Pete Ball

[TwistedHusky]

Begging the question?

Are you trying to tell me that as a Seahawk fan you believe that Carroll is a good or even competent gameday coach or playcaller?

This is an established weakness. EVEN THE GUYS THAT SUPPORT HIM STILL ACKNOWLEDGE THIS.

Pete has established weaknesses and strengths that go all the way back to USC:

- Picking coordinators
- Gameday playcalling
- Adjusting in-game
- Little attempt at deceiving or even obscuring intent


Are you really, as someone that has ostensibly watched the Seahawks, trying to roll back and dispute characteristics of Pete that were there even when he was putting exceptional successes together and not borderline senile?

Just curious. It becomes pointless to even debate anyone if they literally cannot see what is in front of their face for almost a decade. It makes no sense to debate the finer points if the blatantly obvious, big stuff is just shooting over their head.

 

[hoxrox]

A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"

 

[Fade]

A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"

Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.

 

[toffee]

A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"

Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.

Tartaris played PeteBall and earned ADB's admiration, only QB that Angry thanked after his retirement.

When did Geno played PeteBall? Thought he played some Shaneball, got pulled just when he gotten the hand of it.

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[TwistedHusky]

Every player has strengths and weaknesses.

Your job as a coach is to build a process that allows them to succeed through their strengths and despite their weaknesses.

Leveraging strengths and pairing with other strengths when possible, and minimizing or mitigating weaknesses.

It is not to lament what they cannot do or put a plan in place that 'would work if only their developed X strength or fixed Y weakness.'

You build your plan around what you have, not around what you think would work but do not have.

Pete builds his plan around what worked before. Regardless of whether he is equipped to execute now. That is a fair % of the problem.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Begging the question?

Are you trying to tell me that as a Seahawk fan you believe that Carroll is a good or even competent gameday coach or playcaller?.

Culture building
Organizational building
Competition building

All amazing Pete Carroll coaching traits.........and for a 3-4 year stretch you can add in scheme and personnel/draft mastermind. Identifying the perfect player skill set and mental makeup to fit a defensive scheme that choked the life out of other team's offenses.

But that's where it ends, and it's been a slow decline into what we're seeing now. A coach who either refuses to change or hire the right people around him, or just can't change.

And worse, he isn't even good at the culture, organizational, competition or personnel and drafting anymore either.

Time. To. Go.

 

[hoxrox]

I was super optimistic about Shane Waldron coming over to the Haws and bringing the Rams playbook full of deception, movement, counters, screens, different personnel groupings, etc. with him.

Read this article for some better insight as to why they are not running more of the McVay scheme:

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/11/1 ... s-seahawks

 

[Fade]

A lot of Pete criticism is fair. The main issue is when people conflate Russ Ball with "Pete Ball"

Yeah, it looked totally different when Geno, and Tarvaris started.

Tartaris played PeteBall and earned ADB's admiration, only QB that Angry thanked after his retirement.

When did Geno played PeteBall? Thought he played some Shaneball, got pulled just when he gotten the hand of it.

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Week 1 was Shane ball.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/michaelbumpus5/status/1437192763125026816[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1439256441752276995[/tweet]

Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.

 

[hoxrox]

Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.

Incorrect.

Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.

Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area

Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.

 

[toffee]

A few possibilities, your pick:

1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.





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[Fade]

Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.

Incorrect.

Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.

Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area

Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.

It could be a height thing (which is a factor if there is interior push), or it could be that is where the most turnovers occur in the NFL when passing, and the head coach kind of preaches winning the red line and avoid turnovers at all costs. It would be valid and make some sense if week 1 had not happened.

Explain week 1. (Watch the clip in the Danny Kelly tweet especially.)
Where did this offense go?
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]
Again, Where did this offense go?
[tweet]https://twitter.com/michaelbumpus5/status/1437192763125026816[/tweet]
Everyone with half a football brain saw it.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1439256441752276995[/tweet]

Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

 

[John63]

Pete threw it in the trashcan and went back to doing things his way.

Incorrect.

Two months into the season, that new offense is starting to look a whole lot like the old offenses Seattle ran under Schottenheimer and Wilson’s first offensive coordinator, Darrell Bevell. That’s not necessarily an unexpected development given the quarterback’s skill set. One feature of Wilson’s play style that has really impacted Waldron’s play-calling is his apparent refusal to target the middle of the field at the intermediate levels. It could be a height thing—at 5-foot-11, seeing deep into the middle of the field could be hard for the passer—or maybe Wilson just isn’t comfortable making anticipatory throws into tighter windows. But there is no denying it’s a problem at this point.

Wilson not targeting the middle of the field isn’t a new issue, and Waldron has adjusted to call fewer plays that attack that area. But that’s a problem for an offensive coach who cut his teeth in a system built on those exact concepts. In-breaking routes over the middle helped Jared Goff look like a real-life quarterback in Los Angeles and have turned Matthew Stafford into an MVP candidate—yet they’re nowhere to be found in this version of the McVay offense. Seattle ranks dead last in pass plays that include at least one in-breaking route over the middle of the field this season, according to TruMedia. Wilson has attempted only 28 passes with an in-breaking route, and almost all of those that were aimed at the intermediate area

Waldron’s run game has also had to change to suit his quarterback. This offense is based around outside zone running plays, which are typically most effective when run from under center. But Wilson is at his best in the shotgun, which has forced another departure from the McVay philosophy. In 2020, the Rams ranked 30th in shotgun usage, according to Sports Info Solutions. Through Wilson’s first five starts before the finger injury this season, the Seahawks ranked 16th and had already called more shotgun runs than Los Angeles had in all of last year.

That is great and is one person's opinion if you listen to Holmgren on KJR he says the opposite. He says the problem is players not knowing what to do, and PC still insisting on not taking chances and not throwing over the middle. Which if you read his book is one of his big no-nos on offense. That's the thing you and everyone needs to understand Wilson joined the league and has played under PCs rules straight from his book which is; run, through long, don't throw over the middle too many chances for tips, and TOs, throw outside the numbers, eat clock, and out-execute the other team. Keep it close whim in the 4th. read his book. SO all Wilson has known is that and if you look at it even in the first game for one half we got the new offense then the 2nd half back to PC ball. It's not hard dot understand. PC got a rookie that excelled in what he wanted, could run, throw long, and did not make a lot of mistakes, he has done likely to nothing to let Wilson grow beyond that, Wilson has had to do it despite him. The heat map is great, but there are others that show more passes over the middle. For every opinion, you can find that say Wilson is the problem there are 5 saying the opposite. Here is what I know all these issues you are saying is Wilson is the same issue every QB in the NFL under PC has had. The difference is Wilson is so good he succeeds despite it while the others did not.

 

[Fade]

A few possibilities, your pick:

1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.

Watch this clip:[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

 

[AgentDib]

There remains no evidence whatsoever that Pete did anything to change the offense before the Titans games and plenty of evidence listed elsewhere to the contrary.

This is an established weakness.

You repeating it 1000 times doesn't establish it on the 1001th first. The subset of fans that think our problem is game day coaching, and yes it is a subset, have worn heavily tinted rose colored glasses about the overall strength of our roster for many years now.

Our roster stopped being better then league average by 2017. I'm not going to rehash all of the numerous personnel blunders we have made over the years here but I bet you'd agree with me on most of them. The NFL pulls successful teams downwards and our front office hasn't done nearly enough to counteract that. This year the lack of overall talent has caught up to the team when a couple of their best players have not been able to play up their contract levels.

With a sub-par roster, winning 10, 11 and 12 games the last three years can only be because our coaching has gotten more out of the roster than one should expect. It might not be in the fashion that some would prefer, but we simply were not a 12 win team on paper last season. The nonsense I see repeated around here sometimes about how we should be in the NFCG just because "Russell Wilson is our QB" is eye roll inducing.

This season I think our problem on offense is very up in the air between poor coaching, poor personnel, and poor execution. That's one of the reasons why I think the remainder of these games are extremely important towards deciding what changes need to be made in the off-season.

 

[TwistedHusky]

It could be Pete, it could be Wilson.

Nobody seems to know though we all have our theories.

But again, what makes the most sense?

The best possible outcome and least risk.

You essentially place a bet.

You can bet on Pete, but there is no upside, and little opportunity even if you are right.
Maybe you can even rebuild the team, but you still need a star QB then...good luck finding one.

You can bet on Wilson, the upside is you can still have an effective QB.
You need a coach then but luckily great QBs can make even adequate coaches look good. You still need to rebuild the team but you could do so fairly quickly with the cap room available.


This should literally be an obvious choice.

If you are wrong on Wilson and you keep him?
Well, then you tear it all down, which you were going to have to do anyway.
You lose: 1 - 2 years, maybe 3.

If you are wrong on Pete you keep him?
Then you lose Wilson, you likely have to tear it all down, you probably wasted your cap space on attempts to prop up the team.
You lose: 1 star QB, 2-4 years, and likely some cap space.

 

[John63]

A few possibilities, your pick:

1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.

Watch this clip:[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

Yeah unfortunately their desire to pain Wilson as the issue does not allow logic or fact.

 

[AgentDib]

Except it can also be Waldron and Dickerson and Solari, along with every player on a suspect OL. And bad officiating outcomes, and injuries to key personnel. And it's mostly like Waldron vs. Russ on scheme vs. execution, and then the front office led by Pete and John for the lack of overall roster talent.

Phrasing it as Pete vs. Russ does nothing to simplify a complex situation where the answer could be both or neither. It would be nice if it was just Pete sabotaging Russ at every point because then we'd still have a franchise QB next season, but that seems a lot like wishful thinking to me.

Yeah unfortunately their desire to pain Wilson as the issue does not allow logic or fact.

Truly a critique when it comes from somebody so clearly unbiased as yourself.

 

[AgentDib]

Watch this clip:[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Did you miss Wilson running that exact same play for 17 yards to open up week 3 against the Vikings? But don't let reality get in the way of your desire to push an agenda.

 

[toffee]

A few possibilities, your pick:

1. Pete handcuffed both Waldon and Wilson.
2. Pete let Waldon and Wilson working it out. Waldon couldn't get Russ to do what he wants.

Fire Pete squad firmly believe in 1.
Wilson couldn't read defense squad? 2

Remember the media leaked that Wilson went into a meeting with Pete John and schotty wanting a say in personel and at play calling, then he supposedly stormed out of the meeting.
Timing of the meeting was during the glory days let Russ cook but when let Russ cook experienced strong headwind.

I am of the opinion that Pete is pretty hands off this season.

Watch this clip:[tweet]https://twitter.com/DannyBKelly/status/1438009269501190144[/tweet]

Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) It caught my attention because that is when the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

You sir may have a point there.

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[HD48]

As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.