Interesting video breaking down the offense/Russ

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
3,865
Reaction score
6,776
Location
Cockeysville, Md
OrangeGravy":1fnmb1fn said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl

This is a great post. It breaks down the Achilles heal of our passing game and lately our offense in a black and white, xs and os, fact based way that has zero to do with opinion or bias.

FF to 24:30 to get an idea of the technical failures that are leading to why our offense is stuck. They break it down really well. And the issue, like may have said, stem from Russ being limited in the reads he makes and the routes he will throw and that defenses are getting to the point where he has little left to go to within the game he is comfortable with. And as has been said, even when Waldron introduces a play to beat what the defenses are doing, Russ won't make the throw.

Our offense is stuck in large part because since 2 years ago really, and especially last year and this, defenses have gradually clamped down on what Russ does as a passer. The playbook has gotten smaller and smaller to the point where the plays that now work are largely just boom plays that rely on the wr having lots of open space to work with over the top.

The vast majority of the rest of Waldrons playbook that is being called to actually get us out of the funk we are in, Russ isn't pulling the trigger on.

FF to 31:00 or so and they talk about the plays that we were running in preseason with backups and finding success with, Russ isn't running or executing... or even looking to throw. Schottenheimer tried some last year and Russ didn't take them and Waldron is calling more of it and Russ is failing at them.

Around 39 minutes in they also talk about what to do next because if this is Russ... and STATISTICALLY, WITH REAL NUMBERS REFERENCED BACK TO 2013, it seems it is, then what do we do? They note that Waldron is seeing the same rejection of playcalls that Schotty did from Russ. And that Waldron is calling more Rams styled route concepts, but that Russ is reluctant to throw them.

To those that think we are trying to run too much, they dispell that, referencing stats that show that on neutral downs, we are passing 57% of the time.

Also that we've become a pure PA team with Russ under center. In other words, no short developing routes that would add to the type of plays that would keep defenses off balance.

And finally, they dispell the notion that the uptempo 2 minute offense is the key to making us work. It worked against WTF because of a broken play. And, in an indictment of how poor our pass offense is and has been from the beginning of the Russ era (my assessment based off of what we've all come to see) with the 3 OCs now ( but the same qb) the uptempo game backs the defense off so that they play soft against those routes that Russ refuses to throw over the regular course of the game. In other words, our offense only works well not when our QB executes it, but when defenses play off enough because they're tired and can't substitute and give us certain plays.

They also talk about the liability that Pocic is and the line in general because of injury. But mention that statistically they are average ( i think somewhere around the 45 minute mark he references that we are 12th in pass pro metric)

Yes, we can run block better, but we're running at a better than avg clip as it stands.

Yes we can scheme better. There are still plays and schemes that we can go to to shake things up.
Yes our wrs need to catch the ball when they get it.

But the stick in the mud of our offense is #3. And it's been that way for a longbtime. Measure by something other than the rainbow ball or scramble, and that's who we really are in terms of our passing ability and diversity.

Not hate.

Not bias.

Just xs and os fact.
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
OrangeGravy":2ez9pjdn said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl


Think this is the most intelligent analysis that I've been exposed to... way better than what the media is talking about... Good job in finding this OrangeGravy!

LTH
 
OP
OP
OrangeGravy

OrangeGravy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
384
toffee":2oi76eso said:
OrangeGravy":2oi76eso said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
OrangeGravy":2e5k405j said:
toffee":2e5k405j said:
OrangeGravy":2e5k405j said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.

That is an interesting thought about nerve damage. I wonder if his finger is numb, and they are hoping the feeling comes back. I know this to... I have neck issues that make it really hard to play my guitar because I have 3 fingers that go numb but it's intermittent.

LTH
 
OP
OP
OrangeGravy

OrangeGravy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
384
LTH":2c9zxr40 said:
OrangeGravy":2c9zxr40 said:
toffee":2c9zxr40 said:
OrangeGravy":2c9zxr40 said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.

That is an interesting thought about nerve damage. I wonder if his finger is numb, and they are hoping the feeling comes back. I know this to... I have neck issues that make it really hard to play my guitar because I have 3 fingers that go numb but it's intermittent.

LTH
I have intermittent numbness on my pinky side of my left hand and clavicle area from it. Sometimes nerve inflammation and pain if I have anything rub on the collarbone, like a backpack strap or seat belt for too long. It will never go away
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
OrangeGravy":1wivys04 said:
LTH":1wivys04 said:
OrangeGravy":1wivys04 said:
toffee":1wivys04 said:
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.

That is an interesting thought about nerve damage. I wonder if his finger is numb, and they are hoping the feeling comes back. I know this to... I have neck issues that make it really hard to play my guitar because I have 3 fingers that go numb but it's intermittent.

LTH
I have intermittent numbness on my pinky side of my left hand and clavicle area from it. Sometimes nerve inflammation and pain if I have anything rub on the collarbone, like a backpack strap or seat belt for too long. It will never go away

It absolutely would explain Russ's accuracy issues. and it's not like they are going to point it out to the media...I wouldn't.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
3,865
Reaction score
6,776
Location
Cockeysville, Md
OrangeGravy":1afmqyf9 said:
toffee":1afmqyf9 said:
OrangeGravy":1afmqyf9 said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.


Yup. But he does mention Everett being able to do some of the crossing stuff that DK is less often used for. The question is even if we have the guy running the route, will Russ throw it, because when it's been there, he hasn't.

It all really does suck though, because it makes it difficult to really know what to do. As a playcaller, it's not simply about devising a scheme that will beat a defense, it's then having to eliminate of those plays the ones your QB won't run or cant..and then trying to disguise the old things he can run in a way that make it look different to the D. Or do things like run PA on 51 out of 57 under center drops... which is insane. But it seems that's how deep the corner is that this offense is painted into.

I do think the TE game coming alive a bit is helping though. Russ just needs to hit the stuff thats there. If he did... even just one or two plays here or there, we'd maybe be in a position to still be in the race and learning on the fly. Now we're just learning... but I'm not sure to what end or whether it's actually getting better. If the WFT game is a barometer, I'd say not.
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
keasley45":tniubuue said:
OrangeGravy":tniubuue said:
toffee":tniubuue said:
OrangeGravy":tniubuue said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl
And finger issues, I believe the accuracy issue is directly linked to his injury.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
Accuracy definitely impacted by the finger. I think potential nerve issues are being overlooked in this procedure. I had a plate put in on my clavicle due to a bad break 3 years ago. A good 8" cut in an area with tons of nerves. The surgeon warned me that some may not ever come back. I have all kinds of weird nerve stuff going on with that whole left arm now.

The reason I like this video is it discusses some of the potential issues Waldron is having finding plays that work for both countering the defense and that have routes that Russell is willing to throw. We fans, do to our limited knowledge, tend to over simplify and under estimate how difficult it is to actually match play calling to personnel and beat the defense.

Another conclusion I come to even more after watching this, is that we don't have the right personnel to run this 'McVay' offense properly even if without Russell's shortcomings. You really need your WR1 & WR2 to be good route runners in the full route tree. DK just doesnt run certain routes well enough and Tyler can, but his size limits what you want him doing. A lot of what limits DK is just his length and stride. Long striders are never gonna be quick in and out of anything and they naturally tend to round off out of breaks instead being sharp and sudden.


Yup. But he does mention Everett being able to do some of the crossing stuff that DK is less often used for. The question is even if we have the guy running the route, will Russ throw it, because when it's been there, he hasn't.

It all really does suck though, because it makes it difficult to really know what to do. As a playcaller, it's not simply about devising a scheme that will beat a defense, it's then having to eliminate of those plays the ones your QB won't run or cant..and then trying to disguise the old things he can run in a way that make it look different to the D. Or do things like run PA on 51 out of 57 under center drops... which is insane. But it seems that's how deep the corner is that this offense is painted into.

I do think the TE game coming alive a bit is helping though. Russ just needs to hit the stuff thats there. If he did... even just one or two plays here or there, we'd maybe be in a position to still be in the race and learning on the fly. Now we're just learning... but I'm not sure to what end or whether it's actually getting better. If the WFT game is a barometer, I'd say not.

I agree with what you're saying but my question is, Why is Wilson taking the stance that it looks like he is taking.. at this point why would it be advantageous for Wilson not wanting to hit those routes? Is Wilson really that stubborn to where he would lose several games because he won't hit those routes? Maybe....But that sure doesn't make since to me NOT at this point...At one point I believed Russ has a huge ego thing going on and I still believe that to a point... but if that is the case other coaches are going to know that because they look at tape too and one would have to wonder how that would affect the leagues perception of Wilson around the league. To me either we are reading it wrong, or Wilson is digging his own grave... I want to believe we are reading it wrong, but the truth is I don't know. I just hope Carroll is smart enough to figure it out or it's purely and injury thing at this point



LTH
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,903
Reaction score
1,083
OP, Are you sure that your assessment of our OL is even correct?

The numbers I have seen, last year, we were one of the worst in the league in time from snap to pressure.

That was true the year before as well. This year Brown is worse, so I am not sure if your assessment is correct.

It makes complete sense that even in circumstances where we do not give up pressure he misses guys, because he has to expect the pressure and look for it. One reason Wilson likes to take such long drops and stay in shotgun where possible.

Wilson likely did not need to learn to read defenses as much presnap, though. A natural consequence of the way he was taught to play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjrHuG2LfXg&t=516s). It looked like it was more reading the coverage of the receiver while in the route.

We can debate if Wilson did those things people seemed to believe he is incapable of - since I saw it when he was playing with the aircast on, boot..whatever. But he isn't doing those things now. Why is a good question.


So the larger problem is that Wilson WAS effective for us, now he is not.

Would replacing him fix things? No.

Removing Wilson does not fix things because Pete was essentially being carried by Wilson. The problem Pete has now is that Wilson is not only not carrying him, he is dragging him further down. There is nobody to play outside the lines to make up for Pete's near incompetence as a gameday coach.

Again, Pete by himself is near worthless as a gameday coach so that idea that jettisoning Wilson fixes things is laughable. Maybe Wilson has been holding us back within the offensive schemes, but outside of them he has been getting results. Results Pete would not have gotten by himself.

So an ineffective QB combined with a borderline worthless HC, removing the QB just continues to get you the borderline worthless HC. Wilson has issues that need to be fixed. But removing Wilson does not make us any more successful.
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
TwistedHusky":3nxadbog said:
Are you sure that your assessment of our OL is even correct?

The numbers I have seen, last year, we were one of the worst in the league in time from snap to pressure.

That was true the year before as well. This year Brown is worse, so I am not sure if your assessment is correct.

It makes complete sense that even in circumstances where we do not give up pressure he misses guys, because he has to expect the pressure and look for it. One reason Wilson likes to take such long drops and stay in shotgun where possible.

A larger problem is that Wilson WAS effective for us, now he is not. Removing Wilson does not fix things because Pete is essentially being carried by Wilson. The problem he has now is that Wilson is not only not carrying him, he is dragging him further down.

But Pete by himself is near worthless as a gameday coach so that idea that jettisoning Wilson fixes things is laughable. Maybe Wilson has been holding us back within the offensive schemes, but outside of them he has been getting results. Results Pete would not have gotten by himself.

So an ineffective QB combined with a borderline worthless HC, removing the QB just continues to get you the borderline worthless HC. Wilson has issues that need to be fixed. But removing Wilson does not make us any more successful.


Ok so I am going to agree with some of your post. I agree that removing Wilson is not the answer. I'm going to agree that it could be a factor that the pash rush could be contributing to Wilson not seeing some of the routes. But at the same time, I'm going to still subscribe to Keasley's theory about Wilsons reads because I think the issue is multi-faceted, I also think that it's not ALL the o lines fault at least against WFT. I think the backs are missing chips and even the match up says Dallas trying to block WFT big DT is a slight bad match up to say the least. I saw that several times I also saw that Seattle had some issues blocking that interior D line, but they were not horrible just average as they gave up 2 sacks and at least one of those was because the back was over matched, I think every team is have issue with that interior D line and I think that's fair.


LTH
 

TwistedHusky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
6,903
Reaction score
1,083
That is the issue.

Both Pete and Wilson never had to learn to do certain things because they were able to succeed without them. Now they cannot, but anyone will tell you that unlearning bad habits is tremendously difficult.

Pete was able to be successful because he built amazing rosters and had a knack for understanding how to see greatness in others & extract it successfully. So he never needed to learn how to be effective strategically or tactically. He isn't completely incompetent, but he is far below most of the other coaches in the NFL that had to be exceptional at these things.

Wilson was successful because most defenses key on trying to pressure QBs (pressure does not work on Wilson) and to move the QB from his spot, even when you fail to sack a QB it impacts the success rate. Wilson is tremendously dangerous throwing on the run and does not get flustered or stressed. If anything, he gets better under pressure.
So it is likely he never needed to learn to understand the defenses and learn what overcomes each type. He isn't incompetent either, but he is probably below a typical QB in some of the skills we expect at that experience level.

They both seem weirdly unbalanced at their skill sets but succeeded just the same. Now those gaps are becoming a problem.

My issue is that I believe a good offensively-minded coach could either address or mitigate the issues with Wilson. Unless we get the QB from Houston, I don't see us fixing the Pete problem. (If Pete had 5-7 years? Sure. But I don't think he does.) So it feels more reasonable to try to fix Wilson than expect Pete to rebuild a team in under 3 years.
(He probably could in 5)

It is a gamble either way but the whole 'Wilson is not capable of being better' thing is getting out of hand. Some of this is injury, some bad habits, some Pete decisions - but there is a chance of addressing.
 

LTH

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
4,326
Reaction score
1,012
The other part is that I agree that JS needs to put some more draft capital into the O line. I think it's a mistake not to as I believe games are won and lost in the trenches. I also believe that when the Hawks O line is healthy it's an ok line the center position being the weak link, I think that when a line does not have continuity they will not be as good, and I think the Hawks have been suffering from that perspective.

Edit this was not a response to your last post the one before it

LTH
 
OP
OP
OrangeGravy

OrangeGravy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
384
TwistedHusky":2vzzm588 said:
OP, Are you sure that your assessment of our OL is even correct?

The numbers I have seen, last year, we were one of the worst in the league in time from snap to pressure.

That was true the year before as well. This year Brown is worse, so I am not sure if your assessment is correct.

It makes complete sense that even in circumstances where we do not give up pressure he misses guys, because he has to expect the pressure and look for it. One reason Wilson likes to take such long drops and stay in shotgun where possible.

Wilson likely did not need to learn to read defenses as much presnap, though. A natural consequence of the way he was taught to play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjrHuG2LfXg&t=516s). It looked like it was more reading the coverage of the receiver while in the route.

We can debate if Wilson did those things people seemed to believe he is incapable of - since I saw it when he was playing with the aircast on, boot..whatever. But he isn't doing those things now. Why is a good question.


So the larger problem is that Wilson WAS effective for us, now he is not.

Would replacing him fix things? No.

Removing Wilson does not fix things because Pete was essentially being carried by Wilson. The problem Pete has now is that Wilson is not only not carrying him, he is dragging him further down. There is nobody to play outside the lines to make up for Pete's near incompetence as a gameday coach.

Again, Pete by himself is near worthless as a gameday coach so that idea that jettisoning Wilson fixes things is laughable. Maybe Wilson has been holding us back within the offensive schemes, but outside of them he has been getting results. Results Pete would not have gotten by himself.

So an ineffective QB combined with a borderline worthless HC, removing the QB just continues to get you the borderline worthless HC. Wilson has issues that need to be fixed. But removing Wilson does not make us any more successful.
The o-line pass rush win rate being 12th in the league is not my stat. That's what CMike quoted in the video.

I will say, that it doesn't matter how good they block outside of the jailbreak plays because Russell leaves clean pockets constantly. The excuse of always having a bad line conditioning him to or making him gun shy, doesn't fly either. He's been fleeing clean pockets from day 1 in Seattle. He's always needed a lot of space to feel comfortable and if that space is even close to being in doubt, he's either gonna retreat or flee in some way. He doesnt like stepping up. He does it when there's a massive gap sometimes, but almost never if the space isn't bug enough to run if needed. Shotty was brought in to clean Russell up and apply more discipline to him mechanically. He got better, but it didn't take with his pocket discipline and he hasn't got over his fear or whatever causes him to avoid the middle
 
OP
OP
OrangeGravy

OrangeGravy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
384
TwistedHusky":13epxk9n said:
That is the issue.

Both Pete and Wilson never had to learn to do certain things because they were able to succeed without them. Now they cannot, but anyone will tell you that unlearning bad habits is tremendously difficult.

Pete was able to be successful because he built amazing rosters and had a knack for understanding how to see greatness in others & extract it successfully. So he never needed to learn how to be effective strategically or tactically. He isn't completely incompetent, but he is far below most of the other coaches in the NFL that had to be exceptional at these things.

Wilson was successful because most defenses key on trying to pressure QBs (pressure does not work on Wilson) and to move the QB from his spot, even when you fail to sack a QB it impacts the success rate. Wilson is tremendously dangerous throwing on the run and does not get flustered or stressed. If anything, he gets better under pressure.
So it is likely he never needed to learn to understand the defenses and learn what overcomes each type. He isn't incompetent either, but he is probably below a typical QB in some of the skills we expect at that experience level.

They both seem weirdly unbalanced at their skill sets but succeeded just the same. Now those gaps are becoming a problem.

My issue is that I believe a good offensively-minded coach could either address or mitigate the issues with Wilson. Unless we get the QB from Houston, I don't see us fixing the Pete problem. (If Pete had 5-7 years? Sure. But I don't think he does.) So it feels more reasonable to try to fix Wilson than expect Pete to rebuild a team in under 3 years.
(He probably could in 5)

It is a gamble either way but the whole 'Wilson is not capable of being better' thing is getting out of hand. Some of this is injury, some bad habits, some Pete decisions - but there is a chance of addressing.
I couldn't care less about whether Pete stays or goes. He's a separate issue from Russell to me, outside of his mistake of going away from his own nature (roster and play style) to satisfy Russ.

When it comes to Russell, he can be better as you say. The problem is Russell at his best, which we've seen, doesn't translate to the playoffs. The holes in his game are unfortunately relatively easy for good playoff teams to exploit. Russell at his best in my opinion, requires a team built very close to the 2013 team in talent and philosophy in order to advance. I don't think you can coach around his holes without leaning on the run game. Which in and of itself should be a logical option. There's only one problem, Russell himself, doesn't appear to want to play football that way anymore. Maybe another coach could convince him or Jedi mind trick him into accepting it?
 

Jville

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
13,253
Reaction score
1,628
Interesting conversions within this thread. :2thumbs: Really good.

The time it took to watch the linked video was well worth it.

Excellent find.
 

nwHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
3,841
Reaction score
1,255
Yes, lots of good stuff in that video. Very telling how Russ has backed himself into a pattern that teams have figured out which is strongly contributing to his demise. That coupled with his limitations is a bad combination, especially as he ages and slows down. Not a good sign.
 

pittpnthrs

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,342
Reaction score
1,863
keasley45":1hpc02vm said:
OrangeGravy":1hpc02vm said:
Kind of comes around to what a few of us think and feel, that Russ is being Russ for the most part with some added confidence issues making it even worse

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles ... wsource=cl

This is a great post. It breaks down the Achilles heal of our passing game and lately our offense in a black and white, xs and os, fact based way that has zero to do with opinion or bias.

FF to 24:30 to get an idea of the technical failures that are leading to why our offense is stuck. They break it down really well. And the issue, like may have said, stem from Russ being limited in the reads he makes and the routes he will throw and that defenses are getting to the point where he has little left to go to within the game he is comfortable with. And as has been said, even when Waldron introduces a play to beat what the defenses are doing, Russ won't make the throw.

Our offense is stuck in large part because since 2 years ago really, and especially last year and this, defenses have gradually clamped down on what Russ does as a passer. The playbook has gotten smaller and smaller to the point where the plays that now work are largely just boom plays that rely on the wr having lots of open space to work with over the top.

The vast majority of the rest of Waldrons playbook that is being called to actually get us out of the funk we are in, Russ isn't pulling the trigger on.

FF to 31:00 or so and they talk about the plays that we were running in preseason with backups and finding success with, Russ isn't running or executing... or even looking to throw. Schottenheimer tried some last year and Russ didn't take them and Waldron is calling more of it and Russ is failing at them.

Around 39 minutes in they also talk about what to do next because if this is Russ... and STATISTICALLY, WITH REAL NUMBERS REFERENCED BACK TO 2013, it seems it is, then what do we do? They note that Waldron is seeing the same rejection of playcalls that Schotty did from Russ. And that Waldron is calling more Rams styled route concepts, but that Russ is reluctant to throw them.

To those that think we are trying to run too much, they dispell that, referencing stats that show that on neutral downs, we are passing 57% of the time.

Also that we've become a pure PA team with Russ under center. In other words, no short developing routes that would add to the type of plays that would keep defenses off balance.

And finally, they dispell the notion that the uptempo 2 minute offense is the key to making us work. It worked against WTF because of a broken play. And, in an indictment of how poor our pass offense is and has been from the beginning of the Russ era (my assessment based off of what we've all come to see) with the 3 OCs now ( but the same qb) the uptempo game backs the defense off so that they play soft against those routes that Russ refuses to throw over the regular course of the game. In other words, our offense only works well not when our QB executes it, but when defenses play off enough because they're tired and can't substitute and give us certain plays.

They also talk about the liability that Pocic is and the line in general because of injury. But mention that statistically they are average ( i think somewhere around the 45 minute mark he references that we are 12th in pass pro metric)

Yes, we can run block better, but we're running at a better than avg clip as it stands.

Yes we can scheme better. There are still plays and schemes that we can go to to shake things up.
Yes our wrs need to catch the ball when they get it.

But the stick in the mud of our offense is #3. And it's been that way for a longbtime. Measure by something other than the rainbow ball or scramble, and that's who we really are in terms of our passing ability and diversity.

Not hate.

Not bias.

Just xs and os fact.

I find it kind of funny how in week 1, Russ and the offense played like gangbusters with great tempo and motion and then Carroll says that Waldron is onboard with the way things are done around there and suddenly the offense regresses to what its been since last season. Did that article say anything about that by chance?
 

olyfan63

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
5,672
Reaction score
1,715
OrangeGravy":1rwvi6ip said:
...
I will say, that it doesn't matter how good they block outside of the jailbreak plays because Russell leaves clean pockets constantly. The excuse of always having a bad line conditioning him to or making him gun shy, doesn't fly either. He's been fleeing clean pockets from day 1 in Seattle. He's always needed a lot of space to feel comfortable and if that space is even close to being in doubt, he's either gonna retreat or flee in some way. He doesnt like stepping up. He does it when there's a massive gap sometimes, but almost never if the space isn't bug enough to run if needed. Shotty was brought in to clean Russell up and apply more discipline to him mechanically. He got better, but it didn't take with his pocket discipline and he hasn't got over his fear or whatever causes him to avoid the middle
I couldn't care less about whether Pete stays or goes. He's a separate issue from Russell to me, outside of his mistake of going away from his own nature (roster and play style) to satisfy Russ.

...
When it comes to Russell, he can be better as you say. The problem is Russell at his best, which we've seen, doesn't translate to the playoffs. The holes in his game are unfortunately relatively easy for good playoff teams to exploit. Russell at his best in my opinion, requires a team built very close to the 2013 team in talent and philosophy in order to advance. I don't think you can coach around his holes without leaning on the run game. Which in and of itself should be a logical option. There's only one problem, Russell himself, doesn't appear to want to play football that way anymore. Maybe another coach could convince him or Jedi mind trick him into accepting it?
^^^

Great couple of posts. We've had so many debates over the years...
...If Russell only had a decent O-Line...
...Russell gets no time in the pocket...

But then look at the year we won the Owl with rookies Michael Bowie and Alvin Bailey holding down the O-Line and Russell running for his life. I swear, the final regular season game or two, especially the finale vs the Rams, Russell had to run for his life, and was lucky to make it to the end of the season without a career-ending injury. OL Rookies Bowie and Bailey were injury replacement starters, and had one skill: engaging NFL DLs and LBs and pushing them enough out of Marshawn Lynch's way, occupying them enough for Lynch to do what Lynch does. Certainly pass-blocking was not their strength. Both Bowie and Bailey were out of football within a couple years, due to character/maturity/work habits issues. Super-elusive young Russell was able to make chicken salad out of that chicken poop. An elite historic defense plus a punishing running game, plus an elusive QB who didn't turn the ball over and made timely big plays--Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson captured lightning in a bottle for 2 full years, getting the better of everyone until the fiasco at the very end of SB49.

That 2013 Defense absolutely dominated the postseason, beating NO, SF, and Denver. The 2014 version of that historical Hawks defense was good enough to carry the team back to the Owl, including the Green Bay NFCCG where Russell threw 5 picks, yet the D somehow kept the game close enough for that miracle finish. That 2014 D was one CB short against NE after Jeremy Lane went down. It's hard to blame Russell that much for "the pick" given the horrible matchups, needing Jermaine Kearse to out-muscle Brandon Browner for the play's first option to work. Yet, you could argue that Russell coulda, shoulda, recognized that mismatch and been ready to look for the 2nd and 3rd options, or use his legs. In the heat of the moment, he chose to "trust the play call" and we all know what happened next. Maybe that moment was so traumatic that it still affects Russell?

I almost think I now understand what Richard Sherman was talking about in his rants afterwards. Russell wasn't being expected to read defenses, but rather just to continue to work his sandlot magic. It was sure magical when it still worked.
 
Top