4-0 16 minutes in...women's soccer

[Sgt. Largent]

You know what I didn't see in the women's game that I constantly see ion the mens game and it makes me sick?? Flopping. Seriously.

I coach U16 girls, and some of the do try to dive, but very few of them can pull it off and sell it.

People think diving is easy, but it's not. It takes quite a bit of practice and athletic skill to sell a dive.

Not saying the women aren't as athletic as the men in soccer, but the men have been practicing the speed, pace and athletic skill of diving for literally decades longer than the women.

Ridiculous...

Yes I'm sure the women just care more about the purity of the sport, and not gaining advantage through diving.

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm sure the women not diving has very little to do with their athletic or acting ability.

They don't dive because its not a part of the women's soccer culture. It may become. But it's not right now. I wouldn't look for reasons. I coach lot's of girls. It's just not part of how they play. The less they see it at the higher levels the less inclined they will be to mimic it as they grow older

As a coach you should be more inclined to appreciate it for what it is.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm sure the women not diving has very little to do with their athletic or acting ability.

They don't dive because its not a part of the women's soccer culture. It may become. But it's not right now. I wouldn't look for reasons. I coach lot's of girls. It's just not part of how they play. The less they see it at the higher levels the less inclined they will be to mimic it as they grow older

As a coach you should be more inclined to appreciate it for what it is.

I do see diving with my girls, but like I said 90% of them aren't good at it, so they don't even try.

I know it's a dirty little secret in the sport of soccer, but diving is an acquired skill that takes a player decades to master. Guys like Ronaldo and Suarez aren't amazing divers because they were born with that skill. They've been perfecting the art of diving since they were probably 8 years old.

The women's game just hasn't had enough time for it's players to master diving. I'm sure if you go back to men's professional soccer in the 40's and 50's, you'd hardly see any diving, if at all. That's kinda where the women's game is now as far as diving is concerned.

 

[kidhawk]

[urltargetblank]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/06/420514899/what-people-are-saying-about-the-u-s-women-s-world-cup-win[/urltargetblank]

"It is the highest metered market rating ever for a soccer game in the U.S. on a single network," the company says.

While some 17 million American viewers tuned in to the 7 p.m. ET start of Sunday's game, that number quickly grew to 21.86 million an hour later — and reached 22.86 million at 8:30 p.m. ET, according to preliminary data from industry website TV Media Insights.

Those figures are comparable to the 2014 World Series' Game 7, which attracted 23.5 million viewers — far more than any other game of the 2014 series.

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm sure the women not diving has very little to do with their athletic or acting ability.

They don't dive because its not a part of the women's soccer culture. It may become. But it's not right now. I wouldn't look for reasons. I coach lot's of girls. It's just not part of how they play. The less they see it at the higher levels the less inclined they will be to mimic it as they grow older

As a coach you should be more inclined to appreciate it for what it is.

I do see diving with my girls, but like I said 90% of them aren't good at it, so they don't even try.

I know it's a dirty little secret in the sport of soccer, but diving is an acquired skill that takes a player decades to master. Guys like Ronaldo and Suarez aren't amazing divers because they were born with that skill. They've been perfecting the art of diving since they were probably 8 years old.

The women's game just hasn't had enough time for it's players to master diving. I'm sure if you go back to men's professional soccer in the 40's and 50's, you'd hardly see any diving, if at all. That's kinda where the women's game is now as far as diving is concerned.

I'm a bit surprised by your take on it.

The girl's dont try because it's not in their mindset to try. It's not part of their soccer DNA. It's not that they are limited physically. They don't approach the game the way in which the men do. you see it in a lot of different aspects. I have a few on my team that try and dive. many don't. Why? because the two that do are good at it? Or because they think its part of their game while the other's don't? (and to be clear, this is simulation/diving, not going down under contact.)

Why don't the women take on defenders like Messi and Ronaldo? Because they haven't mastered the art? Or because they play a different way?

If you go back to the Men's game in the 40s and 50s you won't see diving because the game was far more physical. It was played differently. Contact was more acceptable. It was more viscous. Diving wouldn't get you anything (except a stamp) The game has changed. its more free flowing, more fluid, "prettier." Today, players feel it gives them an advantage. They didn't adopt it because they were learning.

and it's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. It's not "acquired"... some guys just do it. most do not. It's a mental choice as to how they view the game and their role in it.

Playing through college we all "could" dive. Some of us did. Most of us didn't bother. Why? Because it wasn't how we approached the game.

You're trying to find a timeline reflective of the men's sport without acknowledging the key differences in the way the game is played between the sexes, between the continents, and between the ages. If you approach your coaching this way you are greatly impeding your own ways to make your team (your daughter) better.

Just my opinion. the sport can be rooted in traditionalist nonsense and ignorance. I could go on for days.

My thought on the way in which the women approach the game is they recognize the strengths of their merits over deceit.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm sure the women not diving has very little to do with their athletic or acting ability.

They don't dive because its not a part of the women's soccer culture. It may become. But it's not right now. I wouldn't look for reasons. I coach lot's of girls. It's just not part of how they play. The less they see it at the higher levels the less inclined they will be to mimic it as they grow older

As a coach you should be more inclined to appreciate it for what it is.

I do see diving with my girls, but like I said 90% of them aren't good at it, so they don't even try.

I know it's a dirty little secret in the sport of soccer, but diving is an acquired skill that takes a player decades to master. Guys like Ronaldo and Suarez aren't amazing divers because they were born with that skill. They've been perfecting the art of diving since they were probably 8 years old.

The women's game just hasn't had enough time for it's players to master diving. I'm sure if you go back to men's professional soccer in the 40's and 50's, you'd hardly see any diving, if at all. That's kinda where the women's game is now as far as diving is concerned.

I'm a bit surprised by your take on it.

The girl's dont try because it's not in their mindset to try. It's not part of their soccer DNA. It's not that they are limited physically. They don't approach the game the way in which the men do. you see it in a lot of different aspects. I have a few on my team that try and dive. many don't. Why? because the two that do are good at it? Or because they think its part of their game while the other's don't? (and to be clear, this is simulation/diving, not going down under contact.)

Why don't the women take on defenders like Messi and Ronaldo? Because they haven't mastered the art? Or because they play a different way?

If you go back to the Men's game in the 40s and 50s you won't see diving because the game was far more physical. It was played differently. Contact was more acceptable. It was more viscous. Diving wouldn't get you anything (except a stamp) The game has changed. its more free flowing, more fluid, "prettier." Today, players feel it gives them an advantage. They didn't adopt it because they were learning.

and it's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. It's not "acquired"... some guys just do it. most do not. It's a mental choice as to how they view the game and their role in it.

Playing through college we all "could" dive. Some of us did. Most of us didn't bother. Why? Because it wasn't how we approached the game.

You're trying to find a timeline reflective of the men's sport without acknowledging the key differences in the way the game is played between the sexes, between the continents, and between the ages. If you approach your coaching this way you are greatly impeding your own ways to make your team (your daughter) better.

Just my opinion. the sport can be rooted in traditionalist nonsense and ignorance. I could go on for days.

My thought on the way in which the women approach the game is they recognize the strengths of their merits over deceit.

Playing differently, or the women having their own style of play doesn't exclude them from trying to bend the rules, or gain an advantage........which is the intent of diving.

I also know it's sacrilege to call diving "an art" because it has such a negative connotation to it. So if you're going to risk injury, being boo'd and even a yellow card for diving if caught...........then yes you have to have practiced it and learned all the nuances of diving before taking that to the pitch. Which can only happen over a long period of time and practice. Just something women in general in the game of soccer aren't comfortable doing.

Not less athletic, not less anything...........just not comfortable, especially on the world's biggest stage. Which btw, you also see less diving in the men's World Cup, because the matches mean so much. No time for nonsense.

I have watched quite a few women's college soccer and pro matches, and you do see more diving and "gamesmanship" in those matches than something like the World Cup.

 

[253hawk]

Brazil is really bad about it, especially Marta and Erika.

[youtube]CTyqciQcd78[/youtube]

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm sure the women not diving has very little to do with their athletic or acting ability.

They don't dive because its not a part of the women's soccer culture. It may become. But it's not right now. I wouldn't look for reasons. I coach lot's of girls. It's just not part of how they play. The less they see it at the higher levels the less inclined they will be to mimic it as they grow older

As a coach you should be more inclined to appreciate it for what it is.

I do see diving with my girls, but like I said 90% of them aren't good at it, so they don't even try.

I know it's a dirty little secret in the sport of soccer, but diving is an acquired skill that takes a player decades to master. Guys like Ronaldo and Suarez aren't amazing divers because they were born with that skill. They've been perfecting the art of diving since they were probably 8 years old.

The women's game just hasn't had enough time for it's players to master diving. I'm sure if you go back to men's professional soccer in the 40's and 50's, you'd hardly see any diving, if at all. That's kinda where the women's game is now as far as diving is concerned.

I'm a bit surprised by your take on it.

The girl's dont try because it's not in their mindset to try. It's not part of their soccer DNA. It's not that they are limited physically. They don't approach the game the way in which the men do. you see it in a lot of different aspects. I have a few on my team that try and dive. many don't. Why? because the two that do are good at it? Or because they think its part of their game while the other's don't? (and to be clear, this is simulation/diving, not going down under contact.)

Why don't the women take on defenders like Messi and Ronaldo? Because they haven't mastered the art? Or because they play a different way?

If you go back to the Men's game in the 40s and 50s you won't see diving because the game was far more physical. It was played differently. Contact was more acceptable. It was more viscous. Diving wouldn't get you anything (except a stamp) The game has changed. its more free flowing, more fluid, "prettier." Today, players feel it gives them an advantage. They didn't adopt it because they were learning.

and it's not as difficult as you're making it out to be. It's not "acquired"... some guys just do it. most do not. It's a mental choice as to how they view the game and their role in it.

Playing through college we all "could" dive. Some of us did. Most of us didn't bother. Why? Because it wasn't how we approached the game.

You're trying to find a timeline reflective of the men's sport without acknowledging the key differences in the way the game is played between the sexes, between the continents, and between the ages. If you approach your coaching this way you are greatly impeding your own ways to make your team (your daughter) better.

Just my opinion. the sport can be rooted in traditionalist nonsense and ignorance. I could go on for days.

My thought on the way in which the women approach the game is they recognize the strengths of their merits over deceit.

Playing differently, or the women having their own style of play doesn't exclude them from trying to bend the rules, or gain an advantage........which is the intent of diving.

I also know it's sacrilege to call diving "an art" because it has such a negative connotation to it. So if you're going to risk injury, being boo'd and even a yellow card for diving if caught...........then yes you have to have practiced it and learned all the nuances of diving before taking that to the pitch. Which can only happen over a long period of time and practice. Just something women in general in the game of soccer aren't comfortable doing.

Not less athletic, not less anything...........just not comfortable, especially on the world's biggest stage. Which btw, you also see less diving in the men's World Cup, because the matches mean so much. No time for nonsense.

I have watched quite a few women's college soccer and pro matches, and you do see more diving and "gamesmanship" in those matches than something like the World Cup.

36 years of playing and coaching, including college, working with an MLS team and (assisting as a coach) with a semi pro team.

never seen one person "practice" diving. Gamesmanship (shirt tug, stamp, etc..), sure. But not diving.

There is a good chance they are not "comfortable" diving because they don't view it as part of how they play... much like how 95% of the men on the field do not either. On the men's side, it is becoming less and less frequent. We are a year or two away from simulation fines and post match yellow cards after video review of games.

You're trying to hammer a point across that doesn't fit. We will just see it differently.

 

[AbsolutNET]

I'm not much into soccer outside of world championship level, but they were a lot of fun to watch. Defensive dominance with some play makers on the other end is always good sports entertainment. Very proud having them represent and brought home the cup!

 

[Uncle Si]

Brazil is really bad about it, especially Marta and Erika.

[youtube]CTyqciQcd78[/youtube]

This isn't a dive.

She faked an injury to waste time.

It's a shit thing to do.. but let's make sure we are talking about the same thing here.

 

[Uncle Si]

I'm not much into soccer outside of world championship level, but they were a lot of fun to watch. Defensive dominance with some play makers on the other end is always good sports entertainment. Very proud having them represent and brought home the cup!

Whats particularly great about this achievement is the US was not nailed on as the best team coming in, as they have been in years past.

This was a very competitive tournament, with some major upsets and lots of drama. The US had to make some major adjustments to their system mid way through and rode it to a trophy.

Great month of the sport.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

never seen one person "practice" diving. Gamesmanship (shirt tug, stamp, etc..), sure. But not diving. .

I don't mean practice like coaches are running drills in practice teaching kids how to dive, I mean on the pitch over long periods of time.

It's OK Si if you disagree with me, but I refuse to believe women don't dive because it's just not part of their game. They're playing the same game as men, and want to win just as badly. So there are other factors involved than "they're just not into diving as part of the style they play."

Believe me, as young women get better at it, you will see more diving.

 

[Kennedyin92]

Pretty sad to see the difference in compensation for the team (Men vs. Women). Thinking about the marketing of sports, it's amazing what a gross imbalance still exists. Lots of opportunities for women to wear NFL jerseys of male "heroes" but not vice versa...just interesting.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pretty sad to see the difference in compensation for the team (Men vs. Women). Thinking about the marketing of sports, it's amazing what a gross imbalance still exists. Lots of opportunities for women to wear NFL jerseys of male "heroes" but not vice versa...just interesting.

Sepp Blatter not even knowing the names of women players tells you everything you need to know about FIFA's antiquated view of women's soccer as a whole. Having said this compensation in the World Cup is based on many factors, so even though the TV ratings were high (in the US, not sure bout other countries), other factors like gate receipts, merchandise, etc were average to low overall for this WC.

But the positive is women's soccer is growing, as other countries start to grow their programs to catch up to countries like Japan, US, etc then it should help in all the factors I mentioned about...........which SHOULD lead to better compensation. Not sure bout that though until FIFA actually cleans up their act.

 

[253hawk]

It's a shit thing to do.. but let's make sure we are talking about the same thing here.

Didn't say it was a dive, but shit sportsmanship knows no bounds and it was just an example. As the Patriots have shown, if you're willing to cheat at all, the sky's the limit.

 

[InSuarezWeTrust]

I am watching and have been surprised by the board's non-interest. Fun game, and they were sooooo close to setting the shut out record (tied it, at least).

Sorry for my lack of posting. I was there in section 405 Row A seat 6.

 

[chris98251]

Flopping, faking injury is just something inferior teams do to try to gain an advantage, look at the NBA, flopping was never really part of the game until you seen Divac start doing it consistently to try to get others into foul trouble, then everyone started to do it. I think that's what the true Power forward isn't as much a part of the game as they used to be either.

 

[Swedishhawkfan]

I think the quality of the play is still awful in general. In a majority of the games a majority of the time, it is slow paced, technically bad, and most goals happen from absurd mistakes and/or goalkeepers not making average saves. In Sweden it's kind of awkward since everyone who watched notice that the quality of play is severely lacking, but the media is trying so hard to make it seem like it is really good.

But to me, the interessting thing here is not womens soccer vs mens soccer, but rather why womens soccer is so much worse than most other women sports? There is no angry mobs rushing to attack womens tennis, skiing, running, high jumping etc etc, but as soon as womens soccer is brought up everyone just sighs and rolls their eyes. (In Sweden that is).

The thing is though that women high jumpers jump WAAAAAY higher than any normal person can, women olympic sprinters are REALLY fast etc etc. It is just obvious when watching them that they are elite athletes way better than the people sitting in the couch. With soccer though, the womens national team is consistently beaten badly by random teams of 15 year old boys. When Umeå IK was one of the best womens clubs in the world and had Marta (best player at the time) they lost 5-1 to one of the citys 15yr boys teams. You combine knowing this fact with seeing how boring it can be to watch such low quality of play compared to what is usually shown on tv (going from CL, PL, world cup games to watch this tournament almost feels like another sport) and with the announcers always overly positive (if a keeper in the mens game just barely cant reach a pretty good shot, the announcers are kinda picking on him, but when the womens keeper makes a baffling mistake the just go "oh unlucky...great shot.."

So to summarize: Almost noboby is complaining on other womens sports because the people watching know they can't do better themselves. With soccer however, the vast majority of 20 something men know that they most likely could assemble a team of their friends and friends of friends that would beat the womens national team.

Many of you probably think the US team would beat a bad english division 2 team, but the truth is that they would lose badly to EVERY mens team that is in any kind of competitive division, and to most organized junior teams above age 15 as well. The difference is HUGE.

 

[Uncle Si]

never seen one person "practice" diving. Gamesmanship (shirt tug, stamp, etc..), sure. But not diving. .

I don't mean practice like coaches are running drills in practice teaching kids how to dive, I mean on the pitch over long periods of time.

It's OK Si if you disagree with me, but I refuse to believe women don't dive because it's just not part of their game. They're playing the same game as men, and want to win just as badly. So there are other factors involved than "they're just not into diving as part of the style they play."

Believe me, as young women get better at it, you will see more diving.

They aren't playing the same game. Just like mens and womens basketball is different on many levels, so is soccer. Its coached differently, trained differently and in effect implemented and played differently.

This has nothing to do with competitiveness, nor athletic ability. Some players dive. Most (like a very large majority) do not. The women's game is not played as fast, nor does it focus on individual ability and 1v1 play as much as the men's game. Thus, diving isn't even in play as much due to the lack of opportunity.

I digress, as it's a futile argument. Going on believing that girls will eventually adopt it as practice I think is far too simplistic a generalization.

 

[Uncle Si]

I think the quality of the play is still awful in general. In a majority of the games a majority of the time, it is slow paced, technically bad, and most goals happen from absurd mistakes and/or goalkeepers not making average saves. In Sweden it's kind of awkward since everyone who watched notice that the quality of play is severely lacking, but the media is trying so hard to make it seem like it is really good.

But to me, the interessting thing here is not womens soccer vs mens soccer, but rather why womens soccer is so much worse than most other women sports? There is no angry mobs rushing to attack womens tennis, skiing, running, high jumping etc etc, but as soon as womens soccer is brought up everyone just sighs and rolls their eyes. (In Sweden that is).

The thing is though that women high jumpers jump WAAAAAY higher than any normal person can, women olympic sprinters are REALLY fast etc etc. It is just obvious when watching them that they are elite athletes way better than the people sitting in the couch. With soccer though, the womens national team is consistently beaten badly by random teams of 15 year old boys. When Umeå IK was one of the best womens clubs in the world and had Marta (best player at the time) they lost 5-1 to one of the citys 15yr boys teams. You combine knowing this fact with seeing how boring it can be to watch such low quality of play compared to what is usually shown on tv (going from CL, PL, world cup games to watch this tournament almost feels like another sport) and with the announcers always overly positive (if a keeper in the mens game just barely cant reach a pretty good shot, the announcers are kinda picking on him, but when the womens keeper makes a baffling mistake the just go "oh unlucky...great shot.."

So to summarize: Almost noboby is complaining on other womens sports because the people watching know they can't do better themselves. With soccer however, the vast majority of 20 something men know that they most likely could assemble a team of their friends and friends of friends that would beat the womens national team.

Many of you probably think the US team would beat a bad english division 2 team, but the truth is that they would lose badly to EVERY mens team that is in any kind of competitive division, and to most organized junior teams above age 15 as well. The difference is HUGE.

Pretty harsh, some (dripping in) hyperbole, but the premise is true.

I played high school soccer just outside of Oregon. We combined with the girls side alot. One of the girls was Tiffany Milbrett, future starting CM and eventual Captain of the Woman's world cup team. In comparative play, she'd have been in the top 8 of those combined sides. Maybe 3 of us eventually played D1.

My 15 academy boys routinely beat the 19 girls academy team in scrimmages, and those girls are almost all D1.

However, the women's game has developed immensely in the last decade. And while it has not caught up to the men's game in pace of play nor technical ability, the building blocks are in place.

What the girls game needs more than anything is the same devoted coaching that the boys/mens side is seeing in this country. More emphasis on technical development and game intelligence. There is nothing that can be done about the physical differences. Pointing them out is simply finding the least common denominator.

While it's a hyperbolic (borderline sexist and asinine to be honest) to assume a group of 20 something former soccer players could put together a team that can beat a National team, any well coached Men's D1 side probably could. But it would not be due to tactics. The women's game is excelling in that aspect of the game. Physically they would be overmatched, obviously. There is not much that can happen there. But the technical details need improvement on the women's side.

That's where I was a bit frustrated watching the games this month. While it was played "slower" that relative speed of play was less due to physical ability and more to do with technical ability.