Cyrus12 wrote:Apparently the pilot was given clearance to fly. It's kind of sounding more and more like they flew into the hillside as opposed to a mechanical issue.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

Same thing happened to Stevie Ray Vaughan in the same conditions. No way in hell I'd get into a copter in fog.

This is from a helicopter pilot who breaks down exactly what instruments are in this helicopter and their limitations in fog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cttx236mUIE

tl;dr: The instrumentation doesn't necessarily work that well when dealing with ground conditions you can't see. And if you want to climb up, the heli still has to maintain forward speed through this process. From what witnesses said, it smacked right into the hill just at cloud cover.

@ivotuk, especially interested in your reaction from a pilot standpoint.

Mod edit: This isn't necessary at this time

The tectonic news, which the celebrity-gossip website was first to report, swept the nation as other news organizations quickly confirmed the story.

It also upset police who suggested the speed in which TMZ had reported the news — a little more than an hour after police said they received reports of a downed aircraft — outpaced that of officers who were seeking to notify the family members of victims.

During a press conference, Los Angeles County Sheriff Alex Villanueva took a swipe at the website when explaining to reporters why he would not yet confirm the identities of those who were aboard the helicopter when it crashed.

“It would be extremely disrespectful to understand that your loved one … perished and you learn about it from TMZ,” Villanueva said. “That is just wholly inappropriate.”

Los Angeles County Undersheriff Tim Murakami also jabbed TMZ in a tweet.

“I am saddened that I was gathering facts as a media outlet reported … Kobe had passed,” Murakami wrote. “I understand getting the scoop but please allow us time to make personal notifications to their loved ones. It’s very cold to hear of the loss via media. Breaks my heart.”

A representative for TMZ, which is owned by WarnerMedia, CNN’s parent company, did not respond on Sunday to requests for comment.

https://q13fox.com/2020/01/27/police-sc ... ce=twitter

Could definitely tell from the length of the debris field that it was not a simple up and down crash. Looked more like an airplane crash and did look as though it was at a high speed. The passengers unlikely knew what has happening g until impact.

ivotuk wrote:That's just crazy. I think maybe instead of shutting off the engine, he may have dumped the collective, letting the helicopter free fall. The Sikorsky S-76B I believe it was, has turbine engines, and you don't just shut those off and restart them. That's dangerous as there are a lot of things that can go wrong on a restart, and helicopters don't glide real well with no engine. You can still auto-rotate, and land, if you're in level terrain and good weather conditions.

After reading an article just now, it sounds like the pilot got vertigo, which is very easy to do in weather. It's worse in helicopters because they are inherently unstable. That's why IFR helos have auto pilot.

"Bryant's helicopter left Santa Ana in Orange County, south of Los Angeles, shortly after 9 a.m. and circled for a time just east of Interstate 5, near Glendale. Air traffic controllers noted poor visibility around Burbank, just to the north, and Van Nuys, to the northwest.

After holding up the helicopter for other aircraft, they cleared the Sikorsky S-76 to proceed north along Interstate 5 through Burbank before turning west to follow U.S Route 101, the Ventura Highway.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., the helicopter turned again, toward the southeast, and climbed to more than 2000 feet. It then descended and crashed into the hillside at about 1400 feet, according to data from Flightradar24.

When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 160 knots (184 mph) and descending at a rate of more than 4000 feet per minute, the data showed."

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/0 ... -choppers/

4000 feet per minute descent is extreme! That's a helicopter that is out of control.

What is the collective?
Another witness said he heard sputtering before the crash..
Does this indicate engine shutoff>failed to restart?

So regarding TMZ,

Their whole business model is being first to the scoop. To put it out there. That's their job, and one that's made them valuable enough to be acquired by a media conglomerate.

Rather than be enraged that they did it, consider that someone had to tell TMZ this, and whoever it was, was verified as an authoritative source on the subject. If this was disclosed inappropriately, the blame should be on who disclosed it to a site dedicated to disseminating it.

SantaClaraHawk wrote:So regarding TMZ,

Their whole business model is being first to the scoop. To put it out there. That's their job, and one that's made them valuable enough to be acquired by a media conglomerate.

Rather than be enraged that they did it, consider that someone had to tell TMZ this, and whoever it was, was verified as an authoritative source on the subject. If this was disclosed inappropriately, the blame should be on who disclosed it to a site dedicated to disseminating it.

Agreed. One other thought here is there are apps like FlightRadar24 that will show aircrafts in the sky, their registration numbers, flight paths, departure/arrival locations, etc. I wonder if someone was tracking the helicopter knowing it was Kobe's and was able to get out ahead of any type of official investigation or something of that nature.

Super sad story. I've never been much of a basketball fan, but it's hard to look past Kobe's legacy and what he meant to the game and the world. Absolutely heartbreaking that one of his daughters, two other players and parents and coaches were also on board. RIP.

You're right JG.

This info could have been unearthed in many ways. The other casualties weren't reported by authorities initially either. Friends/family/schools and even mayors come out with SM posts that were seen as authoritative even though the officials had not divulged this.

Was in Alaska when a bird hit the rear rotor, we repaired it with duct tape so we could fly, we were 400 miles from base and nobody was going to get to us anytime soon, we were in the Bush so Grizzlies and Browns were all over, it was foggy and the Pipe line was between us in base and other obstacles we had the door open and everyone looking for pipeline, flying about 50 to 100 feet above the ground the whole way, scary 2 and a half hours since we could not go full speed, about 3/4's of the way back the fog finally burned off.

We came in above it all, but blind and in a copter is a scary situation.

There was some drinking going on that night, it was a Dry area and the smuggled in stuff was brought out in the hanger.

IndyHawk wrote:

ivotuk wrote:That's just crazy. I think maybe instead of shutting off the engine, he may have dumped the collective, letting the helicopter free fall. The Sikorsky S-76B I believe it was, has turbine engines, and you don't just shut those off and restart them. That's dangerous as there are a lot of things that can go wrong on a restart, and helicopters don't glide real well with no engine. You can still auto-rotate, and land, if you're in level terrain and good weather conditions.

After reading an article just now, it sounds like the pilot got vertigo, which is very easy to do in weather. It's worse in helicopters because they are inherently unstable. That's why IFR helos have auto pilot.

"Bryant's helicopter left Santa Ana in Orange County, south of Los Angeles, shortly after 9 a.m. and circled for a time just east of Interstate 5, near Glendale. Air traffic controllers noted poor visibility around Burbank, just to the north, and Van Nuys, to the northwest.

After holding up the helicopter for other aircraft, they cleared the Sikorsky S-76 to proceed north along Interstate 5 through Burbank before turning west to follow U.S Route 101, the Ventura Highway.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., the helicopter turned again, toward the southeast, and climbed to more than 2000 feet. It then descended and crashed into the hillside at about 1400 feet, according to data from Flightradar24.

When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 160 knots (184 mph) and descending at a rate of more than 4000 feet per minute, the data showed."

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/0 ... -choppers/

4000 feet per minute descent is extreme! That's a helicopter that is out of control.

What is the collective?
Another witness said he heard sputtering before the crash..
Does this indicate engine shutoff>failed to restart?

The collective is the control in your left hand. You lift up on it, and it increases lift. The cyclic is the one between your legs, in your right hand. Then there's the pedals which operate completely different from an airplanes rudder pedals.

The cyclic allows you to move the helicopter in any direction, and the pedals keep you facing the direction you want.

They were doing 160 knots, and descending at 4000 feet per minute which is really odd. If the engine quit, a pilot is trained to drop the collective immediately to preserve rotor speed, and descend at an optimum forward speed to keep the rotor speed up, or possibly increase it.

No idea what that speed would be for an S76, IIRC, the Bell 47 I trained in was only about 25mph.

Turbines don't usually sputter. They're either off, on, spooling up, or spooling down. They are the most dependable engine there is, because if you maintain them, they never quit.

The main thing that bothers me is that 4000 fpm rate of descent. IMHO, the engine either quit, or the pilot was not in control anymore.

JGfromtheNW wrote:

SantaClaraHawk wrote:So regarding TMZ,

Their whole business model is being first to the scoop. To put it out there. That's their job, and one that's made them valuable enough to be acquired by a media conglomerate.

Rather than be enraged that they did it, consider that someone had to tell TMZ this, and whoever it was, was verified as an authoritative source on the subject. If this was disclosed inappropriately, the blame should be on who disclosed it to a site dedicated to disseminating it.

Agreed. One other thought here is there are apps like FlightRadar24 that will show aircrafts in the sky, their registration numbers, flight paths, departure/arrival locations, etc. I wonder if someone was tracking the helicopter knowing it was Kobe's and was able to get out ahead of any type of official investigation or something of that nature.

Super sad story. I've never been much of a basketball fan, but it's hard to look past Kobe's legacy and what he meant to the game and the world. Absolutely heartbreaking that one of his daughters, two other players and parents and coaches were also on board. RIP.

I wonder if there were people o n scanners listening in? In one picture, it looked the weaken wreckage was close to a road and buildings. Maybe there were witnesses that called.

But how does someone get in contact with TMZ? And how do they confirm it?

Possibly CNN got the info through sources then sent it to their TMZ department and told them to run it? They would have to trust the source before running something that volatile.

Ivotuk, no one knows as TMZ hasn't revealed the source but this is an educated guess:

Scanners are everywhere plus the post-scanner apps. Info could have been broadcast over them.

But if not, TMZ is in the biz of monitoring celebrities. Knowing who knows them. It'd just take one person anywhere to say it was Kobe, and the rest of it could be rapidly put together.

This thread is a terrific tribute to the man...

ivotuk wrote:

IndyHawk wrote:

ivotuk wrote:That's just crazy. I think maybe instead of shutting off the engine, he may have dumped the collective, letting the helicopter free fall. The Sikorsky S-76B I believe it was, has turbine engines, and you don't just shut those off and restart them. That's dangerous as there are a lot of things that can go wrong on a restart, and helicopters don't glide real well with no engine. You can still auto-rotate, and land, if you're in level terrain and good weather conditions.

After reading an article just now, it sounds like the pilot got vertigo, which is very easy to do in weather. It's worse in helicopters because they are inherently unstable. That's why IFR helos have auto pilot.

"Bryant's helicopter left Santa Ana in Orange County, south of Los Angeles, shortly after 9 a.m. and circled for a time just east of Interstate 5, near Glendale. Air traffic controllers noted poor visibility around Burbank, just to the north, and Van Nuys, to the northwest.

After holding up the helicopter for other aircraft, they cleared the Sikorsky S-76 to proceed north along Interstate 5 through Burbank before turning west to follow U.S Route 101, the Ventura Highway.

Shortly after 9:40 a.m., the helicopter turned again, toward the southeast, and climbed to more than 2000 feet. It then descended and crashed into the hillside at about 1400 feet, according to data from Flightradar24.

When it struck the ground, the helicopter was flying at about 160 knots (184 mph) and descending at a rate of more than 4000 feet per minute, the data showed."

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/0 ... -choppers/

4000 feet per minute descent is extreme! That's a helicopter that is out of control.

What is the collective?
Another witness said he heard sputtering before the crash..
Does this indicate engine shutoff>failed to restart?

The collective is the control in your left hand. You lift up on it, and it increases lift. The cyclic is the one between your legs, in your right hand. Then there's the pedals which operate completely different from an airplanes rudder pedals.

The cyclic allows you to move the helicopter in any direction, and the pedals keep you facing the direction you want.

They were doing 160 knots, and descending at 4000 feet per minute which is really odd. If the engine quit, a pilot is trained to drop the collective immediately to preserve rotor speed, and descend at an optimum forward speed to keep the rotor speed up, or possibly increase it.

No idea what that speed would be for an S76, IIRC, the Bell 47 I trained in was only about 25mph.

Turbines don't usually sputter. They're either off, on, spooling up, or spooling down. They are the most dependable engine there is, because if you maintain them, they never quit.

The main thing that bothers me is that 4000 fpm rate of descent. IMHO, the engine either quit, or the pilot was not in control anymore.

Thanks for the imfo..
I understand planes a lot better..Helos I sure did not but now I know something.
I sure don't want to be in one,there is a lot going on in that cockpit.
I can't believe Kobe liked pulling pranks with one...

Very good read. But it is long.

The ultimate reason for the crash

Ditchey echoed other experts, including Bryant’s former pilot, in vouching for the quality of the helicopter. It was built in 1991, and “is not the newest version of that helicopter,” he said. “But in general, it’s a good, solid airplane.”

As for the Flight Radar 24 data, which seem to indicate a sudden nosedive, “I’d take that with a grain of salt,” Ditchey said. “I don’t know where they got that. It may be on the very edge of reliable signals. I wouldn’t believe that figure.”

If the data are accurate, Ditchey did raise one possibility. “If the pilot tries to climb very rapidly, the pilot is then putting heavy load on the rotor,” he explained. “What happens is, the rotor begins to stall, and then begins to slow down. And the only way you can correct that is to go down” – to execute an “autorotation” landing. “Otherwise, if the rotor slows down enough, you will crash. So that could explain the sudden rise and the sudden drop, [if] the main rotor stalled out. ...

“If the main rotor stalls, you just have to hope like hell you have enough room between you and the ground that you can autorotate.”

But Ditchey remains skeptical of the data. Added Browne: “It could indicate a mechanical problem. But I highly doubt it.”

Instead, they all point to the weather. And Ditchey, on this subject – admittedly with the benefit of hindsight – was unequivocal.

“I’m a pilot,” he said. “I flew in the navy for 14 years, actively. There are times when you just don’t go, you just don’t fly, unless there’s a damn good reason why.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/kobe-bryants-d ... 03911.html

KitsapGuy wrote:Very good read. But it is long.

The ultimate reason for the crash

Ditchey echoed other experts, including Bryant’s former pilot, in vouching for the quality of the helicopter. It was built in 1991, and “is not the newest version of that helicopter,” he said. “But in general, it’s a good, solid airplane.”

As for the Flight Radar 24 data, which seem to indicate a sudden nosedive, “I’d take that with a grain of salt,” Ditchey said. “I don’t know where they got that. It may be on the very edge of reliable signals. I wouldn’t believe that figure.”

If the data are accurate, Ditchey did raise one possibility. “If the pilot tries to climb very rapidly, the pilot is then putting heavy load on the rotor,” he explained. “What happens is, the rotor begins to stall, and then begins to slow down. And the only way you can correct that is to go down” – to execute an “autorotation” landing. “Otherwise, if the rotor slows down enough, you will crash. So that could explain the sudden rise and the sudden drop, [if] the main rotor stalled out. ...

“If the main rotor stalls, you just have to hope like hell you have enough room between you and the ground that you can autorotate.”

But Ditchey remains skeptical of the data. Added Browne: “It could indicate a mechanical problem. But I highly doubt it.”

Instead, they all point to the weather. And Ditchey, on this subject – admittedly with the benefit of hindsight – was unequivocal.

“I’m a pilot,” he said. “I flew in the navy for 14 years, actively. There are times when you just don’t go, you just don’t fly, unless there’s a damn good reason why.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/kobe-bryants-d ... 03911.html

That is the TRUTH. There are many times on the North Slope when I refused to fly because of weather, but other pilots did fly. I didn't care. Most of them had better equipped aircraft, or they were working in their area of expertise. There were some however that thought they could force a work day week in to a North Slope trip. Some of them aren't with us anymore. Most of them had big egos.

That's the first thing my dad taught me. "Your ego will kill you faster than anything else. Never do something just because someone else did."

He was a Veteran Pilot from WW2, the Berlin Airlift, and retired in 1961 after 20 years in the Air Force. Then he flew 14 years for Wien Air Alaska, and retired. Then he started his own Air Taxi, which is where I got in to flying commercially.

The story above sounds odd the way the pilot is describing it. Maybe the transcriptionist didn't copy it down properly. You can get "retreating blade stall" in a helicopter. That's when you're going too fast forward. Helicopter blades are basically a rotating wing. The advancing blade is going forward through the power of the engine, but it is also meeting the oncoming air, which increases it's lift.

The retreating blade is moving towards the back of the machine, thus creating less lift. That's why the advancing blade has less pitch, and the retreating blade has increased pitch. But at high speeds, the retreating blade has no air movement over it, thus no lift.

Imagine the blade is moving backwards at 180mph, and the helicopter is moving forwards at 180mph. The airspeed over the "retreating wing" is 0mph. No lift. That blade stalls, and the helicopter rolls over.

I too think it was the weather, but I'm also guessing that he got disoriented and stopped doing his instrument scan, My reasoning, he was coming out of the sky at 4000fpm and 160 knots. Those numbers likely came from his Transponder which near any populated area with an airport, is a required piece of equipment. I'm sure the pilot had the transponder set to a unique identifying number so the radar operator, and any other monitoring equipment would have had indentifying information including N number, airspeed, and rate of descent.

I could easily be wrong though. If he did stall the retreating blade, he'd fall out of the sky, but if he lost translational lift, or killed his rotor speed, he would likely be diving the helicopter. That forces air over the rotor blades, speeding them up again. That's what you need to safely auto-rotate, rotor speed.

It's complicated though. I did it a couple of times with an instructor, scary.

That Sound Engineer on the Extra video sounds like a legit witness.