Defending our Receivers... Again

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

Or people might say the reason our drop % is so low is cause Russell is reluctant to force passes into tight coverage?

Saying our wrs are open and just arnt getting throw to is a bit unfair to Russ imo, watch almost any qb in the league and you'll notice it's pretty hard to see the entire field at once.

I'm not saying Baldy and tate arnt clutch but uhh..rw is clutch himself, he puts our wrs In position to make plays when it counts. Those throws where tate "bails" him out, are typically designed.

Here's a small list of fairly proven talents I'd trade straight across for Baldwin and tate, there's probably more honestly. .
Fitz, Andre Johnson, julio, green, marshall/jeffery, calvin, dez, crabtree, demaryius, Vincent Jackson, Josh gordan, desean jackson.

I really like tate honestly, this is just a response to them being some of the best in the league. You can manipulate Stats all you want and say these or those or more important and people are ignoring certain stats but Imo you're doing the same thing in different ways. I'll keep saying it, Baldwin is extremely overrated on here, but I will admit if our wrs were all healthy we'd have a solid group. It's very hard to call a wr elite without being bigger or faster than people.

 

[hawk45]

The positive here is that SF's secondary is its weakest part of its defense.

That's only a positive if our gameplan is to try and take advantage of a weaker secondary........which from listening to Pete talk about ball security, not making mistakes and trusting his defense doesn't sound like the gameplan is going to change this week.

Yeah I agree with this and I think it may be a mistake on Pete's part for this game. If you rack up 5 more 3 and outs with the prevent offense strategy than you otherwise would, that's not much different to me than a turnover although I get that for the most part when you punt they have to drive a long field.

But a strategy of running vs. the Niners is just opposite to what the matchup dictates with their great front 7 and questionable secondary. It'd be like if the Niners came out flinging the ball all over the place against our secondary (our biggest strength).

It has been working all year, yes, but the more times Wilson is shut down for 3 quarters and then asked to bail the offense out on 3rd and 7, the less effective he is at it because he's in no rythm and, I think, has difficulty shaking off the conservative attitude he has adopted all game.

 

[Shock2k]

Or people might say the reason our drop % is so low is cause Russell is reluctant to force passes into tight coverage?

Here's a small list of fairly proven talents I'd trade straight across for Baldwin and tate, there's probably more honestly. .
Fitz, Andre Johnson, julio, green, marshall/jeffery, calvin, dez, crabtree, demaryius, Vincent Jackson, Josh gordan, desean jackson.

...best in the league.

The receivers you are talking about are the Elite receivers of the league (accept maybe Crabtree). In which you need to have a really bad season and draft 1st round to get. So the comparison is a little unfair I would think. Further the guys you talk about above averaged around 130 to 150 targets during the Season.

I'm not manipulating numbers, there is nothing to manipulate. If you think FO.com does a good job then what I'm saying is true.

Tell you what, let's say we are a passing team. Take Doug Baldwins catching percentage (68% tied for 3rd in the league behind Edelman and Lance Moore), his average yards per play (15.6), and give him 70 to 80 more targets (beyond the 71 he got this season), +5 TD's in those 70 2013 Season targets.

Trust me we would all be talking about how Elite Doug Baldwin is with his 1500 (that's saying 70 more catches not 80) yards receiving and his 10+ touchdowns.

Not trying to be argumentative here, I just think we miss that these guys are among the least passed to receivers in the league. And they DID put up huge numbers this year based on the opportunities they got.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It has been working all year, yes, but the more times Wilson is shut down for 3 quarters and then asked to bail the offense out on 3rd and 7, the less effective he is at it because he's in no rythm and, I think, has difficulty shaking off the conservative attitude he has adopted all game.

Here's my fear.........that Pete is coaching like Marty Schottenheimer used to, conservative three yards and a cloud of dust, trust your defense, etc. Just about every year Schottenheimer's teams were favored to win, and every year they'd get upset in the playoffs because of "marty ball."

This game is going to be razor thin, and I don't want our ultra conservatism to bite us in the ass. If we lose 35-31 because Russell threw two picks? I'm fine with that. But if we lose 10-7 cause Pete refused to let Russell (the supposed QB he trusts 100%) not be aggressive in the passing game? Then I'm going to never forgive Pete for blowing this chance.

 

[hawk45]

Here's my fear.........that Pete is coaching like Marty Schottenheimer used to, conservative three yards and a cloud of dust, trust your defense, etc. Just about every year Schottenheimer's teams were favored to win, and every year they'd get upset in the playoffs because of "marty ball."

This game is going to be razor thin, and I don't want our ultra conservatism to bite us in the ass. If we lose 35-31 because Russell threw two picks? I'm fine with that. But if we lose 10-7 cause Pete refused to let Russell (the supposed QB he trusts 100%) not be aggressive in the passing game? Then I'm going to never forgive Pete for blowing this chance.

That's exactly where I'm coming from and it has my guts twisted up a bit. Russ is a pretty careful QB with the ball anyhow, I feel like not letting him throw it is sort of overkill on the conservatism. Russell isn't a Romo or a Favre who will shut his eyes and fling it.

I was totally fine with this strategy last week in the weather, and even not terribly up in arms about it closing out the season, when we had such a cushion. But that cushion is gone now that we're here, and San Fran can stuff that run. Not taking advantage of their weak spots to me would be nuts. They don't have many. Yeah we're down a #1 WR but again, you say you trust Wilson. Maybe he doesn't, maybe he really does think Wilson is Dilfer of 2000, but you know I have a real hard time believing that.

 

[3Girls'HawkDad]

Gentlemen. The Niners have said the same things every time they come here.

Papaki will be the first one to blink, and even if we again look like we are playing Wilson not-to lose, stopping Marshawn is easier said than done.

 

[TOPHawk]

It has been working all year, yes, but the more times Wilson is shut down for 3 quarters and then asked to bail the offense out on 3rd and 7, the less effective he is at it because he's in no rythm and, I think, has difficulty shaking off the conservative attitude he has adopted all game.

Here's my fear.........that Pete is coaching like Marty Schottenheimer used to, conservative three yards and a cloud of dust, trust your defense, etc. Just about every year Schottenheimer's teams were favored to win, and every year they'd get upset in the playoffs because of "marty ball."

Agreed. The offense should go against trend and air a couple out early in the game just to see how SF reacts.

The Week 14 game is on NFLN right now and I don't see a problem with the WRs. Tate and Baldwin were both getting some separation...that's not counting the plays to the TEs. There were a couple of throws where Wilson was just slightly off and a couple where he was right on target. If he can settle down, and not overthrow his receivers like he tends to do early in the game, the passing game should be acceptable.

Watching that game again gives me a little more confidence for Sunday. I forgot how close that game actually was.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

Or people might say the reason our drop % is so low is cause Russell is reluctant to force passes into tight coverage?

Here's a small list of fairly proven talents I'd trade straight across for Baldwin and tate, there's probably more honestly. .
Fitz, Andre Johnson, julio, green, marshall/jeffery, calvin, dez, crabtree, demaryius, Vincent Jackson, Josh gordan, desean jackson.

...best in the league.

The receivers you are talking about are the Elite receivers of the league (accept maybe Crabtree). In which you need to have a really bad season and draft 1st round to get. So the comparison is a little unfair I would think. Further the guys you talk about above averaged around 130 to 150 targets during the Season.

I'm not manipulating numbers, there is nothing to manipulate. If you think FO.com does a good job then what I'm saying is true.

Tell you what, let's say we are a passing team. Take Doug Baldwins catching percentage (68% tied for 3rd in the league behind Edelman and Lance Moore), his average yards per play (15.6), and give him 70 to 80 more targets (beyond the 71 he got this season), +5 TD's in those 70 2013 Season targets.

Trust me we would all be talking about how Elite Doug Baldwin is with his 1500 (that's saying 70 more catches not 80) yards receiving and his 10+ touchdowns.

Not trying to be argumentative here, I just think we miss that these guys are among the least passed to receivers in the league. And they DID put up huge numbers this year based on the opportunities they got.

Yeah crab probably belongs with another tier of younger guys that I'd rather have. I didn't mean manipulate as In they are make believe I'm just saying there's more to the story, in the same sense that those wrs I mentioned get targeted more, you could say our wrs have a clutch qb that's puts themselves in that position, it's hard to take any stats at face value.

Which brings me to my next point, you can't just assume Baldwin would be as efficient as he is if you targeted him a ton more. I do agree our wrs have good hands, BUT Russell does not force a lot of throws, start throwing it a lot more and the defense will give more respect to our passing game and there will be tighter windows and more challenging catches. I'm not saying that means his hands will turn to stone, but I don't think it translates as much as you make it sound. His catch avg is largely effected by the sheer fact that everyone expects us to run.

I could see Baldwin having great stats on other teams, I just don't think he has elite ability, when's the last time he ran away from someone? It is night and day seeing Percy run vs doug run, tate is pretty slow too. Doesn't mean they're bad but I think it limits their ceiling as far as throwing out numbers their capable of.

I think how we use our was Definitely limits their production, but on the flip side maybe there's a reason we don't pass more? Perhaps it's not out Philosophy, maybe Russ isn't ready to take over, maybe our wrs don't get separation, I think it has a lot to do with the latter, while still a combination of all those factors.

Either way we have a darn good team, and for how little we've focused on our was compared to other positions we've came out smelling like roses and I respect your thoughts on this even if I don't entirely agree, here's to a great run this year so far :thirishdrinkers:

 

[Shock2k]

Or people might say the reason our drop % is so low is cause Russell is reluctant to force passes into tight coverage?

Here's a small list of fairly proven talents I'd trade straight across for Baldwin and tate, there's probably more honestly. .
Fitz, Andre Johnson, julio, green, marshall/jeffery, calvin, dez, crabtree, demaryius, Vincent Jackson, Josh gordan, desean jackson.

...best in the league.

Shock2k said blah, blah, blah.

Yeah crab probably belongs with another tier of younger guys that I'd rather have. I didn't mean manipulate as In they are make believe I'm just saying there's more to the story, in the same sense that those wrs I mentioned get targeted more, you could say our wrs have a clutch qb that's puts themselves in that position, it's hard to take any stats at face value.

Which brings me to my next point, you can't just assume Baldwin would be as efficient as he is if you targeted him a ton more. I do agree our wrs have good hands, BUT Russell does not force a lot of throws, start throwing it a lot more and the defense will give more respect to our passing game and there will be tighter windows and more challenging catches. I'm not saying that means his hands will turn to stone, but I don't think it translates as much as you make it sound. His catch avg is largely effected by the sheer fact that everyone expects us to run.

I could see Baldwin having great stats on other teams, I just don't think he has elite ability, when's the last time he ran away from someone? It is night and day seeing Percy run vs doug run, tate is pretty slow too. Doesn't mean they're bad but I think it limits their ceiling as far as throwing out numbers their capable of.

I think how we use our was Definitely limits their production, but on the flip side maybe there's a reason we don't pass more? Perhaps it's not out Philosophy, maybe Russ isn't ready to take over, maybe our wrs don't get separation, I think it has a lot to do with the latter, while still a combination of all those factors.

Either way we have a darn good team, and for how little we've focused on our was compared to other positions we've came out smelling like roses and I respect your thoughts on this even if I don't entirely agree, here's to a great run this year so far :thirishdrinkers:

I see your side of it, those are fair points. I agree to disagree also. Well except for GO HAWKS! :thirishdrinkers:

 

[hawk45]

Gentlemen. The Niners have said the same things every time they come here.

Papaki will be the first one to blink, and even if we again look like we are playing Wilson not-to lose, stopping Marshawn is easier said than done.

Yeah I think you're probably right. It's difficult though, over the last few games I would say Kaepernick looks much less hesitant throwing the football and Carolina's D in Carolina is no joke at all.

I just think this week could be the week Marty-ball bites us, like it bit Marty in the playoffs when you pretty much must trust your QB to win. Your QB will HAVE to make big plays, and if you have the handcuffs on him all game, it's crazy to then throw him to the wolves in the 4th quarter. Wilson has been great at doing exactly this, but each time it seems his effectiveness at it is diminished.

Last year even before our 50 point stompings I had zero reservations about a final drive with Wilson having to do it in the air. This year has not felt that way at all (recently). This year it has felt like the defense has handed ridiculous short fields or possessions to our offense, with games on the line, and even so our offense needs like 5 cracks at it to get home.

 

[Tokadub]

This thread has a high concentration of well thought out posts the majority of them I agree with. I think our receivers are very under rated. We just have so many factors that are slowing us down on offense right now but I don't think any of it is our receivers fault.

Some people keep complaining how our guys can't get separation, but Tates 40 yard dash is faster than Earl Thomas and .01 slower than Harvin. Both Tate and Baldwin have elite athleticism which can be seen in past punt and kick returns as well as all the insane plays they have made this year.

I just think Bevell does not design good plays for our passing offense. So many times we just have guys running straight up the sideline which works due to their ability to go up and get the ball. But we would have a lot better chance getting separation with some well designed plays involving several receivers in one area, crossing routes screens etc. it looks like our plays are designed as if we had a good offensive line to give Them time to develop... Not the case we need fast and efficient passing for consistent first downs.

My #1 concern losing to 49ers is trying to force the run when it isn't working. A few more passing plays could win us the game and I know Carroll and Bevell will be reluctant to call them and if they do Bevell will likely only have a handful of good calls.

 

[Mr.Hawkbrah]

Who a a a a there buddy. I would never consider them elite,Tate and Baldwin are not even in the same breath as Percy as far as athleticism. That's more ridiculous the all my posts calling rice a bum. Earl is explosively quick, it just jumps out at you, Imo tate And bald don't have that I certainly don't see it.

But regardless I do think our lackluster passing attack could be improved with some different plays.

 

[chris98251]

I think there is a persception issue with being open and getting seperation. Position on a defender and trusting the WR is still being open without seperation, the key is the QB has to as the term used by many is throwing them open. We don't do a lot of that. We also don't throw a lot of passes to WR's in stride for break aways. Those types of plays and YAC is where we need to improve going forward. They are also riskier because they tend to be in the middle of the field and routes can be jumped.