Carolina taking their cues from the Cheatriots

[rideaducati]

What's the deal with the refs and not being able to count? Do we really want full-time employees that can't count to 12?

In all fairness, they were wearing shoes.

 

[rideaducati]

Yet everytime seattle happens to end up with 12 man on the field they're called for it instantly.....

The Seahawks get called for it if the 12th player is still 5 yards away from the huddle.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Yet everytime seattle happens to end up with 12 man on the field they're called for it instantly.....

The Seahawks get called for it if the 12th player is still 5 yards away from the huddle.

Yep.



Furthermore, we received our second, that's right SECOND DPI penalty for the freakin' year last Sunday and then the Brownies committed 2 more that weren't called. But hey yeah, officiating is even.

 

[NINEster]

Isn't it a publicly stated and known fact by everyone, including Hawk fans, that the Hawks gauge the refs plan to throw penalties and then adjust?

No, that's a gross misperception that breeds from a place of envy.

You are confusing two things. The false perception that our dominant secondary commits PI/holding more than any other team, which is simply not true. And the fact that players like Michael Bennett use their instincts to guess the snap count, and sometimes get called for encroachment for that reason.

The difference is none of the players are trying "get away" with anything, unlike the Rams . . . who are categorically the dirtiest, cheap-shoting team in the league.

Nope...no envy. I respect the Hawks game. Rams are not good enough to be in contention yet, so don't put your thoughts onto me. I'm a very fair fan.

But, I also read this board and read your fans. Your tendency towards complaining about what you also
enjoy is showing here: in my opinion.

It has been stated previously that Hawk players try to see as much as they can get away with from the refs and then adjust. So, other teams do same. And when they do it, it bothers Hawk fans?

btw: no need to argue w me. I just find it amusing. Won't be getting all hot and bothered regardless.


eta: the topic was Panthers and Hawks. Why did you take a pot shot at the Rams to me? Can you not have an intelligent discussion with a Rams fan without resorting to such? I didn't bring up the Rams, and they have ZERO to do with this topic as preseented.

I agree with Alice on this one.

And if you look hard enough, you'll find 30 other fanbases saying similar things.

12 in the huddle is subtle, while illegal contact not so subtle an advantage.

I much prefer the rule for CBs in this league to allow contact '70s and '80s style, that way what Sherman and Hawk corners do isn't so magnified. Unfortunately we'll never be able to go back to those rules.

You guys ever hear of Marc Collins? He was the Giants CB of the '80s/early '90s that routinely lined up and was often Jerry Rice's toughest opponent according to Rice. He didn't have "insane measurables" but an ability to use physicality to slow receivers. Yes, that Giants defense was better than most back in the day, but against a legit shutdown corner in Deion Sanders, Rice often had far better #s.

I refuse to believe that Sherman can shut down Antonio Brown better than anybody else in this league by such a big margin -- Brown never gets shut down that much. It's obvious there's only one tool in his arsenal that allows him to do it. That and some elite safety help never hurts.

Maybe it's a fine line and he does the best job of skirting it. It's just annoying to watch.

 

[BigMeach]

Isn't it a publicly stated and known fact by everyone, including Hawk fans, that the Hawks gauge the refs plan to throw penalties and then adjust?

No, that's a gross misperception that breeds from a place of envy.

You are confusing two things. The false perception that our dominant secondary commits PI/holding more than any other team, which is simply not true. And the fact that players like Michael Bennett use their instincts to guess the snap count, and sometimes get called for encroachment for that reason.

The difference is none of the players are trying "get away" with anything, unlike the Rams . . . who are categorically the dirtiest, cheap-shoting team in the league.

Nope...no envy. I respect the Hawks game. Rams are not good enough to be in contention yet, so don't put your thoughts onto me. I'm a very fair fan.

But, I also read this board and read your fans. Your tendency towards complaining about what you also
enjoy is showing here: in my opinion.

It has been stated previously that Hawk players try to see as much as they can get away with from the refs and then adjust. So, other teams do same. And when they do it, it bothers Hawk fans?

btw: no need to argue w me. I just find it amusing. Won't be getting all hot and bothered regardless.


eta: the topic was Panthers and Hawks. Why did you take a pot shot at the Rams to me? Can you not have an intelligent discussion with a Rams fan without resorting to such? I didn't bring up the Rams, and they have ZERO to do with this topic as preseented.

I agree with Alice on this one.

And if you look hard enough, you'll find 30 other fanbases saying similar things.

12 in the huddle is subtle, while illegal contact not so subtle an advantage.

I much prefer the rule for CBs in this league to allow contact '70s and '80s style, that way what Sherman and Hawk corners do isn't so magnified. Unfortunately we'll never be able to go back to those rules.

You guys ever hear of Marc Collins? He was the Giants CB of the '80s/early '90s that routinely lined up and was often Jerry Rice's toughest opponent according to Rice. He didn't have "insane measurables" but an ability to use physicality to slow receivers. Yes, that Giants defense was better than most back in the day, but against a legit shutdown corner in Deion Sanders, Rice often had far better #s.

I refuse to believe that Sherman can shut down Antonio Brown better than anybody else in this league by such a big margin -- Brown never gets shut down that much. It's obvious there's only one tool in his arsenal that allows him to do it. That and some elite safety help never hurts.

Maybe it's a fine line and he does the best job of skirting it. It's just annoying to watch.

Please show me where Sherman dominated Antonio Brown using illegal means. Sherman said it before the game that he couldn't believe people played off Brown instead of being physical at the line, which is legal. Then he goes out and shuts him down that way.

He told the guy how he'd beat him and then beat him, that's what All star all time players do.

Sherman rarely get's any sort of flags thrown on him, RARELY. The argument that the Seahawks commit so many holding/PI penalties by their CB's that they get away with a ton of others is ludicrous. They rarely get flagged at all and Sherman even less so. Take away the Greenbay game and I can't remember the last one he had.

Unless you can show me with stats and/or footage I don't buy it one bit.

 

[Polaris]

A lot of the criticism that the Seahawks LOB draws comes from writers (such as an infamous NY Times writer who shall remain nameless) that don't know the rules. You *are* allowed to have contact with a receiver. You ARE allowed to hit them within five yards of the LOS. You *are* allowed to face-guard. Finally, as a DB, once the ball is in the air you ARE allowed to go for it with as much right to the ball as the receiver.

What you *can't* do is use your body to *intentionally* affect the receiver's motion, i.e. you can't grab or pull (or bulldoze....Cleveland). Incidental contact (including getting feet tangled up) is considered not to be a foul. Basically the rules allow for quite a bit more than the average NFL fan realizes.

 

[olyfan63]

I think RedAlice's comments should be interpreted in the context of how our DB's play the opposing teams receivers, and how much contact the refs are allowing DBs to get away with. Think Brandon Browner mugging WR's at the line. Think Richard Sherman getting in the grill of whatever receiver he's covering.

In that context, I believe RedAlice's statements to be accurate. I don't think it's controversial or even any different than what happens at every level of sports. Coaching girls club soccer, I would regularly tell my players to adjust to how the refs are calling the game. Of course NFL players of ALL teams, not just the Seahawks, see how what the refs allow, what they can and can't get away with, and then adjust accordingly. It's silly to believe otherwise.
A similar situation would be how offensive line holding is or isn't being called by a set of refs.

Do you seriously need any "proof"? Or did you think RedAlice was talking about some other context?

No, I just think you're wrong. There is a false PERCEPTION that Seahawks DBs are getting away with illegal contact. But when they tried to tighten up the rules last year to combat this perception, it turned out the Seahawks were not creating any more illegal contact than any other team. In fact, other teams bore the brunt of this increased emphasis, while the Seahawks did not feel it at all. As it turned out, the Seahawks were good because they played with excellent technique and discipline on an every-down basis. What do you know? It was reality trumping the false perception.

You're creating a straw man here. I didn't see anyone IN THIS THREAD saying the Seahawks are/were "getting away with" illegal contact. Maybe ESPN Mediots like Skip Bayless say that, but that's just to hook people emotionally. What IS being said here is that Seahawks DB's make absolutely sure to find out where that line is with each set of game officials. Then they continually push that limit. We're also that Seattle has no monopoly on this approach to the game, but perhaps is more skillful at finding that line.

 

[hawknation2015]

I think RedAlice's comments should be interpreted in the context of how our DB's play the opposing teams receivers, and how much contact the refs are allowing DBs to get away with. Think Brandon Browner mugging WR's at the line. Think Richard Sherman getting in the grill of whatever receiver he's covering.

In that context, I believe RedAlice's statements to be accurate. I don't think it's controversial or even any different than what happens at every level of sports. Coaching girls club soccer, I would regularly tell my players to adjust to how the refs are calling the game. Of course NFL players of ALL teams, not just the Seahawks, see how what the refs allow, what they can and can't get away with, and then adjust accordingly. It's silly to believe otherwise.
A similar situation would be how offensive line holding is or isn't being called by a set of refs.

Do you seriously need any "proof"? Or did you think RedAlice was talking about some other context?

No, I just think you're wrong. There is a false PERCEPTION that Seahawks DBs are getting away with illegal contact. But when they tried to tighten up the rules last year to combat this perception, it turned out the Seahawks were not creating any more illegal contact than any other team. In fact, other teams bore the brunt of this increased emphasis, while the Seahawks did not feel it at all. As it turned out, the Seahawks were good because they played with excellent technique and discipline on an every-down basis. What do you know? It was reality trumping the false perception.

You're creating a straw man here. I didn't see anyone IN THIS THREAD saying the Seahawks are/were "getting away with" illegal contact. Maybe ESPN Mediots like Skip Bayless say that, but that's just to hook people emotionally. What IS being said here is that Seahawks DB's make absolutely sure to find out where that line is with each set of game officials. Then they continually push that limit. We're also that Seattle has no monopoly on this approach to the game, but perhaps is more skillful at finding that line.

Again, there is nothing to support your assertion. From what Richard, Sherman and others have said, they try to keep their technique consistent each game. Pushing the lines of illegal contact in order to gauge what "each set of game officials" chooses to enforce would risk a penalty and is not something I have seen them do.

 

[olyfan63]

You're the one whose "assertions" have no substance behind them; you "assert" you're "right", and assert others are "wrong". So by definition, if you assert something, it's automatically "right"? Therefore in your world it would follow you simply call anyone you disagree with wrong.

There's what Sherman says in an interview and there's what Sherman does on the field.
If Sherman notices this week's refs are not calling certain types of handfighting that got called by last week's refs, guaranteed he's going to use the more aggressive "technique" if he thinks it gives him an advantage.

Coaching middle school girls soccer, I'd often have "no rules" portions of practice where "techniques" outside the rules were allowed. The purpose was 1) To help players keep their focus when opponents used "techniques" that were outside the rules, instead of quit and whine like a helpless victim; and 2) To quickly adjust their "techniques" to what was being allowed in a given game. I can only imagine the seriousness that an amazing set of coaches like Pete and his staff would approach this "adjusting to inconsistent rules" problem with. Sure, Sherman is going to start out with consistent technique, in the middle of the range, and then quickly adjust based on what the refs that day are allowing.

Pete's staff overall coaching and player preparation even goes so far as to coach Sherman on what to say in interviews about this topic. Damn well bet Sherman and the other LOB'ers, not to mention OL, are coached to adjust at lightning speed on game day to how refs are calling it. To believe anything else... Well, you believe what you choose to believe. You really think Seahawks coaches and players would allow any potential advantage "within the rules" to go unexploited?

If you're using Sherman's interview to "support" *your* assertion--just silly. Go by what they DO on the field. And how many PI, Illegal Contact, Defensive Holding, and other penalties has Sherman racked up this year? Plenty. Sherman afraid to risk a penalty? Ridiculous.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... ties/2015/

So exactly WHAT is it you're supposedly correct about, and everyone else is wrong? You saying you're correct that Seahawks and DBs are slo clueless (or "sportsmanlike") that they don't adjust to how the refs are calling it on any given day? Are you saying you're correct that.... when Richard Sherman utters vanilla BS platitudes in polite interviews, that he absolutely makes sure he's also "polite" on the field too, to stay consistent with his words?

 

[RichNhansom]

Seahawks opponents this year have been called for holding our D-line something like 2 times all year. This against one of the best D-lines and pass rushes in the league. Do you think Opponents O-line and O-coordinators are not talking about this before they play us? We see blatant holding sometimes tackling from behind not getting called every game.

I don't know about any of you but if I am coaching an opponent I know is not getting calls, you can bet I am prepping my lineman to adjust for that and be more aggressive. IMO your a very poor coach if you don't.

 

[olyfan63]

Seahawks opponents this year have been called for holding our D-line something like 2 times all year. This against one of the best D-lines and pass rushes in the league. Do you think Opponents O-line and O-coordinators are not talking about this before they play us? We see blatant holding sometimes tackling from behind not getting called every game.

I don't know about any of you but if I am coaching an opponent I know is not getting calls, you can bet I am prepping my lineman to adjust for that and be more aggressive. IMO your a very poor coach if you don't.

Well, that's just rich. But not very handsome for us; it's simply the ugly truth.
We are "last" in the league on opponent penalties called FOR us, according to this site.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/o ... s-per-game
I'm sure there are sites that break it down by type of penalty, e.g., offensive holding, defensive holding, etc.
The eye test tells us our pass rush guys are consistently getting held and it's not getting called.
Any offensive coordinators that aren't noticing and taking advantage of this, well, they're not sharp enough to have a job in this league for very long.

Sure, why not, let's blame the Cheatriots; they showed how to hold us and get away with it in SB49, and the rest of the league has copied those trendsetters this year. (Actually, I don't really believe that; I think Cliff Avril going out with a concussion was a bigger factor in that game.)

Anyway, RichNHansom, it's Mr. York and Mr. Tomsula from the 49ers on line 1. They're looking for a new O-Coordinator skilled at moving a dumpster fire into the end zone. Obsession for "scoring" required; "rules" and "fair play" optional.

 

[mikeak]

A lot of the criticism that the Seahawks LOB draws comes from writers (such as an infamous NY Times writer who shall remain nameless) that don't know the rules. You *are* allowed to have contact with a receiver. You ARE allowed to hit them within five yards of the LOS. You *are* allowed to face-guard. Finally, as a DB, once the ball is in the air you ARE allowed to go for it with as much right to the ball as the receiver.

What you *can't* do is use your body to *intentionally* affect the receiver's motion, i.e. you can't grab or pull (or bulldoze....Cleveland). Incidental contact (including getting feet tangled up) is considered not to be a foul. Basically the rules allow for quite a bit more than the average NFL fan realizes.

You are also allowed contact if the QB is out of the pocket. Not even the experts remember this when calling games

 

[mikeak]

You can use this against Carolina if you understand the rules. When their 12th player runs off the field you substitute. If they snap the ball the play is called dead. You have to give time before snapping the ball giving the defense a chance to substitute

Edit: well explained here. Seattle should have used this in the Bengals game

http://www.footballzebras.com/2014/11/07/11856/