SEE I TOLD YOU no one wants pizzas and burgers! we need to serve seafood!!!".
 

HawkOG70’

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They played nickel 90% of the time against the Colts and went base 4-3 almost all game against Minnesota. Pete and Ken need to be able to evolve with the game and they haven't. Offense is top 10 even though they've looked like shit at times. Stop blitzing and eating screens all night ffs
 
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seabowl

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Whoever the two of you are that voted for the players I’m sorry to say but you are out of your mind
 
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