Art Thiel ask if its Time to trade Russell

mrt144

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IndyHawk":2qluc2vt said:
Sgt. Largent":2qluc2vt said:
vin.couve12":2qluc2vt said:
The idea of 30M for one player is seemingly insane. That's anywhere from 3 to 5 pro bowlers at varying other positions.

It especially is for a QB that you're not really making the focal point of your offense.

Which is why this is a debate on Russell. Not many people are debating that Russell's a great football player, and a great QB. But if Pete is doubling down on the pound the rock ball control run game, why would we pay our QB 25-30M a year sucking up that much cap space.

Yes you pay guys like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, etc that kind of money because they are the focal points of their offenses.

This is why our offense has been in this limbo ever since Russell got paid, it's been a tug of war between trying to make the offense work while paying the defense vs. wanting to run the ball when your QB is sucking up 50% of the cap space for the offense.
On one spectrum this is what I have been saying but you put it in a better way
I'm good with that and frankly I get tired of trying to point out that 30 plus million
on his next contract is insane to do no matter how anyone tries to surgar coat
around it. I'm saying here and now if that happens forget Championships because
his cap figure by that time will be 40-50% of the offense alone.

What if 30 mil isn't 40-50% of the offense because of cap inflation or changes to the CBA in 2020? What if if they structure the contract in a way that is structured so that only 2 of 4 or 5 years hit that mark?

How do we pay for a good line for our QB who can't run wild anymore?
Or we pay for a line but have crappy RB's and WR's.You cannot assume
we will draft well to cover anything ha ha.

But you can assume that lightning strikes twice with QBs drafted 3rd round or later? At least with RBs and WRs you can diversify across round.

I guess we could go cheap with defense and special teams and have a
great offense(there is an idea)I bet we get a wild card and done at best.

There was someone, a long while ago that opined that there are natural cycles to cap expendetures depending on cycle of drafting. In our championship season we in fact were 'cheap' on defense with the offense consuming 52.31% of the cap and defense consuming 39.07% according to sportrac http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/seattle-seahawks/positional/2013/full-cap/. Our defense was young and relatively unpaid, just like RW was. On a long enough timetable we are not going to have our LOB players and it stands to reason they will try to replace through the draft thus resulting in a cheap defense again. This has already happened on the line, we have some young guys with promise but none is a total beast (even if I think Frank Clark is awesome). If they hit their picks with defense we very well could be in a similar position of salary cap % where the defense pulls down less than 45% in 2020 or 2021.

the funny thing is, I have been a staunch defender of the defense from time to time but this team was just in a blessed situation having so much good young talent balling out of their minds on cheap contracts supplemented with above average veterans on middling contracts. The defense hasn't been nearly as good as that high water mark and thats fine because that high water mark was historical - you just aren't going to have ever increasing benchmarks when you're in the discussion for best defense of all time year 2 of the playoff run. But even being a staunch defender, I can see that they simply haven't equaled a ratio of their salary to performance from the 2012-2014 run.

On the other hand, the team has made huge money and draft pick mistakes (both shipping and actual picks) with offense in a seemingly rudderless or stubborn path of failure.


I'd rather take my chances with the ransom of picks and win another
Championship.
The same formula we used before when all we needed was a game manager.

Well I'll put you down as an optimist that the rest of the offense figures their crap out because a game manager is not going to cut it out there with something resembling the 2017 offense.

I don't see how you view the winning formula as you do or in the context you do. It isn't as simple as historical defense and a game manager QB when you interject salary, draft, extensions, FA pickups and other considerations. The 2012-2014 Seahawks were young and cheap with almost every single of their best players on defense. And they were not only good but one of the best at the position compared to the ENTIRE league.

To me the forumula seems to be criminally underpaid HOF defensive players on defense surrounded by solid players, an average line and two dynamic weapons on offense one of who is underpaid and relatively unknown in his capabilities.

If you just want to blow the team up fine, blow it up, and there's not fault in that opinion. But at least understand what you're blowing up before you push the plunger.

We could totally have a conversation about how you keep a historical defense together under the conditions of the NFL where the best players are on rookie or friendly 2nd contracts. I just don't know if we'd wind up in even close to the current Seahawks roster.
 

chris98251

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2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3
 

mrt144

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chris98251":1y40qlv7 said:
2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3

Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.
 

randomation

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Hasselbeck":lkengbxj said:
randomation":lkengbxj said:
I almost wish they would trade Russ for 1 33 two firsts and two seconds. Put him on the Browns and they are a championship contender instantly then maybe people here would realize what the Hawks had.

I do too. That would be an amazing haul for him, and he'd be out of the conference and would rarely be a threat to us.

In reality though, the Browns will draft a QB .. probably ruin him forever (RIP Sam Darnold's career) .. and we will pay Wilson 30M a year and go 9-7/10-6 more often than not.

You realize that "haul" is basically what the rams paid for goff right? That isn't an amazing "haul" for an all pro level qb and Russ has shown he can be when he isn't handicapped by playcalling.
 

scutterhawk

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mrt144":3o9y6oqz said:
chris98251":3o9y6oqz said:
2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3

Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.

It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:
 

mrt144

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scutterhawk":1mbjpbdv said:
mrt144":1mbjpbdv said:
chris98251":1mbjpbdv said:
2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3

Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.

It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:

At least we know this isn't unique to RW - there have probably been trade brady and trade rodgers and trade peyton fans at varoius times, especially relatively stark times.
 

MontanaHawk05

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Hasselbeck":1y2dhkqf said:
MontanaHawk05":1y2dhkqf said:
Hasselbeck":1y2dhkqf said:
MontanaHawk05":1y2dhkqf said:
Even with his 1st-3rd-quarter faults well-documented, Russ is still better than the QB hell we'd be leaping into if we traded him. Get him a RB.

Hypothetically say we moved him before the '17 draft to Cleveland and wound up with Deshaun Watson as his replacement. Would you still feel like they were in "QB hell" with an ultra talented QB on a contract significantly cheaper?

No.

But I made my post under the assumption that DeShaun Watson wasn't on our roster. That hasn't changed, has it? I admit I haven't been checking in as much lately...

Your assumption is in the event Russell were moved, the QB we would have would be terrible and sentence this team to a decade of losing. Fact is, we cannot really assume either hitting a home run and finding a cheaper QB to take over or the idea that Wilson would be replaced with some stiff that would be terrible.

I feel like this team would be as likely to land a Watson type rookie as they would a guy that would flop.

If Watson types were as plentiful as you imply, the NFL would look very different than it is now. I'm firmly in the "bird in the hand" camp on this one.
 
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getnasty

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One other thing that I think is a big deal that nobody talks about is Russells relationship with his teammates. 2012/2013 Russell was absolutely loved by his teammates. I don't know if it was success, money, Ciara, the Golden Gate drama but something change there. I certainly dont blame Russ but i defintly think there a problem there that doesn't get talked about enough.
 

Sports Hernia

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scutterhawk":4qyir16z said:
mrt144":4qyir16z said:
chris98251":4qyir16z said:
2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3

Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.

It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:
Nailed it! Great post! :2thumbs:
 

IndyHawk

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Sports Hernia":2mrur0aq said:
scutterhawk":2mrur0aq said:
mrt144":2mrur0aq said:
chris98251":2mrur0aq said:
2012: 106/93
2013: 106/96
2014: 91/95
2015: 101/111
2016: 97/89
2017: 78/112

Kind of looks like to me that the worse our Line and running game got the more defenses were able to target Wilson as well as take away his targets.

Ok continue with your Crucifixions.

3

Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.

It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:
Nailed it! Great post! :2thumbs:
Chris post does sum up last season to be sure.
The thing being questioned is whether we need to be paying 35 million after his contract is up
Why?Just because he is considered a star?He has more question marks to me than a Brady,
Brees and Rodgers as these have already been discussed in other topics.
Again his trade value will never be higher than now it is that simple.
Suppose we wait till next season and he is no better?
Still cannot seem to audible out or use the pocket and just run into sacks?
The value drops more and we are screwed into almost taking that 35 million
out of some belief or fan backlash because they won't accept he won't get better?
I hope I got him wrong and will eat crow crap but I have seen many QB's in my time
I'm not just some semi troll looking for attention.
I understand it's not a popular topic but it's a team game with so many parts
that 35 million could be better used in the long run in my opinion.
So what if he went to another team.
I will bet the same issues we see here will still be there and maybe even worse.
I am done with this thread..Before I go though(mrt144)You made some good points
on the cap but pushing the can down the road doesn't end well in short time
it is kind of how we got to where we are now..
 

adeltaY

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Just want to say that even Watson isn't a proven player yet. His OL was garbage but they could at least somewhat run it and BoB completely changed the offense to suit Watson and it was difficult to prepare for. Also, he wasn't very accurate, PFF had him as the 38th most accurate QB after accounting for drops, throwaway, etc. And he was throwing to IMO the best WR duo in the league at the time in Fuller and Hopkins.
 

Sports Hernia

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IndyHawk":14vmc30o said:
Sports Hernia":14vmc30o said:
scutterhawk":14vmc30o said:
mrt144":14vmc30o said:
Doesn't explain why 2017 is so crazy in the dichotomy. 2012-2016 isn't very meaningful in variance - 2017 is.

I don't know if you guys remember my post about the drive efficiency tanking in 2017 and being an outlier to previous years. But there's another supporting piece of evidence of how out of whack things got. It's entirely possible that we hit the threshold where a symptom of dysfunction is such a stark contrasts.

It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:
Nailed it! Great post! :2thumbs:
Chris post does sum up last season to be sure.
The thing being questioned is whether we need to be paying 35 million after his contract is up
Why?Just because he is considered a star?He has more question marks to me than a Brady,
Brees and Rodgers as these have already been discussed in other topics.
Again his trade value will never be higher than now it is that simple.
Suppose we wait till next season and he is no better?
Still cannot seem to audible out or use the pocket and just run into sacks?
The value drops more and we are screwed into almost taking that 35 million
out of some belief or fan backlash because they won't accept he won't get better?
I hope I got him wrong and will eat crow crap but I have seen many QB's in my time
I'm not just some semi troll looking for attention.
I understand it's not a popular topic but it's a team game with so many parts
that 35 million could be better used in the long run in my opinion.
So what if he went to another team.
I will bet the same issues we see here will still be there and maybe even worse.
I am done with this thread..Before I go though(mrt144)You made some good points
on the cap but pushing the can down the road doesn't end well in short time
it is kind of how we got to where we are now..
So using your “logic” all teams that have a top veteran QB’s should trade them. Bye bye Shady Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Worthlessburger, Newton, Stafford, Brees etc etc, as all of their next contracts will be thru the roof and their trade value will never be higher right???

That’s beyond stupid..... as mentioned here previous times franchise QB’s are RARE and don’t grow on trees.
We’ve had exactly ONE in all of the Hawks existence, ONE, and you want to trade that away. Puzzling to say the least.

Ideas like this is why I hate fantasy football and Madden. Everyone thinks they are a wheeling and dealing “master GM” because they won their fantasy league or beat their best buds at a video game.
 
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getnasty

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Sports Hernia":3gog7yko said:
IndyHawk":3gog7yko said:
Sports Hernia":3gog7yko said:
scutterhawk":3gog7yko said:
It's the perfect storm---Shitty play-calls, Crap O-Line play, ZERO Run game, a kicker that probably wouldn't make the squad in high school, too many major Injuries to our Defensive stars.
Getting rid of Russell Wilson would only exacerbate the problem with our Offense.
After what seems like an eternity, we finally have a Franchise Quarterback that's worth a shit, and some in here actually think he's the problem?
"Time To Trade Russell"?, not only no, but HELL NO!! :pukeface:
Nailed it! Great post! :2thumbs:
Chris post does sum up last season to be sure.
The thing being questioned is whether we need to be paying 35 million after his contract is up
Why?Just because he is considered a star?He has more question marks to me than a Brady,
Brees and Rodgers as these have already been discussed in other topics.
Again his trade value will never be higher than now it is that simple.
Suppose we wait till next season and he is no better?
Still cannot seem to audible out or use the pocket and just run into sacks?
The value drops more and we are screwed into almost taking that 35 million
out of some belief or fan backlash because they won't accept he won't get better?
I hope I got him wrong and will eat crow crap but I have seen many QB's in my time
I'm not just some semi troll looking for attention.
I understand it's not a popular topic but it's a team game with so many parts
that 35 million could be better used in the long run in my opinion.
So what if he went to another team.
I will bet the same issues we see here will still be there and maybe even worse.
I am done with this thread..Before I go though(mrt144)You made some good points
on the cap but pushing the can down the road doesn't end well in short time
it is kind of how we got to where we are now..
So using your “logic” all teams that have a top veteran QB’s should trade them. Bye bye Shady Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Worthlessburger, Newton, Stafford, Brees etc etc, as all of their next contracts will be thru the roof and their trade value will never be higher right???

That’s beyond stupid..... as mentioned here previous times franchise QB’s are RARE and don’t grow on trees.
We’ve had exactly ONE in all of the Hawks existence, ONE, and you want to trade that away. Puzzling to say the least.

Ideas like this is why I hate fantasy football and Madden. Everyone thinks they are a wheeling and dealing “master GM” because they won their fantasy league or beat their best buds at a video game.

Pretty amazing of the QB's you just mentioned outside of Brady nobody has carried their team to more then 1 SB win. If you look at Big Bens first win it really had nothing to do with him, same for Russell and his first win, Peyton Mannings last title. In fact if you got rid of Brady I'd say defense and run game has been more effective then Pro Bowl quarterbacks.
 

Sports Hernia

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getnasty":1xj2i3d3 said:
Sports Hernia":1xj2i3d3 said:
IndyHawk":1xj2i3d3 said:
Sports Hernia":1xj2i3d3 said:
Nailed it! Great post! :2thumbs:
Chris post does sum up last season to be sure.
The thing being questioned is whether we need to be paying 35 million after his contract is up
Why?Just because he is considered a star?He has more question marks to me than a Brady,
Brees and Rodgers as these have already been discussed in other topics.
Again his trade value will never be higher than now it is that simple.
Suppose we wait till next season and he is no better?
Still cannot seem to audible out or use the pocket and just run into sacks?
The value drops more and we are screwed into almost taking that 35 million
out of some belief or fan backlash because they won't accept he won't get better?
I hope I got him wrong and will eat crow crap but I have seen many QB's in my time
I'm not just some semi troll looking for attention.
I understand it's not a popular topic but it's a team game with so many parts
that 35 million could be better used in the long run in my opinion.
So what if he went to another team.
I will bet the same issues we see here will still be there and maybe even worse.
I am done with this thread..Before I go though(mrt144)You made some good points
on the cap but pushing the can down the road doesn't end well in short time
it is kind of how we got to where we are now..
So using your “logic” all teams that have a top veteran QB’s should trade them. Bye bye Shady Brady, Rodgers, Ryan, Worthlessburger, Newton, Stafford, Brees etc etc, as all of their next contracts will be thru the roof and their trade value will never be higher right???

That’s beyond stupid..... as mentioned here previous times franchise QB’s are RARE and don’t grow on trees.
We’ve had exactly ONE in all of the Hawks existence, ONE, and you want to trade that away. Puzzling to say the least.

Ideas like this is why I hate fantasy football and Madden. Everyone thinks they are a wheeling and dealing “master GM” because they won their fantasy league or beat their best buds at a video game.

Pretty amazing of the QB's you just mentioned outside of Brady nobody has carried their team to more then 1 SB win. If you look at Big Bens first win it really had nothing to do with him, same for Russell and his first win, Peyton Mannings last title. In fact if you got rid of Brady I'd say defense and run game has been more effective then Pro Bowl quarterbacks.
I don’t think you are giving Russ enough credit for XLVIII, while he didnt have eye popping fantasy football stats that game he played a great game. ......and without Russ they don’t make it to XLVIII.
 

sdog1981

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getnasty" Pretty amazing of the QB's you just mentioned outside of Brady nobody has carried their team to more then 1 SB win. If you look at Big Bens first win it really had nothing to do with him said:
That is not really true. Footballoutsiders showed that good QB's can keep an offense going at a higher level of efficacy then a defense can. Defense's suffer the most from age and loss of speed, championship level D units drop and they drop fast.
 

Seymour

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Seymour

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It also gets me curious of what a desperate team like that actually would give up for Wilson??

Not that they can have him.... :3-1:
 
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