49ers trading up to #3 pick with Dolphins.

Status
Not open for further replies.

UK_Seahawk

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
4,469
Reaction score
513
Whiners be like we are the best team in the universe but we finished rock bottom in the NFC West because we were down to Dion Jordan and Ezekiel Ansah... The problem is they forget these are the types of players the Seahawks regularly take to the play offs.
 

Marvin49

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
351
UK_Seahawk":393h0gf6 said:
Whiners be like we are the best team in the universe but we finished rock bottom in the NFC West because we were down to Dion Jordan and Ezekiel Ansah... The problem is they forget these are the types of players the Seahawks regularly take to the play offs.

What are you babbling about?

1) Ansah was signed because they had been decimated by injuries at DE. He then got hurt himself after 1.5 games and finished on IR.

2) "Best in the Universe"? M'kay...good to see you aren't jumping right into ludicrous hyperbole.

3) No, the issue is that YOU forget that you've never lost your QB in the Wilson era...not for long stretches of time anyway. That's what's happened in 2 of the last three years in SF and why they were going to get another QB this offseason one way or another. NO team in the NFL who has even a DECENT starter can lose that guy and compete. Nobody.
 

Marvin49

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
351
Ramfan128":6fojbrx5 said:
Marvin49":6fojbrx5 said:
Ramfan128":6fojbrx5 said:
Marvin49":6fojbrx5 said:
Yes he did, but that's not the point. The point is that his record includes those players on the roster. I'm not attacking McVay here BTW. I'm just saying the circumstances are different.

I don't buy the injury history thing. Many of them had zero injury history before joining the 49ers. They even fired and replaced their entire training staff.

Say what you want about Goff, but he was at LEAST serviceable. The same CANNOT be said of Beathard and Mullens.

When Shanahan has HAD a serviceable QB, he's 24-9 and has a SB appearance. Its not about just injuries on the team. Its injuries at QB specifically. Its the reason I never thought Jimmy would be traded. They wanted TWO QBs at least this year so that they are insulated from injury at that position.

I mean seriously...what do you guys think happens if Wilson or Stafford go down to an ACL in week 3? You think the team is all hunky dory? You think if the team tanks after that you aren't using that as a reason the season was lost when writing the story of this season?

Come on now.



Depends on what argument you were trying to make. I read it as "McVay inherited better players" as that's been a popular 49er fan take on the situations. If you were just talking about them being available, sure. But he didn't inherit Whitworth or Watkins. He went out and got them.

Garrapolo, Bosa, Kwon Alexander and Sherman all suffered injuries a year or two before coming to SF (Bosa at Ohio State, where he decided to sit the rest of the season to prep for the draft). Verrett had one of the crazier injury histories. Some of those injuries were random, but there is some history with those guys.

If Stafford goes down were still winning 7-10 games. You saw Goff first hand twice last year be the worst football player on the field.

Even in games where he put up numbers like against Tampa, a lot of it was YAC and his two INTs turned what should have been a blowout win to a close game. We likely win 10 games and beat Seattle in the playoffs with almost any QB last year. So while Stafford going down certainly eliminates us from being Super Bowl contenders, were still a fringe playoff team without him. For reference, the Bears made the playoffs last year and we're better than them at every facet of the game - losing Stafford, we would still be better than the Trubisky/Foles led Bears that were the 7 seed last year.

Goff's air yards were near the bottom of the league. He was unbelievably bad last year and when you consider that the OL, run game, WRs and defense were all good - I push back on the notion that he is even serviceable.

I can’t believe if defending Goff….but here goes…lol.

I’m not really arguing that Goff is good. I’m just are going that he’s much better than Beathard and Mullens.

RE Watkins or Whitfield, all I’m saying is that those guys were on the roster when McVay was coaching. How they got there is irrelevant. I’m simply talking about pieces of that team were in place by the time McVay started playing games that counted. That’s it.

Why am I making that point? It’s pertinent if you are going to compare records. The argument isn’t about recruitment.

Look…49ers were completely rebuilt in this first few years. Staley, Ward, Armstead and Buckner remained. Now it’s just Ward and Armstead.

You said one thing tho I completely disagree with. If you think Stafford goes down for the year and you are still winning 10 games, I think you are dreaming. Take it from someone who saw his team in the SB when the WB was healthy (and a QB who is probably the 4th best in the division) and the team completely tank without him.

Finally tho…I’m not really trying to argue Shanahan/McVay. I like them both quite a bit. I’m just saying the situations for them were different. You may hate Goff, but I’d take him in a heartbeat over Hoyer/Beathard/Mullens.


I just don't like the narrative that McVay had so much more to work with. But I like them both too and I think Shanahan is a better offensive mind, worse head coach.

Yea so you either A. Didn't watch the Rams last year or B. Are thinking last year was an aberration for Goff.

Last year the Rams were better than the Niners on defense, at WR, possibly OL, and RB factoring in Mosterts injuries. We were better at everything. So how did we lose to the Niners? First time, fine - just one of those games. But the second game? Mullens was a better QB than Jared Goff.

Goff singlehandedly sunk us against the Dolphins and 49ers last year - as in, if we just ran the ball the entire time both games and didn't drop back once we may have won both. He was awful in the first Niner game, and was awful in the Seattle loss, throwing what should be in the running for worst INT in NFL history. He was also bad against the Jets.

On the flip side, there really isn't a game he won for us. His stats looking good are mostly because we threw so many passes around the line of scrimmage. Both Kupp and Woods were top 6 I believe in YAC.

Goff was ready to go against Seattle in the playoffs - he started Wolford anyways. Would have started him against GB too if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Mullens was absolutely better than Goff last year.

The year prior he was almost as bad. In almost every loss he was the culprit. Even in games that he seemed to play well, he would make an unforgivable play that cost the game. 2019 week 16 game against the Niners is a great example. Threw the ball directly to Fred Warner for a pick 6.



Saw an article that had Goff as the worst QB in the NFL last year when using presnap motion - harder to read a defense when they're in the middle of adjusting when you snap the ball.

Dude can't read a defense and despite having the best roster for a QB last year, held the team back all season. He played well against GB, but that doesn't excuse how awful he was the last two years.

I think you're equating Goff with the guy who had a top 5 OL, top RB, and top WR group in 2017 and 2018 who also had the element of little tape on McVay. Everything said in the last few years is probably true. Everything. Helping him read defenses, needing perfect circumstances, etc. He didn't have that in 2019 and it broke him. McVay started getting on him and it shook his confidence.

There aren't many QBs who were worse than Goff last year. You'd have to watch every Rams game to see beyond the stat sheet.

Put Mullens on the Rams last year with our health, we probably win 11-12 games. Be interested to see teams records in NFL history with the number one defense, a top 10 run game and top 5 in sacks allowed. I'd imagine most won more than 10 games.


I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.
 

Ramfan128

Active member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
1,170
Reaction score
13
Marvin49":21ruy197 said:
Ramfan128":21ruy197 said:
Marvin49":21ruy197 said:
Ramfan128":21ruy197 said:
Depends on what argument you were trying to make. I read it as "McVay inherited better players" as that's been a popular 49er fan take on the situations. If you were just talking about them being available, sure. But he didn't inherit Whitworth or Watkins. He went out and got them.

Garrapolo, Bosa, Kwon Alexander and Sherman all suffered injuries a year or two before coming to SF (Bosa at Ohio State, where he decided to sit the rest of the season to prep for the draft). Verrett had one of the crazier injury histories. Some of those injuries were random, but there is some history with those guys.

If Stafford goes down were still winning 7-10 games. You saw Goff first hand twice last year be the worst football player on the field.

Even in games where he put up numbers like against Tampa, a lot of it was YAC and his two INTs turned what should have been a blowout win to a close game. We likely win 10 games and beat Seattle in the playoffs with almost any QB last year. So while Stafford going down certainly eliminates us from being Super Bowl contenders, were still a fringe playoff team without him. For reference, the Bears made the playoffs last year and we're better than them at every facet of the game - losing Stafford, we would still be better than the Trubisky/Foles led Bears that were the 7 seed last year.

Goff's air yards were near the bottom of the league. He was unbelievably bad last year and when you consider that the OL, run game, WRs and defense were all good - I push back on the notion that he is even serviceable.

I can’t believe if defending Goff….but here goes…lol.

I’m not really arguing that Goff is good. I’m just are going that he’s much better than Beathard and Mullens.

RE Watkins or Whitfield, all I’m saying is that those guys were on the roster when McVay was coaching. How they got there is irrelevant. I’m simply talking about pieces of that team were in place by the time McVay started playing games that counted. That’s it.

Why am I making that point? It’s pertinent if you are going to compare records. The argument isn’t about recruitment.

Look…49ers were completely rebuilt in this first few years. Staley, Ward, Armstead and Buckner remained. Now it’s just Ward and Armstead.

You said one thing tho I completely disagree with. If you think Stafford goes down for the year and you are still winning 10 games, I think you are dreaming. Take it from someone who saw his team in the SB when the WB was healthy (and a QB who is probably the 4th best in the division) and the team completely tank without him.

Finally tho…I’m not really trying to argue Shanahan/McVay. I like them both quite a bit. I’m just saying the situations for them were different. You may hate Goff, but I’d take him in a heartbeat over Hoyer/Beathard/Mullens.


I just don't like the narrative that McVay had so much more to work with. But I like them both too and I think Shanahan is a better offensive mind, worse head coach.

Yea so you either A. Didn't watch the Rams last year or B. Are thinking last year was an aberration for Goff.

Last year the Rams were better than the Niners on defense, at WR, possibly OL, and RB factoring in Mosterts injuries. We were better at everything. So how did we lose to the Niners? First time, fine - just one of those games. But the second game? Mullens was a better QB than Jared Goff.

Goff singlehandedly sunk us against the Dolphins and 49ers last year - as in, if we just ran the ball the entire time both games and didn't drop back once we may have won both. He was awful in the first Niner game, and was awful in the Seattle loss, throwing what should be in the running for worst INT in NFL history. He was also bad against the Jets.

On the flip side, there really isn't a game he won for us. His stats looking good are mostly because we threw so many passes around the line of scrimmage. Both Kupp and Woods were top 6 I believe in YAC.

Goff was ready to go against Seattle in the playoffs - he started Wolford anyways. Would have started him against GB too if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Mullens was absolutely better than Goff last year.

The year prior he was almost as bad. In almost every loss he was the culprit. Even in games that he seemed to play well, he would make an unforgivable play that cost the game. 2019 week 16 game against the Niners is a great example. Threw the ball directly to Fred Warner for a pick 6.



Saw an article that had Goff as the worst QB in the NFL last year when using presnap motion - harder to read a defense when they're in the middle of adjusting when you snap the ball.

Dude can't read a defense and despite having the best roster for a QB last year, held the team back all season. He played well against GB, but that doesn't excuse how awful he was the last two years.

I think you're equating Goff with the guy who had a top 5 OL, top RB, and top WR group in 2017 and 2018 who also had the element of little tape on McVay. Everything said in the last few years is probably true. Everything. Helping him read defenses, needing perfect circumstances, etc. He didn't have that in 2019 and it broke him. McVay started getting on him and it shook his confidence.

There aren't many QBs who were worse than Goff last year. You'd have to watch every Rams game to see beyond the stat sheet.

Put Mullens on the Rams last year with our health, we probably win 11-12 games. Be interested to see teams records in NFL history with the number one defense, a top 10 run game and top 5 in sacks allowed. I'd imagine most won more than 10 games.


I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.
 

Marvin49

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
351
Ramfan128":6q8ecpm1 said:
Marvin49":6q8ecpm1 said:
Ramfan128":6q8ecpm1 said:
Marvin49":6q8ecpm1 said:
I can’t believe if defending Goff….but here goes…lol.

I’m not really arguing that Goff is good. I’m just are going that he’s much better than Beathard and Mullens.

RE Watkins or Whitfield, all I’m saying is that those guys were on the roster when McVay was coaching. How they got there is irrelevant. I’m simply talking about pieces of that team were in place by the time McVay started playing games that counted. That’s it.

Why am I making that point? It’s pertinent if you are going to compare records. The argument isn’t about recruitment.

Look…49ers were completely rebuilt in this first few years. Staley, Ward, Armstead and Buckner remained. Now it’s just Ward and Armstead.

You said one thing tho I completely disagree with. If you think Stafford goes down for the year and you are still winning 10 games, I think you are dreaming. Take it from someone who saw his team in the SB when the WB was healthy (and a QB who is probably the 4th best in the division) and the team completely tank without him.

Finally tho…I’m not really trying to argue Shanahan/McVay. I like them both quite a bit. I’m just saying the situations for them were different. You may hate Goff, but I’d take him in a heartbeat over Hoyer/Beathard/Mullens.


I just don't like the narrative that McVay had so much more to work with. But I like them both too and I think Shanahan is a better offensive mind, worse head coach.

Yea so you either A. Didn't watch the Rams last year or B. Are thinking last year was an aberration for Goff.

Last year the Rams were better than the Niners on defense, at WR, possibly OL, and RB factoring in Mosterts injuries. We were better at everything. So how did we lose to the Niners? First time, fine - just one of those games. But the second game? Mullens was a better QB than Jared Goff.

Goff singlehandedly sunk us against the Dolphins and 49ers last year - as in, if we just ran the ball the entire time both games and didn't drop back once we may have won both. He was awful in the first Niner game, and was awful in the Seattle loss, throwing what should be in the running for worst INT in NFL history. He was also bad against the Jets.

On the flip side, there really isn't a game he won for us. His stats looking good are mostly because we threw so many passes around the line of scrimmage. Both Kupp and Woods were top 6 I believe in YAC.

Goff was ready to go against Seattle in the playoffs - he started Wolford anyways. Would have started him against GB too if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Mullens was absolutely better than Goff last year.

The year prior he was almost as bad. In almost every loss he was the culprit. Even in games that he seemed to play well, he would make an unforgivable play that cost the game. 2019 week 16 game against the Niners is a great example. Threw the ball directly to Fred Warner for a pick 6.



Saw an article that had Goff as the worst QB in the NFL last year when using presnap motion - harder to read a defense when they're in the middle of adjusting when you snap the ball.

Dude can't read a defense and despite having the best roster for a QB last year, held the team back all season. He played well against GB, but that doesn't excuse how awful he was the last two years.

I think you're equating Goff with the guy who had a top 5 OL, top RB, and top WR group in 2017 and 2018 who also had the element of little tape on McVay. Everything said in the last few years is probably true. Everything. Helping him read defenses, needing perfect circumstances, etc. He didn't have that in 2019 and it broke him. McVay started getting on him and it shook his confidence.

There aren't many QBs who were worse than Goff last year. You'd have to watch every Rams game to see beyond the stat sheet.

Put Mullens on the Rams last year with our health, we probably win 11-12 games. Be interested to see teams records in NFL history with the number one defense, a top 10 run game and top 5 in sacks allowed. I'd imagine most won more than 10 games.


I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.
 

chris98251

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
39,519
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Roy Wa.
Marvin49":2ch612jl said:
Ramfan128":2ch612jl said:
Marvin49":2ch612jl said:
Ramfan128":2ch612jl said:
I just don't like the narrative that McVay had so much more to work with. But I like them both too and I think Shanahan is a better offensive mind, worse head coach.

Yea so you either A. Didn't watch the Rams last year or B. Are thinking last year was an aberration for Goff.

Last year the Rams were better than the Niners on defense, at WR, possibly OL, and RB factoring in Mosterts injuries. We were better at everything. So how did we lose to the Niners? First time, fine - just one of those games. But the second game? Mullens was a better QB than Jared Goff.

Goff singlehandedly sunk us against the Dolphins and 49ers last year - as in, if we just ran the ball the entire time both games and didn't drop back once we may have won both. He was awful in the first Niner game, and was awful in the Seattle loss, throwing what should be in the running for worst INT in NFL history. He was also bad against the Jets.

On the flip side, there really isn't a game he won for us. His stats looking good are mostly because we threw so many passes around the line of scrimmage. Both Kupp and Woods were top 6 I believe in YAC.

Goff was ready to go against Seattle in the playoffs - he started Wolford anyways. Would have started him against GB too if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Mullens was absolutely better than Goff last year.

The year prior he was almost as bad. In almost every loss he was the culprit. Even in games that he seemed to play well, he would make an unforgivable play that cost the game. 2019 week 16 game against the Niners is a great example. Threw the ball directly to Fred Warner for a pick 6.



Saw an article that had Goff as the worst QB in the NFL last year when using presnap motion - harder to read a defense when they're in the middle of adjusting when you snap the ball.

Dude can't read a defense and despite having the best roster for a QB last year, held the team back all season. He played well against GB, but that doesn't excuse how awful he was the last two years.

I think you're equating Goff with the guy who had a top 5 OL, top RB, and top WR group in 2017 and 2018 who also had the element of little tape on McVay. Everything said in the last few years is probably true. Everything. Helping him read defenses, needing perfect circumstances, etc. He didn't have that in 2019 and it broke him. McVay started getting on him and it shook his confidence.

There aren't many QBs who were worse than Goff last year. You'd have to watch every Rams game to see beyond the stat sheet.

Put Mullens on the Rams last year with our health, we probably win 11-12 games. Be interested to see teams records in NFL history with the number one defense, a top 10 run game and top 5 in sacks allowed. I'd imagine most won more than 10 games.


I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.


Florio indiactes that you could have had Tom, Tom's opinion is.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...st-year-youre-sticking-with-that-motherf-ker/

Seems personal, so good chance it is Jimmy.
 

Marvin49

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
351
chris98251":24ucqbtx said:
Marvin49":24ucqbtx said:
Ramfan128":24ucqbtx said:
Marvin49":24ucqbtx said:
I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.


Florio indiactes that you could have had Tom, Tom's opinion is.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...st-year-youre-sticking-with-that-motherf-ker/

Seems personal, so good chance it is Jimmy.

1) Pretty sure the 49ers could have had Tom.
2) Don't particularly care what Toms opinion is.
3) Care even less what Florios opinion is.
4) Despite the above, and it could be Jimmy he's referring to, but I really doubt it. Has nothing to do with the Niners tho. Its more about the fact that Jimmy and Tom are actually pretty friendly. Jimmy still hangs out with Tom a bit. I just don't see Tom putting Jimmy on blast like that.
 

Ramfan128

Active member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
1,170
Reaction score
13
Marvin49":2youxe0i said:
Ramfan128":2youxe0i said:
Marvin49":2youxe0i said:
Ramfan128":2youxe0i said:
I just don't like the narrative that McVay had so much more to work with. But I like them both too and I think Shanahan is a better offensive mind, worse head coach.

Yea so you either A. Didn't watch the Rams last year or B. Are thinking last year was an aberration for Goff.

Last year the Rams were better than the Niners on defense, at WR, possibly OL, and RB factoring in Mosterts injuries. We were better at everything. So how did we lose to the Niners? First time, fine - just one of those games. But the second game? Mullens was a better QB than Jared Goff.

Goff singlehandedly sunk us against the Dolphins and 49ers last year - as in, if we just ran the ball the entire time both games and didn't drop back once we may have won both. He was awful in the first Niner game, and was awful in the Seattle loss, throwing what should be in the running for worst INT in NFL history. He was also bad against the Jets.

On the flip side, there really isn't a game he won for us. His stats looking good are mostly because we threw so many passes around the line of scrimmage. Both Kupp and Woods were top 6 I believe in YAC.

Goff was ready to go against Seattle in the playoffs - he started Wolford anyways. Would have started him against GB too if he hadn't gotten hurt.

Mullens was absolutely better than Goff last year.

The year prior he was almost as bad. In almost every loss he was the culprit. Even in games that he seemed to play well, he would make an unforgivable play that cost the game. 2019 week 16 game against the Niners is a great example. Threw the ball directly to Fred Warner for a pick 6.



Saw an article that had Goff as the worst QB in the NFL last year when using presnap motion - harder to read a defense when they're in the middle of adjusting when you snap the ball.

Dude can't read a defense and despite having the best roster for a QB last year, held the team back all season. He played well against GB, but that doesn't excuse how awful he was the last two years.

I think you're equating Goff with the guy who had a top 5 OL, top RB, and top WR group in 2017 and 2018 who also had the element of little tape on McVay. Everything said in the last few years is probably true. Everything. Helping him read defenses, needing perfect circumstances, etc. He didn't have that in 2019 and it broke him. McVay started getting on him and it shook his confidence.

There aren't many QBs who were worse than Goff last year. You'd have to watch every Rams game to see beyond the stat sheet.

Put Mullens on the Rams last year with our health, we probably win 11-12 games. Be interested to see teams records in NFL history with the number one defense, a top 10 run game and top 5 in sacks allowed. I'd imagine most won more than 10 games.


I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.



The neutered comment was actually a complement for Shanahan and a slight for McVay.

With Goff, we've had several horrible offensive games.

With Jimmy Shanahan has had few that I can recall.

Counter point being that Goff might be significantly worse than Jimmy (I think he is at this point) - but we will see this year.
 

UK_Seahawk

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
4,469
Reaction score
513
I see the Niners have decided to use their throwbacks in 4 of their home games. Typical Whiners living in the past.
 

Washington49er

New member
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
0
UK_Seahawk":3bsw8gci said:
I see the Niners have decided to use their throwbacks in 4 of their home games. Typical Whiners living in the past.

Oh I get it you didn't like my response to this stupid comment so you cry personal attack and delete it then send me a warning, unbelievable.

If you're going to make comments like this you should put on your big boy pants. Whats wrong? You can dish it out but can't handle it when its thrown back at you.
 

Fade

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
5,454
Reaction score
2,988
Location
Truth Ray
Goff is garbo. Anyone defending him doesn't know football, or is trolling.

Jury is out on Shanny as a head coach, especially if he has ANOTHER losing season. Trey Lance is his legacy, better hope he doesn't face plant. Otherwise, Shanny will be relegated to career OC, after he gets one more token retread HC job.

I am looking forward to this season. :D
 

UK_Seahawk

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
4,469
Reaction score
513
Washington49er":2mu70onn said:
UK_Seahawk":2mu70onn said:
I see the Niners have decided to use their throwbacks in 4 of their home games. Typical Whiners living in the past.

Oh I get it you didn't like my response to this stupid comment so you cry personal attack and delete it then send me a warning, unbelievable.

If you're going to make comments like this you should put on your big boy pants. Whats wrong? You can dish it out but can't handle it when its thrown back at you.

Yawn.

Go back to plebzone Seattle49er to whine about this place and Seattle. Stop doing it here.
 

Washington49er

New member
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
0
UK_Seahawk":yqhgrz4b said:
Washington49er":yqhgrz4b said:
UK_Seahawk":yqhgrz4b said:
I see the Niners have decided to use their throwbacks in 4 of their home games. Typical Whiners living in the past.

Oh I get it you didn't like my response to this stupid comment so you cry personal attack and delete it then send me a warning, unbelievable.

If you're going to make comments like this you should put on your big boy pants. Whats wrong? You can dish it out but can't handle it when its thrown back at you.

Yawn.

Go back to plebzone Seattle49er to whine about this place and Seattle. Stop doing it here.

Aww do you need a little butthurt cream for your bum?
 

balakoth

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
1,329
Reaction score
434
chris98251":1rddta0m said:
Marvin49":1rddta0m said:
Ramfan128":1rddta0m said:
Marvin49":1rddta0m said:
I'd be curious why you believe the bolded. I've actually heard some variation of that from several fans of other teams, but I dunno where that comes from. Why is McVay a better HC? 49ers blew a lead in the SB, but McVays team was kinda embarrassed vs the Pats.

I just dunno what it is that people are jumping on that makes them think that while Kyle is a good OC, what is it that makes you think he's not a good HC? Genuinely curious.

As for Mullens/Goff....uh....yeah, we're just gonna have to go ahead and disagree. LOL.

Just as you put Goffs success on McVay, the EXACT same thing can be said of Mullens...and even Jimmy to some extent. I mean they run essentially the same system with different variations. Kyle is still more run driven and McVay more pass driven (which is not to say the run isn't a big part of what they do...just less so in the comparison).

Both guys can scheme guys wide open.

Mullens tho would overthrow a wide open fullback by like 15 yards.

Will be real interesting in a few years tho with Stafford in LA, Lance in SF, Wilson still in Sea, and even Kyler in Ari. Stafford will be very diff from Lance even if Lance is a big hit. Staffords passing will be light years ahead of Goff, but Lance will open up the offense in SF simply by having the THREAT of the run. Arizona has that already in Kyler and even with Wilson getting up there...you still have to account for those legs.


I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.


Florio indiactes that you could have had Tom, Tom's opinion is.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...st-year-youre-sticking-with-that-motherf-ker/

Seems personal, so good chance it is Jimmy.

Its pretty clear this has nothing to do with SF... why are our fans on this page such muppets

In fact consensus is that it was the Bears..... get over yourself with some stupid ass fan rival shit
 

chris98251

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
39,519
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Roy Wa.
balakoth":2b9q52z8 said:
chris98251":2b9q52z8 said:
Marvin49":2b9q52z8 said:
Ramfan128":2b9q52z8 said:
I think it's a way of giving Shanahan respect. At the end of the day, a HC is responsible for wins and losses.

There are always extenuating circumstances, of course - in Shanahans case the injuries last year are the reason they were so bad.

But it's still about wins and losses, and their resumes aren't really comparable. McVay has never had a losing season. Has more playoff wins and appearances. Never lost a game when leading at halftime.

Best case for Shanahan there is that the injuries preclude him from even being in the conversation.

For a comparison that I think works: Brady just won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Feels like excusing the injuries for Shanahan could be like someone excusing not having Brady - in that case, one could argue that Bruce Arians or Andy Reid are better than Belichick because if they had Brady, they may have been as good or better - and when they had Brady or another elite QB, they won a Super Bowl just like when Shanahan had a healthy team he reached the same height as McVay.

But few people would realistically argue that Arians or Reid are better than Belichick. Because at the end of the day, Belichick just had more success.

Not a perfect analogy, but I think it works. This is also subjective, right? I think he's a better leader than Kyle but I don't know either of them personally. On the flip side, while I don't usually watch a ton of Shanahans games, I don't recall his offense being neutered the way ours has been (with a starting caliber QB). The counter argument there is that perhaps Goff isn't actually starting caliber - well find out this year.

For the record, not trying to compare McVay and Shanahan. I've just heard a variation of that "good OC, bad HC" speech RE Shanahan a few times and not sure what the deal is on that. I mean is it record alone? Is it some part of his character people don't like? His players seem to love him so just not sure where that comes from.

RE offense being neutered....um...really? Watch 2018 and 2020. Shanahan has desperately wanted a guy who would run his system...and on some measure that included 2019 when Jimmy was healthy.

There is a reason they just dropped 3 1's for Lance.

I like Jimmy, but its pretty clear that Kyle isn't his biggest fan. Despite what some fans on this site have been telling me for a few years tho, Mullens was BAD. Beathard was worse. I'd take Goff any day of the week over those 2.


Florio indiactes that you could have had Tom, Tom's opinion is.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...st-year-youre-sticking-with-that-motherf-ker/

Seems personal, so good chance it is Jimmy.

Its pretty clear this has nothing to do with SF... why are our fans on this page such muppets

In fact consensus is that it was the Bears..... get over yourself with some stupid ass fan rival shit

You really need to comprehend when you reading shit, secondly attacking the whole fan base that posts here is pretty lame, you have no rebuttal other then to attack others. Nice piece of work, maybe you should lay off the Schlitz a bit. Jimmy and Tom were on the same team it had nothing to do with the 49ers, it was in this thread.

But that's ok.
 

Sports Hernia

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
44,755
Reaction score
3,372
Location
The pit
Washington49er":u4rmjnpz said:
UK_Seahawk":u4rmjnpz said:
Washington49er":u4rmjnpz said:
UK_Seahawk":u4rmjnpz said:
I see the Niners have decided to use their throwbacks in 4 of their home games. Typical Whiners living in the past.

Oh I get it you didn't like my response to this stupid comment so you cry personal attack and delete it then send me a warning, unbelievable.

If you're going to make comments like this you should put on your big boy pants. Whats wrong? You can dish it out but can't handle it when its thrown back at you.

Yawn.

Go back to plebzone Seattle49er to whine about this place and Seattle. Stop doing it here.

Aww do you need a little butthurt cream for your bum?
Sick burn! :sarcasm_off:
 

Marvin49

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
7,941
Reaction score
351
....as someone who takes the bait far too often....

....why even respond to the throwback jersey comment? It was just trolling. I'm pretty damn sure that he would admit that too. LOL.
 
OP
OP
Maulbert

Maulbert

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
8,547
Reaction score
1,280
Location
In the basement of Reynholm Industries
Marvin49":29ufys4p said:
....as someone who takes the bait far too often....

....why even respond to the throwback jersey comment? It was just trolling. I'm pretty damn sure that he would admit that too. LOL.

Because WashingtonWhiner is only here to fail at trolling, anyway.
 

Washington49er

New member
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
3,273
Reaction score
0
Maulbert":a3k4ra45 said:
Marvin49":a3k4ra45 said:
....as someone who takes the bait far too often....

....why even respond to the throwback jersey comment? It was just trolling. I'm pretty damn sure that he would admit that too. LOL.

Because WashingtonWhiner is only here to fail at trolling, anyway.

Your brethren is crying about how many times the 49ers wear their throwbacks, but I'm the whiner?
 

Sports Hernia

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
44,755
Reaction score
3,372
Location
The pit
Washington49er":tm9cs20y said:
Maulbert":tm9cs20y said:
Marvin49":tm9cs20y said:
....as someone who takes the bait far too often....

....why even respond to the throwback jersey comment? It was just trolling. I'm pretty damn sure that he would admit that too. LOL.

Because WashingtonWhiner is only here to fail at trolling, anyway.

Your brethren is crying about how many times the 49ers wear their throwbacks, but I'm the whiner?
Even “your brethren” Marvin is calling you out. :lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top