Waldron and Run Game Protecting Russell from 2-High looks

Some great recent breakdowns by Matty Brown, discussing the emergence of Seattle's running game. The one at the link below had a little gem that could easily be overlooked:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-repo ... r-vs-bears

"It was the GU-counter change-up which resulted in Penny’s pair of 32-yard rushes. Moreover, it proved effective at punishing Chicago for aligning in a two-high shell and running a coverage that Seattle—and Russell Wilson—has, did and will struggle with. "

The second run described in the article was the mid 4th quarter run where Penny took the ball to the 15, Russell took a brain-dead 15 yard sack playing hero ball on the next play, and Myers missed a 45 yard FG, barely wide, in the snowy and blustery conditions. Russell's inability to play team-oriented situational football kept the Seahawks from building a 2-score lead that would have been insurmountable. Russell had a 5-yard checkdown open to DJ Dallas, but turned his nose up at it, ran around playing hero-ball, and took a huge, unnecessary sack, and left the door open for the Bears comeback.

What was interesting to me here, is the amount of effort Waldron (I presume) put into designing run packages to gash the Bears and get them out of Russell's kryptonite, the 2-high shell defense. So, finally, we have an OC and a game plan that anticipates what the opponent will do, prepares counters for it, and is able to get the team to successfully execute in game situations! I LIKE IT!! Enough of the old "impose our will" crap that the "old" Pete used to spew. The Offense is still "imposing their will", but doing it by analyzing opponent strengths and weaknesses and coming in with a plan to exploit the weaknesses.

The Seahawks had packages that specifically targeted the pass-oriented D alignments that Chicago showed, making their pass defenders play the run, and leaving the run defenders mostly out of the play, and punishing the D for playing alignments that Russell struggles with. And they EXECUTED!

The article is also notable to me for the clearly expressed opinion of Matty Brown, about Russell's struggles against a 2-high shell and going further to say Russell will (always) struggle against this.

olyfan63":lx4mwmqk said:

Some great recent breakdowns by Matty Brown, discussing the emergence of Seattle's running game. The one at the link below had a little gem that could easily be overlooked:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-repo ... r-vs-bears

"It was the GU-counter change-up which resulted in Penny’s pair of 32-yard rushes. Moreover, it proved effective at punishing Chicago for aligning in a two-high shell and running a coverage that Seattle—and Russell Wilson—has, did and will struggle with. "

The second run described in the article was the mid 4th quarter run where Penny took the ball to the 15, Russell took a brain-dead 15 yard sack playing hero ball on the next play, and Myers missed a 45 yard FG, barely wide, in the snowy and blustery conditions. Russell's inability to play team-oriented situational football kept the Seahawks from building a 2-score lead that would have been insurmountable. Russell had a 5-yard checkdown open to DJ Dallas, but turned his nose up at it, ran around playing hero-ball, and took a huge, unnecessary sack, and left the door open for the Bears comeback.

What was interesting to me here, is the amount of effort Waldron (I presume) put into designing run packages to gash the Bears and get them out of Russell's kryptonite, the 2-high shell defense. So, finally, we have an OC and a game plan that anticipates what the opponent will do, prepares counters for it, and is able to get the team to successfully execute in game situations! I LIKE IT!! Enough of the old "impose our will" crap that the "old" Pete used to spew. The Offense is still "imposing their will", but doing it by analyzing opponent strengths and weaknesses and coming in with a plan to exploit the weaknesses.

The Seahawks had packages that specifically targeted the pass-oriented D alignments that Chicago showed, making their pass defenders play the run, and leaving the run defenders mostly out of the play, and punishing the D for playing alignments that Russell struggles with. And they EXECUTED!

The article is also notable to me for the clearly expressed opinion of Matty Brown, about Russell's struggles against a 2-high shell and going further to say Russell will (always) struggle against this.

Click to expand...

Well for one and has been posted Wilson's kryltonite is not 2 high safety. Nor does anything in the article say anything about Wilson. If u go look u will find his numbers against 2 high safeties and he has great numbers overall. A few bad games does not mean kryptonite. It just means some bad games.

olyfan63":1l4ytje1 said:

Some great recent breakdowns by Matty Brown, discussing the emergence of Seattle's running game. The one at the link below had a little gem that could easily be overlooked:
https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/gm-repo ... r-vs-bears

"It was the GU-counter change-up which resulted in Penny’s pair of 32-yard rushes. Moreover, it proved effective at punishing Chicago for aligning in a two-high shell and running a coverage that Seattle—and Russell Wilson—has, did and will struggle with. "

The second run described in the article was the mid 4th quarter run where Penny took the ball to the 15, Russell took a brain-dead 15 yard sack playing hero ball on the next play, and Myers missed a 45 yard FG, barely wide, in the snowy and blustery conditions. Russell's inability to play team-oriented situational football kept the Seahawks from building a 2-score lead that would have been insurmountable. Russell had a 5-yard checkdown open to DJ Dallas, but turned his nose up at it, ran around playing hero-ball, and took a huge, unnecessary sack, and left the door open for the Bears comeback.

What was interesting to me here, is the amount of effort Waldron (I presume) put into designing run packages to gash the Bears and get them out of Russell's kryptonite, the 2-high shell defense. So, finally, we have an OC and a game plan that anticipates what the opponent will do, prepares counters for it, and is able to get the team to successfully execute in game situations! I LIKE IT!! Enough of the old "impose our will" crap that the "old" Pete used to spew. The Offense is still "imposing their will", but doing it by analyzing opponent strengths and weaknesses and coming in with a plan to exploit the weaknesses.

The Seahawks had packages that specifically targeted the pass-oriented D alignments that Chicago showed, making their pass defenders play the run, and leaving the run defenders mostly out of the play, and punishing the D for playing alignments that Russell struggles with. And they EXECUTED!

The article is also notable to me for the clearly expressed opinion of Matty Brown, about Russell's struggles against a 2-high shell and going further to say Russell will (always) struggle against this.

Click to expand...

Hopefully it's a sign of things to come. The only question now, is whether or not Russell is bought in. IF, this carries into next season, meaning the FO solidifies the OL and we can finally get some luck in the RB health department, it's the perfect balance for Russell's game specifically

That's a great breakdown. By now, it's pretty much beyond dispute that RW struggles against that coverage. The best he's performed against it in the last two years came over the last half of last year and the last few games of this year. If he's not breaking it with a chance improvisation or by exploiting a busted coverage, he has trouble.

But I think Russ is determined to show that he's capable of succeeding outside of the shadow of the Seattle way, which is great defense and a strong running game, with a 'manager' qb.

So, if the plan is to 'run' our way to success, behind the philosophy of a head coach who 'knows what's best' for him, rather than constructing an offensive line that in his mind can give him the time he needs to work through his deficiencies himself, I don't know that he will be happy.

This is just a hypothesis of mine. Not gospel. Not spoken as fact. And I don't have any insider information or access to secret communique.

keasley45 said:

That's a great breakdown. By now, it's pretty much beyond dispute that RW struggles against that coverage. The best he's performed against it in the last two years came over the last half of last year and the last few games of this year. If he's not breaking it with a chance improvisation or by exploiting a busted coverage, he has trouble.

But I think Russ is determined to show that he's capable of succeeding outside of the shadow of the Seattle way, which is great defense and a strong running game, with a 'manager' qb.

So, if the plan is to 'run' our way to success, behind the philosophy of a head coach who 'knows what's best' for him, rather than constructing an offensive line that in his mind can give him the time he needs to work through his deficiencies himself, I don't know that he will be happy.

This is just a hypothesis of mine. Not gospel. Not spoken as fact. And I don't have any insider information or access to secret communique.

Click to expand...

Well, I'd say you were channeling Nostradamus in that mid-late January prediction.

John63 said:

Well for one and has been posted Wilson's kryltonite is not 2 high safety. Nor does anything in the article say anything about Wilson. If u go look u will find his numbers against 2 high safeties and he has great numbers overall. A few bad games does not mean kryptonite. It just means some bad games.

Click to expand...

Two Questions:
In your mind, does Russ have any legitimate weaknesses?

In your mind, are the people with reasonable critique of Wilson’s opportunities and can support it just bat-ish crazy or just really dumb to you?

olyfan63 said:

Well, I'd say you were channeling Nostradamus in that mid-late January prediction.

Click to expand...

olyfan63 said:

Well, I'd say you were channeling Nostradamus in that mid-late January prediction.

Click to expand...

I think if a person A: has access to game film and not just nfl rewind, and B: (and this is the big one) can avoid falling into the Russ vs Pete or Russ vs the FO nonsensical debate, it's pretty easy to see.

On top of the xs and o's, if you take into account things Pete has said and done re Russ and the positions Russ has taken, the input of players who were with him not just for a few months, butvfor seasons (DK is a great example), it's just hard not to see that what transpired, coming as early as the second half of last year and for certain, the 2021 offseason.

I went through a period where I desperately wanted Russ to be mentioned among th top qbs in the league... or at the top. But what you want and what is are often two different things. Ultimately, I just came to appreciate him for the brilliant football player that he is, and took his faults for what they were because like any great team, the whole is better than any individual part. And Russ, in a system that hid his weaknesses could amplify his strengths. And those strengths were considerable.

But for that to happen, each piece has to be ok with being just that. A piece. And it's been obvious for a while that Russ wants to prove wrong his former teammates, his coach, the FO and everyone else who thinks he's good, but only with the right pieces around him. He gave up team winning for MVP and 'me' winning.

He wasnt going to do that here because he'd tried, the results had been evaluated with now two coordinators over multiple seasons, and the decision to move forward without the Russ, pass based offensive attack that struggles to beat 2high looks at its center.

I think Russ knew early on it wasn't going to be an easy season going Waldrons way. Even looking at the Colts game, there are Waldron plays that Russ passed up and even double clutched on. I tbink he made up his mind after week 3 how he'd approach the season - ie, Russ ball centered vs putting on tape potentially struggling through the new looks Waldron might have wanted you integrate. He had nothing to gain in solving that puzzle given the certainty that someone else would pay him for his name, his incredible style of play and in that jump, he'd be able to create a brand new opportunity for himself and a lucrative, 50 mil a year contract. Russ struggling to catch onto Waldrons offense (a coordinator HE requested) would have seen his stock, and potential for an alltime high contract, disappear.

keasley45 said:

That's a great breakdown. By now, it's pretty much beyond dispute that RW struggles against that coverage. The best he's performed against it in the last two years came over the last half of last year and the last few games of this year. If he's not breaking it with a chance improvisation or by exploiting a busted coverage, he has trouble.

But I think Russ is determined to show that he's capable of succeeding outside of the shadow of the Seattle way, which is great defense and a strong running game, with a 'manager' qb.

So, if the plan is to 'run' our way to success, behind the philosophy of a head coach who 'knows what's best' for him, rather than constructing an offensive line that in his mind can give him the time he needs to work through his deficiencies himself, I don't know that he will be happy.

This is just a hypothesis of mine. Not gospel. Not spoken as fact. And I don't have any insider information or access to secret communique.

Click to expand...

only if you ignore the actual facts.

Pandion Haliaetus said:

Two Questions:
In your mind, does Russ have any legitimate weaknesses?

In your mind, are the people with reasonable critique of Wilson’s opportunities and can support it just bat-ish crazy or just really dumb to you?

Click to expand...

Yes he does have weaknesses all players do even the supposed goat Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers etc. I would say it depends on how they address it. for example

he has struggled at times against cover 2. this is true. He cant play against cover 2 this is incorrect. Of course, all of this doe snot take into account play call and design.

John63 said:

only if you ignore the actual facts.

Click to expand...

Waiting on you to refute the post you just quoted. Point by point, preferably.

keasley45 said:

I think if a person A: has access to game film and not just nfl rewind, and B: (and this is the big one) can avoid falling into the Russ vs Pete or Russ vs the FO nonsensical debate, it's pretty easy to see.

On top of the xs and o's, if you take into account things Pete has said and done re Russ and the positions Russ has taken, the input of players who were with him not just for a few months, butvfor seasons (DK is a great example), it's just hard not to see that what transpired, coming as early as the second half of last year and for certain, the 2021 offseason.

I went through a period where I desperately wanted Russ to be mentioned among th top qbs in the league... or at the top. But what you want and what is are often two different things. Ultimately, I just came to appreciate him for the brilliant football player that he is, and took his faults for what they were because like any great team, the whole is better than any individual part. And Russ, in a system that hid his weaknesses could amplify his strengths. And those strengths were considerable.

But for that to happen, each piece has to be ok with being just that. A piece. And it's been obvious for a while that Russ wants to prove wrong his former teammates, his coach, the FO and everyone else who thinks he's good, but only with the right pieces around him. He gave up team winning for MVP and 'me' winning.

He wasnt going to do that here because he'd tried, the results had been evaluated with now two coordinators over multiple seasons, and the decision to move forward without the Russ, pass based offensive attack that struggles to beat 2high looks at its center.

I think Russ knew early on it wasn't going to be an easy season going Waldrons way. Even looking at the Colts game, there are Waldron plays that Russ passed up and even double clutched on. I tbink he made up his mind after week 3 how he'd approach the season - ie, Russ ball centered vs putting on tape potentially struggling through the new looks Waldron might have wanted you integrate. He had nothing to gain in solving that puzzle given the certainty that someone else would pay him for his name, his incredible style of play and in that jump, he'd be able to create a brand new opportunity for himself and a lucrative, 50 mil a year contract. Russ struggling to catch onto Waldrons offense (a coordinator HE requested) would have seen his stock, and potential for an alltime high contract, disappear.

Click to expand...

So ........ Russell can now install his offense and brand in Denver.

While, Waldron is now less encumbered to install his offense in Seattle.

So everybody wins ....... great outcome all around!

I think so. The strategy Russ had to take to get out... you can be mad at it because he chose to frame the reason for his being shortchanged in winning championships on others. but he was playing the money / legacy game. You can't hate him for it. He had a hand to play, and his agent helped him play it very well. He wants his name to be among those rare players who are THE reason their teams win. He was never going to do that in Seattle, where the strategy is working as a team and developing strategies to minimize weakness. The team was willing to accept him at what he was. Either he's not yet to the point of believing himself that he has faults that as his age, are going to difficult to overcome, or he knows it, and is gambling on playing well enough to cash in.

Can Denver put together a line that allows him the time to 'work through' his issues on Sundays? Maybe.

But yeah, best case is that Waldron is let loose to continue to build on some of what we saw at the end of last season without the drama that swirled around Russ last year. I'm curious as to how he feels about Lock. I'd have to think that his word is considered heavily in the conversation about what the strategy should be at qb. Waldron knows what he needs from his guy. There were a couple of occassions last year when he was questioned about why the offense was struggling and he said pretty squarely that for his scheme to work, the ball needs to get out quickly (clearly implying it wasnt). If Shane likes what he sees in Lock, it speaks volumes.

John63 said:

Yes he does have weaknesses all players do even the supposed goat Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers etc. I would say it depends on how they address it. for example

he has struggled at times against cover 2. this is true. He cant play against cover 2 this is incorrect. Of course, all of this doe snot take into account play call and design.

Click to expand...

Russell Wilson is one of the most 'Add Lib" Quarterbacks in the League, so "Play Call and Design" by ANY Offensive Coordinator he's had since coming to Seattle is NOT playing his strong suit, and the Plethora of the Sack Numbers bear that out... These ARE the "Actual Facts"

John63 said:

only if you ignore the actual facts.

Click to expand...

And what facts might they be? Because when I've posted clips of Russ's struggles, you've couched them as cherry picking, even in the face of there being games and seasons of the same sample failures in Russ's play. Or you've explained away Russ throwing deep to covered wrs and ignoring easier plays as being Pete's fault - that he either forbids certain throws or has conditioned Russ to not throw them.

When former players break down film, clearly framing the exact same issues, even going so far as to say that unless Russ fixes his game, that Seattle won't win another championship, you claim that they either also don't like Russ, or have stated in subsequent interviews that they think he's great... as if acknowledging the greatness that Russ exhibits somehow negates the glaring flaws in his game.

And when I've posted verified stats, laid pretty bare lastbyear even before Russ got hurt, about his ineffectiveness passing for 3rd down conversions, you disputed their legitimacy and went on to cite other stats that point to his accuracy, qbr, or utilization of the short game - none of which has any bearing on whether he's effective in 3rd and X situations.

And you hang conspiracy theories on Gregg Olson's opinions, a player who was on the team for one season, yet ignore the opinions of players who played on for the Hawks for multiple seasons, both on offense and defense, and current players like DK... who like Olson, felt the issue with the offense was Pete after year 1, but by week 12 in year 2 of letting Russ play Russ ball, was quick to offer his opinion that the key to overcoming the 2 high failure (the same failure that occurred the year before) was the running game - notbthrowing out of it, because that obviously wasn't working.

So again, what facts?

scutterhawk said:

Russell Wilson is one of the most 'Add Lib" Quarterbacks in the League, so "Play Call and Design" by ANY Offensive Coordinator he's had since coming to Seattle is NOT playing his strong suit, and the Plethora of the Sack Numbers bear that out... These ARE the "Actual Facts"

Click to expand...

OK, so now we're getting somewhere with a concrete idea.
So if your QB's greatest strength is ad-lib, which by definition, the defence can never, ever "figure him out", (wow, brilliant!, rub hands together) the best plan would be to what?

Answer: Let your quarterback ad-lib, all of the time.

Which of the turnstyle offensive coordinators initiated this brilliant plan, with the blessing of Pete?

.........(crickets)...........

BlueTalon said:

Waiting on you to refute the post you just quoted. Point by point, preferably.

Click to expand...

Been there done that

Jville said:

So ........ Russell can now install his offense and brand in Denver.

While, Waldron is now less encumbered to install his offense in Seattle.

So everybody wins ....... great outcome all around!

Click to expand...

Depends on if Waldron can install his offense. Which I doubt. He may get some here and there but not all.

scutterhawk said:

Russell Wilson is one of the most 'Add Lib" Quarterbacks in the League, so "Play Call and Design" by ANY Offensive Coordinator he's had since coming to Seattle is NOT playing his strong suit, and the Plethora of the Sack Numbers bear that out... These ARE the "Actual Facts"

Click to expand...

There is a difference between being able to and having to. As to your actual facts once again they are at best lacking. Example, he holds the ball to long. Yet the FACTS show his time to throw or pressure is 2.4 which is very good. As to your sack facts once again if you take away the number ESPn said was on Wilson he has still been sacked in the top 3 every year. So that analysis ESPN did, did not take into account down and distance or success. For I stance given we were amongst the tops in 3rd and long, one would expect more sacks. ESPN a analysis says could he have throw it to someone or away. Not taking into account situation. Example 3rd and 15 on the last drive of the game. Of you don't get it game over so the sack is irrelevant. Those are also facts that help put other facts into context

keasley45 said:

That's a great breakdown. By now, it's pretty much beyond dispute that RW struggles against that coverage. The best he's performed against it in the last two years came over the last half of last year and the last few games of this year. If he's not breaking it with a chance improvisation or by exploiting a busted coverage, he has trouble.

But I think Russ is determined to show that he's capable of succeeding outside of the shadow of the Seattle way, which is great defense and a strong running game, with a 'manager' qb.

So, if the plan is to 'run' our way to success, behind the philosophy of a head coach who 'knows what's best' for him, rather than constructing an offensive line that in his mind can give him the time he needs to work through his deficiencies himself, I don't know that he will be happy.

This is just a hypothesis of mine. Not gospel. Not spoken as fact. And I don't have any insider information or access to secret communique.

Click to expand...

I think its time to say that Pete's scheme struggles against it and not just put this on Russ. Pete wants to run run run and throw deep. Its what hes always done. Putting this as a purely a function of russ is unfair and oversimplification.

scutterhawk said:

Russell Wilson is one of the most 'Add Lib" Quarterbacks in the League, so "Play Call and Design" by ANY Offensive Coordinator he's had since coming to Seattle is NOT playing his strong suit, and the Plethora of the Sack Numbers bear that out... These ARE the "Actual Facts"

Click to expand...

I thought it was all the olines fault...well if you ask Russ or his numero uno fan boy...