Good Gawd Our Offensive line sucks!

[Sgt. Largent]

Agreed. Backups can't be expected to as good as starters. However, the issue is that many of starters are below average or not very consistent. They also make quite a bit of rookie like errors (false starts, etc). This is the biggest issue I have is that there is a lack of improvement across the board.
.

IMO dumb mistakes like false starts and offsides is a lack of focus, and that's on the player, not the coach.

Coaches are responsible for game planning, teaching technique, schemes, etc. Okung's been in the league for four years, and still false starts all the time. That ain't coaching, if it was then all the lineman would be doing it.

IMO this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple. Can't make a gourmet meal with cat food.

 

[SomersetHawk]

Agreed. Backups can't be expected to as good as starters. However, the issue is that many of starters are below average or not very consistent. They also make quite a bit of rookie like errors (false starts, etc). This is the biggest issue I have is that there is a lack of improvement across the board.
.

IMO dumb mistakes like false starts and offsides is a lack of focus, and that's on the player, not the coach.

Coaches are responsible for game planning, teaching technique, schemes, etc. Okung's been in the league for four years, and still false starts all the time. That ain't coaching, if it was then all the lineman would be doing it.

IMO this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple. Can't make a gourmet meal with cat food.

And who do you hold responsible for that?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Agreed. Backups can't be expected to as good as starters. However, the issue is that many of starters are below average or not very consistent. They also make quite a bit of rookie like errors (false starts, etc). This is the biggest issue I have is that there is a lack of improvement across the board.
.

IMO dumb mistakes like false starts and offsides is a lack of focus, and that's on the player, not the coach.

Coaches are responsible for game planning, teaching technique, schemes, etc. Okung's been in the league for four years, and still false starts all the time. That ain't coaching, if it was then all the lineman would be doing it.

IMO this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple. Can't make a gourmet meal with cat food.

And who do you hold responsible for that?

Pete and John primarily, and I know Cable does have input into O-line drafting and FA signings. Not sure how much, but Pete has commented about certain lineman like Sweezy, Carp and Britt being "Cable guys"..........which confirms that Cable has input. Final say? Doubt it, but definitely input.

 

[AgentDib]

Here's a link on FieldGulls to Alex Gibbs ZBS videos. Worth watching if you haven't seen them yet.

There are obviously a lot of things going wrong here. ZBS is highly dependent on teamwork and communication, and as a result I think it is fair to say that we are more vulnerable to injuries than the Man blocking teams are. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of guys that have trouble staying healthy. Some part of that is bad luck, and some part of that is on the FO building a teamwork dependent scheme around fragile guys. I don't think there is much merit to discussing the coaching itself given the injuries. No line would look good with a 4th string center who joined the team after the preseason.

 

[Anonymous]

Here's a link on FieldGulls to Alex Gibbs ZBS videos. Worth watching if you haven't seen them yet.

There are obviously a lot of things going wrong here. ZBS is highly dependent on teamwork and communication, and as a result I think it is fair to say that we are more vulnerable to injuries than the Man blocking teams are. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of guys that have trouble staying healthy. Some part of that is bad luck, and some part of that is on the FO building a teamwork dependent scheme around fragile guys. I don't think there is much merit to discussing the coaching itself given the injuries. No line would look good with a 4th string center who joined the team after the preseason.

Well said, Dib.

There has got to be more than a few "oh crap" moments, for those guys, once the play develops.

 

[Basis4day]

Agreed. Backups can't be expected to as good as starters. However, the issue is that many of starters are below average or not very consistent. They also make quite a bit of rookie like errors (false starts, etc). This is the biggest issue I have is that there is a lack of improvement across the board.
.

IMO dumb mistakes like false starts and offsides is a lack of focus, and that's on the player, not the coach.

Coaches are responsible for game planning, teaching technique, schemes, etc. Okung's been in the league for four years, and still false starts all the time. That ain't coaching, if it was then all the lineman would be doing it.

IMO this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple. Can't make a gourmet meal with cat food.

I think the issue is the "starters" have never been the starters for any consistent amount of time. There is no continuation because the O-Line is never the same line up week to week. Take away Unger who calls the protections and Miller who has the most experience in the Cable system and you're going to have problems.

So if you say, "this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple" it doesn't get to the heart of the problem as there really is no O-Line.

 

[hawkfan68]

Here's a link on FieldGulls to Alex Gibbs ZBS videos. Worth watching if you haven't seen them yet.

There are obviously a lot of things going wrong here. ZBS is highly dependent on teamwork and communication, and as a result I think it is fair to say that we are more vulnerable to injuries than the Man blocking teams are. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of guys that have trouble staying healthy. Some part of that is bad luck, and some part of that is on the FO building a teamwork dependent scheme around fragile guys. I don't think there is much merit to discussing the coaching itself given the injuries. No line would look good with a 4th string center who joined the team after the preseason.

The OL has had issues for multiple seasons. Not just one game or this season. It's been the weakest link on the team since Carroll has taken over. Cable came on in 2011 and while the run blocking has improved, the OL hasn't been consistent since he's been here. Coaches have to be held accountable for the issues associated with subpar results.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

So if you say, "this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple" it doesn't get to the heart of the problem as there really is no O-Line.

I think if all five starters could actually be on the field for an extended period of games, then they could develop into a good O-line. But like others have said, health has prevented this from happening.

Instead we have a continuous break in continuity and talent in and out of games, which has created what we now now, a mess and Russell running for his life 50% of the time.

So sorry, it's not just a simple answer of Cable's fault, or Pete's fault, or John's fault, or the player's fault, etc. Unless you want to blame the FO for not spending more draft picks and resources into creating good depth for a line that has a history of not staying healthy.

 

[HawkerD]

I am disparaging the O-line not individual O-lineman. What does it matter what individual is playing? The bottom line is O-line performance this season has been shitty. If that is because we have had injuries, how does that change the fact the O-lines play has sucked.

Anyone who says, "if this person or that person wasn't injured blah blah blah" is missing the point which is the o-line has played like shit regardless of who is in there.

The only way to fix it is to stop having players get injured, coach up the players you have to be serviceable or get better players who don't get injured.

This might be a bad example because the saints lost and Baltimore had 4 sacks but Drew Brees had a lot of time last night given he threw the ball 45 times. RW was sacked twice as many times and only had half the number of attempts. Every game I watch I take notice of the teams O-lines and we have to be near the bottom especially in Pass Pro. For QBs with more than 150 attempts, RW is getting sacked at a .086/attempt rate; good for 6th worst. If you consider how many "Houdini" moves he has made the result could be a lot worse.

OK, so I know I am a glass half empty kind of person (just born that way. I know...it's a drag) but anyone who thinks that we can continue season after season with out a significant upgrades (personnel, scheme or coaching) on the OL is overly optimistic about what this team can achieve.

 

[Basis4day]

So if you say, "this O-line is just not a very talented line, plain and simple" it doesn't get to the heart of the problem as there really is no O-Line.

I think if all five starters could actually be on the field for an extended period of games, then they could develop into a good O-line. But like others have said, health has prevented this from happening.

Instead we have a continuous break in continuity and talent in and out of games, which has created what we now now, a mess and Russell running for his life 50% of the time.

So sorry, it's not just a simple answer of Cable's fault, or Pete's fault, or John's fault, or the player's fault, etc. Unless you want to blame the FO for not spending more draft picks and resources into creating good depth for a line that has a history of not staying healthy.

Not at all. Based on this response i think we pretty much agree. I have difficulty with the premise of discussing the O-Line's play as I don't think we really have one.

 

[Mojambo]

Britt probably had his roughest game of the year as did Bailey. I think having Lem back in there with his familiarity of the offense and lines calls could help a little bit.

He has been garbage all season

Not true.

He HAS been a rookie all season, and has played like it, but Britt has flashed potential in a number of games. He is hurt more than any other lineman by Unger and Miller being out.

 

[hawkfan68]

Here's a link on FieldGulls to Alex Gibbs ZBS videos. Worth watching if you haven't seen them yet.

There are obviously a lot of things going wrong here. ZBS is highly dependent on teamwork and communication, and as a result I think it is fair to say that we are more vulnerable to injuries than the Man blocking teams are. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of guys that have trouble staying healthy. Some part of that is bad luck, and some part of that is on the FO building a teamwork dependent scheme around fragile guys. I don't think there is much merit to discussing the coaching itself given the injuries. No line would look good with a 4th string center who joined the team after the preseason.

I reviewing the link on ZBS and the videos you provided... I don't believe that the Seahawks personnel is geared for ZBS. It just seems they have power guys (except for Unger) who aren't as quick and athletic for ZBS. Carpenter is as nimble as an elephant. Sweezy, Britt, and Bailey seem to forget which guy to block at times in games. It just seems too complex for the players they have currently. A more simple approach where they don't have to think too hard which guy to take, etc would be more effective. Especially since the guy, Unger, they rely on to set things straight is injured (and is injury prone).

 

[SomersetHawk]

I reviewing the link on ZBS and the videos you provided... I don't believe that the Seahawks personnel is geared for ZBS. It just seems they have power guys (except for Unger) who aren't as quick and athletic for ZBS. Carpenter is as nimble as an elephant. Sweezy, Britt, and Bailey seem to forget which guy to block at times in games. It just seems too complex for the players they have currently. A more simple approach where they don't have to think too hard which guy to take, etc would be more effective. Especially since the guy, Unger, they rely on to set things straight is injured (and is injury prone).

Sweezy and Britt are actually really impressive athletes and I believe that Bailey tested pretty well in the agility stuff for a big guy. Unger and Okung were obviously inherited by Cable and whilst neither are off the sparq charts, they're not slouches.

I'm more willing to buy your argument about it being too complex though. Britt comes from a completely different system and Sweezy was playing D-line a couple of years ago (and he's only starting to find consistency now).

Unger's durability is certainly an issue, I wouldn't be surprised if we were checking out some centers in the next draft.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Some of this needs to be laid at the feet of the FO, not Cable.

Apparently Cable is able to sometimes (sometimes) get by with 6th round draft picks and converted 7th round D-linemen. So that is that what they give him to work with.

We even let other Oline pieces go in FA, without really putting in place any serious effort to replace them. Somehow I think Breno would have been helpful this year.

I understand we need to be able to afford Wilson, but it won't help to pay the guy and find out we stripped the rest of the team so badly he cannot do anything anyway.

I honestly feel this is one of the worst Olines I have seen the Seahawks have, and I have seen some bad lines over the years. (Before Walter and Hutch of course).

Not sure it is fair to demand Cable produce with backup practice squad centers and green as grass rookies that might be too slow or too small to play their position in the first place. But no worries, Marshawn can just bull through 4-5 attempted tackles and get 4 yards anyway, right? And Russ can just scramble around and heave it off to the TE who broke open, wait that TE is injured too...

Some of this is on injuries but some is on some really poor planning.

 

[hawkfan68]

I reviewing the link on ZBS and the videos you provided... I don't believe that the Seahawks personnel is geared for ZBS. It just seems they have power guys (except for Unger) who aren't as quick and athletic for ZBS. Carpenter is as nimble as an elephant. Sweezy, Britt, and Bailey seem to forget which guy to block at times in games. It just seems too complex for the players they have currently. A more simple approach where they don't have to think too hard which guy to take, etc would be more effective. Especially since the guy, Unger, they rely on to set things straight is injured (and is injury prone).

Sweezy and Britt are actually really impressive athletes and I believe that Bailey tested pretty well in the agility stuff for a big guy. Unger and Okung were obviously inherited by Cable and whilst neither are off the sparq charts, they're not slouches.

I'm more willing to buy your argument about it being too complex though. Britt comes from a completely different system and Sweezy was playing D-line a couple of years ago (and he's only starting to find consistency now).

Unger's durability is certainly an issue, I wouldn't be surprised if we were checking out some centers in the next draft.

Good points, SomersetHawk. The reason why I believe (i may be off base in my thinking) that they would be more effective with a less complex system, is that they are doing well at run blocking. Run blocking is really a power scheme. Just knock the man in front you off their rocker (more power than finesse). Considering Cable's main focus is the run game, it seems to play to that strength.

The OL should be credited, along with Lynch and Wilson, for the success of the rushing attack. This is why I feel they are overthinking stuff and not reacting well in other instances. Then again, I'm at the practices so I'm not in the know what they are doing there. I'm speaking from what I am seeing on game days.

ZBS requires a lot of communication and teamwork. Shuffling new players in and out, stunts the progress here. So wouldn't it be a good idea to keep things simple because of the need to bring in players? Especially young players like Britt, Lewis, Bailey, et al.

 

[mikeak]

It is a tactic to make RW look less good and then save a few millions when they re-sign him. THEN they will tell the O-line to play good....

 

[hawkfan68]

Some of this needs to be laid at the feet of the FO, not Cable.

Apparently Cable is able to sometimes (sometimes) get by with 6th round draft picks and converted 7th round D-linemen. So that is that what they give him to work with.

We even let other Oline pieces go in FA, without really putting in place any serious effort to replace them. Somehow I think Breno would have been helpful this year.

I understand we need to be able to afford Wilson, but it won't help to pay the guy and find out we stripped the rest of the team so badly he cannot do anything anyway.

I honestly feel this is one of the worst Olines I have seen the Seahawks have, and I have seen some bad lines over the years. (Before Walter and Hutch of course).

Not sure it is fair to demand Cable produce with backup practice squad centers and green as grass rookies that might be too slow or too small to play their position in the first place. But no worries, Marshawn can just bull through 4-5 attempted tackles and get 4 yards anyway, right? And Russ can just scramble around and heave it off to the TE who broke open, wait that TE is injured too...

Some of this is on injuries but some is on some really poor planning.

Roster limits and salary cap prevents adding extra depth (can't expect to have quality depth at 3rd or 4th string). For example, preseason they had Miller, McCoy, Willson, and Helfet. Most likely if all had stayed healthy, Helfet would have been the odd man out. McCoy got injured before the regular season and IR'd. Then Miller got hurt and there was hope he'd be back...eventually they had to give up because his injury wasn't healing faster. So they were out of two guys they projected to start out with. So I'm not sure what the FO could have done to ensure enough quality depth. Luckily they are able to pick up someone like Moeaki this late in the season at TE. That was great find. Tukuafu is another nice grab from the FO. LJP who knows the system should help out, the FO acted quickly and grabbed him at the first available moment. I think they are doing what they can.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

It is a tactic to make RW look less good and then save a few millions when they re-sign him. THen they will tell the O-line to play good....

LOL :lol:

 

[MontanaHawk05]

What does it matter what individual is playing?

What kind of question is that? If your center is a fourth-stringer, you're likely to have problems. Just common sense.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Wait a second Montana. Are you telling me that the O-Line would be better with a Pro-Bowl Center, instead of a 4th string Center? Or w/out a backup at Guard? Strange stuff :lol: