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Wilson’s head is the issue not his finger

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  • keasley45 wrote:Image20210103_175554 by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Posted this before. Simple read... Lockett knows he will be open. theres nobody in the middle of the field. the defense has vacated it completely ... and they dont care.

    Image20210103_175623 by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Russ reaches his drop and stands there waiting for his WR's to run into coverage deep... Its literally the exact opposite of what he should be doing. The coverage is obvious. The read is obvious.

    This should be what... a 15 yard gain?? Its a sack inside the 10 yardline.




    It's interesting... I Don't think Schotty is a bad OC but it kind of feels like he took the hit... It's obvious that Schotty would see this decisions Wilson was making...


    Whats your take on this? Was Schotty the fall guy?


    Truth is we don't really know... maybe there was a philosophy difference between him and Carroll but you would think that if Wilson hit those middle passes the D will adjust and Wilson will get his long ball especially if the run Game is going...

    your thoughts?


    EDIT; I meant to post this on the Rams pic

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  • Seahawk_Dan wrote:Only thing on Wilson's mind is how great he's gonna look in black and gold next year.



    Proof?
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  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:One game is not a trend.

    So one game against a rusty QB and everything is super-OK?

    We can acknowledge that the CB play is better after changing the CBs.

    Which helped pass defense. But I need to see something besides stopping a rusty QB, even Aaron Rodgers, beforehand.

    We are a 3 win team. It might be too late.

    Wilson has not been playing for weeks, so most of these failures are on Pete and Pete alone. Wilson came back and had one bad game.

    Pete had a string of them.

    Whatever Pete fixed better stay fixed, because that is the only way we have a chance. But it isn't good enough to be OK and that is where things are heading. 6-8 wins is a failure in a 17 game season.

    I don't even think he gets that.


    While i'm in agreement with most of this post, I did say I would judge the defense after the GB and Arizona games and so far they are making me look like I was wrong. They have improved. While they arent the 85' Bears like LTH is making them out to be, they certainly dont seem to be awful anymore either.


    Actually the Hawks are playing a jam front like the Bears with 1 or 2 deep safety's good of you to recognize that LOL



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  • So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:Here is Kurt Warner saying the same thing as Keasley here with all-22 tape.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq1NR9-zFig
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6BUU_FZAPE&t=1078s

    Samuel Gold noticing the same things once again with all-22:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnarei9FgGo&t=313s


    Crazy. ive never seen Kurts piece on Russ but look at the first play he analyzes against the Giants and the play that i selected vs the 9ers. ITS THE EXACT SAME PRESNAP READ AND RUSS DOES THE EXACT SAME, STUPID THING... and Kurt Warner basically says the same thing. When the corner shows blitz, you HAVE to change your read and go either to the middle or one of the other options. Against the 9ers, it was the right side of the field or the crosser. Vs the Giants, it was different. But he ends up just catching and throwing. the dude either is stubborn, or has no idea whats going on. He's obviously NOT learning from his mistakes because again, from one season to the next and in the EXACT defensive alignment, he does the same thing.

    I dont get paid 30 mil to do this, nor have i ever played in the NFL and I can see it from the sofa as it happens. But again, the narrative is that there was no protection and he had to get rid of the ball. BS. He's constantly making questionable decisions.

    Ans sorry. Maybe Geno isnt the answer, but its not THAT difficult to make the reads he is missing. He has to improve or he has to move on. Because doing this kind of thing... what we saw against the Packers isnt going to get us anywhere this year or next. Defenses know how to beat him.

    They discuss it here in the first 15 minutes or so. It's pretty clear that Russell just doesn't like throwing over the middle. They talk about potential options to make up for that, but a lot of the other ways to attack the middle when the D is giving it to you, Russell doesn't care for either. One of the easiest ways is running the ball. I think if you did a blind survey of past really QBs, they'd tell you how limited Russell really is. Every sees it, but just doesnt want to say it. You can see it in their face when they start to talk about and hesitate. They can't accept that an 'elite' QB (I loath that word) could possibly have a hole that big in their game. The problem is starting from the premise of an elite QB. Once you start there, your brain won't allow you to get to where your eyes are telling you to go


    https://youtu.be/mo1NT-EdvmI
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:Here is Kurt Warner saying the same thing as Keasley here with all-22 tape.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq1NR9-zFig
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6BUU_FZAPE&t=1078s

    Samuel Gold noticing the same things once again with all-22:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnarei9FgGo&t=313s


    Crazy. ive never seen Kurts piece on Russ but look at the first play he analyzes against the Giants and the play that i selected vs the 9ers. ITS THE EXACT SAME PRESNAP READ AND RUSS DOES THE EXACT SAME, STUPID THING... and Kurt Warner basically says the same thing. When the corner shows blitz, you HAVE to change your read and go either to the middle or one of the other options. Against the 9ers, it was the right side of the field or the crosser. Vs the Giants, it was different. But he ends up just catching and throwing. the dude either is stubborn, or has no idea whats going on. He's obviously NOT learning from his mistakes because again, from one season to the next and in the EXACT defensive alignment, he does the same thing.

    I dont get paid 30 mil to do this, nor have i ever played in the NFL and I can see it from the sofa as it happens. But again, the narrative is that there was no protection and he had to get rid of the ball. BS. He's constantly making questionable decisions.

    Ans sorry. Maybe Geno isnt the answer, but its not THAT difficult to make the reads he is missing. He has to improve or he has to move on. Because doing this kind of thing... what we saw against the Packers isnt going to get us anywhere this year or next. Defenses know how to beat him.

    They discuss it here in the first 15 minutes or so. It's pretty clear that Russell just doesn't like throwing over the middle. They talk about potential options to make up for that, but a lot of the other ways to attack the middle when the D is giving it to you, Russell doesn't care for either. One of the easiest ways is running the ball. I think if you did a blind survey of past really QBs, they'd tell you how limited Russell really is. Every sees it, but just doesnt want to say it. You can see it in their face when they start to talk about and hesitate. They can't accept that an 'elite' QB (I loath that word) could possibly have a hole that big in their game. The problem is starting from the premise of an elite QB. Once you start there, your brain won't allow you to get to where your eyes are telling you to go


    https://youtu.be/mo1NT-EdvmI


    Sad thing is that it's not even just the middle.
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  • LTH wrote:
    Jville wrote:This is an unusually good thread made possible by a number of thoughtful posts. :2thumbs:

    I re-watched the Packers broad cast game and noted Tony Romo's remark that the Packer's Defense has had three excellent back to back games verses Kyler Murray then Patrick Mahomes and now Russell Wilson. Romo speculated that the Packers may have figured out how to dictate to that style of QB and offenses.

    Wilson can't possibly have a worst game than he did in his first shut out. But, the league has seen 10 years of that style. This year's offensive upside may be lower than what many have been accustom to.

    I also seem to remember a more humble Wilson ..... which is of great benefit when it comes to learning and adjusting to a changing game.



    This team is close to being a great team... its not a matter of talent and its not a matter of coaching or scheme...Wilson is the key to making this team go...

    I believe he was embarrassed with the GB loss. I believe he will make the adjustments that need to be made because he has no other choice other than to lose and that is not in Wilsons DNA... the team is built in a certain way you can't change that dynamic scheme wise and expect to win...They have to run the ball and he has to make the adjustments as stated ....

    So Keasley45's point either he is stupid or really stubborn is kind of on the table. He is Stubborn, but he is not stupid! I just don't see Carroll letting this season float away because of ego...It's way against what he believes and what he teaches. Carroll will work this out no question in m,y mind because if he doesn't they are toast...


    LTH


    As I recall ....... prior to drafting Wilson, Carroll invested some time in consulting with Bud Grant who coached Fran Tarkington as his quarterback. So, I would think Carroll is about as prepared as he can be to deal with the current challenge. The Arizona game should be telling.
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    Jville wrote:This is an unusually good thread made possible by a number of thoughtful posts. :2thumbs:

    I re-watched the Packers broad cast game and noted Tony Romo's remark that the Packer's Defense has had three excellent back to back games verses Kyler Murray then Patrick Mahomes and now Russell Wilson. Romo speculated that the Packers may have figured out how to dictate to that style of QB and offenses.

    Wilson can't possibly have a worst game than he did in his first shut out. But, the league has seen 10 years of that style. This year's offensive upside may be lower than what many have been accustom to.

    I also seem to remember a more humble Wilson ..... which is of great benefit when it comes to learning and adjusting to a changing game.



    This team is close to being a great team... its not a matter of talent and its not a matter of coaching or scheme...Wilson is the key to making this team go...

    I believe he was embarrassed with the GB loss. I believe he will make the adjustments that need to be made because he has no other choice other than to lose and that is not in Wilsons DNA... the team is built in a certain way you can't change that dynamic scheme wise and expect to win...They have to run the ball and he has to make the adjustments as stated ....

    So Keasley45's point either he is stupid or really stubborn is kind of on the table. He is Stubborn, but he is not stupid! I just don't see Carroll letting this season float away because of ego...It's way against what he believes and what he teaches. Carroll will work this out no question in m,y mind because if he doesn't they are toast...


    LTH


    I dont think he's stupid either. But the guy has got to start consistently doing the simple things accurately. He's got to. study up because that 9ers example speaks to not knowing or caring about what the defense is about to do to you. And his presnap awareness is questionable at best.

    I remember Bruce Arians saying point blank that the QB needed to play better when critiquing Brady's play early last season. He used words like 'poor' and 'inexcusable'. It was important for him to do that because it sent a message not just to Brady, but to the team that no one was above criticism and that other players hard work wouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of one players standing. I think Pete's mistake last year when he saw what was happening was that he was too soft about it. He's always trying to take the positive road in leveling criticism. He CANT do that this year or he will lose all the good in this team. The defense is playing the best ball it's played in years and is set to build on that success going into next year. The line is good. The running game is solid. Special teams are good. If he doesn't grab hold of this thing firmly... we stand to lose it all.

    Russell is gonna look good against teams like the Jags that play a lot of man and don't play 2 high. He's gonna look mediocre to bad against teams that stay back if they can't or don't run the ball well often enough. It's as simple as that. That is what Russell's career is gonna look like going forward because that's basically what it's always been. It's the reason we as a team and he as the QB struggle so much in the playoffs. The only way we typically beat good teams with Russell is when we hold them under 20. Perfect example is beating the Rams 20-9 at the end of the regular season last year. It usually takes either a defensive score or short field turnovers to get to 20+. Good teams are gonna take away what you do best and when you're not well rounded enough to attack what they're giving you, you lose. Elite QBs can take advantage of that more often than not. They don't go multiple years without fixing a glaring hole like that.

    And I dont want to hear about stats and dvoa. Those don't beat good playoff teams. They might get you in, but good teams are gonna shove dvoa up your ass in the playoffs. The LOB made their name doing it
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  • If Wilson can no longer be the 4rth quarter guru , then what ?
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  • LTH and a few other said it. Put him back time the efficient manager role and rely on a creative run game mixed with formation variations pass from the same look and we can be competitive.

    Keep relying on Russ ball and we are in trouble.

    That's not to say that we go to the extreme we did against NO (that was absurd), but if we're 55/45 run to pass, I think that's right.
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  • keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.



    If you look at the game stats against the Rams in the playoffs it supports your theory, Seattle running backs were 20 carries for 82 yards for 4.1 yards per carry. Carson was 16-77 ... I did notice that Wilson hit some middle routes he was 11 for 27 for 174... but again what killed them was the sacks 5-32. TOP Rams 33.29 Seahawks 26.21 and 3rd down conversions, penalties 9-60 yards... just not enough offensive plays. the same thing that has been happening this year only schotty isn't the problem so it seems... but he probably wasn't going to throw Wilson under the bus... but interesting to see what the Rams did 40+ carries for 150+ yards they just controlled the tempo of the game totally on the ground with a QB with a hurt hand.. gee that sounds like what Pete wanted to do against GB.

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  • keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended


    No one, absolutely no one could put limits on Mr. Unlimited. You want to discipline Russ, or want him to be a game manager again, all these are like putting shackles on Mr. unlimited. Please don't kid yourself, our chef wants to cook, and he will. If he couldn't cook here, he will leave and cook somewhere else.

    Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by toffee on Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended


    Yeah I mean I see that Carroll is a defender of Russ which makes these Russ "poor decision making" arguments interesting ... Listening to Carroll he says that its not about Russ making poor choices that it's about running the ball more, 3rd down conversion and TOP making so there are not enough plays to establish the run game If I'm understanding him right cause I was only half listening...but ya know if he does recognize the issue (which I'm going to call the Keasley45 theory LOL) it's not like he is publicly going to throw Russ under the bus... after all the first rule is protect the team. At the same token isn't not running the ball and making poor choices directly effect 3rd down conversion and TOP which effects the amount of plays the offense has to run. I guess it does LOL I'm not sure I understand his point...maybe I have to go back and listen again...


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  • Russell is tough to evaluate because his skill set is so atypical for a QB. The starting point for most people here is you have an elite QB. From there everything else related to the offense from coaching to playcalling gets evaluated through that lens. If the offense is struggling the elite QB is the last place everyone is gonna look to as the problem. It's a perfectly reasonable thought process.

    I'm not of the opinion that Russell is an elite QB. He's an elite athlete and football player that plays the QB position. Those skills are why he makes so many great plays. When it comes to the specific skills required to execute the QB position, Russell is NOT elite overall. Arm yes. Accuracy, mostly yes. Pre and post snap reads, below average. Pocket awareness-discipline-presence (pick your preferred term), below average. Ability to use the whole field, below average. This skill set is the problem. This skill set it what gets OCs fired. This skill set is why Russell and the team have always been bad on 3rd down. It's why he can't move the ball consistently. Think about how hard it is to call plays for a QB that won't throw to 1/3 of the field. You want to know why the play calling looks so disjointed, there's your answer. It's easy to see if you remove the elite QB lens. Elite QBs don't get zero MVP votes despite good numbers.

    You know what the bread and butter of the Rams/ Waldron passing attack is, dig routes. What do kupp and woods kill us with, dig routes. You know what part of the field dig routes exploit, the intermediate middle. What do you do right now if you're Waldron and you've discovered that your elite QB cant execute the best part of what you want to run in the passing game? The GB game should put the Pete handcuffing russ narrative to bed forever. Russ handcuffs Russ
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended


    Yeah, Schottenheimer was known in every location he's been an OC as a guy that runs a tight ship and demands discipline. He also has a bit of a reputation as a QB guru. Drew Brees personally credited him as being the one that was responsible for elevating his game. At first under Schottenheimer, Wilson was forced to play a more traditional game. He started climbing the pocket and taking what he was given more frequently. Things started to go back to normal as time marched on. At first it was rough for Wilson but he was learning.

    I'm curious as to what went on between the three. Objectively our offense improved each year Schottenheimer was OC. I know Pete Carroll and Schottenheimer got into it with each other a few times. I heard stories of Carroll changing plays at the last minute. It also seems as time went on under Schottenheimer, Wilson started regressing to old habits. I'd be very curious to hear what went on behind the scenes. If we look at his playcalls too, they were actually the type of stuff that you would call to beat the defenses that showed up against Wilson, as shown by Kurt Warner. In fact, in those videos Warner was praising some of the play calls. Wilson just ignored the open receivers looking for something to open up deep.

    For as good as Wilson is, he seems to have a serious lack of fundamentals in some regards. Our QB is definitely a unique duck.
    Spin Doctor
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:Russell is tough to evaluate because his skill set is so atypical for a QB. The starting point for most people here is you have an elite QB. From there everything else related to the offense from coaching to playcalling gets evaluated through that lens. If the offense is struggling the elite QB is the last place everyone is gonna look to as the problem. It's a perfectly reasonable thought process.

    I'm not of the opinion that Russell is an elite QB. He's an elite athlete and football player that plays the QB position. Those skills are why he makes so many great plays. When it comes to the specific skills required to execute the QB position, Russell is NOT elite overall. Arm yes. Accuracy, mostly yes. Pre and post snap reads, below average. Pocket awareness-discipline-presence (pick your preferred term), below average. Ability to use the whole field, below average. This skill set is the problem. This skill set it what gets OCs fired. This skill set is why Russell and the team have always been bad on 3rd down. It's why he can't move the ball consistently. Think about how hard it is to call plays for a QB that won't throw to 1/3 of the field. You want to know why the play calling looks so disjointed, there's your answer. It's easy to see if you remove the elite QB lens. Elite QBs don't get zero MVP votes despite good numbers.

    You know what the bread and butter of the Rams/ Waldron passing attack is, dig routes. What do kupp and woods kill us with, dig routes. You know what part of the field dig routes exploit, the intermediate middle. What do you do right now if you're Waldron and you've discovered that your elite QB cant execute the best part of what you want to run in the passing game? The GB game should put the Pete handcuffing russ narrative to bed forever. Russ handcuffs Russ


    That's it. All of it... In a nutshell.
    keasley45
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:Let the games begin. Cowherd has started parroting Russell's camp talking points and now Peter King, JSs media guy is hitting back? This article outlines what we've been discussing pretty well

    https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/11/1 ... s-seahawks


    That article says it all and supports all of the criticism in this thread. Unless Wilson changes, we have gone as far as we can. And I highly doubt he will be willing to admit his flaws now because that would entirely destroy his reputation and legacy. AN ELITE QB THAT STRUGGLES TO READ DEFENSES? That dog don't hunt. So I don't see another OC coming in here and fixing it. And any HC that would come here that's worth his salt would demand better play.
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    OrangeGravy wrote:Let the games begin. Cowherd has started parroting Russell's camp talking points and now Peter King, JSs media guy is hitting back? This article outlines what we've been discussing pretty well

    https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/11/1 ... s-seahawks


    That article says it all and supports all of the criticism in this thread. Unless Wilson changes, we have gone as far as we can. And I highly doubt he will be willing to admit his flaws now because that would entirely destroy his reputation and legacy. AN ELITE QB THAT STRUGGLES TO READ DEFENSES? That dog don't hunt. So I don't see another OC coming in here and fixing it. And any HC that would come here that's worth his salt would demand better play.


    You're right - maybe he needs a hard nosed coach, instead of a player's coach. Pete has the "always compete" card, but who is competing for Russell's job? No one. So the approach simply doesn't work.
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  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended


    Yeah, Schottenheimer was known in every location he's been an OC as a guy that runs a tight ship and demands discipline. He also has a bit of a reputation as a QB guru. Drew Brees personally credited him as being the one that was responsible for elevating his game. At first under Schottenheimer, Wilson was forced to play a more traditional game. He started climbing the pocket and taking what he was given more frequently. Things started to go back to normal as time marched on. At first it was rough for Wilson but he was learning.

    I'm curious as to what went on between the three. Objectively our offense improved each year Schottenheimer was OC. I know Pete Carroll and Schottenheimer got into it with each other a few times. I heard stories of Carroll changing plays at the last minute. It also seems as time went on under Schottenheimer, Wilson started regressing to old habits. I'd be very curious to hear what went on behind the scenes. If we look at his playcalls too, they were actually the type of stuff that you would call to beat the defenses that showed up against Wilson, as shown by Kurt Warner. In fact, in those videos Warner was praising some of the play calls. Wilson just ignored the open receivers looking for something to open up deep.

    For as good as Wilson is, he seems to have a serious lack of fundamentals in some regards. Our QB is definitely a unique duck.



    The question is was it really Wilson or was PC in his head telling him to go back to Pete ball with his throws meaning chunk plays. W will never know but we do know in PCs own book he wants to run, get chunk plays in the passing game, meaning long throws, and he was to throw outside the numbers. So that means most of this is on PC. He created his Frankenstein.
    John63
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  • John63 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So with Schotty... i think it might have been a case of him defending his position at years end- that the games he was calling worked. I'm sure Pete wanted to change the approach and adjust to a more run based scheme. Schotty sees the same stuff we can on All 22 and I'm sure he looked at last season and said 'we shouldn't have lost against the Giants or Rams (x2) or Cardinals based on poor offensive play' . And I'm sure his argument, and it would be valid, is that those games would have been W's had the QB just done what he was supposed to. So the change that needs to be made is the QB needs to play better... not that the scheme is wrong.

    Pete on the other hand knows Russ by now and is certain what he can and can't or won't do. So adhering to the idea that Russ needed tough love and just push through and do his job correctly was maybe a non starter for Pete.

    And it's also possible that Russ may have saw the easier path forward being to get rid of the guy who was going to push harder on his flaws, not change the scheme, - because by now, Schotty knew all of them- and reset with a coach who could scheme around them. It preserves his reputation, shifts the narrative, and if a brilliant OC can come in and confuse defenses enough in his playcalls...well then if Russ's secret flaw is presnap reads... all of that gets a whole lot easier.

    In comes Waldron. But there's only so much scheming around inability or stubborness that is possible. And here we are.

    Not saying that's what happened, but when you look at his shortfalls now in year 10 and that with now a 3rd OC, we're running the same bland stuff and NOT creating off of anticipation... it in my opinion is an entirely plausible scenario. That and you take subtle remarks like Russ comment after the Titans game when asked about whether he could have helped the team more by taking more of what was available instead of looking for the big plays...his response was ' we put up 24 points '. That's an entirely defensive posture triggered by a question about his decision making. The answer was a profound yes, he could have helped. But that would be acknowledging the elephant in the room.

    If you go back and look at all the talk when Pete canned Bevell, it was all about finding someone to be more heavy handed with Russell. Someone that would demand more pocket discipline from Russell and get him to step up in clean pockets instead of fleeing. Also someone that would be more critical when Russ made mistakes.. Schotty did just that early on. Somehow it devolved into the LRC movement and ended with Russell playing like he did to end the year last year. Who knows what went wrong between those 3, but I personally believe that Pete is Russell's biggest defender in the organization. If he wasn't, I think we would've seen Russell somewhere else when the last contract ended


    Yeah, Schottenheimer was known in every location he's been an OC as a guy that runs a tight ship and demands discipline. He also has a bit of a reputation as a QB guru. Drew Brees personally credited him as being the one that was responsible for elevating his game. At first under Schottenheimer, Wilson was forced to play a more traditional game. He started climbing the pocket and taking what he was given more frequently. Things started to go back to normal as time marched on. At first it was rough for Wilson but he was learning.

    I'm curious as to what went on between the three. Objectively our offense improved each year Schottenheimer was OC. I know Pete Carroll and Schottenheimer got into it with each other a few times. I heard stories of Carroll changing plays at the last minute. It also seems as time went on under Schottenheimer, Wilson started regressing to old habits. I'd be very curious to hear what went on behind the scenes. If we look at his playcalls too, they were actually the type of stuff that you would call to beat the defenses that showed up against Wilson, as shown by Kurt Warner. In fact, in those videos Warner was praising some of the play calls. Wilson just ignored the open receivers looking for something to open up deep.

    For as good as Wilson is, he seems to have a serious lack of fundamentals in some regards. Our QB is definitely a unique duck.



    The question is was it really Wilson or was PC in his head telling him to go back to Pete ball with his throws meaning chunk plays. W will never know but we do know in PCs own book he wants to run, get chunk plays in the passing game, meaning long throws, and he was to throw outside the numbers. So that means most of this is on PC. He created his Frankenstein.


    I think in the beginning it was both, started out more PC. He had a vision of the reliable game manager 'tannehill' type that he coveted. And so he had a Matt H and TJ that inm don't think he was necessarily satisfied with. Then he and John got the dude from GB, who looked to be capable of running a fairly sophisticated offense. He wasn't a knuckle dragging, turn and hand the ball of type... so i don't think in his heart of hearts, Pete is this primitive, offensive 'brain dead' HC. I think he tolerate aggressive play and play calling beyond the run game.

    But they got Wilson the same year. A guy who could tolerate the patchwork line and still make things happen, and one who had heart and a flare for the dramatic. They didn't get him because of his off the charts QB acumen. They got him because he would give it his all and because he above all was a winner. And I think got complacent and relied on that too much. And just as Russ doesn't seem as though he's wanting to improve, I also don't think Pete was asking him to, because russ was giving him and his defense everything they needed.

    So Russ fit the bill. Problem was neither actually took a step to actually become more than what they came into the league with. Russbstill does Russ, making amazing athletic football plays at QB, growing now into his own legend, and not improving year over year.

    Pete still believes in Defense and running. At times to a stubborn , foolish degree as wasbthe case against NO. But with Pete, I have to say he, for better or worse, relented and gave the reigns over entirely this year. He moved off of his spot tbis year and actually last year as well to see if 'the other way' that Russ was asking for could work. And honestly, if we'd have kept winning last year and shown to be at all capable of sustaining high level play, I think Pete woukd still be ok with it. I mean he's been ok with it this year despite the poor results.

    So in all, both have shared culpability. Pete to start, both over the last 6 years, but now... the stick that's stuck in the mud is Russ. Question is what Pete does about it.
    keasley45
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  • Announcers now calling out Russ for misses.

    Really sad to see as a Hawk fan and Russ fan.
    seabowl
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  • Yup.

    Was hoping the game tape was already posted but most likely won't be until tomorrow. Eager to look at a few plays
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:Yup.

    Was hoping the game tape was already posted but most likely won't be until tomorrow. Eager to look at a few plays

    I'd interested to know what he saw presnap that lead him to check into that double covered deep shot to DK
    OrangeGravy
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:Yup.

    Was hoping the game tape was already posted but most likely won't be until tomorrow. Eager to look at a few plays

    I'd interested to know what he saw presnap that lead him to check into that double covered deep shot to DK


    Ego and stardom.
    seabowl
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:Yup.

    Was hoping the game tape was already posted but most likely won't be until tomorrow. Eager to look at a few plays

    I'd interested to know what he saw presnap that lead him to check into that double covered deep shot to DK


    Likely the same thing he saw against GB that led to the throw to triple covered Lockett...

    He couldn't hit the X, Y or A button fast enough

    I swear, the more I watch him play, the more I'm reminded of how I used to play Madden. My fingers were never coordinated enough to hit the right wr who was open, so i would scramble around and heave the ball to the wr who'd run off the screen on a streak hoping the guy i was playing would switch to playing the CB covering that wr and screw up.
    keasley45
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  • Gais, Steph Curry, sucks. I have video evidence. He missed a wide open dunk, and then airballed a three.


    And I got plenty more where that came from. He's just not a great shooter, I'm going to post every single one of his misses the rest of the season. To show you how bad he truly is, and what everyone ISN'T seeing! /s LMAO.

    Look, Wilson has issues, and isn't playing well, but literally this can be done to any player you want, in any sport.

    Wilson's last 17 games, a much bigger sample size than a few cherry picked plays. (one of the worst stretches of his career: 67%, 31 Total TDs, 10 INTs.) The horror. Bear in mind the last 2 games really tank his numbers. You're acting like he is Jared Goff.

    Carroll would be lucky as hell to get that kind of production from the next guy. If Pete can't win with this level of production from Wilson. How the hell is he going to win with the next QB producing worse?


    On to some more lowlights.


    Aaron Rodgers playing hero ball again, forcing it. Had 2 guys open underneath but is just too short to see.


    Tom Brady throws 3 interceptions on 3 straight possessions in the NFCCG. Elite QBs don't do that. (Bucs would go on to win the game, and the Super Bowl.)


    Patty Mahomes: Interception Machine. Last Season.
    Fade
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  • Fade wrote:Gais, Steph Curry, sucks. I have video evidence. He missed a wide open dunk, and then airballed a three.


    And I got plenty more where that came from. He's just not a great shooter, I'm going to post every single one of his misses the rest of the season. To show you how bad he truly is, and what everyone ISN'T seeing! /s LMAO.

    Look, Wilson has issues, and isn't playing well, but literally this can be done to any player you want, in any sport.

    Wilson's last 17 games, a much bigger sample size than a few cherry picked plays. (one of the worst stretches of his career: 67%, 31 Total TDs, 10 INTs.) The horror. Bear in mind the last 2 games really tank his numbers. You're acting like he is Jared Goff.

    Carroll would be lucky as hell to get that kind of production from the next guy. If Pete can't win with this level of production from Wilson. How the hell is he going to win with the next QB producing worse?


    On to some more lowlights.


    Aaron Rodgers playing hero ball again, forcing it. Had 2 guys open underneath but is just too short to see.


    Tom Brady throws 3 interceptions on 3 straight possessions in the NFCCG. Elite QBs don't do that. (Bucs would go on to win the game, and the Super Bowl.)


    Patty Mahomes: Interception Machine. Last Season.


    Sorry but Rodgers, Brady and Mahomes have not looked nearly as bad as Wilson right now and I’m not talking about the physical part of the game. Remember the title of this thread.
    seabowl
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  • seabowl wrote:
    Fade wrote:Gais, Steph Curry, sucks. I have video evidence. He missed a wide open dunk, and then airballed a three.


    And I got plenty more where that came from. He's just not a great shooter, I'm going to post every single one of his misses the rest of the season. To show you how bad he truly is, and what everyone ISN'T seeing! /s LMAO.

    Look, Wilson has issues, and isn't playing well, but literally this can be done to any player you want, in any sport.

    Wilson's last 17 games, a much bigger sample size than a few cherry picked plays. (one of the worst stretches of his career: 67%, 31 Total TDs, 10 INTs.) The horror. Bear in mind the last 2 games really tank his numbers. You're acting like he is Jared Goff.

    Carroll would be lucky as hell to get that kind of production from the next guy. If Pete can't win with this level of production from Wilson. How the hell is he going to win with the next QB producing worse?


    On to some more lowlights.


    Aaron Rodgers playing hero ball again, forcing it. Had 2 guys open underneath but is just too short to see.


    Tom Brady throws 3 interceptions on 3 straight possessions in the NFCCG. Elite QBs don't do that. (Bucs would go on to win the game, and the Super Bowl.)


    Patty Mahomes: Interception Machine. Last Season.


    Sorry but Rodgers, Brady and Mahomes have not looked nearly as bad as Wilson right now and I’m not talking about the physical part of the game. Remember the title of this thread.


    Nice try making equivalencies with the anomalous bad play of athletes who have never had their greatness questioned because they consistently, year after year plays great.... and then plays poorly and seems incapable of doing simple things.

    Russel wilson is Steph Curry if Stephs entire game was the 50 footer, but would never shoot a 12 footer and missed 60% when he did.
    keasley45
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  • Hey Fade. Explain this one...

    https://youtu.be/E6BUU_FZAPE

    I'll save you some time. The synopsis- the Seahawks will never win a championship with Russel exhibiting this inability.

    Or this one

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq1NR9-zFig
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6BUU_FZAPE&t=1078s

    Because his stats say he's top 5 in the league that year.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnarei9FgGo&t=313s


    Again... this is the play of a statistically speaking, top 5 player at his position. And it's not just a bad game or two. This is him when he doesn't have the deep ball option. Which now, is every game.

    It's only cherry picking without supporting context.

    And the beginning of any trend can look like an anomaly. What you do if you actually care to figure out whether its a trend or just aberrant play, is you look back to see if it's happened before. And Russels entire career is lights out play when he has a scheme or supporting cast around him in a running game and defense..

    And then looking like he has no idea what he doing in games... stretches of games. Which is why there was MVP talk for 3 consecutive seasons and then each time he collapsed when defenses figured him out.

    Fact is, Russ has never had consistent, reliable play through an entire season. Take last year. Great completion percentage. Great TDs, great rating, and his ability to read defenses was horrid starting mid season and was the absolute worst it's ever been against the Rams in the playoffs when we needed him most.

    What about this season? Started out hot and was caving well before his injury. He hasn't played a complete game since week 2 and there, he completely crapped the bed in OT with the kind of play that marked last season and our games since. His 3rd down conversion bottom of the league before the injury. Offense's avg drive duration - league worst or near, before his injury. The only thing that saved us last year from falling off the cliff was Pete pulling the plug on the nonsense. And yet the irony this year is the Russel fanclub is actually justifying firing Pete be because he's not fixing it. Last year he fixed it the only way you can, you want him fired. This year Russel is hanging himself, and Pete should be fired because he's not doing anything?

    Ok...
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    seabowl wrote:
    Fade wrote:Gais, Steph Curry, sucks. I have video evidence. He missed a wide open dunk, and then airballed a three.


    And I got plenty more where that came from. He's just not a great shooter, I'm going to post every single one of his misses the rest of the season. To show you how bad he truly is, and what everyone ISN'T seeing! /s LMAO.

    Look, Wilson has issues, and isn't playing well, but literally this can be done to any player you want, in any sport.

    Wilson's last 17 games, a much bigger sample size than a few cherry picked plays. (one of the worst stretches of his career: 67%, 31 Total TDs, 10 INTs.) The horror. Bear in mind the last 2 games really tank his numbers. You're acting like he is Jared Goff.

    Carroll would be lucky as hell to get that kind of production from the next guy. If Pete can't win with this level of production from Wilson. How the hell is he going to win with the next QB producing worse?


    On to some more lowlights.


    Aaron Rodgers playing hero ball again, forcing it. Had 2 guys open underneath but is just too short to see.


    Tom Brady throws 3 interceptions on 3 straight possessions in the NFCCG. Elite QBs don't do that. (Bucs would go on to win the game, and the Super Bowl.)


    Patty Mahomes: Interception Machine. Last Season.


    Sorry but Rodgers, Brady and Mahomes have not looked nearly as bad as Wilson right now and I’m not talking about the physical part of the game. Remember the title of this thread.


    Nice try making equivalencies with the anomalous bad play of athletes who have never had their greatness questioned because they consistently, year after year plays great.... and then plays poorly and seems incapable of doing simple things.

    Russel wilson is Steph Curry if Stephs entire game was the 50 footer, but would never shoot a 12 footer and missed 60% when he did.


    And there's a fundamental difference in trying to concoct a narrative to MAKE someone look bad, vs trying to find evidence as to WHY they are looking bad.

    One paints a picture - your post
    The other reveals one - the purpose of this thread.
    keasley45
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  • So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105736_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly will run a seam, Everett will drift shallow left and Collins will be available out of the backfield, short right

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly breaks right through the line and is immediately open. The LB's don't even attempt to cover him up the middle. Russ reached his drop, Dissly obviously coming open if he anticpates it and has an open pocket to step into to the right, Collins is coming open in front of him.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105811_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Again, open pocket to the right in front of him. all he has to do is step forward and right and he avoids the rush. Dissly is still available, and Collins would be there and still could be with a flip of the ball.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105909_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Play ends in a sack.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105934_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Same from behind

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Drop reached, Dissly WIDE OPEN. Ball in Russ's hand

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110058_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    This is a split second after Russ has already decided to pull the ball down. Dissly is an easy win if he reads the fact that the LB's never even move to react to the pattern

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110116_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Russ never moves from his drop at the 41 yard line. never steps up to read the pressure. Sack.

    The next play is also a sack but this one is more a bust in protection by Homer. However, even with the bust, Russ of 2 years ago steps into the pocket , beats the lone rusher and makes the play
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
    keasley45
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  • Looks like he 1-read the DK route and when it wasn't open panicked and took the sack. Typical Russ. Do you have the screenshots on the PA shot to DK also that was double covered? Anything underneath that was open?
    Last edited by FloridaSeahawk18 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • keasley45 wrote:So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105736_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly will run a seam, Everett will drift shallow left and Collins will be available out of the backfield, short right

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly breaks right through the line and is immediately open. The LB's don't even attempt to cover him up the middle. Russ reached his drop, Dissly obviously coming open if he anticpates it and has an open pocket to step into to the right, Collins is coming open in front of him.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105811_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Again, open pocket to the right in front of him. all he has to do is step forward and right and he avoids the rush. Dissly is still available, and Collins would be there and still could be with a flip of the ball.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105909_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Play ends in a sack.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105934_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Same from behind

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Drop reached, Dissly WIDE OPEN. Ball in Russ's hand

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110058_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    This is a split second after Russ has already decided to pull the ball down. Dissly is an easy win if he reads the fact that the LB's never even move to react to the pattern

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110116_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Russ never moves from his drop at the 41 yard line. never steps up to read the pressure. Sack.

    The next play is also a sack but this one is more a bust in protection by Homer. However, even with the bust, Russ of 2 years ago steps into the pocket , beats the lone rusher and makes the play


    Dude your wrong again. Sure throw dissly open and he missed it right? However at that distance, both safeties sitting in cover 2 would be able to get to the ball. It wouldn't be a rope with linebackers underneath. It would have to have touch and again at that distance, both safeties arrive on top of dissly. He could have went underneath to Collins and stepped up yes. Shell could have also held his block. Chandler Jones could have went right or left on Shell. Hole isn't open that long.

    Dude you are narrowing in on russ when there are many other things going wrong.

    This one yes he should have put it in the left or right flat immediately.
    jamescasey1124
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  • Second sack. Arizona shows blitz and are overloading the right side. Seattle needs the Arizona 47 for a first down. The play as called has 3 wrs on hooks past the sticks. Given how this one plays out, my guess is that Homer was supposed to be an outlet but gets caught in between maybe running a quick out and picking up the blitzer

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110858_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110935_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Homer chips poorly and the rusher goes right by. Not Russ's fault and there's no other wr available to throw to. Why there are no crossing routes, i have no idea. maybe the plan was to get Homer one on one underneath? You can make the argument the play should have been changed, but Arizona showed blitz and then dropped. Lockett might have had an option to cross but chose to run hi deep hook. And Russ doesnt step up again likely because he sees the LB in front of him, albeit well off the play.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-111011_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Sack

    Same from behind

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-111308_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    The key failure is Homer.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-111321_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Russ's aversion to stepping up is a trend now through multiple weeks going back to week 2 and last year. But again, he shouldnt have had pressure this quickly. But the step up is there.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-111332_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Instead of riding up, he fades left and is sacked. Again, not his fault.
    keasley45
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.



    Dude your wrong again. Sure throw dissly open and he missed it right? However at that distance, both safeties sitting in cover 2 would be able to get to the ball. It wouldn't be a rope with linebackers underneath. It would have to have touch and again at that distance, both safeties arrive on top of dissly. He could have went underneath to Collins and stepped up yes. Shell could have also held his block. Chandler Jones could have went right or left on Shell. Hole isn't open that long.

    Dude you are narrowing in on russ when there are many other things going wrong.

    This one yes he should have put it in the left or right flat immediately.


    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??

    At the point this snap is taken, it was obvious Dissly was coming open. Plainly. And at this point the throw is 20 yards. And there's one safety deep that has zero chance to make the play, the other is covering the opposite wr.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105811_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    The safety to Dissly's right has his back turned to him, and even here, the only guy that could possibly make a play on Dissly is the Ref. The safety to Dissly's right is flat footed and not reacting. And there'e no LB to throw over, so Russ could have literally thrown his fastball or put air under it.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    There isnt an elite or even good QB in this league that doesnt see this as open and make the throw...

    Have literally no idea WHAT you're talking about.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.



    Dude your wrong again. Sure throw dissly open and he missed it right? However at that distance, both safeties sitting in cover 2 would be able to get to the ball. It wouldn't be a rope with linebackers underneath. It would have to have touch and again at that distance, both safeties arrive on top of dissly. He could have went underneath to Collins and stepped up yes. Shell could have also held his block. Chandler Jones could have went right or left on Shell. Hole isn't open that long.

    Dude you are narrowing in on russ when there are many other things going

    This one yes he should have put it in the left or right flat immediately.


    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??


    Yes exactly. Look at your third or fourth frame and then look where safeties are equally on each side of dissly. Russ drops that in with time and distance of throw. Safeties can open there hips and get there.

    He could have throw Collins quick right or whoever that is left flat if he got it out quick enough.
    jamescasey1124
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.



    Dude your wrong again. Sure throw dissly open and he missed it right? However at that distance, both safeties sitting in cover 2 would be able to get to the ball. It wouldn't be a rope with linebackers underneath. It would have to have touch and again at that distance, both safeties arrive on top of dissly. He could have went underneath to Collins and stepped up yes. Shell could have also held his block. Chandler Jones could have went right or left on Shell. Hole isn't open that long.

    Dude you are narrowing in on russ when there are many other things going

    This one yes he should have put it in the left or right flat immediately.


    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??


    Yes exactly. Look at your third or fourth frame and then look where safeties are equally on each side of dissly. Russ drops that in with time and distance of throw. Safeties can open there hips and get there.

    He could have throw Collins quick right or whoever that is left flat if he got it out quick enough.


    he couldnt have thrown to Collins quick right because he didnt come open until just before a stationary Russ was sacked.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
    keasley45
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:So, looking at the Arizona game. Didnt have to wait long to see the same tendencies Russel showed the week before.



    Dude your wrong again. Sure throw dissly open and he missed it right? However at that distance, both safeties sitting in cover 2 would be able to get to the ball. It wouldn't be a rope with linebackers underneath. It would have to have touch and again at that distance, both safeties arrive on top of dissly. He could have went underneath to Collins and stepped up yes. Shell could have also held his block. Chandler Jones could have went right or left on Shell. Hole isn't open that long.

    Dude you are narrowing in on russ when there are many other things going

    This one yes he should have put it in the left or right flat immediately.


    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??


    Yes exactly. Look at your third or fourth frame and then look where safeties are equally on each side of dissly. Russ drops that in with time and distance of throw. Safeties can open there hips and get there.

    He could have throw Collins quick right or whoever that is left flat if he got it out quick enough.


    Bro, circle it and tell me what youre talking about. theres a flat footed saftety left, and a saftey right not covering Dissly, because hes doubling Metcalf.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly's head is turned because he's expecting the ball because he knows and sees that this play is WIDE OPEN. He gives the QB a target and the QB holds the ball.

    And i'm not zeroing in on Russ because i plainly say the next play wasnt his fault.

    This was open by any NFL QBs standard.

    In this frame, there's no defender in frame 20 yards in front of Dissly, 15 yards left, and 10 yards right that could make the play. Hes already split the LBers and the only safety capable of making the play isnt even moving toward him at thie point.
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:


    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??


    Yes exactly. Look at your third or fourth frame and then look where safeties are equally on each side of dissly. Russ drops that in with time and distance of throw. Safeties can open there hips and get there.

    He could have throw Collins quick right or whoever that is left flat if he got it out quick enough.


    Bro, circle it and tell me what youre talking about. theres a flat footed saftety left, and a saftey right not covering Dissly.


    It's the one you put big circle in middle between two safeties now facing where dissly is the threat. To bad by that time russ is basically sacked anyway. Wouldn't have mattered. Dissly was clearly his focus the whole time. Other wise he would have seen sack coming and dumped to Collins.

    I cant circle it. Never used flicker and these are your pics
    jamescasey1124
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  • keasley45 wrote:ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly's head is turned because he's expecting the ball because he knows and sees that this play is WIDE OPEN. He gives the QB a target and the QB holds the ball.

    And i'm not zeroing in on Russ because i plainly say the next play wasnt his fault.

    This was open by any NFL QBs standard.

    In this frame, there's no defender in frame 20 yards in front of Dissly, 15 yards left, and 10 yards right that could make the play. Hes already split the LBers and the only safety capable of making the play isnt even moving toward him at thie point.


    The only way this one works is a laser to dissly so lb going to cover Collins doesn't turn back. Safeties are closer than you think. Budda is hella rangy.

    Plus linebacker is going hook back at 45 degrees and not immediately coming down onto Collins. He is playing in between. Which looks like he is helping with dissly.
    jamescasey1124
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:
    Let me make sure i understand you.

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105755_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    On this play, the safetie(s) have this play sniffed out? And its too long of a throw to remain open??


    Yes exactly. Look at your third or fourth frame and then look where safeties are equally on each side of dissly. Russ drops that in with time and distance of throw. Safeties can open there hips and get there.

    He could have throw Collins quick right or whoever that is left flat if he got it out quick enough.


    Bro, circle it and tell me what youre talking about. theres a flat footed saftety left, and a saftey right not covering Dissly.


    It's the one you put big circle in middle between two safeties now facing where dissly is the threat. To bad by that time russ is basically sacked anyway. Wouldn't have mattered. Dissly was clearly his focus the whole time. Other wise he would have seen sack coming and dumped to Collins.

    I cant circle it. Never used flicker and these are your pics


    You can download them.

    In the exact frame you mention, the safety to the right has his back turned to Dissly and continues away from Dissly the whole time. Click on the image and look more closely. And again. The safety left doesnt move. This isnt even close to NOT being open. And Russ could have made the play before the sack. He sees Dissly right away and doesnt throw. Simple anticipation.

    And even with pressure, if Russ steps up and buys another second, Dissly is STILL open. But that wasnt even necessary. the play was there.
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:ImageScreenshot_20211124-110037_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    Dissly's head is turned because he's expecting the ball because he knows and sees that this play is WIDE OPEN. He gives the QB a target and the QB holds the ball.

    And i'm not zeroing in on Russ because i plainly say the next play wasnt his fault.

    This was open by any NFL QBs standard.

    In this frame, there's no defender in frame 20 yards in front of Dissly, 15 yards left, and 10 yards right that could make the play. Hes already split the LBers and the only safety capable of making the play isnt even moving toward him at thie point.


    The only way this one works is a laser to dissly so lb going to cover Collins doesn't turn back. Safeties are closer than you think. Budda is hella rangy.

    Plus linebacker is going hook back at 45 degrees and not immediately coming down onto Collins. He is playing in between. Which looks like he is helping with dissly.


    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105909_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    A laser to Dissly? this is the end of the play and still theres no-one close to him. ACtually i was wrong earlier. The safety left that you claim would make the play is back pedaling left to double Lockett. You act as though he was open for a split second and then was covered up. theres no-one there., LOL he was never covered and Russ had a lane to hit him, easy. There was no LB hovering under the play. . theres one who blew his assignment on Dissly and another alread well out of the way running right to cover Collins. But then again maybe thats the problem. Rodgers doesnt miss this play. Brady doesnt miss it, or mahomes, or Dak... this is an obvious play and the defense is that it was too hard. It was obvioulsy too hard for Russ, but shouldnt be.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • OrangeGravy wrote:
    keasley45 wrote:Yup.

    Was hoping the game tape was already posted but most likely won't be until tomorrow. Eager to look at a few plays

    I'd interested to know what he saw presnap that lead him to check into that double covered deep shot to DK


    The one where Metcalf dropped that was right in his hands? He probably saw his 6' 4" WR having an advantage over smaller secondary guys and wanted to give him a chance to make a play. Ball was right there and he dropped it like he does so many other times. If he would have caught the ball like he should, the play wouldnt even be brought up.
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  • Omg no. You are going back and forth between your pics.
    Throw with anticipation and safety will turn and drop on it because it is not going to be a laser. Both safeties are watching russ the whole time.

    The laser I'm talking about is the pic from behind russ showing dissly going open in-between three linebackers. A laser may work there because lb going to cover Collins is breaking back and out.

    You loft the pass over the lbs I gurantee you one safety drops onto it which is what happened. Safety right was going deep and stopped, turned and faced russ leaning toward middle pass to dissly. The safety your calling flat footed is going deep with lockett, but also leaning middle pass on dissly while back pedaling.

    Your underrating coverages and game speeds of players on a freeze frame.

    The whole time russ is looking dissly...doesn't see Collins and doesn't see blitz from right. Chandler got there in an instant. However, Russ could have gone second or third read and got ball out. Dissly was not open. Your talking one te in the middle of 5(3 lbs and 2 safeties).
    jamescasey1124
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:Omg no. You are going back and forth between your pics.
    Throw with anticipation and safety will turn and drop on it because it is not going to be a laser. Both safeties are watching russ the whole time.

    The laser I'm talking about is the pic from behind russ showing dissly going open in-between three linebackers. A laser may work there because lb going to cover Collins is breaking back and out.

    You loft the pass over the lbs I gurantee you one safety drops onto it which is what happened. Safety right was going deep and stopped, turned and faced russ leaning toward middle pass to dissly. The safety your calling flat footed is going deep with lockett, but also leaning middle pass on dissly while back pedaling.

    Your underrating coverages and game speeds of players on a freeze frame.

    The whole time russ is looking dissly...doesn't see Collins and doesn't see blitz from right. Chandler got there in an instant. However, Russ could have gone second or third read and got ball out. Dissly was not open. Your talking one te in the middle of 5(3 lbs and 2 safeties).


    Bro, i put in yellow arrows to show you where the safeties went. They were moving away from the play the entire time. AWAY. There's NO way on God's green earth that either of those safeties make the play. They would have to literally be not of this earth to do so. Its not physically possible. They are dropping to outside coverage leaving WHAT wide open? The middle.

    The safeties were fading backward at nearly the same pace Dissly was running forward. Scroll to the top. Im not underrating anything. If the play was as close to being covered as you claim i wouldnt even had called it out.
    Last edited by keasley45 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • ImageScreenshot_20211124-105811_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    I added more arrows and bubbles to show you the assignments the safeties had on this play that they were committed to and were obvious the entire time. They were covering the areas of the field Russ goes 99% of the time regardless of the read... DK and Lockett outside and leaving the middle open.

    Dissly has covered 17 yards. The only safety capable of making the play has dropped 11 and is still dropping

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105909_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    This is as close as that safety would have been if the ball was thrown to Dissly if the ball was released when Dissly was 17 yards down field. This is of course hypothetical because the play was over by then. point being a safety running backward and outside wouldnt have had an angle to make this play at any point the pass could have been completed.
    keasley45
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  • keasley45 wrote:ImageScreenshot_20211124-105811_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    I added more arrows and bubbles to show you the assignments the safeties had on this play that they were committed to and were obvious the entire time. They were covering the areas of the field Russ goes 99% of the time regardless of the read... DK and Lockett outside and leaving the middle open.

    Dissly has covered 17 yards. The only safety capable of making the play has dropped 11 and is still dropping

    ImageScreenshot_20211124-105909_Chrome by J_Otte, on Flickr

    This is as close as that safety would have been if the ball was thrown to Dissly if the ball was released when Dissly was 17 yards down field. This is of course hypothetical because the play was over by then. point being a safety running backward and outside wouldnt have had an angle to make this play at any point the pass could have been completed.


    So you ate saying they can't plant there foot and get to the ball in time for that throw? Deep safety is maybe five yards off hash where dissly is and other safety is probably 8 yards off opposite hash...your saying they wouldn't get there?

    Also...what was time from snap to sack?
    Last edited by jamescasey1124 on Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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