We're sorry, Tical. You were right, please forgive us, Tical

Tical21

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Took a lot of crap from a lot of people on here for a lotta years. Bit my lip knowing eventually everything I've been saying for years would be apparent to everyone. DO YOU HEAR ME NOW!!>!>!>

#3 never mastered the mental part of playing quarterback, which was always going to be needed when his legs couldn't create magic anymore. Now his ego prevents us from running, which ironically is the one thing that would help him most.

We've been seeing 2-deep almost exclusively for a year now. And have we executed even simple cover-2 concepts? At all? Hmmmm, why not? 3 coordinators now. Same results.

Who is gonna line up first? Fade? Seymour? Soulfish? All a y'all can see me.
 

Flyingsquad23

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I love a fan that gloats about predicting gloomy days…congratulations on being the smartest
 

chris98251

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Very simple, take away the keys to the Ferrari and give Wilson the keys to the Pinto, no more audible except specific ones in obvious situations.

Run the play called and hit the routes called.

Pete fix your defense leave the offense alone.

Pete go back to what you did well, adjust to the players strengths rather then your system, you did it early here, do it now.

Sounds so simple, not sure what gets in the way of this other then fear of Wilson leaving, well losing won't keep him here either. Maybe he will learn something and embrace it with wins? Or he checks out and we'll have a high cost bench player for a year or Trade.

Doesn't matter, we will not go anywhere with the present mentality and culture in play.

At least changing now we will know how Wilson will fit with hard coaching which is what the next guy will have to do anyway.
 

John63

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Flyingsquad23":350xlgrq said:
I love a fan that gloats about predicting gloomy days…congratulations on being the smartest


Hey he had to wait 9+ years and an Injury to say it. And as before when Wilson has a bad game or 2 he will disappear when he gets back to his usual HOF self. It's called trolling qe have alot of them.
 

TwistedHusky

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Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.
 

chris98251

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TwistedHusky":39e8mxps said:
Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.

He also was much more restricted a large portion of those years and Pete used his abilities in the 4th and the rest of the time it was eat clock with the run and mostly short passing game using a defense to control what the other team wanted to do, dictating is a better word.

Now we have Russell with all the tools he needs except a all pro line, he has decent maybe not great RB's, exceptional WR's a good group of TE's yet we struggle. Three coordinators, we started seeing trouble with the end of Bevells time here, Schotty had a success rate early but then we went back to what we see today and at the end of Bevells time, Waldron comes in and we see a completely different offense with the Colts and never again till Geno got in and even then it wasn't long before we drifted away from it even when he was playing. But not completely ignore it, Geno hit guys mid field, we didn't support him with a run game as well.
 

John63

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TwistedHusky":1qai0nt1 said:
Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.


This^^^^
 

OrangeGravy

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chris98251":1ouzpavy said:
TwistedHusky":1ouzpavy said:
Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.

He also was much more restricted a large portion of those years and Pete used his abilities in the 4th and the rest of the time it was eat clock with the run and mostly short passing game using a defense to control what the other team wanted to do, dictating is a better word.

Now we have Russell with all the tools he needs except a all pro line, he has decent maybe not great RB's, exceptional WR's a good group of TE's yet we struggle. Three coordinators, we started seeing trouble with the end of Bevells time here, Schotty had a success rate early but then we went back to what we see today and at the end of Bevells time, Waldron comes in and we see a completely different offense with the Colts and never again till Geno got in and even then it wasn't long before we drifted away from it even when he was playing. But not completely ignore it, Geno hit guys mid field, we didn't support him with a run game as well.
The big disconnect offensively is that Russell needs an offense thats run heavy. Everyone in the building knows this except Russell. The reason last season started off so hot was DCs started out game planning against Carson and Seattle's 'reputation ' of being run first, even though we havent been that for a while. Once we showed heavy pass tendencies, everyone stopped respecting the run completely because we proved that even it worked, we wouldn't stick with it. All of Russell's successes have come on PA or broken plays. The PA corner route to Lockett is the fallback. Teams pretty much take that awY anymore and Russell doesn't shake free as frequently now. That offense is like a 2 1/2 legged dog out there now
 

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This was gonna happen. I’m glad! On the fence is worse. Making the playoffs but without a real shot to win it all means you’re stuck in neutral. Can’t get high draft picks to bolster the future but can’t truly pull the rip cord yet and change the philosophy and blow up the core so boom. Locked in spiral of mediocre survival year after year. Well the doldrums are far more brutal. Your boat won’t sink in the calm waters so it’s hard to know what to do. Now the winds picked up and blew the boat over but at least it’s obvious now that the boat isn’t built right. Falling is the first step to getting back up again. Not this season but maybe it will bring meaningful change we ALL so desperately want to see. Enjoy the ride!
 
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Tical21

Tical21

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Another system? You're aware this is our third system in the past five years, and all have been very diverse, yeah? Bevell was a WCO, Schotty was power run, Waldron a bit more misdirection, but all quite different systems.

He DID NOT do these things earlier in his career. I've been waiting and waiting for him to execute core concepts his whole career, which I've written about dozens and dozens of times here over his career.

His strength WAS throwing on the run accurately. He no longer has the freakish athleticism that was once his hallmark, so we're stuck with the version that doesn't know how to execute against 2-deep zone coverages, and can't extend the plays long enough for these zones to collapse.

No matter what system you run, against a 2-deep zone, it eventually is going to come down to executing core 2-deep zone concepts. These include but are not limited to: flood/smash (we can't execute this because Russ refuses to hit the corner route over a rolled corner), dagger (this is literally wide open multiple times every game but Russ refuses to throw it because he is scared of the LB), some kind of levels concept (which we can't use because Russ can't see).

When there is a 2-deep zone, this suggests you'll have a light box to run against. Most quarterbacks will just check to a run. But Russell refuses to do so. Hello, ego. So, lately, we've been looking for our deep concepts, which usually aren't there or Russ forces anyways, or Russ tries to buy time until something comes open, which he isn't great at.

So if you're Waldron, what do you do? Bottom line, we can't do anything until Russell starts checking to run. But he thinks he's Mahomes, so that won't happen. Teams have adjusted to Russell, and solved him. Instead of evolving as a player, he's decided instead to try to double-down and try to will his stuff to work. Week after week. Just banging that square peg into the round hole. Over, and over, and over again.
 

Fade

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I appreciate the gloat, but you'll need a much bigger sample size. I'll never understand how people jump to conclusions. Imagine sitting there watching the games, season after season with this kind of confirmation bias, as Wilson is stacking probowls & wins year after year, waiting… biding your time for that "Aha! See I told you so!" moment.

Problem. Elite QBs go through bad streches in their careers, it happens. Wilson, incredibly has been one of the few to avoid it for the most part. Rodgers was playing like Alex Smith for the better part of 3 years in his mid 30's. It took ousting Mike McCarthy and bringing in a new coach, and he actually got worse. Then in year 2 with that same new coach he popped and won another MVP.

Brady's last year in New England, people called him done. Mahomes has been in a funk dating back to last year. But unlike Pete, Andy Reed doesn't shut the offense down and turtle up, he stays aggressive and continues to battle through it. Because he understands the bigger picture, and the rewards that will come when he finally breaks through. Pete would handle Mahomes the opposite. Shut everything down, play the field position game, and hope you can win it in the 4th.

Pete has impeded Russell Wilson's development over the course of his career. But even with that, stack up Wilson's numbers over the last 50 games against anyone. He is better statistically or right there with anyone you want to name. While doing it behind lower ranked O-Lines, with an outdated defensive coach that has the reigns pulled tight for large stretches of the game, with mediocre to bad running games, and with only 1 or 2 viable receiving targets at most over that time.

Pete's plan is to rope-a-dope the opponent for 3 quarters, and then bring in the Russell magic and try to win it in the 4th. Well, what happens when the QB is injured and not himself, or you're playing with a backup? Pete has no idea, he doesn't have any answers.

But all of this is moot. Wilson clearly is done with Pete, they are getting a divorce. He wants to be with an offensive head coach. Whether that is here or elsewhere. Wilson will bounce back, eventually. Whether that is in a month, next season, or the season after. Pete will not, he is done. And the longer he stays the worse it's going to get.
 
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Tical21

Tical21

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OrangeGravy":3sc3ipqn said:
chris98251":3sc3ipqn said:
TwistedHusky":3sc3ipqn said:
Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.

He also was much more restricted a large portion of those years and Pete used his abilities in the 4th and the rest of the time it was eat clock with the run and mostly short passing game using a defense to control what the other team wanted to do, dictating is a better word.

Now we have Russell with all the tools he needs except a all pro line, he has decent maybe not great RB's, exceptional WR's a good group of TE's yet we struggle. Three coordinators, we started seeing trouble with the end of Bevells time here, Schotty had a success rate early but then we went back to what we see today and at the end of Bevells time, Waldron comes in and we see a completely different offense with the Colts and never again till Geno got in and even then it wasn't long before we drifted away from it even when he was playing. But not completely ignore it, Geno hit guys mid field, we didn't support him with a run game as well.
The big disconnect offensively is that Russell needs an offense thats run heavy. Everyone in the building knows this except Russell. The reason last season started off so hot was DCs started out game planning against Carson and Seattle's 'reputation ' of being run first, even though we havent been that for a while. Once we showed heavy pass tendencies, everyone stopped respecting the run completely because we proved that even it worked, we wouldn't stick with it. All of Russell's successes have come on PA or broken plays. The PA corner route to Lockett is the fallback. Teams pretty much take that awY anymore and Russell doesn't shake free as frequently now. That offense is like a 2 1/2 legged dog out there now
+1
 
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Tical21

Tical21

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Fade":11meyepe said:
I appreciate the gloat, but you'll need a much bigger sample size. I'll never understand how people jump to conclusions. Imagine sitting there watching the games, season after season with this kind of confirmation bias, as Wilson is stacking probowls & wins year after year, waiting… biding your time for that "Aha! See I told you so!" moment.

Problem. Elite QBs go through bad streches in their careers, it happens. Wilson, incredibly has been one of the few to avoid it for the most part. Rodgers was playing like Alex Smith for the better part of 3 years in his mid 30's. It took ousting Mike McCarthy and bringing in a new coach, and he actually got worse. Then in year 2 with that same new coach he popped and won another MVP.

Brady's last year in New England, people called him done. Mahomes has been in a funk dating back to last year. But unlike Pete, Andy Reed doesn't shut the offense down and turtle up, he stays aggressive and continues to battle through it. Because he understands the bigger picture, and the rewards that will come when he finally breaks through. Pete would handle Mahomes the opposite. Shut everything down, play the field position game, and hope you can win it in the 4th.

Pete has impeded Russell Wilson's development over the course of his career. But even with that, stack up Wilson's numbers over the last 50 games against anyone. He is better statistically or right there with anyone you want to name. While doing it behind lower ranked O-Lines, with an outdated defensive coach that has the reigns pulled tight for large stretches of the game, with mediocre to bad running games, and with only 1 or 2 viable receiving targets at most over that time.

Pete's plan is to rope-a-dope the opponent for 3 quarters, and then bring in the Russell magic and try to win it in the 4th. Well, what happens when the QB is injured and not himself, or you're playing with a backup? Pete has no idea, he doesn't have any answers.

But all of this is moot. Wilson clearly is done with Pete, they are getting a divorce. He wants to be with an offensive head coach. Whether that is here or elsewhere. Wilson will bounce back, eventually. Whether that is in a month, next season, or the season after. Pete will not, he is done. And the longer he stays the worse it's going to get.
Now this is just disingenuous. I've been telling you for years that the biggest reason for Russell's success was our insistence on running the football, which for the first 9 years of his career gave Russell single-high, simpler coverages. Coverages that allowed him to leverage his greatest strength, which is that he's the most accurate deep ball passer in the history of the game. Your failure was thinking this would translate if we decided to pass more, and pass into more 2-deep and disguised coverages. If we stop playing "Pete Ball" and just "Let Russ Cook".

It doesn't work when the opposing team doesn't worry about the running game and instead takes away the deep ball. It just doesn't. See the ugly picks, trying to desperately push the ball down the field? They aren't scared of anything anymore besides getting beat over the top. These picks come because you can't execute core concepts properly, so you have to throw desperation passes instead. You really think Russell is going to re-invent himself and figure out how to execute at this point in his career? Bottom line, Russell Wilson is DONE being a successful quarterback in this league, unless he allows himself to play off of the running game again. Period. He's been solved.

I've told you all this was going to happen. I told you all we didn't want to go to a pass-first offense because Russell doesn't execute like that. I told you all he wasn't Patrick Mahomes. Now that you're seeing it with your own eyes in a way that is impossible to hide from, you're still blaming Pete? Really? For doing what? You're on the wrong side of this one my friend, and you've been on the wrong side of it for a long time. And if you're unwilling to admit that after what we've seen for a year now, there's no point continuing this debate any further. You're just making stuff up and doubling down against all evidence at this point.
 

John63

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Fade":xsf7usxy said:
I appreciate the gloat, but you'll need a much bigger sample size. I'll never understand how people jump to conclusions. Imagine sitting there watching the games, season after season with this kind of confirmation bias, as Wilson is stacking probowls & wins year after year, waiting… biding your time for that "Aha! See I told you so!" moment.

Problem. Elite QBs go through bad streches in their careers, it happens. Wilson, incredibly has been one of the few to avoid it for the most part. Rodgers was playing like Alex Smith for the better part of 3 years in his mid 30's. It took ousting Mike McCarthy and bringing in a new coach, and he actually got worse. Then in year 2 with that same new coach he popped and won another MVP.

Brady's last year in New England, people called him done. Mahomes has been in a funk dating back to last year. But unlike Pete, Andy Reed doesn't shut the offense down and turtle up, he stays aggressive and continues to battle through it. Because he understands the bigger picture, and the rewards that will come when he finally breaks through. Pete would handle Mahomes the opposite. Shut everything down, play the field position game, and hope you can win it in the 4th.

Pete has impeded Russell Wilson's development over the course of his career. But even with that, stack up Wilson's numbers over the last 50 games against anyone. He is better statistically or right there with anyone you want to name. While doing it behind lower ranked O-Lines, with an outdated defensive coach that has the reigns pulled tight for large stretches of the game, with mediocre to bad running games, and with only 1 or 2 viable receiving targets at most over that time.

Pete's plan is to rope-a-dope the opponent for 3 quarters, and then bring in the Russell magic and try to win it in the 4th. Well, what happens when the QB is injured and not himself, or you're playing with a backup? Pete has no idea, he doesn't have any answers.

But all of this is moot. Wilson clearly is done with Pete, they are getting a divorce. He wants to be with an offensive head coach. Whether that is here or elsewhere. Wilson will bounce back, eventually. Whether that is in a month, next season, or the season after. Pete will not, he is done. And the longer he stays the worse it's going to get.


This^^^^^
 

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Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
Another system? You're aware this is our third system in the past five years, and all have been very diverse, yeah? Bevell was a WCO, Schotty was power run, Waldron a bit more misdirection, but all quite different systems..

Nope. They all conform to Pete. They didn't change the offense when Schotty came, as confirmed by Pete.
Waldron was de-nutted very quickly. Watch the week 1 Colts game and compare it to what it is now.

Three different sock puppets, that add a little of the flavor over the top, but aren't allowed to cook the meal are not 3 different systems.

Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
He DID NOT do these things earlier in his career. I've been waiting and waiting for him to execute core concepts his whole career, which I've written about dozens and dozens of times here over his career.

He loves Sprint Right Option (anything rollout really.) Waggle. Mesh, (anything involving crossers really, including deep over.) Double Seam.

Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
His strength WAS throwing on the run accurately. He no longer has the freakish athleticism that was once his hallmark, so we're stuck with the version that doesn't know how to execute against 2-deep zone coverages, and can't extend the plays long enough for these zones to collapse.

It's still his strength. He is completing 85% of his passes at 13.9 YPA on playaction & rollouts before the AZ game. They went away from it for whatever reason, instead choosing to go back to the sitting duck offense behind one the worst pass blocking O-Lines in the NFL.

Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
No matter what system you run, against a 2-deep zone, it eventually is going to come down to executing core 2-deep zone concepts. These include but are not limited to: flood/smash (we can't execute this because Russ refuses to hit the corner route over a rolled corner), dagger (this is literally wide open multiple times every game but Russ refuses to throw it because he is scared of the LB), some kind of levels concept (which we can't use because Russ can't see).

You have to take the Drew Brees approach which is Seams and Screens. And build a top 5 offensive line, especially on the interior, to assist with your diminutive QBs sight-lines. Pete never got the memo. And generally how they are supposed to be built as told by Pete Carroll, but aren't, is to run the ball down their throat. Asking any offensive coach what is the best approach against a 2 high defense and it is to run them out of it.

Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
When there is a 2-deep zone, this suggests you'll have a light box to run against. Most quarterbacks will just check to a run. But Russell refuses to do so. Hello, ego. So, lately, we've been looking for our deep concepts, which usually aren't there or Russ forces anyways, or Russ tries to buy time until something comes open, which he isn't great at.
He checks to runs all of the time against 2 High. But they don't have the backs or the O-Line to consistently punish teams for cheating. They get behind the sticks and they have no choice but to throw.

Tical21":sw63lqbq said:
So if you're Waldron, what do you do? Bottom line, we can't do anything until Russell starts checking to run. But he thinks he's Mahomes, so that won't happen. Teams have adjusted to Russell, and solved him. Instead of evolving as a player, he's decided instead to try to double-down and try to will his stuff to work. Week after week. Just banging that square peg into the round hole. Over, and over, and over again.

If you're Waldon, go back to running the offense from week 1. Where they motioned on most of their plays, used all areas of the field in the passing game. Featured outside zone runs with Wilson under center and booting off of it, which got the D-Lineman going sideways instead of pinning their ears back and going straight ahead.
 

pittpnthrs

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Fade":2pnpa9m0 said:
He checks to runs all of the time against 2 High. But they don't have the backs or the O-Line to consistently punish teams for cheating. They get behind the sticks and they have no choice but to throw.

This. I keep hearing run the ball more, but its hard when you cant.
 

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Tical21":2sxz5ch8 said:
So if you're Waldron, what do you do? Bottom line, we can't do anything until Russell starts checking to run. But he thinks he's Mahomes, so that won't happen. Teams have adjusted to Russell, and solved him. Instead of evolving as a player, he's decided instead to try to double-down and try to will his stuff to work. Week after week. Just banging that square peg into the round hole. Over, and over, and over again.
You actually wrote "Teams have adjusted to Russell, and solved him"? :34853_doh:

Credibility issues when you dust off that old trope.
 

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For all those criticizing Tical here, keep that same energy on the next Tokadub thread where he puts an entire paragraph of his old "PREDICTIONS" in bold. Should be around 3 of them this week.
 

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Fade":g1d3f1zx said:
I appreciate the gloat, but you'll need a much bigger sample size. I'll never understand how people jump to conclusions. Imagine sitting there watching the games, season after season with this kind of confirmation bias, as Wilson is stacking probowls & wins year after year, waiting… biding your time for that "Aha! See I told you so!" moment.

Problem. Elite QBs go through bad streches in their careers, it happens. Wilson, incredibly has been one of the few to avoid it for the most part. Rodgers was playing like Alex Smith for the better part of 3 years in his mid 30's. It took ousting Mike McCarthy and bringing in a new coach, and he actually got worse. Then in year 2 with that same new coach he popped and won another MVP.

Brady's last year in New England, people called him done. Mahomes has been in a funk dating back to last year. But unlike Pete, Andy Reed doesn't shut the offense down and turtle up, he stays aggressive and continues to battle through it. Because he understands the bigger picture, and the rewards that will come when he finally breaks through. Pete would handle Mahomes the opposite. Shut everything down, play the field position game, and hope you can win it in the 4th.

Pete has impeded Russell Wilson's development over the course of his career. But even with that, stack up Wilson's numbers over the last 50 games against anyone. He is better statistically or right there with anyone you want to name. While doing it behind lower ranked O-Lines, with an outdated defensive coach that has the reigns pulled tight for large stretches of the game, with mediocre to bad running games, and with only 1 or 2 viable receiving targets at most over that time.

Pete's plan is to rope-a-dope the opponent for 3 quarters, and then bring in the Russell magic and try to win it in the 4th. Well, what happens when the QB is injured and not himself, or you're playing with a backup? Pete has no idea, he doesn't have any answers.

But all of this is moot. Wilson clearly is done with Pete, they are getting a divorce. He wants to be with an offensive head coach. Whether that is here or elsewhere. Wilson will bounce back, eventually. Whether that is in a month, next season, or the season after. Pete will not, he is done. And the longer he stays the worse it's going to get.

You just did exactly the same thing with Mahomes in the NFL forum, gloating about being ahead of the curve and saying you'd take Tannehill and Wilson over him. Come on now.
 

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TwistedHusky":3ud2uhob said:
Not sure I agree until I see Wilson in another system.

What I do know is that Wilson DID all these things earlier in his career. He is not incapable.

But his great strength is throwing on the run accurately.

That we choose not leverage it is on us.

That said, I've basically been predicting this slow-motion car crash since the SB loss.

What is the point of being right?

Wilson did just fine for years, that wasn't the problem.

Even though he is having issues this year, that is not an indictment of his ability or acumen given his track record of success.


Wilson never did the things he's still not capable of now. It's just that before, it seemed like Pete was just playing Peteball - ugly offense that Russ woukd save at the end by not executing the play and running around long enough for players to be open. The only other thing Bevel could do within the play scheme to get things out of Russ's hands was Lynch. Or a bubble screen.

Cmon folks, if he's only but this good now, wouldn't it stand to reason that he's still better now than he was in year 2? Show me one qb that got worse at reading defenses over his career than better. That argument is entirely illogical. What you always hear is that QBs who play beyond their physical attributes dwindling usually succeed because the game slows down for them, they've seen every defense a million times and can compensate for lower velocity or mobility by making the read faster. Russ, finger or not, STILL can't beat cover 2. That's a pretty simple defense and as we've seen, we call plays that beat it almost every down.

The denial is on par with the OJ trial back in the day.

And you don't need to see russ on another team. All you have to do is look at the tape. Changing the uniforms isn't going to change his play. This isn't physics 3 and calculus 5 level stuff. It's basic multiplication tables.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=E6BUU_FZAPE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq1NR9-zFig

Just pretend he's wearing black and gold or whatever color you want...

The plays work. The qb doesn't.

The 35 minutes of proof above are all before his bent finger. And frankly it doesn't matter if schotty called those plays, russ did, or Pete meddled. They all worked and russ missed them then just like he does every game.
 
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