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Conspiracy theory's anyone?

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Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:56 pm
  • Is there anyone on this board that follows conspiracy theories ? I've been researching conspiracy theories for years kind of a hobby of mine.


    I just found 3 video's that connect the JFK Assassination, RFK Assassination and the Manson murders to MK ultra which is a CIA Mind control operation...

    who wants to talk conspiracy theory's


    LTH
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:06 pm
  • LTH wrote:Is there anyone on this board that follows conspiracy theories ? I've been researching conspiracy theories for years kind of a hobby of mine.


    I just found 3 video's that connect the JFK Assassination, RFK Assassination and the Manson murders to MK ultra which is a CIA Mind control operation...

    who wants to talk conspiracy theory's


    LTH


    It's all the Illuminati. Or is it the Bilderberg group? Maybe Knights Templer or Freemasons.
    Last edited by chris98251 on Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:19 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    LTH wrote:Is there anyone on this board that follows conspiracy theories ? I've been researching conspiracy theories for years kind of a hobby of mine.


    I just found 3 video's that connect the JFK Assassination, RFK Assassination and the Manson murders to MK ultra which is a CIA Mind control operation...

    who wants to talk conspiracy theory's


    LTH


    It's all the Illuminati.


    I'm familiar with that theory... although It's really difficult to prove the illuminati even exist today... free masons? yes.

    But i find it VERY interesting that the CIA created MK ultra and the CIA used LSD to dose the Hippies in the 60's for a mass mind control to end the anti war movement...

    MODS is this going to be against the forum rules and be classified under politics?


    LTH
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:55 pm
  • How about Angela Merkel was Adolf h!tler's daughter?
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:15 pm
  • wow got me there i don't know who Angela Merkel is ill have to google it
    LTH
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:31 pm
  • LTH wrote:wow got me there i don't know who Angela Merkel is ill have to google it
    It was so far out, almost comical. But a percentage of our population believed it, may be because she was not respectful to the bestest president in our country's history.

    Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:36 am
  • I don't dwell in conspiracy theories, I dwell in actual conspiracies.

    Operation Northwoods - A plan organized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and proposed by Robert McNamara to then-President Kennedy, to stage a terrorist attack in Miami, to use as a pretext for invading Cuba. It is said that Kennedy debated $hit canning the lot of them for proposing it.

    Executive Order 11110 - An order issued by President Kennedy, which would have enabled the US Treasury to print silver certificates, thus bypassing the usual fed process for issuing money. It could have potentially resulted in a de-facto silver standard for our money, rather than the debt based notes we have today.

    Operation Mockingbird - Fully co-opted media apparatus, by intelligence agencies, mostly CIA. Everyone from Walter Cronkite to Peter Jennings was on the payroll. As were numerous individuals in print media. Pro-war messaging and narrative control was the soup du jour here. Allegedly this ended with the Church Commission hearings in the late 70s, but that's a bunch of crap. The media is overrun with spooks and foreign policy think tank plants.

    Operation Paperclip - Post WWII operation carried out by the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor to CIA), where naz** scientists, many of whom were wanted for war crimes, were given new names, identities, settled here in the USA, and worked to apply their science for the USA's war machine. Some of the most notorious, such as Josef Mengele, were allowed to flee to South America where they were given aid through various CIA cutout organizations. Rumor has it that h!tler and Eva Braun actually managed to escape Germany via u-boat in the final hours of the war. Documents exist suggesting he lived a long life in Colombia, and Eva Braun may have died as recently as 2012. I'm undecided, but think there's a strong possibility it's true.

    Project MKUltra - A CIA and Navy Intel black project where those involved sought to devise a means for influencing and/or controlling the human mind. While a vast majority of the documentation was destroyed despite being under Congressional subpoena, what we do know about this project is disturbing to say the least. Unethical human experimentation was undertaken and nobody ever saw a jail cell for it.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:47 am
  • How about a groundless Seahawks conspiracy?

    Pete is tanking the season to get a fresh start, he's tired of kowtowing to Russ, so he hired an under qualified OC just to screw with Russ. More or less drive him out of the team.

    Like all conspiracy theories, this one sounded totally out there. lol
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:49 pm
  • SmokinHawk wrote:I don't dwell in conspiracy theories, I dwell in actual conspiracies.

    Operation Northwoods - A plan organized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and proposed by Robert McNamara to then-President Kennedy, to stage a terrorist attack in Miami, to use as a pretext for invading Cuba. It is said that Kennedy debated $hit canning the lot of them for proposing it.

    Executive Order 11110 - An order issued by President Kennedy, which would have enabled the US Treasury to print silver certificates, thus bypassing the usual fed process for issuing money. It could have potentially resulted in a de-facto silver standard for our money, rather than the debt based notes we have today.

    Operation Mockingbird - Fully co-opted media apparatus, by intelligence agencies, mostly CIA. Everyone from Walter Cronkite to Peter Jennings was on the payroll. As were numerous individuals in print media. Pro-war messaging and narrative control was the soup du jour here. Allegedly this ended with the Church Commission hearings in the late 70s, but that's a bunch of crap. The media is overrun with spooks and foreign policy think tank plants.

    Operation Paperclip - Post WWII operation carried out by the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor to CIA), where naz** scientists, many of whom were wanted for war crimes, were given new names, identities, settled here in the USA, and worked to apply their science for the USA's war machine. Some of the most notorious, such as Josef Mengele, were allowed to flee to South America where they were given aid through various CIA cutout organizations. Rumor has it that h!tler and Eva Braun actually managed to escape Germany via u-boat in the final hours of the war. Documents exist suggesting he lived a long life in Colombia, and Eva Braun may have died as recently as 2012. I'm undecided, but think there's a strong possibility it's true.

    Project MKUltra - A CIA and Navy Intel black project where those involved sought to devise a means for influencing and/or controlling the human mind. While a vast majority of the documentation was destroyed despite being under Congressional subpoena, what we do know about this project is disturbing to say the least. Unethical human experimentation was undertaken and nobody ever saw a jail cell for it.



    I'm awear of ALL these theory's... My favorite being MK ultra which had 149 different operations... Have you read Chaos by Tom Oneil? this book attempts to connect Charles Manson to MK Ultra it is a fascinating read... especially where he connects RUBY ( the guy that Killed oswald) to MK ultra ... he ( Tom Oneil) was on Joe Rogan and they break the book down pretty well

    Here is a couple of really compelling video's

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hv5P4SwbU&t=318s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo1jemUQ6FM&t=2788s

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8Y7Y4H7n8&t=406s
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:49 am
  • SmokinHawk wrote:I don't dwell in conspiracy theories, I dwell in actual conspiracies.

    Operation Northwoods - A plan organized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and proposed by Robert McNamara to then-President Kennedy, to stage a terrorist attack in Miami, to use as a pretext for invading Cuba. It is said that Kennedy debated $hit canning the lot of them for proposing it.

    Executive Order 11110 - An order issued by President Kennedy, which would have enabled the US Treasury to print silver certificates, thus bypassing the usual fed process for issuing money. It could have potentially resulted in a de-facto silver standard for our money, rather than the debt based notes we have today.

    Operation Mockingbird - Fully co-opted media apparatus, by intelligence agencies, mostly CIA. Everyone from Walter Cronkite to Peter Jennings was on the payroll. As were numerous individuals in print media. Pro-war messaging and narrative control was the soup du jour here. Allegedly this ended with the Church Commission hearings in the late 70s, but that's a bunch of crap. The media is overrun with spooks and foreign policy think tank plants.

    Operation Paperclip - Post WWII operation carried out by the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor to CIA), where naz** scientists, many of whom were wanted for war crimes, were given new names, identities, settled here in the USA, and worked to apply their science for the USA's war machine. Some of the most notorious, such as Josef Mengele, were allowed to flee to South America where they were given aid through various CIA cutout organizations. Rumor has it that h!tler and Eva Braun actually managed to escape Germany via u-boat in the final hours of the war. Documents exist suggesting he lived a long life in Colombia, and Eva Braun may have died as recently as 2012. I'm undecided, but think there's a strong possibility it's true.

    Project MKUltra - A CIA and Navy Intel black project where those involved sought to devise a means for influencing and/or controlling the human mind. While a vast majority of the documentation was destroyed despite being under Congressional subpoena, what we do know about this project is disturbing to say the least. Unethical human experimentation was undertaken and nobody ever saw a jail cell for it.


    And of course lets NOT forget operation "midnight climax" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midnight_Climax

    This was a CIA operation in San Francisco in the 60's. It was established in order to study the effects of LSD on unconsenting individuals. Prostitutes on the CIA payroll were instructed to lure clients back to the safehouses, where they were surreptitiously plied with a wide range of substances, including LSD, and monitored behind one-way glass. The prostitutes were instructed in the use of post-coital questioning to investigate whether the victims could be convinced to involuntarily reveal secrets. The victims were sometimes fed subliminal messages in attempts to induce them to involuntary actions, including criminal activity such as robbery, assault, and assassination. Many of the CIA operatives involved in the experiments voluntarily indulged in the drugs and prostitutes for recreational purposes.[3] Additionally, information from Wilmington News Journal on October 15, 1978, reports from a FOIA request that, "the spy agency purchased two pounds of Yohimbine hydrochloride... by Dr. Robert V. Lashbrook, the chief aide to Dr. Sidney Gottlieb." The role of Dr. Lashbrook was to, "monitor and approve materials for Operation Midnight Climax

    Unbelievable!!!


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:44 pm
  • Got a few but they are political so we cannot talk about them.

    How about the “flat earth” conspiracy theory.
    Talk about nutters.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:16 pm
  • Sports Hernia wrote:Got a few but they are political so we cannot talk about them.

    How about the “flat earth” conspiracy theory.
    Talk about nutters.

    Anybody who thinks the Earth is flat should be rounded up and thrown off the edge. :twisted:
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:23 am
  • That Wenhawk brought back PMedic to be a Mod. Who gave Pmedic a Blue Crayon.......
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:47 am
  • IDK but the USS Nimitz Tic-Tac UFO encounter is pretty interesting. Guaranteed black ops. Over 3 trillion in unknown transactions unaccounted for in US DOD spending. Hmmmm
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:03 am
  • Just put this out there.

    The Philadelphia Experiment.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:28 am
  • Since it was the first major event that I can recall as a child (I was 9 years old at the time), I've always been fascinated by the JFK assassination and have watched numerous documentaries and read several books on the subject. The best book out there is without a doubt this one:

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Re ... rKTKDhvfkC

    The author is Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor that convicted Charles Manson. He was also the prosecutor of a mock criminal trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, tried in England so as to produce an impartial jury, opposed by Jerry Spence, a legendary trial lawyer, as the acting defense attorney.

    If you have an interest in this subject as I do, then this book is a must read. Extremely detailed, does a full biographical of all the major players, goes into all the conspiracy theories and government investigations.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:19 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:Since it was the first major event that I can recall as a child (I was 9 years old at the time), I've always been fascinated by the JFK assassination and have watched numerous documentaries and read several books on the subject. The best book out there is without a doubt this one:

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Re ... rKTKDhvfkC

    The author is Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor that convicted Charles Manson. He was also the prosecutor of a mock criminal trial of Lee Harvey Oswald, tried in England so as to produce an impartial jury, opposed by Jerry Spence, a legendary trial lawyer, as the acting defense attorney.

    If you have an interest in this subject as I do, then this book is a must read. Extremely detailed, does a full biographical of all the major players, goes into all the conspiracy theories and government investigations.



    Speaking of the JFK assassination i just watched a new documentary on show time that Oliver stone put out called JFK revisited looking through the looking glass. he has some new evidence and I thought it was very compelling..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Revis ... king_Glass

    I have not read the book you are talking about but as far as Vincent Bugllosi is concerned, Tom O'Neil the author of "Chaos" which is a book about the Manson Murders and what happened in the 60's, I would say that I take ANYTHING that Bugllosi says with a grain of salt if you believe what O'Neil says in his book. O'Neill pretty much proves that VB lied or mislead several aspects concerning the trial of Tate-LaBianca murders... not to mention the threats he made to O'Neill because O'Neil was uncovering his deception.

    O'Neil attempts to connect Manson to the CIA mind control program MK Ultra and although he cannot make certain connections in the book the evidence and documentation that he does have is mind blowing and VERY compelling.

    O'Neil lays it out in his interview with Joe Rogan... unfortunately I am unable to find the version that isn't broken up into separate segments as its a 3 hour interview but man I'm telling you it's really interesting stuff...

    https://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Tom-O-Neil ... B07S84VPXK


    LTH
    Last edited by LTH on Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:40 pm
  • LTH wrote:Speaking of the JFK assassination i just watched a new documentary on show time that Oliver stone put out called JFK revisited looking through the looking glass. he has some new evidence and I thought it was very compelling..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Revis ... king_Glass


    After watching Stone's "JFK", I was so disgusted that I swore I would never patronize another of his works. He completely fabricated scenes, used grainy black and white cinematography and mixed it in with actual footage to make it appear as if it were shot in 1963, completely misrepresented known facts such as the trajectory of the 3rd shot or "magic bullet", misplaced the positions of Kennedy and Connally in the limmo, had fictious characters in on the autopsy, and so on. It was a complete fantasy sold to the American public as a factual representation of the tragedy.

    LTH wrote:I have not read the book you are talking about but as far as Vincent Bugllosi is concerned, Tom O'Neil the author of "Chaos" which is a book about the Manson Murders and what happened in the 60's, I would say that I take ANYTHING that Bugllosi says with a grain of salt if you believe what O'Neil says in his book. O'Neil pretty much proves that VB lied several times in the trial of Tate-LaBianca murders...O'Neil attempts to connect Manson to the CIA mind control program MK Ultra and although he can not make certain connections in the book the evidence and documentation that he does have is mind blowing and VERY compelling.

    O'Neil lays it out in his interview with Joe Rogan... unfortunately I am unable to find the version that isn't broken up into separate segments as its a 3 hour interview but man I'm telling you it's really interesting stuff...LTH


    I'll take a peek at the book you recommended on the Manson murders. Thanks for the tip.

    I do want to enlighten you as to Bugliosi's qualifications as a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney:

    During his eight years in the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, he successfully prosecuted 105 out of 106 felony jury trials, which included 21 murder convictions.

    After leaving the Los Angeles district attorney's office in 1972, Bugliosi turned to private practice. He represented three criminal defendants, achieving acquittals for each of them—the most famous of which was Stephanie Stearns (referred to as "Jennifer Jenkins" in his book), whom he defended for the murder of Eleanor "Muff" Graham on Palmyra Atoll, a South Pacific island.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Bugliosi

    105 out of 106 ain't too shabby. By the time he wrote the book, Bugliosi was arguably the most successful and respected criminal prosecutor in the country and supremely qualified to write on the subject.

    Believe me, I've seen a lot of documentaries and investigative reports on the JFK assassination. I've read the entire Warren Commission report, the final report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and the Rockefeller Commission report. The books I've read include Six Seconds in Dallas by Josiah Thompson, Crossfire by Jim Marrs, Case Closed by Gerald Posner, The Lost Bullet by the National Geographic, Four Days in November, which is actually the first section of the book I've referenced. My interest in the subject was re-kindled when I saw a documentary on PBS's Nova hosted by none other than Walter Cronkite on the 20th anniversary of the assassination in 1983. I must have seen replays of the Zapruder film a thousand times.

    Sorry for reading you my resume, but my point is that I've read and seen a lot of material on this event, and believe me, regardless of any other issues or subjects Bugliosi may have been involved in (he also wrote a very controversial book on George W. Bush and the Iraq war), he has by far the most exhaustive work on the subject with interviews of actual witnesses, FBI and police reports, and checks out all of the major conspiracy theories. It is well footnoted and referenced.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:30 pm
  • Yeah I personally don't know much about him but and what the book he wrote might be right on all I know is that what O'Neil wrote about him was indeed compelling to say the least...and it makes me take a step back and say whoa...the easy way to hear what he is saying is to go look at that Joe Rogan interview it's all broken down into segments... if you can't find it let me know I'll dig it up for you but I'm telling you it was very interesting.

    Here is the link to tom O'Neills book

    https://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Tom-O-Neil ... B07S84VPXK

    the Rogan interview is just a taste into it, in the book is lots of footnotes and documentation that is important for the understanding of what he is saying


    LTH
    Last edited by LTH on Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:51 pm
  • LTH wrote:Yeah I personally don't know much about him but and what the book he wrote might be right on all I know is that what O'Neil wrote about him was indeed compelling to say the least...and it makes me take a step back and say whoa...the easy way to hear what he is saying is to go look at that joe rogan interview its all broken down into segments... if you can't find it let me know I'll dig it up for you but I'm telling you it was very interesting..


    LTH


    If you can find it, I'll give it a look.

    Bear in mind that I am not basing my opinion solely on Bugliosi's book. Posner's "Case Closed" is extremely well done and very compelling as well.

    I've gone back and forth on the issue. I was leaning heavily towards conspiracy when I saw the HSCA testimony in the late 70's of this scientist speaking in the monotone, Dragnet voice, look straight ahead and without blinking that "with a 95% probability, there was, indeed, a shot fired from the grassy knoll" until I saw the Nova episode in '83 where they dissected the acoustical evidence presented in the HSCA hearing of which none of the scientists that appeared in the hearing have ever defended their work and of which the National Academy of Sciences rejected their evidence as invalid, took the stretcher bullet and matched it with fragments found in Connelly's body, interviews of the IR doctors that first treated Kennedy, analysis of the backward motion of Kennedy's head as shown in the Zapruder film, and so on. Bugliosi's was one of the last works that I saw, and it was more of a confirmation of what I had already been convinced of as opposed to a mind changing revelation.

    I appreciate your conversation on this subject. It truly has been a fascination of mine for my entire adult life.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:21 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:Yeah I personally don't know much about him but and what the book he wrote might be right on all I know is that what O'Neil wrote about him was indeed compelling to say the least...and it makes me take a step back and say whoa...the easy way to hear what he is saying is to go look at that joe rogan interview its all broken down into segments... if you can't find it let me know I'll dig it up for you but I'm telling you it was very interesting..


    LTH


    If you can find it, I'll give it a look.

    Bear in mind that I am not basing my opinion solely on Bugliosi's book. Posner's "Case Closed" is extremely well done and very compelling as well.

    I've gone back and forth on the issue. I was leaning heavily towards conspiracy when I saw the HSCA testimony in the late 70's of this scientist speaking in the monotone, Dragnet voice, look straight ahead and without blinking that "with a 95% probability, there was, indeed, a shot fired from the grassy knoll" until I saw the Nova episode in '83 where they dissected the acoustical evidence presented in the HSCA hearing of which none of the scientists that appeared in the hearing have ever defended their work, took the stretcher bullet and matched it with fragments found in Connelly's body, interviews of the IR doctors that first treated Kennedy, analysis of the backward motion of Kennedy's head as shown in the Zapruder film, and so on. Bugliosi's was one of the last works that I saw, and it was more of a confirmation of what I had already been convinced of as opposed to a mind changing revelation.

    I appreciate your conversation on this subject. It truly has been a fascination of mine for my entire adult life.



    Ok here it is this is just a short version of the entire interview

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWS4edKmz2Q&t=120s

    here is the full pod cast the only place i can find it is spotify

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/4OXGSwuHYf0gHtJxGWIbLL

    as far as Kennedy is concerned I am 100% sure it was a conspiracy... there is no doubt in my mind...it was the greatest injustice in US history...

    let me know what u think about O'Neil

    and as far as Stone is concerned I know you don't like him much but he has some interesting points and evidence in his new doc it's definately worth watching I just watched it last night..


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:43 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:Speaking of the JFK assassination i just watched a new documentary on show time that Oliver stone put out called JFK revisited looking through the looking glass. he has some new evidence and I thought it was very compelling..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Revis ... king_Glass


    After watching Stone's "JFK", I was so disgusted that I swore I would never patronize another of his works. He completely fabricated scenes, used grainy black and white cinematography and mixed it in with actual footage to make it appear as if it were shot in 1963, completely misrepresented known facts such as the trajectory of the 3rd shot or "magic bullet", misplaced the positions of Kennedy and Connally in the limmo, had fictious characters in on the autopsy, and so on. It was a complete fantasy sold to the American public as a factual representation of the tragedy.

    LTH wrote:I have not read the book you are talking about but as far as Vincent Bugllosi is concerned, Tom O'Neil the author of "Chaos" which is a book about the Manson Murders and what happened in the 60's, I would say that I take ANYTHING that Bugllosi says with a grain of salt if you believe what O'Neil says in his book. O'Neil pretty much proves that VB lied several times in the trial of Tate-LaBianca murders...O'Neil attempts to connect Manson to the CIA mind control program MK Ultra and although he can not make certain connections in the book the evidence and documentation that he does have is mind blowing and VERY compelling.

    O'Neil lays it out in his interview with Joe Rogan... unfortunately I am unable to find the version that isn't broken up into separate segments as its a 3 hour interview but man I'm telling you it's really interesting stuff...LTH


    I'll take a peek at the book you recommended on the Manson murders. Thanks for the tip.

    I do want to enlighten you as to Bugliosi's qualifications as a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney:

    During his eight years in the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office, he successfully prosecuted 105 out of 106 felony jury trials, which included 21 murder convictions.

    After leaving the Los Angeles district attorney's office in 1972, Bugliosi turned to private practice. He represented three criminal defendants, achieving acquittals for each of them—the most famous of which was Stephanie Stearns (referred to as "Jennifer Jenkins" in his book), whom he defended for the murder of Eleanor "Muff" Graham on Palmyra Atoll, a South Pacific island.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Bugliosi

    105 out of 106 ain't too shabby. By the time he wrote the book, Bugliosi was arguably the most successful and respected criminal prosecutor in the country and supremely qualified to write on the subject.

    Believe me, I've seen a lot of documentaries and investigative reports on the JFK assassination. I've read the entire Warren Commission report, the final report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, and the Rockefeller Commission report. The books I've read include Six Seconds in Dallas by Josiah Thompson, Crossfire by Jim Marrs, Case Closed by Gerald Posner, The Lost Bullet by the National Geographic, Four Days in November, which is actually the first section of the book I've referenced. My interest in the subject was re-kindled when I saw a documentary on PBS's Nova hosted by none other than Walter Cronkite on the 20th anniversary of the assassination in 1983. I must have seen replays of the Zapruder film a thousand times.

    Sorry for reading you my resume, but my point is that I've read and seen a lot of material on this event, and believe me, regardless of any other issues or subjects Bugliosi may have been involved in (he also wrote a very controversial book on George W. Bush and the Iraq war), he has by far the most exhaustive work on the subject with interviews of actual witnesses, FBI and police reports, and checks out all of the major conspiracy theories. It is well footnoted and referenced.


    Wait.... you believe the magic bullet theory? REALLY?


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:39 pm
  • LTH wrote:Wait.... you believe the magic bullet theory? REALLY?

    LTH


    Well, it's commonly referred to as the single bullet theory, except that it's not much of a theory anymore. It's the only explanation that accounts for all the wounds and other evidence that has been collected and analyzed.

    Here's an article from the Rolling Stone about Oliver Stone's latest work, including the quote I like best:

    I can tell you for a fact that our democracy is suffocating under an avalanche of disinformation. Trump won the 2020 election! Covid vaccines are seeded with microchips! Democrats are blood-sucking pedo communists! 9/11 was an inside job! Our body politic is being poisoned by lies. They stalk the land like brain-eating zombies. And we can’t seem to kill them.

    We have a moral obligation to call bull $h!t when we see it. Especially when public figures promote lies for profit. Stone’s JFK films are fantasies. Conspiracy theories are not facts. They’re a kind of collective psychosis. And they’re driving our country down the road to hell.


    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... n-1260223/
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:54 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:Wait.... you believe the magic bullet theory? REALLY?

    LTH


    Well, it's commonly referred to as the single bullet theory, except that it's not much of a theory anymore. It's the only explanation that accounts for all the wounds and other evidence that has been collected and analyzed.

    Here's an article from the Rolling Stone about Oliver Stone's latest work, including the quote I like best:

    I can tell you for a fact that our democracy is suffocating under an avalanche of disinformation. Trump won the 2020 election! Covid vaccines are seeded with microchips! Democrats are blood-sucking pedo communists! 9/11 was an inside job! Our body politic is being poisoned by lies. They stalk the land like brain-eating zombies. And we can’t seem to kill them.

    We have a moral obligation to call bull $h!t when we see it. Especially when public figures promote lies for profit. Stone’s JFK films are fantasies. Conspiracy theories are not facts. They’re a kind of collective psychosis. And they’re driving our country down the road to hell.


    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... n-1260223/




    Now that is VERY interesting!!

    thanks for sharing that!

    Im curious to your take on Allen Dulles and why it was a good idea to have this man on the warren commission? thoughts?




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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:29 pm
  • One of the things I know I have read is the reaction of those hit Secret Service and JFK when the bullets hit the impact causes a physical reaction, the science shows the angle and direction are different in some of the impacts from where Oswald was.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:16 pm
  • Epstein didn't kill himself.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:40 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:One of the things I know I have read is the reaction of those hit Secret Service and JFK when the bullets hit the impact causes a physical reaction, the science shows the angle and direction are different in some of the impacts from where Oswald was.


    Any body that knows anything about guns can tell you that a bullet that went through bone especially twice is going to be badly deformed not perfect like the bullet they claim h it jfk and connelly.. heck even Connely doesn't believe the one bullet theory


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:33 am
  • chris98251 wrote:One of the things I know I have read is the reaction of those hit Secret Service and JFK when the bullets hit the impact causes a physical reaction, the science shows the angle and direction are different in some of the impacts from where Oswald was.


    LTH wrote:Any body that knows anything about guns can tell you that a bullet that went through bone especially twice is going to be badly deformed not perfect like the bullet they claim h it jfk and connelly.. heck even Connely doesn't believe the one bullet theory


    LTH


    Not true. First of all, the stretcher bullet (CE 399) is not 'perfect'. When viewed from behind, it shows significant, noticeable deformities in it at its base. Secondly, they have test fired the exact same ammo from the same make and model LHO used through various items, including human cadavers, blocks of wood, etc, and while some bullets did receive major damage, others remained relatively pristine similar to CE 399:

    Several of the same type 6.5 millimeter test bullets were test-fired by the Warren Commission investigators. The test bullet that most matched the slight side flattening and nearly pristine, still rounded impact tip of CE 399 was a bullet that had only been fired into a long tube containing a thick layer of cotton. Later tests show that such bullets survive intact when fired into solid wood and multiple layers of skin and ballistic gel, as well.

    Subsequent investigations, such as the Discovery Channel's documentary "Beyond the Magic Bullet" have shown the same thing:

    The test bullet, just like 399, emerged PERFECTLY WHOLE (i.e., not fragmented at all). It's all in ONE PIECE. It's flattened more than 399, sure....but certainly not banged all to hell like Dr. Cyril Wecht seems to think a bullet like 399 would HAVE to have been if it went through the bodies of both Jack Kennedy and John Connally and caused
    seven wounds; and the "test" bullet caused an extra (2nd) rib fracture within the John Connally mock-up "body" during the re-creation as well.

    The nose portion of the test bullet wasn't flattened at all either, which is an important factor, indicating almost certainly it took a similar path through John Connally's "mock" torso in the test, just as CE399 most-likely took through JBC's real torso in 1963 -- indicating a bullet that smashed into most of the hard objects that it hit in a BACKWARD, END-FIRST manner, thereby keeping the nose undamaged.


    https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspir ... Vz5peIdWkJ

    I've seen other tests with bullets being fired through blocks of gelatin simulating Kennedy's neck that shows bullets beginning to tumble. Bullets, while aerodynamic, are not perfectly balanced. They are more massive at the base than they are at the nose, so when rapidly slowed down, the base wants to continue forward so the nose starts to pitch, meaning it will enter the next object at random, sometimes nose forward, sometimes ass backwards. Striking an object with the more massive base facing forward creates less damage to the projectile when it hits a 2nd object (Connelly) than it does nose forward. That would explain why some bullets in the experiment would show significant damage to the nose whereas others would result in the nose remaining undamaged and show deformities at their base, as was the case with CE 399.

    As far as Connelly's recollections go, yes, you are correct in that he believed to have been struck by a separate bullet. However, it is not at all uncommon for a person to have a delayed reaction to a traumatic injury like a bullet wound and could give him the impression that he and JFK were struck by separate shots. The Zapruder film does show his reflexes being activated (he was clutching his Stetson) at the moment the bullet struck.
    Last edited by RiverDog on Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:14 am
  • RiverDog wrote:Well, it's commonly referred to as the single bullet theory, except that it's not much of a theory anymore. It's the only explanation that accounts for all the wounds and other evidence that has been collected and analyzed.

    Here's an article from the Rolling Stone about Oliver Stone's latest work, including the quote I like best:

    I can tell you for a fact that our democracy is suffocating under an avalanche of disinformation. Trump won the 2020 election! Covid vaccines are seeded with microchips! Democrats are blood-sucking pedo communists! 9/11 was an inside job! Our body politic is being poisoned by lies. They stalk the land like brain-eating zombies. And we can’t seem to kill them.

    We have a moral obligation to call bull $h!t when we see it. Especially when public figures promote lies for profit. Stone’s JFK films are fantasies. Conspiracy theories are not facts. They’re a kind of collective psychosis. And they’re driving our country down the road to hell.


    https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... n-1260223/




    LTH wrote:Now that is VERY interesting!!

    thanks for sharing that!

    Im curious to your take on Allen Dulles and why it was a good idea to have this man on the warren commission? thoughts?

    LTH


    Dulles was the former director of the CIA and served in that position longer than anyone else. There was some controversy in the appointment in that Kennedy had more or less fired Dulles in the aftermath of the failed Bay of Pigs invasion, threatening to ,"splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.", something he did not follow through on and to the contrary, relied heavily on during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Johnson obviously felt that it was important to have a person that was familiar with CIA operations and possible Cuban and/or Russian involvement in the assassination on the commission, and no one was more qualified than Allen Dulles.

    LBJ did his best to appoint a wide variety of members to the Warren Commission, balancing it with both R's and D's (2 R's and 2 D's) at times having to do some major arm twisting. Desiring a southern Democrat, Johnson decided on his mentor, Sen. Richard Russell, who hated the liberal Earl Warren and didn't want to serve with him. Johnson told him "I don't care if you don't like him, you're God damn gonna serve your country!", or something to that effect, and threatened to public announce appointing Russell to the commission and force him to have to openly reject it. Classic LBJ.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:54 am
  • There is a lot of conflicting information out there it just depends on who you believe. I by no means am a ballistic expert...but tests have also been done that say the opposite of what you're saying...Dr. Cyril Wecht is a passionate man in his belief that's for sure...

    In my mind there is not a doubt that there was more than 1 shooter and I'm sure I could lay evidence out there and you could come up with reasons why it's not valid that's what makes a great conspiracy theory great...

    more later got to go... you should check out that Oliver stone doc... its on showtime it the only place I could find it...
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:53 am
  • LTH wrote:There is a lot of conflicting information out there it just depends on who you believe. I by no means am a ballistic expert...but tests have also been done that say the opposite of what you're saying...Dr. Cyril Wecht is a passionate man in his belief that's for sure...

    In my mind there is not a doubt that there was more than 1 shooter and I'm sure I could lay evidence out there and you could come up with reasons why it's not valid that's what makes a great conspiracy theory great...

    more later got to go... you should check out that Oliver stone doc... its on showtime it the only place I could find it...


    Much of what you say is true. However, I want to point out that after more than 58 years and countless investigations, both official government investigations as well as privately financed ones, examining this event in as many possible angles that the most creative and imaginative minds can possibly conceive, there has been no credible evidence that has surfaced that either confirms any of the dozens of conspiracy theories or rules out LHO as the lone assassin.

    However, there does exist undeniable photographic evidence, ballistic evidence, autopsy findings, computerized reenactments, and eyewitness testimony (for example, the vast majority of ear witnesses identified the SE corner of the TSBD as the lone source of the gunfire) that all point to LHO acting alone.

    I have read many different opinions on the event along with many of the conspiracy theories (my favorite is the Cubans in the storm sewer) and am open to hearing other POV's, but as I said earlier, I refuse to patronize Oliver Stone. He sullied my confidence in him as an objective source with his naked attempt to re-write history in his film "JFK". If it were anyone else, I'd be happy to check it out.

    Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this subject. You represent yourself well as an intelligent and respectful individual.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:09 am
  • Everyone knows it was this guy:

    Image
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:05 pm
  • sutz wrote:Everyone knows it was this guy:

    Image



    Crap... who is that guy? LMAO!!!


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:08 pm
  • sutz wrote:Everyone knows it was this guy:

    Image


    Well there is eveidence it wsa this one.

    Image
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:23 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:There is a lot of conflicting information out there it just depends on who you believe. I by no means am a ballistic expert...but tests have also been done that say the opposite of what you're saying...Dr. Cyril Wecht is a passionate man in his belief that's for sure...

    In my mind there is not a doubt that there was more than 1 shooter and I'm sure I could lay evidence out there and you could come up with reasons why it's not valid that's what makes a great conspiracy theory great...

    more later got to go... you should check out that Oliver stone doc... its on showtime it the only place I could find it...


    Much of what you say is true. However, I want to point out that after more than 58 years and countless investigations, both official government investigations as well as privately financed ones, examining this event in as many possible angles that the most creative and imaginative minds can possibly conceive, there has been no credible evidence that has surfaced that either confirms any of the dozens of conspiracy theories or rules out LHO as the lone assassin.

    However, there does exist undeniable photographic evidence, ballistic evidence, autopsy findings, computerized reenactments, and eyewitness testimony (for example, the vast majority of ear witnesses identified the SE corner of the TSBD as the lone source of the gunfire) that all point to LHO acting alone.

    I have read many different opinions on the event along with many of the conspiracy theories (my favorite is the Cubans in the storm sewer) and am open to hearing other POV's, but as I said earlier, I refuse to patronize Oliver Stone. He sullied my confidence in him as an objective source with his naked attempt to re-write history in his film "JFK". If it were anyone else, I'd be happy to check it out.

    Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this subject. You represent yourself well as an intelligent and respectful individual.


    I enjoy the conversation as well and I'm not done I'm just busy with other things... but I do want to say that even though you don't like stone I encourage you to watch it anyway because I'm VERY curious how you would view his most current information ... stuff like the CIA had been watc hing every move of LHO right up to the shooting this is all documented... so if thats the case then why did LHO get the chance to shoot JFK? very interesting huh?



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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:48 pm
  • LTH wrote:
    RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:There is a lot of conflicting information out there it just depends on who you believe. I by no means am a ballistic expert...but tests have also been done that say the opposite of what you're saying...Dr. Cyril Wecht is a passionate man in his belief that's for sure...

    In my mind there is not a doubt that there was more than 1 shooter and I'm sure I could lay evidence out there and you could come up with reasons why it's not valid that's what makes a great conspiracy theory great...

    more later got to go... you should check out that Oliver stone doc... its on showtime it the only place I could find it...


    Much of what you say is true. However, I want to point out that after more than 58 years and countless investigations, both official government investigations as well as privately financed ones, examining this event in as many possible angles that the most creative and imaginative minds can possibly conceive, there has been no credible evidence that has surfaced that either confirms any of the dozens of conspiracy theories or rules out LHO as the lone assassin.

    However, there does exist undeniable photographic evidence, ballistic evidence, autopsy findings, computerized reenactments, and eyewitness testimony (for example, the vast majority of ear witnesses identified the SE corner of the TSBD as the lone source of the gunfire) that all point to LHO acting alone.

    I have read many different opinions on the event along with many of the conspiracy theories (my favorite is the Cubans in the storm sewer) and am open to hearing other POV's, but as I said earlier, I refuse to patronize Oliver Stone. He sullied my confidence in him as an objective source with his naked attempt to re-write history in his film "JFK". If it were anyone else, I'd be happy to check it out.

    Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this subject. You represent yourself well as an intelligent and respectful individual.


    I enjoy the conversation as well and I'm not done I'm just busy with other things... but I do want to say that even though you don't like stone I encourage you to watch it anyway because I'm VERY curious how you would view his most current information ... stuff like the CIA had been watc hing every move of LHO right up to the shooting this is all documented... so if thats the case then why did LHO get the chance to shoot JFK? very interesting huh?



    LTH


    Well the Kennedy's had pissed off and was going after just about everyone, Organized crime, Russians, Union bosses, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon and the Republicans, why it is so hard to really pin stuff down, there are so many that had a motive and had the power to pull it off, deflect and place blame where they wanted. To look at the supposed killer getting shot and his shooter getting shot as well is pretty deep conspiracy and I think more then a coincidence.

    Especially with all the levels of security they had placed from the Secret Service to FBI, CIA and Local police departments.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:35 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:Well the Kennedy's had pissed off and was going after just about everyone, Organized crime, Russians, Union bosses, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon and the Republicans, why it is so hard to really pin stuff down, there are so many that had a motive and had the power to pull it off, deflect and place blame where they wanted. To look at the supposed killer getting shot and his shooter getting shot as well is pretty deep conspiracy and I think more then a coincidence.

    Especially with all the levels of security they had placed from the Secret Service to FBI, CIA and Local police departments.


    Like any powerful man, there were lots of groups and individuals that had a motivation to bump off Kennedy. I've seen speculation run from the Cubans, the Russians, LBJ, George HW Bush, et al. Finding a motive is the easiest part of this case.

    One of the more legitimate criticisms of the Warren Commission was that they did not have the full cooperation of various government agencies such as the CIA. There were all sorts of turf battles between them, the FBI, the DOD, and the Secret Service (the FBI falls under the Justice Department, CIA under Defense, while the Secret Service answers to Treasury).

    A good example is that there was an FBI agent in the Dallas office that had been following Oswald for several months before the assassination. He wrote up a report, submitted it to his supervisor, and fearing that if anything that would suggest that the FBI had prior knowledge that a known subversive was in the Dallas area and that they did not pursue it were to surface that Hoover, who regarded the FBI as his own personal fiefdom, would 'lose it.' He was instructed to burn his report and never say a word about it, which he didn't for 12 years until he testified in the HSCA hearings in the mid 70's.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:55 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Well the Kennedy's had pissed off and was going after just about everyone, Organized crime, Russians, Union bosses, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon and the Republicans, why it is so hard to really pin stuff down, there are so many that had a motive and had the power to pull it off, deflect and place blame where they wanted. To look at the supposed killer getting shot and his shooter getting shot as well is pretty deep conspiracy and I think more then a coincidence.

    Especially with all the levels of security they had placed from the Secret Service to FBI, CIA and Local police departments.


    Like any powerful man, there were lots of groups and individuals that had a motivation to bump off Kennedy. I've seen speculation run from the Cubans, the Russians, LBJ, George HW Bush, et al. Finding a motive is the easiest part of this case.

    One of the more legitimate criticisms of the Warren Commission was that they did not have the full cooperation of various government agencies such as the CIA. There were all sorts of turf battles between them, the FBI, the DOD, and the Secret Service (the FBI falls under the Justice Department, CIA under Defense, while the Secret Service answers to Treasury).

    A good example is that there was an FBI agent in the Dallas office that had been following Oswald for several months before the assassination. He wrote up a report, submitted it to his supervisor, and fearing that if anything that would suggest that the FBI had prior knowledge that a known subversive was in the Dallas area and that they did not pursue it were to surface that Hoover, who regarded the FBI as his own personal fiefdom, would 'lose it.' He was instructed to burn his report and never say a word about it, which he didn't for 12 years until he testified in the HSCA hearings in the mid 70's.


    The CIA was watching him like a Hawk. if thats the case then how was he allowed to even take the supposed shots? So we are supposed to believe that LHO being monitored by the CIA , his every move, that Oswald just brought a rifle to work and shot JFK and the CIA knew nothing about it?
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:03 pm
  • LTH wrote:I enjoy the conversation as well and I'm not done I'm just busy with other things... but I do want to say that even though you don't like stone I encourage you to watch it anyway because I'm VERY curious how you would view his most current information ... stuff like the CIA had been watc hing every move of LHO right up to the shooting this is all documented... so if thats the case then why did LHO get the chance to shoot JFK? very interesting huh?

    LTH


    Not really.

    I know that the CIA was aware that Oswald had attempted to get a visa to Cuba. Just a few months before the assassination, Oswald took a bus to Mexico City and went to the Cuban Embassy and when they said no, he went to the Russian Embassy in an attempt to get a visa to go back to Russia. The CIA hid this information from the Warren Commission and others because they did not want the Russians to know that they had their Mexican embassy under surveillance, a stupid reason because the Russians likely assumed that they did.

    The FBI had been tailing Oswald since he was living in New Orleans and got into a scuffle and was arrested while handing out pro Cuba literature. James Hosty, the Dallas agent that had been assigned Oswald's case, along with some 30 or 40 other cases, had attempted to find out where Oswald was living and had talked to Ruth Paine, who had taken in Oswald's estranged wife. I'd have to check, but I think that Hosty was even aware that Oswald was working in the TSBD as Mrs. Paine had helped Oswald get a job there. Hosty wanted to wait until the file on Oswald was transferred to him from the New Orleans office so he could do a proper interview with Oswald's wife when the assassination occurred.

    Like I said in the previous post, the two agencies were not working together, nor were they working with local law enforcement. No one ever connected the dots.

    Note: I'm not referring to anything, just winging it based on my own knowledge, so I'm not going to swear to the complete accuracy of my remarks. And just for you, I'll check out Stone's latest fabrication. But you owe me one, so check out Bugliosi's book. :D
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:20 pm
  • LTH wrote:The CIA was watching him like a Hawk. if thats the case then how was he allowed to even take the supposed shots? So we are supposed to believe that LHO being monitored by the CIA , his every move, that Oswald just brought a rifle to work and shot JFK and the CIA knew nothing about it?


    I wouldn't characterize it as "watching him like a hawk." I can't speak to the CIA's knowledge of Oswald beyond his Mexico City trip, but the FBI, as I stated above, did have an agent working on his case. There is no doubt that there were monumental f-ups that various government agencies committed before, during, and after the assassination. But that doesn't mean that there was a conspiracy.

    FYI Oswald started working at the TSBD two weeks before details of Kennedy's trip to Dallas were finalized. As a matter of fact, Oswald almost got a job at a location far away from the parade route, and would have if the hiring supervisor hadn't found out that Oswald had gotten fired from a similar job when he was living in New Orleans.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:28 pm
  • RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:The CIA was watching him like a Hawk. if thats the case then how was he allowed to even take the supposed shots? So we are supposed to believe that LHO being monitored by the CIA , his every move, that Oswald just brought a rifle to work and shot JFK and the CIA knew nothing about it?


    I wouldn't characterize it as "watching him like a hawk." I can't speak to the CIA's knowledge of Oswald beyond his Mexico City trip, but the FBI, as I stated above, did have an agent working on his case. There is no doubt that there were monumental f-ups that various government agencies committed before, during, and after the assassination. But that doesn't mean that there was a conspiracy.

    FYI Oswald started working at the TSBD two weeks before details of Kennedy's trip to Dallas were finalized. As a matter of fact, Oswald almost got a job at a location far away from the parade route, and would have if the hiring supervisor hadn't found out that Oswald had gotten fired from a similar job when he was living in New Orleans.


    the cia was watching his every move what Stone reported in his movie... and they have documentation to prove it.. just saying what I heard...

    Does VB have a video out with a summary of his book cause I'm already reading something and its long...


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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:33 pm
  • cymatica wrote:Epstein didn't kill himself.

    So true. Since we can’t get into politics, let’s just say many powerful people currently in and just recently in government jobs wanted him dead, since he had dirt on all of them.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:38 pm
  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    cymatica wrote:Epstein didn't kill himself.

    So true. Since we can’t get into politics, let’s just say many powerful people currently in and just recently in government jobs wanted him dead, since he had dirt on all of them.

    Knowing 'where the bodies are buried' is a good way to become one of them. :twisted:
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:21 pm
  • LTH wrote:Does VB have a video out with a summary of his book cause I'm already reading something and its long...


    LTH


    Try this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Histo ... 375&sr=8-1

    It's a very long book. The first part, "Four Days in November", is a minute-by-minute description of the assassination, from the morning of through the burial, but it's really good, gives an excellent look back at what life was like in November 1963 and is a good starting point for understanding the facts and analysis presented later on.

    For example, from a few hours after Kennedy was shot, on a Friday afternoon, until he was buried the following Monday, all 3 network television stations canceled all programming, including commercials, and televised nothing but assassination related stories, something that did not occur to me as a 9 year old. Can you imagine that happening nowadays?

    BTW, I can vividly remember the exact moment when Jack Ruby was shot. We were having breakfast in the kitchen with the TV on in the living room and the TV reporter started yelling. My parents both dropped their silverware and raced into the living room.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:08 am
  • did jack Ruby get shot? or did you mean when Ruby shot Oswald?
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:10 am
  • LTH wrote:did jack Ruby get shot? or did you mean when Ruby shot Oswald?


    Ahh, yes, my bad. When Ruby shot LHO. Thanks for the correction.

    Which is another hole in the conspiracy theorists' stories. From the moment Oswald was shot, the conspiracy theories were off and running. Ruby just 'looked' like a Mafia hit man, and in fact, he did have some loose associations with the mob, he was from Chicago, and was in a shady business running a couple of night clubs. After all, the day before Oswald had exclaimed before the TV cameras that he was "just a patsy". At that time, literally everyone in the country was convinced that Ruby was part of a grand scheme, silencing the trigger man. To this day, there are tens of millions of people that still believe in this false narrative.

    But the fact is that just minutes before Oswald was shot, Ruby was down the block at the Western Union office, waiting patiently in line to send one of his strippers some money. When arrested, he had a receipt in his pocket that was mechanically stamped with the current time by a device that was validated daily, so there was no doubt that he had just arrived. Oswald's transfer had been announced as occurring several hours before it did, but it kept getting delayed, once at Oswald's request so he could change clothes.

    Like a disaster that had a perfect storm of insanely timed, random events merge at exactly the wrong time, Ruby just happened to show up just as Oswald was being led to the car taking him to the county jail in the same manner as the bizarre coincidence which gave Oswald a job on the 6th floor of the TSBD and a perfect line of sight at the presidential motorcade. A lot of very sane, intelligent people like yourself have a hard time coming to terms with these fantastically weird, random events all colliding at the worst possible moment and have a very difficult, but understandable, time accepting the fact that sometimes, $h!t happens.
    RiverDog
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:59 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    RiverDog wrote:
    LTH wrote:There is a lot of conflicting information out there it just depends on who you believe. I by no means am a ballistic expert...but tests have also been done that say the opposite of what you're saying...Dr. Cyril Wecht is a passionate man in his belief that's for sure...

    In my mind there is not a doubt that there was more than 1 shooter and I'm sure I could lay evidence out there and you could come up with reasons why it's not valid that's what makes a great conspiracy theory great...

    more later got to go... you should check out that Oliver stone doc... its on showtime it the only place I could find it...


    Much of what you say is true. However, I want to point out that after more than 58 years and countless investigations, both official government investigations as well as privately financed ones, examining this event in as many possible angles that the most creative and imaginative minds can possibly conceive, there has been no credible evidence that has surfaced that either confirms any of the dozens of conspiracy theories or rules out LHO as the lone assassin.

    However, there does exist undeniable photographic evidence, ballistic evidence, autopsy findings, computerized reenactments, and eyewitness testimony (for example, the vast majority of ear witnesses identified the SE corner of the TSBD as the lone source of the gunfire) that all point to LHO acting alone.

    I have read many different opinions on the event along with many of the conspiracy theories (my favorite is the Cubans in the storm sewer) and am open to hearing other POV's, but as I said earlier, I refuse to patronize Oliver Stone. He sullied my confidence in him as an objective source with his naked attempt to re-write history in his film "JFK". If it were anyone else, I'd be happy to check it out.

    Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this subject. You represent yourself well as an intelligent and respectful individual.


    I enjoy the conversation as well and I'm not done I'm just busy with other things... but I do want to say that even though you don't like stone I encourage you to watch it anyway because I'm VERY curious how you would view his most current information ... stuff like the CIA had been watc hing every move of LHO right up to the shooting this is all documented... so if thats the case then why did LHO get the chance to shoot JFK? very interesting huh?



    LTH


    Well the Kennedy's had pissed off and was going after just about everyone, Organized crime, Russians, Union bosses, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon and the Republicans, why it is so hard to really pin stuff down, there are so many that had a motive and had the power to pull it off, deflect and place blame where they wanted. To look at the supposed killer getting shot and his shooter getting shot as well is pretty deep conspiracy and I think more then a coincidence.

    Especially with all the levels of security they had placed from the Secret Service to FBI, CIA and Local police departments.


    This is strictly my opinion but your right... you don't kill the sitting president of the United States and cover it it up unless several entities in the government are helping. It's just not realistic to think otherwise.

    In RFK'S case the investigation was botched so bad concerning just the ballistic part it's truly unbelievable ... if Sirhan Sirhan had any kind of a half way decent lawyer at all they could have proved without a shadow of a doubt that there was more than one shooter...I don't even think they looked at ballistics...

    I mean when you have JFK jr and other family members going to bat for Sirhan Sirhan because the evidence doesn't make since that's a sure sign that things in that initial investigation were not right and I'm not even going into the evidence about MK Ultra... EDIT: ok yes I am going to get into mk ultra just not now LMAO!!!

    this was a great perspective on the RFK murder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSxVHk5IqX4

    LTH
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:19 am
  • LTH wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    LTH wrote:
    RiverDog wrote:
    Much of what you say is true. However, I want to point out that after more than 58 years and countless investigations, both official government investigations as well as privately financed ones, examining this event in as many possible angles that the most creative and imaginative minds can possibly conceive, there has been no credible evidence that has surfaced that either confirms any of the dozens of conspiracy theories or rules out LHO as the lone assassin.

    However, there does exist undeniable photographic evidence, ballistic evidence, autopsy findings, computerized reenactments, and eyewitness testimony (for example, the vast majority of ear witnesses identified the SE corner of the TSBD as the lone source of the gunfire) that all point to LHO acting alone.

    I have read many different opinions on the event along with many of the conspiracy theories (my favorite is the Cubans in the storm sewer) and am open to hearing other POV's, but as I said earlier, I refuse to patronize Oliver Stone. He sullied my confidence in him as an objective source with his naked attempt to re-write history in his film "JFK". If it were anyone else, I'd be happy to check it out.

    Once again, I appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this subject. You represent yourself well as an intelligent and respectful individual.


    I enjoy the conversation as well and I'm not done I'm just busy with other things... but I do want to say that even though you don't like stone I encourage you to watch it anyway because I'm VERY curious how you would view his most current information ... stuff like the CIA had been watc hing every move of LHO right up to the shooting this is all documented... so if thats the case then why did LHO get the chance to shoot JFK? very interesting huh?



    LTH


    Well the Kennedy's had pissed off and was going after just about everyone, Organized crime, Russians, Union bosses, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon and the Republicans, why it is so hard to really pin stuff down, there are so many that had a motive and had the power to pull it off, deflect and place blame where they wanted. To look at the supposed killer getting shot and his shooter getting shot as well is pretty deep conspiracy and I think more then a coincidence.

    Especially with all the levels of security they had placed from the Secret Service to FBI, CIA and Local police departments.


    This is strictly my opinion but your right... you don't kill the sitting president of the United States and cover it it up unless several entities in the government are helping. It's just not realistic to think otherwise.

    In RFK'S case the investigation was botched so bad concerning just the ballistic part it's truly unbelievable ... if Sirhan Sirhan had any kind of a half way decent lawyer at all they could have proved without a shadow of a doubt that there was more than one shooter...I don't even think they looked at ballistics...

    I mean when you have JFK jr and other family members going to bat for Sirhan Sirhan because the evidence doesn't make since that's a sure sign that things in that initial investigation were not right and I'm not even going into the evidence about MK Ultra... EDIT: ok yes I am going to get into mk ultra just not now LMAO!!!

    this was a great perspective on the RFK murder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSxVHk5IqX4

    LTH


    JFK and RFK were both going after some of the most corrupt and at that time protected by where they were at in influence as in Union and FBI and Organized crime. The motivation wasn't just the headliners but all the people linked to it if they continued. That doesn't even get into Russian and Cuban associations and political fallout over the Cuban missile crisis that would have been still in play.

    So many power brokers behind the scenes in so many places that could be working to eliminate the situations from going forward.

    Hell we seen how this stuff plays out today, without the social media and cell phones and a cameras everywhere back then it was a whole lot easier to buffalo the public.
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:03 am
  • chris98251 wrote:JFK and RFK were both going after some of the most corrupt and at that time protected by where they were at in influence as in Union and FBI and Organized crime. The motivation wasn't just the headliners but all the people linked to it if they continued. That doesn't even get into Russian and Cuban associations and political fallout over the Cuban missile crisis that would have been still in play.

    So many power brokers behind the scenes in so many places that could be working to eliminate the situations from going forward.

    Hell we seen how this stuff plays out today, without the social media and cell phones and a cameras everywhere back then it was a whole lot easier to buffalo the public.


    There is no doubt that there were hundreds, if not thousands, of groups that wanted to bump off the Kennedys. The ironic thing in the JFK assassination was that the group or class of individuals that they were most worried about on the Texas trip was the white supremists. It was the focus of the FBI and the Secret Service. Ironically, Oswald was a leftist that was vehemently opposed to white nationalism.

    But we have to keep returning to the facts. Ballistics, photographic evidence, autopsy findings, real time interviews of witnesses, and so on. Nearly all the conspiracy theories meet some sort of fatal objection. For example, a shot from the grassy knoll does not line up with the bullet wounds on JFK or Connelly, which is why the HSCA said a shot was fired from the grassy knoll and missed.

    There's also some no brainer questions, such as if Oswald was employed by the Mafia or the CIA to bump off JFK, why would they arm him with such a cheap, inferior weapon? Why wouldn't there have been some sort of getaway plan? Why would they have allowed the cops to apprehend LHO less than 2 hours after the crime? And if there was some sort of grand conspiracy that involved scores of individuals, why no death bed confessions over these past 60 years?
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Re: Conspiracy theory's anyone?
Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:37 am
  • LTH wrote:This is strictly my opinion but your right... you don't kill the sitting president of the United States and cover it it up unless several entities in the government are helping. It's just not realistic to think otherwise.

    In RFK'S case the investigation was botched so bad concerning just the ballistic part it's truly unbelievable ... if Sirhan Sirhan had any kind of a half way decent lawyer at all they could have proved without a shadow of a doubt that there was more than one shooter...I don't even think they looked at ballistics...

    I mean when you have JFK jr and other family members going to bat for Sirhan Sirhan because the evidence doesn't make since that's a sure sign that things in that initial investigation were not right and I'm not even going into the evidence about MK Ultra... EDIT: ok yes I am going to get into mk ultra just not now LMAO!!!

    this was a great perspective on the RFK murder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSxVHk5IqX4

    LTH


    I've read some reviews on the Stone documentary and it seems that it's just a regurgitation of his original JFK movie, long on possible motives and short on reconciling them with known facts . Here's one quote:

    But, exasperatingly, and despite speculation being the order of the day, the film never attempts to name any supposed second or third shooter, to say exactly where these gunmen would have been positioned, and how the inevitable witnesses to their activity would have been suppressed.

    A lot of Stone’s cui bono material here frankly isn’t new and doesn’t prove anything (Kennedy was arguably as reactionary and hawkish on Vietnam as anyone else in government) and surely the oddest omission in this film is something that itself points most clearly to something fishy; namely, the assassination of Oswald by Jack Ruby. Why isn’t Stone spending at least some of the 115 minutes of this documentary analysing Ruby and his motives and background? (Unsettlingly, the one film-maker who did touch on this was Martin Scorsese in The Irishman, about the assassination of Jimmy Hoffa and organised crime’s rage against the Kennedy family, which made it clear it that killing the killer afterwards as a precautionary measure was a settled mob habit.)

    Did the whole nation and its governing class go into denial after the Kennedy assassination as a way of managing their shock and grief? Perhaps. But this documentary, for all its factual material, is frustrating.


    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2021/n ... assy-knoll

    In order for Stone to sell me on a CIA plot, he would have to explain to me why they would have selected WWI style $8 rifle to arm Oswald with and Ruby's casual visit to Western Union minutes before he shot Oswald. Why wasn't he set up well in advance? Ruby was armed and close enough to Oswald to shoot him aprox. 24 hours earlier. Why didn't he take him out then? And why didn't someone take out Ruby? Wouldn't he be just as much of a risk as Oswald? It's these same facts that defeats the Mafia theory.

    And yes, I know all about the problems with the autopsy. It was the lead examiner's first autopsy involving gunshot wounds. They did not dissect the brain to track the path of the fatal bullet. They didn't have Kennedy's clothing so they couldn't match the holes in the clothing with the wounds on the body. He didn't speak with the IR doctors until later the next day and didn't realize that there was a wound in the front of Kennedy's throat (the wound had been obliterated in the IR by tracheostomy). He burned his original notes (they were blood stained and he feared them being acquired by some goolish individuals seeking to make a buck off them).

    But in order for it to have been part of a pre-determined plan, it would have required the cooperation of the First Lady or involved hundreds of individuals to account for multiple possible autopsy sites. On the return trip to Washington, Jackie was given a choice, and due to security concerns, they limited it to two military hospitals in the DC area, either Bethesda or Walter Reed, so now you'd have to include both the Army and Navy in the cover-up. Initially she couldn't decide until one of JFK's close friends and aides pointed out that Jack was a Navy man, to which Jackie responded "of course", so they selected Bethesda.

    Not only that, but the law at the time required that the autopsy be performed in Dallas. In 1963, there was no federal law against killing the President unless he was on government property so the Secret Service had no legal authority to remove the body, and indeed, the coroner, a man by the name of Earl Rose, attempted to prevent them from taking the body out of Dallas, which he was completely within his legal right, and obligation, to do so. Would not the plot to undermine the autopsy had to account for the possibility of it being done in Texas? Now you have a bunch of Texans a thousand miles away from Washington in on the caper. Can you see the absurdity of these theories?

    If Stone is going to sell me on an advance plot prior to the assassination to alter the results of the autopsy, he's going to have to show me their plan to account for the 3 possible locations. The further you dive into the conspiracy theories and try to match them up with the facts like I have, the more extensive and complicated it gets.

    If you can tell me that the Stone documentary attempts to reconcile these questions, then I'll find a way to watch it.
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