What if the Sonics had kept Pippen?

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
I forgot they had him and was reminded of it "Last Dance".
My question is that if they had kept him,do the Sonic's win
Championship #2 and more?
I can see Perkins,Glove,Shremph,Kemp and Pippen doing
a lot together! Pip plays guard and Rodman comes
to Seattle.
One move could have done so much right? :cry:
 

Sports Hernia

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
44,755
Reaction score
3,372
Location
The pit
“No tippin’ Scotty Pippen”?

Sonics would have had another championship or 2.
 

Seanhawk

New member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
6,819
Reaction score
0
The Bulls would have still won 6. I've always thought Pippen was a good player, but very overrated.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
Seanhawk":1okrurgn said:
The Bulls would have still won 6. I've always thought Pippen was a good player, but very overrated.
A Pippen today would be among top 4 in the game - no doubt in my mind.
My thinking in making this post was ..The Sonics team who played the Bulls tough
in the finals would have won at least one Championship had they kept the pick.
As for him being very overrated back then?Hard to argue either way but the #33
the Blazers got was not the prime #33 of the Bulls.
 

sdog1981

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
3,367
Reaction score
240
There are some major "what-ifs" are being glossed over here.

1. The Sonics had two top 10 draft picks and blew it. The team was not well run in the late 80s.
2. Pippen was good, he was a top 5 pick, however, would he have gone to the all NBA level without a bully like Jordan pushing him and Phil Jackson/Doug Collins coaching him?
3. This is the 1980s pound it inside NBA. The Sonics already had Tom Chambers and X man on the roster, how many minutes would Pippen have played?

I think if the Sonics keep Pippen they just don't make a move for Detlef Schrempf and maybe get by Denver in the 1994 playoffs.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
sdog1981":1qo7vxb1 said:
There are some major "what-ifs" are being glossed over here.

1. The Sonics had two top 10 draft picks and blew it. The team was not well run in the late 80s.
2. Pippen was good, he was a top 5 pick, however, would he have gone to the all NBA level without a bully like Jordan pushing him and Phil Jackson/Doug Collins coaching him?
3. This is the 1980s pound it inside NBA. The Sonics already had Tom Chambers and X man on the roster, how many minutes would Pippen have played?

I think if the Sonics keep Pippen they just don't make a move for Detlef Schrempf and maybe get by Denver in the 1994 playoffs.
You are right about major 'what-if's"but it's ok since time has passed right?
Anyway speaking of time I'm not sure who the Sonics had at what year(s)
I mean X man was with the Knicks before Sonics-Bulls dance.
A player like Pippen who could play all spots depending on matchups is
starting on any Sonics/Bulls teams.
You do have a point though,does #23 make him much better than he would
have been otherwise?I'm curious that you said 80's pound inside?I'm talking
90's which saw the center spot being less of offensive focus,don't take it
wrong because there was plenty of inside action with the outside mixed in.
I miss that .. :irishdrinkers:
 

sdog1981

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
3,367
Reaction score
240
The core of the 1987-88 Sonics was Dale Ellis, Xavier McDaniel, and Nate McMillian. At that point all those players had been in the leauge for less than 5 years. With X-Man and Mac-10 having been in the league for 2 years and 1 year respectively. They also had Tom Chambers who was only 29 at the time playing major minutes. So due to that Pippen would have been the 6th man or not even drafted as the team felt it needed a guard or center.

The 1986-87 Bulls on the other had had their guards set with Jordan and Paxton. They needed forwards to help Charles Oakley. So they traded for Pippen and drafted Horace Grant. The Bulls also had Doug Collins, Phil Jackson and Tex Winter who wanted forwards that could pass and move.

So it was kind of the perfect marriage for Pippen to land with the Bulls with the right coachs and the right leadership on the team.

On the Sonics who knows if they draft Kemp when they had a guy like Pippen on the team, maybe they trade him to get gaurd help after they draft Kemp.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
Well you certainly know a lot about both teams but I think the Sonics would have kept
and found a way to use Pippen had they known he would be the kind of player he
became.I think X or Ellis goes and they still draft Kemp the following year.Also Detlef
was a core player as he was drafted in 84.
As for the Bulls Oakley was traded for Bill Cartwright and Grant was drafted to replace
Oak.
Of course if Bulls don't trade for Pippen it's hard to see how they get 6 titles but at the
same time my main point was it could have been the Sonics with multiple titles if they
keep Pippen not the Bulls..I think he was the wildcard for either team to get multiple titles.
It's fun going over this S..You have to be close to my age lol.
 

sdog1981

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
3,367
Reaction score
240
It is a fun what if. They Traded Pippen for Olden Polynice and Derrick McKey. It was a horrible trade just from that standpoint, even if Pippen turned out to be just a regular NBA SF. Horrible use of a top 5 pick.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
sdog1981":2dqlwzxo said:
It is a fun what if. They Traded Pippen for Olden Polynice and Derrick McKey. It was a horrible trade just from that standpoint, even if Pippen turned out to be just a regular NBA SF. Horrible use of a top 5 pick.
Oh I agree..Horrible trade!
 

hawkfan68

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
1,645
Location
Sammamish, WA
If they kept Pippen, probably would have taken them out of the running for Shawn Kemp and potentially Gary Payton. Glad it worked out the way it did.
 

SonicHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
12,166
Reaction score
3,977
It's really hard to navigate what Pippen's career would have been without Jordan. Those Bulls teams were just stellar up and down the first 7.

I honestly wonder more about what 1994 would have been like if they don't lose to Denver or 1997 in the loss to Houston. 1997 felt like it was our last chance.
 

sdog1981

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
3,367
Reaction score
240
SonicHawk":1pjf199v said:
It's really hard to navigate what Pippen's career would have been without Jordan. Those Bulls teams were just stellar up and down the first 7.

I honestly wonder more about what 1994 would have been like if they don't lose to Denver or 1997 in the loss to Houston. 1997 felt like it was our last chance.

Very much in line with what I was thinking. 1994 is the biggest "what if". 1997 Charles Barkley put on the finishing touches to his hall of fame career. He killed Kemp on the glass that series.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
hawkfan68":3v8a2i88 said:
If they kept Pippen, probably would have taken them out of the running for Shawn Kemp and potentially Gary Payton. Glad it worked out the way it did.
You said probaly BUT what if it didn't?That is multiple titles
that the Sonics get instead of the Bulls.
That's how much Pippen was worth.
 

hawkfan68

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
1,645
Location
Sammamish, WA
IndyHawk":5ekf3a00 said:
hawkfan68":5ekf3a00 said:
If they kept Pippen, probably would have taken them out of the running for Shawn Kemp and potentially Gary Payton. Glad it worked out the way it did.
You said probaly BUT what if it didn't?That is multiple titles
that the Sonics get instead of the Bulls.
That's how much Pippen was worth.

How many championships did Scottie Pippen win without Michael Jordan? He played without him on the Bulls for a couple of years in the mid-90s and then after he left the Bulls, he played for the Rockets and Trailblazers. He didn’t lead any team to a championship during his career. He was a very good player but not the best player in the league or even on his own teams.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
hawkfan68":1tfpq4rb said:
IndyHawk":1tfpq4rb said:
hawkfan68":1tfpq4rb said:
If they kept Pippen, probably would have taken them out of the running for Shawn Kemp and potentially Gary Payton. Glad it worked out the way it did.
You said probaly BUT what if it didn't?That is multiple titles
that the Sonics get instead of the Bulls.
That's how much Pippen was worth.

How many championships did Scottie Pippen win without Michael Jordan? He played without him on the Bulls for a couple of years in the mid-90s and then after he left the Bulls, he played for the Rockets and Trailblazers. He didn’t lead any team to a championship during his career. He was a very good player but not the best player in the league or even on his own teams.
I get that but let me say this:If Pippen is with Seattle,they never have to likely
face the only team that could beat them for the title right? :lol: :irishdrinkers:
 

Lagartixa

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
1,763
Reaction score
3,078
Location
Taboão da Serra, SP, Brazil
hawkfan68":o5ydc0s6 said:
How many championships did Scottie Pippen win without Michael Jordan? He played without him on the Bulls for a couple of years in the mid-90s and then after he left the Bulls, he played for the Rockets and Trailblazers. He didn’t lead any team to a championship during his career. He was a very good player but not the best player in the league or even on his own teams.

In '94, the Bulls were so close to beating the Knicks that basically one terrible call at the end of a game made the difference. The Bulls did much better than I expected that season. I can't honestly say they would have won the title if they'd made the NBA Finals, because that Rockets team was pretty good, but I do think they'd have beaten the Pacers in the Eastern Conference Finals, and I think they'd have at least given the Rockets as good a fight as the Knicks did, and considering how things happened leading up to that season (I'll say more about that below), the fight the Bulls gave the Knicks was pretty damn impressive.

The argument about winning championships without Jordan is wrong in multiple ways. How many championships did Jordan win without Pippen after Jordan came back with the team in DC? Answer: it doesn't matter, because neither player was the GM for the team on which he played. Additionally, when the Bulls lost Jordan in '93, it was right before teams were going to get together to start training for the '93-'94 season. I was at an ALCS game at Comiskey II, which was later renamed a few times for corporate sponsors, when the rumors started to circulate. By then, the free-agent market had been picked clean. The coaching staff had prepared the playbook thinking the team was going to have Jordan, and suddenly it didn't, so they basically had to rebuild the playbook on the fly, and with a Jordan-sized hole in the roster. The fact that the Bulls did as well as they did that season is a solid point in favor of Pippen, the other players on that roster, and Phil Jackson.

People don't understand how great Pippen really was. He was possibly the greatest perimeter defender the NBA has ever had. He was also an innovator of the "point forward" position. He made major contributions in all phases of the game. He's underappreciated largely because he had a teammate who was much more famous. I'm a Bulls fan (as painful as that's been since after the '98 NBA FInals) and I'll tell you that despite how great Jordan was and how great Phil Jackson was, at least some of those titles almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Pippen's enormous contribution.
 
OP
OP
IndyHawk

IndyHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
7,957
Reaction score
1,594
Lagartixa":2u8iifsh said:
hawkfan68":2u8iifsh said:
How many championships did Scottie Pippen win without Michael Jordan? He played without him on the Bulls for a couple of years in the mid-90s and then after he left the Bulls, he played for the Rockets and Trailblazers. He didn’t lead any team to a championship during his career. He was a very good player but not the best player in the league or even on his own teams.

In '94, the Bulls were so close to beating the Knicks that basically one terrible call at the end of a game made the difference. The Bulls did much better than I expected that season. I can't honestly say they would have won the title if they'd made the NBA Finals, because that Rockets team was pretty good, but I do think they'd have beaten the Pacers in the Eastern Conference Finals, and I think they'd have at least given the Rockets as good a fight as the Knicks did, and considering how things happened leading up to that season (I'll say more about that below), the fight the Bulls gave the Knicks was pretty damn impressive.

The argument about winning championships without Jordan is wrong in multiple ways. How many championships did Jordan win without Pippen after Jordan came back with the team in DC? Answer: it doesn't matter, because neither player was the GM for the team on which he played. Additionally, when the Bulls lost Jordan in '93, it was right before teams were going to get together to start training for the '93-'94 season. I was at an ALCS game at Comiskey II, which was later renamed a few times for corporate sponsors, when the rumors started to circulate. By then, the free-agent market had been picked clean. The coaching staff had prepared the playbook thinking the team was going to have Jordan, and suddenly it didn't, so they basically had to rebuild the playbook on the fly, and with a Jordan-sized hole in the roster. The fact that the Bulls did as well as they did that season is a solid point in favor of Pippen, the other players on that roster, and Phil Jackson.

People don't understand how great Pippen really was. He was possibly the greatest perimeter defender the NBA has ever had. He was also an innovator of the "point forward" position. He made major contributions in all phases of the game. He's underappreciated largely because he had a teammate who was much more famous. I'm a Bulls fan (as painful as that's been since after the '98 NBA FInals) and I'll tell you that despite how great Jordan was and how great Phil Jackson was, at least some of those titles almost certainly wouldn't have happened without Pippen's enormous contribution.
Good post with good imfo...BUT it doesn't answer my OP thought lol.
Anyway I have been to Sox games to see the Mariners,I was there
when Jr had the hr record in sights before that strike..It's a nice bp
very easy to get to from South Bend.
 
Top