Our Receivers

[StoneCold]

They have one of the highest catch to target ratios in the league. Why do we think they are average?

SC

 

[brimsalabim]

Last week in the third we finally ran some slants and guess what? Baldwin got wide open and Russell hit him in stride.

 

[brimsalabim]

They have one of the highest catch to target ratios in the league. Why do we think they are average?

SC

I think this comes from the unit as a holes difficulty getting separation. I haven't heard it as much this year but last season on the NFL network Dion and Irvin were both adamant that it has more to due with our route trees than our receivers.

 

[Spin Doctor]

They have one of the highest catch to target ratios in the league. Why do we think they are average?

SC

I can guarantee you that the high target to catch ratio is due to our offensive philosophy and Russell Wilson himself. The first point I need to make is that we do not throw many contested balls. Go watch Greenbay, Denver, San Diego, Indy, etc. All of them love to get their playmakers into one on one situations, and when they do the QB's of those teams will usually throw the ball to that receiver regardless of whether they are open or not. Seattle does not do that, Wilson will only pull the trigger if his guy is open. Our receivers hardly ever have to come down with contested balls, that right there will skew catch rates significantly.

Russell's scrambling also tends to get at least one player on the Seahawks wide open on a consistent basis, Russell will then usually throw a touch pass. That, again will affect catch rates significantly.

Yes our wide receivers are very mediocre, just watch the games and you will see. They struggle to get any kind separation, and they do not know how to comeback to the ball when Russell scrambles (aside from Baldwin). None of our wide receivers know how to high point the ball, and the one guy that can is wildly inconsistent (Kearse). Our wide receivers have below average ball skills, and they also tend to run lazy routes.

Don't get me wrong, Baldwin is a great wide receiver, it is just that he is playing out of position. Really he is a slot receiver in the same mold as the likes of Stockley. He's more of a quick cut, great route runner kind of guy. Those players are very valuable, and NFL teams will go to great lengths to get that type of player, HOWEVER they should not be counted on to be your offenses primary receiving threat. Because of our terrible receiving corps, Baldwin is playing out of position.

 

[Seahawker86]

8)

Yet they are winning, and these guy DO make plays. They won the whole damn thing last year with this "average at best" core. Just sayin. And it's not like Russ hasn't been running for his life a good portion of the time.

All true but again does not change the facts they are at best Avg.

How about them being average doesn't change the fact that we still won The Superbowl last year with them. Just saying'

Go Hawks

 

[LawlessHawk]

GT 2013; 16 games; 64 catches; 898 yards; 14.0 Avg. (his best as a Seahawk)
DB 2013; 16 games; 50 catches; 778 yards; 15.6 Avg. (2nd best as a Seahawk)
DB 2014; 16 games (projected); 65 catches; 758 yards; 11.6 Avg.

Passing 2013; 257 for 407; 3357
Passing 2014; 290 for 457; 3358 (projected)

I'm not completely convinced that if we'd have kept Golden Tate and ADB had gone to Detroit there would be much difference in their 2014 numbers... Golden might be good for a little more YAC, where Doug was able to stretch the field more with GT here...

 

[StoneCold]

They have one of the highest catch to target ratios in the league. Why do we think they are average?

SC

I can guarantee you that the high target to catch ratio is due to our offensive philosophy and Russell Wilson himself. The first point I need to make is that we do not throw many contested balls. Go watch Greenbay, Denver, San Diego, Indy, etc. All of them love to get their playmakers into one on one situations, and when they do the QB's of those teams will usually throw the ball to that receiver regardless of whether they are open or not. Seattle does not do that, Wilson will only pull the trigger if his guy is open. Our receivers hardly ever have to come down with contested balls, that right there will skew catch rates significantly.

Russell's scrambling also tends to get at least one player on the Seahawks wide open on a consistent basis, Russell will then usually throw a touch pass. That, again will affect catch rates significantly.

Yes our wide receivers are very mediocre, just watch the games and you will see. They struggle to get any kind separation, and they do not know how to comeback to the ball when Russell scrambles (aside from Baldwin). None of our wide receivers know how to high point the ball, and the one guy that can is wildly inconsistent (Kearse). Our wide receivers have below average ball skills, and they also tend to run lazy routes.

Don't get me wrong, Baldwin is a great wide receiver, it is just that he is playing out of position. Really he is a slot receiver in the same mold as the likes of Stockley. He's more of a quick cut, great route runner kind of guy. Those players are very valuable, and NFL teams will go to great lengths to get that type of player, HOWEVER they should not be counted on to be your offenses primary receiving threat. Because of our terrible receiving corps, Baldwin is playing out of position.

I disagree, in a good natured way. Pete is the reason we are careful with the ball and I think our receivers are very good at scramble drills. It's one of the reasons you will see 10 different guys catching passes. We are a run first team. In passing we spread it around more and are more careful with the ball and that ends up making our receivers numbers look less than average.

SC

 

[DJrmb]

an "Elite #1 Receiver" is the most over rated position in the league, especially here in Seattle it seems. Maybe it's because we haven't had one in so long?

An elite #1 WR is not necessary for this team. Would it hurt us to have one? Of course not, every team would love to have the luxury of a #1 WR, but it's definitely a long ways down the totem pole in importance to this team.

What we need more is specific role players. In a WR corps you want to have a few key "types" of WR. I kind of think of it like we have different vehicles for different jobs. You aren't going to use a dump truck as your daily driver, and you aren't going to use a Lamborghini for off-roading. They're are Hybrid vehicles that you can use for multiple jobs but you could just as well do the same job with separate vehicles that were made specifically for the job at hand.

The roles you want to fulfill in your WR corps:

Possession receiver
You want a possession guy that is sure handed and can make the tough catch along the sideline in clutch situations, usually your 3rd down specialist.
- IE Doug Baldwin

Speed receiver
You want the speedster to spread out the defense (vertically and horizontally) and threaten over the top by getting behind the defense
- IE Paul Richardson

YAC receiver
You want the YAC guy that can make the contested catch over the middle, has the courage to go over the middle, and has balance to stay on his feet for some chance at yardage after the catch
- This is something we've missed this year. Last year this was Tate, and towards the end of the year Kearse was looking like he could fulfill this role but this year he's struggled. Norwood may also be this type of guy but I'm not sure yet, he needs more time to show where he fits best and if he can grow into a specific role like Kearse did last year.

Outside Threat Receiver
Finally you want the Outside Threat WR that can make the contested jump ball catch outside and over the top. Someone great at High pointing the ball and that has large and strong hands to take those 50/50 balls away from the defender. Someone that has the length to be able to throw over the defender at times.
- This is the main thing we are missing and what we have been missing for some time. This role is often what I think is misconceived as a #1 WR. They tried to find this kind of role in TO and Braylon Edwards in RW's rookie year. We also saw them fulfill this role with BMW (Big Mike Williams) way back before Russell's time. They also utilized Tate a bit in this role even though he is not ideal for it, but this years team has no one at all that's stepped up into this role. This is not something you need a #1 WR for (although a #1 WR can, and often times does fulfill this role).

Now a true #1 WR is a bit subjective but my definition is a guy that fulfills at least 3 of those roles. Those are very Elite players and coveted around the league by everyone. However you can get the same job done as long as your entire WR group can fulfill all the roles throughout a game as needed. You do not necessarily need that #1 type guy to have a productive and good WR group. That's how guys like Tom Brady were able to succeed with "Pedestrian WR groups". They filled all the roles and Tom knew which guy to go to for each specific role and spread the ball out well amongst those different talents. Similar to how teams moved to multi-back systems now instead of having the true #1 RB or "Feature Back" from years past.

 

[Year of The Hawk]

It is kinda funny because the whole point of my post was to point out how fun it was to watch them (whether we like them or not). I should have figured it would have evolved to a debate of our receiving core. I personally like them and there attitudes but would not mind seeing a tall fast threat either.

 

[HawkWow]

It's more than us being a running team although that is a lot of it. What PC and JS understand all to well is that you pick your poison. Lots of people lamenting the loss of Tate. We all knew he'd have a big year in Detroit, but he's not winning another ring there. Well not this year anyway. What has turned out so sweet with trading Harvin for essentially nothing, is that with the saving on the cap of his salary next year AND Tates, the reality of re-signing not only RW but KJ and BWags is very likely. Had we kept one or both of them, we're looking for new LB's next year.

The bottom line is they know that there has to be an area on the team where you live on the cheap in this league. PC is all about the ball. That means run more, throw less (take less chances for t.o.'s). Then it's D and finally bad ass special teams.

They have this figured out for real. No chance you're gonna see a 10M a year WR while this Defense is this young and talented. All the $ going to RW and those horses on the Defensive side.

We signed Harvin at 11 mil/year with this defense. All you need is 1 mismatch on one side of the field and it changes the way teams have to play you. If there's someone you have to respect running out there, then you have to roll safety help or do something else imbalanced, and that's when you can find soft spots to attack a defense.

We rarely attack soft spots. We bludgeon a team and create soft spots. We don't have to spend huge money on it, guys like Richardson or Norwood can develop into that. People also seem to forget, Tate was good, but there were large stretches (especially in the playoffs) where he disappeared altogether.

Solid post. I'm not going to dwell on the Harvin fiasco here (though I've been known to do so) but had he been more of a deep threat (he's not), the signing would have made sense for the reasons you cite. I love the fact we are getting back to creating soft spots, as you suggest. Russ doesn't want to throw his guys open so we have to create weakness', then exploit them. The good news is we do that better than anyone else. Much more than a go guy, or a guy brought in to just "take the top off of defenses", I'd like to see a big, strong possession type guy that can run after catch (Ala Dez). BUT...I think we have a go guy in Rich and Norwood could easily add a bit of strength to his frame and become a suitable (cheap) version of Dez, a go-up guy that can also run.

I'm liking the little we've seen in these rooks. More and more we see them developing into guys that track the scrambling Russ. That was Norwoods forte' in college, Richardson not as much, but he's starting to do just that with us / Russ. I sure want to see these two finish strong so we don't feel compelled to go WR early in the draft.

 

[HuskerHawk]

The tough thing about our wide receivers is I love them to death. All of them are top notch competitors and guys who make clutch plays more than not. Doug Baldwin is probably one of my favorite players in the league. That doesn't stop me however from recognizing they are just not all that great. The position needs to be upgraded along with the o-line.

 

[Scottemojo]

There is no need for a Julio Clone in Seattle. A desire? For sure, who doesn't want one of those guys, those top shelf number ones that number about 5 in this league. They are more rare than legit quarterbacks.

What we do need is a box out red zone target who is a hands catcher. A Joe Jureviscious. A declining but still dangerous in the red zone Larry Fitzgerald. A guy who can run a legit fade, which opens the near pylon up for back shoulder stuff.

 

[HawkWow]

The tough thing about our wide receivers is I love them to death. All of them are top notch competitors and guys who make clutch plays more than not. Doug Baldwin is probably one of my favorite players in the league. That doesn't stop me however from recognizing they are just not all that great. The position needs to be upgraded along with the o-line.

Not arguing your point but we have upgraded. We lost Tate but added Rich and Norwood. Return duty aside, Norwood alone should be as good as Tate (and nobody wanted us to keep Tate more than myself).

Richardson just needs reps and reps will bring his swag back. He has great speed but Pete seems bent on adding another dimension to him this year. That will pay off big and I think he will prove to be formidable.

I would love to get a guy in FA, but a sure fire guy (Dez) will cost a fortune. I think OL and DL should be our top 4 picks (unless there's a player we just can't pass on). Grabbing another receiver early in the draft will surely pay off...but likely not real soon.

Basically, I guess I'm just trying to say the group of receivers we have this year should look entirely different, vastly improved, next year and they are cheap. I'm excited to see this group gel and it would be sweet if we could better develop Lockette. I also think we need to keep Kearse, as unpopular as that opinion is.

 

[LOB4UandME]

It's more than us being a running team although that is a lot of it. What PC and JS understand all to well is that you pick your poison. Lots of people lamenting the loss of Tate. We all knew he'd have a big year in Detroit, but he's not winning another ring there. Well not this year anyway. What has turned out so sweet with trading Harvin for essentially nothing, is that with the saving on the cap of his salary next year AND Tates, the reality of re-signing not only RW but KJ and BWags is very likely. Had we kept one or both of them, we're looking for new LB's next year.

The bottom line is they know that there has to be an area on the team where you live on the cheap in this league. PC is all about the ball. That means run more, throw less (take less chances for t.o.'s). Then it's D and finally bad ass special teams.

They have this figured out for real. No chance you're gonna see a 10M a year WR while this Defense is this young and talented. All the $ going to RW and those horses on the Defensive side.

That is fine then no one should be complaining about the passing game, or if Rw leaves since he wants to be the best and it is obvious that will not happen here.

RW leaving?? I forgot the nature of the interview question he got but it was something about later in life. he said how about i qb the seahawks for the next 10-15 years with his boyish giggle.

He's won a SB, he says all the time that stats really mean nothing to him, he's got an unbelievably young and fantastically talented team that is poised to have a Dynasty more than any organization in some time. Essentially you're calling him a liar

 

[LOB4UandME]

Actually we had this other guy named Golden Tate who happened to be our #1. Losing him for what ever reason took the WRs down a significant notch. We were significantly better with him (especially on STs)

I agree he was a legit #2 on most good teams, and loosing him hurts.

Except he's playing like a legitimate number 1 right now.....

No he's not. In fact ESPN said in watching the game that although Tate is having a great year, when Megatron is out there you realize Tate is a 2. He always will be.

 

[LOB4UandME]

The tough thing about our wide receivers is I love them to death. All of them are top notch competitors and guys who make clutch plays more than not. Doug Baldwin is probably one of my favorite players in the league. That doesn't stop me however from recognizing they are just not all that great. The position needs to be upgraded along with the o-line.

If it were only as easy as asking for the "upgrade" genie to show up i'd agree. How do you pay for this upgraded WR corps and OL?? Who do you sacrifice?? The salary cap is ever looming. PC/JS understand the balance. After RW, KJ, Bwags get new contracts, don't look for any big name free agents, because we won't be able to afford them. Let's not forget trying to keep Lynch. This is why Jared Allen signed with Chicago after 2 visits here. sure he wants a ring, and knows this was his best opportunity for that, but he likes $ more. Tate the same way.

Something has to give, fellas

Developing these draft guys into good dependable players isn't an option, it's a necessity.

 

[Grahamhawker]

How many caught passes vs the Eagles? 10, wasn't it...? That's pretty balanced for a run-1st offense.

Thing is, with a Bryant, Jones, etc. you HAVE to throw them the ball. Right now it's an equal opportunity option among all the Hawks' receivers. And I think I kinda like it. It also adds a sort of "rope-a-dope" element to the passing game.

 

[theincrediblesok]

It's more than us being a running team although that is a lot of it. What PC and JS understand all to well is that you pick your poison. Lots of people lamenting the loss of Tate. We all knew he'd have a big year in Detroit, but he's not winning another ring there. Well not this year anyway. What has turned out so sweet with trading Harvin for essentially nothing, is that with the saving on the cap of his salary next year AND Tates, the reality of re-signing not only RW but KJ and BWags is very likely. Had we kept one or both of them, we're looking for new LB's next year.

The bottom line is they know that there has to be an area on the team where you live on the cheap in this league. PC is all about the ball. That means run more, throw less (take less chances for t.o.'s). Then it's D and finally bad ass special teams.

They have this figured out for real. No chance you're gonna see a 10M a year WR while this Defense is this young and talented. All the $ going to RW and those horses on the Defensive side.

We signed Harvin at 11 mil/year with this defense. All you need is 1 mismatch on one side of the field and it changes the way teams have to play you. If there's someone you have to respect running out there, then you have to roll safety help or do something else imbalanced, and that's when you can find soft spots to attack a defense.

We rarely attack soft spots. We bludgeon a team and create soft spots. We don't have to spend huge money on it, guys like Richardson or Norwood can develop into that. People also seem to forget, Tate was good, but there were large stretches (especially in the playoffs) where he disappeared altogether.

Solid post. I'm not going to dwell on the Harvin fiasco here (though I've been known to do so) but had he been more of a deep threat (he's not), the signing would have made sense for the reasons you cite. I love the fact we are getting back to creating soft spots, as you suggest. Russ doesn't want to throw his guys open so we have to create weakness', then exploit them. The good news is we do that better than anyone else. Much more than a go guy, or a guy brought in to just "take the top off of defenses", I'd like to see a big, strong possession type guy that can run after catch (Ala Dez). BUT...I think we have a go guy in Rich and Norwood could easily add a bit of strength to his frame and become a suitable (cheap) version of Dez, a go-up guy that can also run.

I'm liking the little we've seen in these rooks. More and more we see them developing into guys that track the scrambling Russ. That was Norwoods forte' in college, Richardson not as much, but he's starting to do just that with us / Russ. I sure want to see these two finish strong so we don't feel compelled to go WR early in the draft.

This is what I'm hoping for as well for the rooks. They have been getting more and more reps and looking better and better everytime we see them play. I'm wondering if Pete is slowly getting them use to game speed and their playbooks. Start out with all the easy routes first and when they finally get it, move them on up to the more advance routes.