We only need to tweak the roster to squeeze two more wins

[Sgt. Largent]

Like I said, 10 teams could pick out 2-3 games and injuries this year and say the same thing. The Patriots didn't have their starting or 2nd string QB for 4 and 2 games, and lost their best receiver for most of the year. Yet 14 wins and in the SB, again.

Sorry, but I just don't buy that minor tweaking is going to fix this team long term as the elite 13-14 wins a year team we all think it can be.

Too many major issues going on right now, on and off the field.

Your mean the Patriots team we beat this season at Gillette Stadium . . . on a short week. :2thumbs:

The foundation of the team is very strong. How many teams can say they have every starter back (sans Shead due to the ACL)? There is quite a lot to be excited about on this current roster we have returning. Can they get better at certain positions like offensive tackle, backup guard, backup safeties, etc.? Absolutely, that is what the draft and $30 million in cap space are for.

You just made my points for me, unless the list of improvements you just said you think of as "tweaks." I'd also add DB, D-line, RB health, blocking TE and WR depth.

 

[Siouxhawk]

A couple of tweaks. Getting healthy again. And expected improvement in our offensive line and secondary depth that showed growing pains this year should all come together to make us right again.

 

[StoneCold]

Like I said, 10 teams could pick out 2-3 games and injuries this year and say the same thing. The Patriots didn't have their starting or 2nd string QB for 4 and 2 games, and lost their best receiver for most of the year. Yet 14 wins and in the SB, again.

Sorry, but I just don't buy that minor tweaking is going to fix this team long term as the elite 13-14 wins a year team we all think it can be.

Too many major issues going on right now, on and off the field.

Your mean the Patriots team we beat this season at Gillette Stadium . . . on a short week. :2thumbs:

The foundation of the team is very strong. How many teams can say they have every starter back (sans Shead due to the ACL)? There is quite a lot to be excited about on this current roster we have returning. Can they get better at certain positions like offensive tackle, backup guard, backup safeties, etc.? Absolutely, that is what the draft and $30 million in cap space are for.

We are probably somewhere in between these two trains of thought...

Not as good as we hope and not as bad as we fear. I can agree with that. This team is poised to make a run at the SB for years to come. It's also a few bad decisions and injuries from being 8-8. If they don't improve on the Oline, by either improved play from last years guys or adding through the draft or free agency, trouble. The same can be said about the secondary, the LB's and to a lesser extent (IMHO) the Dline, trouble. But a small improvement in 3 out of 4 of those for next year and only injuries keep us from getting to the playoffs. They are poised because they do have many of the pieces. Poised is just about as good as it gets in the NFL. Patriots are an anomaly, and as much as I hate them you have to tip your hat. But there's also Cleveland on the other end. Thank Pete and JS that were much closer to the Patriots than Cleveland.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Not as good as we hope and not as bad as we fear. I can agree with that. This team is poised to make a run at the SB for years to come. It's also a few bad decisions and injuries from being 8-8. If they don't improve on the Oline, by either improved play from last years guys or adding through the draft or free agency, trouble. The same can be said about the secondary, the LB's and to a lesser extent (IMHO) the Dline, trouble. But a small improvement in 3 out of 4 of those for next year and only injuries keep us from getting to the playoffs. They are poised because they do have many of the pieces. Poised is just about as good as it gets in the NFL. Patriots are an anomaly, and as much as I hate them you have to tip your hat. But there's also Cleveland on the other end. Thank Pete and JS that were much closer to the Patriots than Cleveland.

I guess this is a semantics thing for me then, cause I don't see any of the things most of you guys are suggesting for improvements as "tweaks."

A tweak to me is a minor thing like DB depth, a better backup QB, a 4th WR, a blocking TE, another veteran interior D-lineman for the rotation.

Two new tackles, 1-2 DB's, a safety, LB depth, another D-line starter and an upgrade at our #2 WR spot AND 3-4 players getting healthy and back to 100% are not minor tweaks, those are major improvements that probably all won't happen in one off season.

 

[hawknation2017]

You just made my points for me, unless the list of improvements you just said you think of as "tweaks." I'd also add DB, D-line, RB health, blocking TE and WR depth.

Yes, I view adding that depth as "tweaks" as opposed to a wholesale change in philosophy. Perhaps it is somewhere in the middle because there is no doubt work to be done to add competition to those areas.

I don't view WR depth as one of those areas because only so many players can get the ball, and we already have Doug Baldwin, Tyler Lockett, Jermaine Kearse, Paul Richardson, and Tanner McEvoy. Not to mention Jimmy Graham and C.J. Prosise who demand targets. I mean Richardson could not even see the field much until someone got hurt.

The starting defensive line is one of the strongest in the league with Michael Bennett, Cliff Avril, Jarran Reed, Ahtyba Rubin, Cassius Marsh, and Frank Clark. Quinton Jefferson is an up and comer who could earn a starting role at 3T if he beats out someone. I think it would be wise to add another rusher via the draft - 3T and LEO.

Nick Vannett will presumably grow into the primary blocking TE to complement Jimmy Graham.

 

[Hyak]

Every year is a new challenge and I kind of viewed this season as a transition year given the changes on the OL and no Lynch. Clearly, we also saw regression from Hauschka, the return game while Lockett was limited, the play of Lane, and injuries impacted Wilson, the key RB's, and then Bennett and Thomas.

Honestly, this year's team had a huge break in that the division was non-competitive overall. Of course, this brings up the poor divisional record (3-2-1) as to why they blew a chance at HFA.

Hopefully, the way the season went down resets the organization to recalibrate the goals and fixes the broken pieces inside the locker room and on the field.

I do think there are plenty of signs for improvement from the young guys on the OL and with the RB's coming into the season healthy. It's not unreasonable to expect big jumps from these guys but the question is where the ceilings are for Fant, Ifedi, Obidhamo, etc. When those 5 played as the OL, the Seahawks offense averaged 25.4 points/game with a low of 13 points versus New Orleans (Fant's first start) and a high of 31 (3 times).

Defensively, they clearly need to add to the secondary and LB to increase competition and upgrade depth. They also need to add another consistent pass rusher. In the 2nd half of the season, the numbers really dropped off. If they can ratchet up the pass rush and add another legit CB, I think we can see a big difference especially in the turnovers. In 2012, the D produced 31 takeaways (18 INT). In 2013, 39 takeaways (28 INT). It's steadily dropped since with 23 in 2014 (13 INT), 23 in 2015 (14 INT), and 19 in 2016 (11 INT and none after Thomas went out).

We'll see what happens at the LS and kicker spots but the misses/blocks on short FG's and extra points (2 FG's under 30 yards and 7 extra points) is just ridiculous and probably cost them the 2 Cardinal games and potentially 2 more (2 point wins against Miami and Atlanta).

 

[hawkfan68]

Good topic. The proverbial iceberg that we have watched inching toward us over the last six years has been the failure to draft ANY offensive tackle prospect.

In the last six drafts, the team has essentially avoided drafting from the small pool of players with the requisite skills to succeed at offensive tackle in the NFL. Only 7th Rounder Michael Bowie in 2013 (their fourth and final 7th-round selection in that draft) saw any significant time as an offensive tackle, and even he was another G-RT tweaner better suited for the interior. In fact, zero offensive linemen at all were drafted above the 7th Round in the 2012, 2013, and 2014 drafts.

Plenty of people have been sounding the alarm bells over this problem as the years crept on. It should come as no surprise now that we have two undrafted offensive line conversion projects manning the offensive tackle positions. Yes, I consider Garry Gilliam a conversion project because he only moved from TE his senior season at Penn State. However, not even the most anxious offensive line observer among us could have imagined a power forward protecting Russell Wilson's blindside.

The team clearly had a plan in place to cut the fat from the roster by spending leanly on offensive line veterans. But if that was the plan all along, then they should have made a concerted effort to stock the roster with offensive linemen on rookie deals. Linemen drafted in 2013 and 2014 would have been grisly veterans this season playing on the 3rd and 4th years of rookie contracts.

I think they need to draft a protypical tackle like they have not done since taking Russell Okung with this regime's first selection in 2010. Gilliam should be tendered or re-signed on a cheap deal at the near minimum because they badly need the depth. George Fant needs major work this off-season on his pass blocking technique, working on his footwork, hand placement, drop, punch, etc. But most importantly, they must find a way to draft a true offensive tackle who already has experience at the position. It's a small pool - and clearly not a group they have been very fond of - but they must do it if they hope to make the offensive line competent again.

Are you sure about the bolded statement you made above?

Here's link to draft history (Seahawks) - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/draft.htm

In 2014 draft - they picked Justin Britt in the 2nd round, Terry Poole in the 4th rd, and Garrett Scott in the 6th rd.
2013 draft - no one above 7th round
2012 draft - no one on OL was drafted

Luke Willson is the only draft pick remaining on the roster from the 2013 draft. Wow, that turned out to be a terrible draft for the Seahawks.

 

[hawknation2017]

Good topic. The proverbial iceberg that we have watched inching toward us over the last six years has been the failure to draft ANY offensive tackle prospect.

In the last six drafts, the team has essentially avoided drafting from the small pool of players with the requisite skills to succeed at offensive tackle in the NFL. Only 7th Rounder Michael Bowie in 2013 (their fourth and final 7th-round selection in that draft) saw any significant time as an offensive tackle, and even he was another G-RT tweaner better suited for the interior. In fact, zero offensive linemen at all were drafted above the 7th Round in the 2012 and 2013 drafts.

Plenty of people have been sounding the alarm bells over this problem as the years crept on. It should come as no surprise now that we have two undrafted offensive line conversion projects manning the offensive tackle positions. Yes, I consider Garry Gilliam a conversion project because he only moved from TE his senior season at Penn State. However, not even the most anxious offensive line observer among us could have imagined a power forward protecting Russell Wilson's blindside.

The team clearly had a plan in place to cut the fat from the roster by spending leanly on offensive line veterans. But if that was the plan all along, then they should have made a concerted effort to stock the roster with offensive linemen on rookie deals. Linemen drafted in 2013 and 2014 would have been grisly veterans this season playing on the 3rd and 4th years of rookie contracts.

I think they need to draft a protypical tackle like they have not done since taking Russell Okung with this regime's first selection in 2010. Gilliam should be tendered or re-signed on a cheap deal at the near minimum because they badly need the depth. George Fant needs major work this off-season on his pass blocking technique, working on his footwork, hand placement, drop, punch, etc. But most importantly, they must find a way to draft a true offensive tackle who already has experience at the position. It's a small pool - and clearly not a group they have been very fond of - but they must do it if they hope to make the offensive line competent again.

Are you sure about the bolded statement you made above?

Here's link to draft history (Seahawks) - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/draft.htm

In 2014 draft - they picked Justin Britt in the 2nd round, Terry Poole in the 4th rd, and Garrett Scott in the 6th rd.
2013 draft - no one above 7th round
2012 draft - no one on OL was drafted

Luke Willson is the only draft pick remaining on the roster from the 2013 draft. Wow, that turned out to be a terrible draft for the Seahawks.

Ah, yes, I had my years mixed up. I was thinking of 2012 and 2013. Those were missed opportunities that could have improved the level of talent on the offensive line.

 

[sondevil89]

Will our line get better in '17? Yes. BUT, being the worst rated line in the NFL leaves them no place to go but up. Going with what we have will just be a repeat of the last two years. They need to draft a 1st rounder if a legit one is available and then go find a FA OT.

We are not rebuilding, the future is now!

Smart teams are always rebuilding. We have a very young team. What will really tell the tape is how the team does in the years to come. 3 years from now if we're a 7-9 team that hasn't gone to the playoffs for 2 years, then you can look back and with hindsight see that Pete and John didn't do a good job. But right now? Tear the team apart? Fire the coaches? I don't buy it. I'm not saying there's no chance that some of the doomers aren't right, it's just way to early to write this teams epitaph.

I think you are confusing reloading with rebuilding. Rebuilding is when you just admit you aren't going to be competitive and basically rebuild the biggest parts of your team. Reloading is basically just adding compliments to your core. Two different things.

 

[hawknation2017]

I guess this is a semantics thing for me then, cause I don't see any of the things most of you guys are suggesting for improvements as "tweaks."

A tweak to me is a minor thing like DB depth, a better backup QB, a 4th WR, a blocking TE, another veteran interior D-lineman for the rotation.

Two new tackles, 1-2 DB's, a safety, LB depth, another D-line starter and an upgrade at our #2 WR spot AND 3-4 players getting healthy and back to 100% are not minor tweaks, those are major improvements that probably all won't happen in one off season.

With all of the Seahawks' high-priced players secured already, I view this off-season as very much akin to 2013. A fantastic opportunity to focus on improving depth across several areas, especially the offensive line.

The good news for the offensive line is that everyone is back on the cheap. There are at least five players to start with. Britt, Glowinski, and Ifedi looked very good toward the end of the year. Fant/Gilliam are at least good athletes with starting experience in this system who come cheap. It's just a matter of giving them some competition at OT and adding quality depth via the draft. Either Fant/Gilliam improve or someone better takes their spot.

 

[Hyak]

Here's some real easy stuff to improve on that would help.

1. Reduce the number of dead ball offensive penalties. They had 32 false starts last year.
2. Fix the OPI problem on bubble screens. Kearse alone had more than every other team (6) except the Eagles.
3. Fix the tackling problem. Per PFF (I know), the Hawks defense was 17th in tackling efficiency. That sounds right as guys like Terrell and Lane were pretty bad and even Thomas struggled early on. I don't have the numbers but I am pretty confident that Seattle was at the top in terms of tacking in the 2012-2015 seasons.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I guess this is a semantics thing for me then, cause I don't see any of the things most of you guys are suggesting for improvements as "tweaks."

A tweak to me is a minor thing like DB depth, a better backup QB, a 4th WR, a blocking TE, another veteran interior D-lineman for the rotation.

Two new tackles, 1-2 DB's, a safety, LB depth, another D-line starter and an upgrade at our #2 WR spot AND 3-4 players getting healthy and back to 100% are not minor tweaks, those are major improvements that probably all won't happen in one off season.

With all of the Seahawks' high-priced players secured already, I view this off-season as very much akin to 2013. A fantastic opportunity to focus on improving depth across several areas, especially the offensive line.

The good news for the offensive line is that everyone is back on the cheap. There are at least five players to start with. Britt, Glowinski, and Ifedi looked very good toward the end of the year. Fant/Gilliam are at least good athletes with starting experience in this system who come cheap. It's just a matter of giving them some competition at OT and adding quality depth via the draft. Either Fant/Gilliam improve or someone better takes their spot.

I'm not down with depth, cause I don't think Gilliam or Fant should be starting tackles in the NFL.

Maybe Fant in another year or two when he actually learns the position, but he never should have even seen the field this year. Pete and John drafted horribly the past couple years at the tackle position and gambled with not giving Okung a new contract..............................AND brought in a terrible backup in Webb who was suppose to be the safeguard in case Sowell didn't work out............and none of them worked out.

 

[hawknation2017]

I'm not down with depth, cause I don't think Gilliam or Fant should be starting tackles in the NFL.

Maybe Fant in another year or two when he actually learns the position, but he never should have even seen the field this year. Pete and John drafted horribly the past couple years at the tackle position and gambled with not giving Okung a new contract..............................AND brought in a terrible backup in Webb who was suppose to be the safeguard in case Sowell didn't work out............and none of them worked out.

They are the base level right now. That gives the line the continuity of five players who have already battled together as starters; something we have not had since 2012 or 2013. Either they improve and the line maintains continuity or someone better takes their spot.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm not down with depth, cause I don't think Gilliam or Fant should be starting tackles in the NFL.

Maybe Fant in another year or two when he actually learns the position, but he never should have even seen the field this year. Pete and John drafted horribly the past couple years at the tackle position and gambled with not giving Okung a new contract..............................AND brought in a terrible backup in Webb who was suppose to be the safeguard in case Sowell didn't work out............and none of them worked out.

They are the base level right now. That gives the line the continuity of five players who have already battled together as starters; something we have not had since 2012 or 2013. Either they improve and the line maintains continuity or someone better takes their spot.

Continuity is great if you have the talent, and I'm saying our interior lineman are fine, but our tackles? Nope, both spots need upgrading........and that's virtually impossible in one off season. Every team needs tackles, they're the next most valuable and hard to find position next to QB.

 

[hawknation2017]

I'm not down with depth, cause I don't think Gilliam or Fant should be starting tackles in the NFL.

Maybe Fant in another year or two when he actually learns the position, but he never should have even seen the field this year. Pete and John drafted horribly the past couple years at the tackle position and gambled with not giving Okung a new contract..............................AND brought in a terrible backup in Webb who was suppose to be the safeguard in case Sowell didn't work out............and none of them worked out.

They are the base level right now. That gives the line the continuity of five players who have already battled together as starters; something we have not had since 2012 or 2013. Either they improve and the line maintains continuity or someone better takes their spot.

Continuity is great if you have the talent, and I'm saying our interior lineman are fine, but our tackles? Nope, both spots need upgrading........and that's virtually impossible in one off season. Every team needs tackles, they're the next most valuable and hard to find position next to QB.

I guess I am not discounting the possibility that Fant/Gilliam improve enough to become competent starters. With a year and off-season together, we might start to see them play well enough together as a unit.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm not down with depth, cause I don't think Gilliam or Fant should be starting tackles in the NFL.

Maybe Fant in another year or two when he actually learns the position, but he never should have even seen the field this year. Pete and John drafted horribly the past couple years at the tackle position and gambled with not giving Okung a new contract..............................AND brought in a terrible backup in Webb who was suppose to be the safeguard in case Sowell didn't work out............and none of them worked out.

They are the base level right now. That gives the line the continuity of five players who have already battled together as starters; something we have not had since 2012 or 2013. Either they improve and the line maintains continuity or someone better takes their spot.

Continuity is great if you have the talent, and I'm saying our interior lineman are fine, but our tackles? Nope, both spots need upgrading........and that's virtually impossible in one off season. Every team needs tackles, they're the next most valuable and hard to find position next to QB.

I guess I am not discounting the possibility that Fant/Gilliam improve enough to become competent starters. With a year and off-season together, we might start to see them play well enough together as a unit.

Fant maybe, dude's an insane athlete for his size.

But Gilliam's had what, three years now, and he's still getting benched mid season? That's not a good sign for the tackle you want anchoring the right side for the next 5 years.

 

[Hawks46]

Pete was basically saying the same thing in almost all of his press conferences & interviews after the playoff loss. There will be changes but most of the roster should remain the same including the guys play as OL.

Well, there is a salary cap to contend with, and you do not improve depth by throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Instead of cutting guys, you add to the competition with draft picks. Gilliam, for example, has a couple years of starting experience at RT. He can be re-signed for very little, which maintains the depth. Then you add to it with a couple draft picks capable of playing OT. The best case scenario is that you strike gold with a rookie, experienced at the offensive tackle position, who beats out one of the current starters. In that case, Gilliam provides depth and experience on the cheap. The worst case scenario is still more depth with rookies developing behind the current starters.

Yes, they are going to add to the depth but core positions should remain the same.

Exactly. If one or two guys get beat out through competition that's fine.

Wholesale changes to the line, like we did last year, is what we need to avoid. Communication and familiarity is bred from continuity. These guys have to get used to playing to the guy next to them. If we're constantly churning 2/3 of the OL to try to get more talented players, we're actually degrading the line due to lack of continuity.

Dallas is a good example. They added 1 to 2 pieces at a time, then built off of that. It's not like they drafted 5 dudes and ran with it.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Dallas is a good example. They added 1 to 2 pieces at a time, then built off of that. It's not like they drafted 5 dudes and ran with it.

Martin, 1st Round
Frederick, 1st Round
Smith, 1st Round
Collins, First Round grade but went undrafted because of a shooting incident

WE'RE the team that just keeps slapping 5 guys together and running with it. You wanna prop up Dallas as an example, then start investing draft picks and money on the line.

 

[Largent80]

But I have to say I was extremely disappointed in Odihambo. He looked incompetent on the right side of the line, uncomfortable at guard, and he lacks the length and agility to succeed at offensive tackle. I thought he would at least be better than Alvin Bailey, but his lack of versatility has made him worse. He is one of those backups who will probably be on the bubble to make the roster if they draft sufficiently well.

You do realize that the guy was inactive for multiple games and was only a fill in as a rookie?

Pretty tough to get to all pro level with those circumstances don't ya think?

 

[StoneCold]

Will our line get better in '17? Yes. BUT, being the worst rated line in the NFL leaves them no place to go but up. Going with what we have will just be a repeat of the last two years. They need to draft a 1st rounder if a legit one is available and then go find a FA OT.

We are not rebuilding, the future is now!

Smart teams are always rebuilding. We have a very young team. What will really tell the tape is how the team does in the years to come. 3 years from now if we're a 7-9 team that hasn't gone to the playoffs for 2 years, then you can look back and with hindsight see that Pete and John didn't do a good job. But right now? Tear the team apart? Fire the coaches? I don't buy it. I'm not saying there's no chance that some of the doomers aren't right, it's just way to early to write this teams epitaph.

I think you are confusing reloading with rebuilding. Rebuilding is when you just admit you aren't going to be competitive and basically rebuild the biggest parts of your team. Reloading is basically just adding compliments to your core. Two different things.

Yes was thinking of them as the same. Thanks.