Penny on special teams.

[Northwest Seahawk]

5.4 AND 4.8 YPC IN HIS LAST TWO GAMES PLAYED ON 9 CARRIES. The first 3 games i'm throwing out he was coming off injury the O-line wasn't right and neither was the play calling. Let's not pretend like he hasn't played well in the last 2 games he played because he did the numbers are the numbers.

At Cardinals 9 carries 5.4 ypc
At Raiders 9 carries 4.6 ypc

 

[LudwigsDrummer]

It's a flippin' discussion board folks! If you just can't live without Kumbaya for 10 minutes then boy scouts or girls scouts may be a better choice. :2thumbs:

I liked the Penny pick and absolutely do not want him to fail, nor have I called him a bust. That does not mean I will turn a blind eye to the fact that we tend to fail with our early pick far too often either.

If there wasn't ever a 2nd side to each discussion then this board would die an instant death. Be careful what you ask for.

We all come here for our own reasons.
My reasons are because I come here to look for insight, news, stats I'm not aware of, injury updates, ect. I don't come here to read about other things I can gripe about.
I usually won't focus at all on how we do in early rounds because we do so well in the later rounds that it more than makes up for any deficiency of early draft picks, and believe me, I know how we do with all of our picks.
We can gripe about the Harvin and Graham trades, but I say trading for Marshawn more than makes up for the Harvin and Graham trade.
So, I like to look big picture. The whole thing, and it tells me the right guys are still in charge of our team. The way the team is playing now validates that.
So, if I want to complain, I can find plenty to complain about. I would rather focus on the things we are doing right, while being aware of the things that don't seem right.

So then....what exactly did you expect to read in the "Penny on Special Teams" thread then?

Sounds like a good thread to "complain about the complainers" to me. :34853_doh:

If you want to focus mainly on things we are doing right, there is little room for discussion there huh?

I didn't expect to see anything extreme on the Penny thread. Your view as a complain about complainers thread is your own.
This is not unlike a "Yay Solari" thread that instantly turns into a anti Cable thread.
This is just my perspective.

 

[Bobblehead]

My complaint isn't about Penny, Penny is who he is, but rather about the Hawks always going for the 2 in the bush, instead of getting that one sure player at hand. Seems every 1st rounder we've gotten in the last several years since, the Harvin fiasco has been nothing but losers.

 

[Seymour]

It's a flippin' discussion board folks! If you just can't live without Kumbaya for 10 minutes then boy scouts or girls scouts may be a better choice. :2thumbs:

I liked the Penny pick and absolutely do not want him to fail, nor have I called him a bust. That does not mean I will turn a blind eye to the fact that we tend to fail with our early pick far too often either.

If there wasn't ever a 2nd side to each discussion then this board would die an instant death. Be careful what you ask for.

We all come here for our own reasons.
My reasons are because I come here to look for insight, news, stats I'm not aware of, injury updates, ect. I don't come here to read about other things I can gripe about.
I usually won't focus at all on how we do in early rounds because we do so well in the later rounds that it more than makes up for any deficiency of early draft picks, and believe me, I know how we do with all of our picks.
We can gripe about the Harvin and Graham trades, but I say trading for Marshawn more than makes up for the Harvin and Graham trade.
So, I like to look big picture. The whole thing, and it tells me the right guys are still in charge of our team. The way the team is playing now validates that.
So, if I want to complain, I can find plenty to complain about. I would rather focus on the things we are doing right, while being aware of the things that don't seem right.

So then....what exactly did you expect to read in the "Penny on Special Teams" thread then?

Sounds like a good thread to "complain about the complainers" to me. :34853_doh:

If you want to focus mainly on things we are doing right, there is little room for discussion there huh?

I didn't expect to see anything extreme on the Penny thread. Your view as a complain about complainers thread is your own.
This is not unlike a "Yay Solari" thread that instantly turns into a anti Cable thread.
This is just my perspective.

There is no yay Solari without Cable's futility and incompetence is there? There is very little to discuss in the yah Solari thread without Cable setting the bar so low. The bulk of the appreciation comes from Cable and the damage he did. SO yes....of course it would, and should.

I don't even understand why someone would need to explain all this??

That is just my perspective.

 

[Chapow]

I know those that say wasted pick etc, but we have learned the lack of depth lesson and as of right now we have it, but it can disappear quickly as we have seen the last few years.

So I'm not declaring him a bust by any means, but this argument of depth seems totally tangential to me. That would be a good argument if people were saying we shouldn't have picked up any RB. They aren't though they are making an argument about value of both the RB position and of a 1st round pick. You don't use a 1st on a RB depth pick up, if you go RB there you likely generational talent or close type guy that starts for 5+ years. The reason being a Carson shows up in the 7th or UDFA every year. No one is saying no more RB's just we need to make good value choices at deep position groups. Again maybe Penny still pans out but the argument is about value not just not taking a RB vs. taking one.

Anyone that expects to get a generational talent with the 27th pick probably needs to adjust their expectations a bit. Generational talents generally don't last until the very end of the first round and if they do it's because nobody thought they were going to be a generational talent. 20-25 teams don't pass on a guy if he's thought to be a generational talent (kickers and punters excluded of course).

 

[AgentDib]

If you draft a RB rd 1 who doesn't start, that's a disappointment.

I don't think this makes sense for two reasons.

First, grouping RBs by round is silly. The #32 and #33 overall picks cost around the same draft capital and earn the same money, but the #32 pick gets a potential fifth year of team control which is very valuable at a position like RB where careers are short and backs are focused on a big second contract.

Consider the following three players:
#2 Saquon Barkley ($5.7m cap hit, 2600 draft value points)
#27 Rashaad Penny ($1.9m cap hit, 680 draft value points)
#71 Royce Freeman ($0.75m cap hit, 235 draft value points)

The best option would be to evaluate them separately, but if you just had to throw them into arbitrary groups for some unknown reason it would make much more sense to group Penny in with Freeman (third rounder) then it does with Barkley.

Second, having both Davis and Carson healthy and playing well ahead of Penny has been anything but a disappointment.

Carson is limited in practice again today with a hip injury. If he can't go and Penny gets the start on Sunday then that will be an actual disappointment. As a first round pick the five years of team control means that Penny has time to contribute. Mike Davis is on a one year deal after which he will be a UFA while Penny is under team control through 2022.

 

[kf3339]

Holmgren almost "Never" played rookies because of the learning curve in the NFL. I don't see the issue as we have capable RB's who are getting the job done. Penny can get stronger and learn in practice and on special teams. I also think we will see more of him in the later part of this season when Carson and Davis need more spells. It's a long season.

It will not be the first time a 1st round rookie didn't have a major impact his first year in the PC era. Relax.

 

[chris98251]

I know those that say wasted pick etc, but we have learned the lack of depth lesson and as of right now we have it, but it can disappear quickly as we have seen the last few years.

So I'm not declaring him a bust by any means, but this argument of depth seems totally tangential to me. That would be a good argument if people were saying we shouldn't have picked up any RB. They aren't though they are making an argument about value of both the RB position and of a 1st round pick. You don't use a 1st on a RB depth pick up, if you go RB there you likely generational talent or close type guy that starts for 5+ years. The reason being a Carson shows up in the 7th or UDFA every year. No one is saying no more RB's just we need to make good value choices at deep position groups. Again maybe Penny still pans out but the argument is about value not just not taking a RB vs. taking one.

Carson had a Rawls type injury, when you drafted Penny you didn't know if he was going to come back like he has, Davis was a F.A. you don't know if he is coming back, Prosise need I say more and McKissic is a third down situational back.

It made sense at the time and next year you have Carson / Penny more then likely as your combination.


Or you could go after a guy like Lacy again.

 

[Spin Doctor]

5.4 AND 4.8 YPC IN HIS LAST TWO GAMES PLAYED ON 9 CARRIES. The first 3 games i'm throwing out he was coming off injury the O-line wasn't right and neither was the play calling. Let's not pretend like he hasn't played well in the last 2 games he played because he did the numbers are the numbers.

At Cardinals 9 carries 5.4 ypc
At Raiders 9 carries 4.6 ypc

I think those numbers are a bit deceptive. The line parted the Raiders, and Cardinals lines like the Moses parted the red sea on many of those runs, and they were in garbage time when everyone was worn out. Even though he had okay YPC we must look at how he looked on those runs. Lots of hesitation still, and one of those runs in particular he was brought down with a one arm tackle from behind. The problem with Penny is he turns 10 yard gains into 5 yard gains, and 3 yard gains into losses. In the NFL he hasn't been able to make the first man miss, nor has he been able to power through defenders. People like to point to Alexander, but Alexander was actually deceptively elusive, and very hard to get hands on at the LOS. He could also power through people at the goal line and short yardage if needed. In the NFL you NEED to have the ability to make the first man miss or power through arm tackles or you're not going to make it very far.

Penny also has another issue, he is very hesitant. He identify's creases, and holes too late. The guy is just not a very good running back right now. I'd say we just bench him for the year, or put him on special team duty. He is not ready for the NFL at this point in time. I think he is going to bust, but only time will tell. I think what is clear at the moment is that he has no business being out on the field when Davis, and Carson are tearing it up. As a third down back we've got better options in there as well in McKissic, and Procise(good for about one snap).

Now they we have an opportunity to win something this year, we need to just treat this season as a redshirt year, and I think that is Carroll's thought as well. I think last game showed us that he is in a win now mode, his future now depends on it (Paul Allen's death). More designed QB movements, and read option whereas before they were trying to refine Russ's pocket passing.

 

[toffee]

I know those that say wasted pick etc, but we have learned the lack of depth lesson and as of right now we have it, but it can disappear quickly as we have seen the last few years.

So I'm not declaring him a bust by any means, but this argument of depth seems totally tangential to me. That would be a good argument if people were saying we shouldn't have picked up any RB. They aren't though they are making an argument about value of both the RB position and of a 1st round pick. You don't use a 1st on a RB depth pick up, if you go RB there you likely generational talent or close type guy that starts for 5+ years. The reason being a Carson shows up in the 7th or UDFA every year. No one is saying no more RB's just we need to make good value choices at deep position groups. Again maybe Penny still pans out but the argument is about value not just not taking a RB vs. taking one.

Carson had a Rawls type injury, when you drafted Penny you didn't know if he was going to come back like he has, Davis was a F.A. you don't know if he is coming back, Prosise need I say more and McKissic is a third down situational back.

It made sense at the time and next year you have Carson / Penny more then likely as your combination.


Or you could go after a guy like Lacy again.

This !


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[West TX Hawk]

I know those that say wasted pick etc, but we have learned the lack of depth lesson and as of right now we have it, but it can disappear quickly as we have seen the last few years.

So I'm not declaring him a bust by any means, but this argument of depth seems totally tangential to me. That would be a good argument if people were saying we shouldn't have picked up any RB. They aren't though they are making an argument about value of both the RB position and of a 1st round pick. You don't use a 1st on a RB depth pick up, if you go RB there you likely generational talent or close type guy that starts for 5+ years. The reason being a Carson shows up in the 7th or UDFA every year. No one is saying no more RB's just we need to make good value choices at deep position groups. Again maybe Penny still pans out but the argument is about value not just not taking a RB vs. taking one.

Carson had a Rawls type injury, when you drafted Penny you didn't know if he was going to come back like he has, Davis was a F.A. you don't know if he is coming back, Prosise need I say more and McKissic is a third down situational back.

It made sense at the time and next year you have Carson / Penny more then likely as your combination.


Or you could go after a guy like Lacy again.

Davis re-signed on 3/22 a month before the draft. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattl ... 773432.php (unless you meant he's a FA after this year?)

Carson was nearly ready at the end of last season from the injury so the FO knew we had at minimum 2 productive backs coming into the season. Penny was a terrible pick given all our large holes on the roster, especially pass rush. We started out with the 18th pick and ended up with him--by all analysis a major reach. Of all the great things our FO and co have done, they've been rather disastrous with the top 2 rounds/top 2 selections the last several years-reaches have been the norm. Bottom of the draft very good indeed though, but just think where we might be had we taken a 1st round pass rusher. (Someone rated better than Green)

I'm still seeing contradictory arguments by many here who were quick to discredit Carson coming into this year as just not that great or comparing him to Rawls but bend over backwards to find excuses why our 1st round pick can't get on the field consistently. People are cherry picking Penny's garbage time/ 3rd and long running stats to try to justify the pick. RB is the one position where a rookie is capable of contributing immediately-Carson sure as hell didn't need a year "to adjust to the pro game." And don't give me the Shaun Alexander model sitting behind Warren because Penny doesn’t have anywhere near the burst and agility that Shaun had and showed glimpses of even in the beginning.

At best, Penny is a project and you don't draft projects in the 1st round. Maybe he contributes and gets better-he likely will next year, but sometimes just going BPA is the right choice.

 

[drrew]

Carson is questionable for Sunday.

Knocking the Penny pick when Carson's injury history in college and the NFL is short sighted.

 

[West TX Hawk]

Carson is questionable for Sunday.

Knocking the Penny pick when Carson's injury history in college and the NFL is short sighted.

So you want a backup to Carson in case of injury? Great you draft in the mid rounds-there were plenty. Or you sign a dime a dozen FA RB. Again, you don't waste a 1st round choice on a project or a reach.

 

[chris98251]

I know those that say wasted pick etc, but we have learned the lack of depth lesson and as of right now we have it, but it can disappear quickly as we have seen the last few years.

So I'm not declaring him a bust by any means, but this argument of depth seems totally tangential to me. That would be a good argument if people were saying we shouldn't have picked up any RB. They aren't though they are making an argument about value of both the RB position and of a 1st round pick. You don't use a 1st on a RB depth pick up, if you go RB there you likely generational talent or close type guy that starts for 5+ years. The reason being a Carson shows up in the 7th or UDFA every year. No one is saying no more RB's just we need to make good value choices at deep position groups. Again maybe Penny still pans out but the argument is about value not just not taking a RB vs. taking one.

Carson had a Rawls type injury, when you drafted Penny you didn't know if he was going to come back like he has, Davis was a F.A. you don't know if he is coming back, Prosise need I say more and McKissic is a third down situational back.

It made sense at the time and next year you have Carson / Penny more then likely as your combination.


Or you could go after a guy like Lacy again.

Davis re-signed on 3/22 a month before the draft. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattl ... 773432.php (unless you meant he's a FA after this year?)

Carson was nearly ready at the end of last season from the injury so the FO knew we had at minimum 2 productive backs coming into the season. Penny was a terrible pick given all our large holes on the roster, especially pass rush. We started out with the 18th pick and ended up with him--by all analysis a major reach. Of all the great things our FO and co have done, they've been rather disastrous with the top 2 rounds/top 2 selections the last several years-reaches have been the norm. Bottom of the draft very good indeed though, but just think where we might be had we taken a 1st round pass rusher. (Someone rated better than Green)

I'm still seeing contradictory arguments by many here who were quick to discredit Carson coming into this year as just not that great or comparing him to Rawls but bend over backwards to find excuses why our 1st round pick can't get on the field consistently. People are cherry picking Penny's garbage time/ 3rd and long running stats to try to justify the pick. RB is the one position where a rookie is capable of contributing immediately-Carson sure as hell didn't need a year "to adjust to the pro game." And don't give me the Shaun Alexander model sitting behind Warren because Penny doesn’t have anywhere near the burst and agility that Shaun had and showed glimpses of even in the beginning.

At best, Penny is a project and you don't draft projects in the 1st round. Maybe he contributes and gets better-he likely will next year, but sometimes just going BPA is the right choice.

Rawls was looking good also and on time, then had some set backs andthen a ankle sprain, and then sprianed it again when he did play, however he was not the same guy, he was much more hesitant and lacked confidence it appeared.


You don't know if a back that hurt himself like that is going to come back mentally the same.


I still support the pick, as far as speed Penny is fast, he is a glider with subtle shifts in his cuts.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Carson is questionable for Sunday.

Knocking the Penny pick when Carson's injury history in college and the NFL is short sighted.

People are knocking the Penny pick because this was seen as a deep running back class. We went out and picked Penny with our first round draft choice. Right now Penny is being out performed by Nyheim Hines, Jordan Wilkins, Royce Freeman, Phillip Lindsay, Kerryon Johnson, Nick Chubb, Sony Michel and of course Saquan Barkley. Wilkins, Hines, Freeman, Lindsay, and Freeman were all available in the third round or later.

What I'm saying is, if we wanted depth we could have gotten it elsewhere. There were also a lot of decent veteran running backs available if depth was a concern. I'm just not seeing the logic in drafting a player as flawed as Penny is with a first round draft pick. I get that Carroll wants to recreate the magic he had with Marshawn Lynch, but I just don't think Penny was the guy to do it.

 

[xray]

I'm sure that every Hawks fan wants to see Penny do well. That said ; Carson is questionable for Sunday vs the Chargers. If Carson sits will Penny get the start or Davis? We know that Davis can play ; but we really haven't seen Penny get touch after touch. He has been used as a situational back so far. All of us want to see if he can be a 3 down back. That's what he was drafted to do ; at least we all thought so. There is only one way to end the speculation ; but if he does get the start and and the run game suffers and the Hawks lose then what? The Hawks might have to play an unproven RB for an entire game. Let's hope Carson can go Sunday.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Penny is a solid rookie in a fairly deep backfield. I have no doubt he’ll develop some patience after some Carson mentor ship and experience. It’s pretty rare for rookie RBs to slash defenses.


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[hawkfan68]

Carson is questionable for Sunday.

Knocking the Penny pick when Carson's injury history in college and the NFL is short sighted.

People are knocking the Penny pick because this was seen as a deep running back class. We went out and picked Penny with our first round draft choice. Right now Penny is being out performed by Nyheim Hines, Jordan Wilkins, Royce Freeman, Phillip Lindsay, Kerryon Johnson, Nick Chubb, Sony Michel and of course Saquan Barkley. Wilkins, Hines, Freeman, Lindsay, and Freeman were all available in the third round or later.

What I'm saying is, if we wanted depth we could have gotten it elsewhere. There were also a lot of decent veteran running backs available if depth was a concern. I'm just not seeing the logic in drafting a player as flawed as Penny is with a first round draft pick. I get that Carroll wants to recreate the magic he had with Marshawn Lynch, but I just don't think Penny was the guy to do it.

None of those backs would be playing here much either. They would be behind Carson and Davis too. They are all playing in different offenses too. The reason Penny isn't getting touches is Carson and Davis are playing well and are healthy. It's not a knock on Penny at all. The other backs you mentioned above are playing more because the teams they are on have no other options. Seahawks have plenty of options now, which has been significantly different than the years past. This is a good thing. I think this is a great situation for Penny as he has time to learn and no pressure.