What I got for top 15 WRs for Seattle, with notes

[McGruff]

I will watch some film on Lewis, but athletically he's not big, not fast, not quick, doesn't jump high . . . he has no outstanding qualities, and is exceedingly average to below average across the board. Maybe there is something on tape to tilt the scales, but in general the Seahawks look for something unique athletically, and I just don't see it on paper.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

I will watch some film on Lewis, but athletically he's not big, not fast, not quick, doesn't jump high . . . he has no outstanding qualities, and is exceedingly average to below average across the board. Maybe there is something on tape to tilt the scales, but in general the Seahawks look for something unique athletically, and I just don't see it on paper.

I don't really know much about Lewis. But, this is the first I've heard him evaluated purely by measurables. I will be interested to hear more after you watch him and see if you see what some of the networks evaluaters have been noticing and giving his stock an upward arrow. From all I have time to follow, I was often hearing him mentioned in many top 15 type lists.

Everyone (talking media types here, not us) wants to look like a genius and find the less obvious talent that might get selected higher than projected. Dezmin Lewis in one of those guys in that discussion.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

Could David Johnson be added to the conversation here? The Seahawks do love versatile players.

Shhhhhhh

Scottemojo had mentioned in another thread topic the thought of David Johnson as a receiver. You guys might be onto something there with Johnson. WR's that play like RB's (particularly after the catch.) Golden Tate, Antonio Brown (was a RB at Central Michigan).

 

[Seanhawk]

Is anyone posting in this thread hawksurething? No? Not interested.

 

[McGruff]

I will watch some film on Lewis, but athletically he's not big, not fast, not quick, doesn't jump high . . . he has no outstanding qualities, and is exceedingly average to below average across the board. Maybe there is something on tape to tilt the scales, but in general the Seahawks look for something unique athletically, and I just don't see it on paper.

I don't really know much about Lewis. But, this is the first I've heard him evaluated purely by measurables. I will be interested to hear more after you watch him and see if you see what some of the networks evaluaters have been noticing and giving his stock an upward arrow. From all I have time to follow, I was often hearing him mentioned in many top 15 type lists.

Everyone (talking media types here, not us) wants to look like a genius and find the less obvious talent that might get selected higher than projected. Dezmin Lewis in one of those guys in that discussion.

Part of it is that I am more interested in trying to get into the head of Schneider and Pete than I am in a generic scouting excercise. And one of the things we know about John and Pete is that at the skill positions especially they love athletes, and they especially love speed, agility and RAC ability.

Again, just looking at Sparq scores . . . http://www.fieldgulls.com/nfl-draft/201 ... in/4125461

Current Roster
Lockett - 135.6
Kearse - 131.5
Baldwin - 119.8
Richardson - 118.3
Matthews - 113.9
Norwood - 111.4

Past Draft Picks/Players
Harvin - 129.6
Rice - 119.9
Tate 116.1
Harper - 116.4
Durham - 115.9

An average Seahawks receiver scores about a 121, and none are lower than Norwood's 111.4. Dezmin Lewis scores a 106.6.

Now you or I may not think that is the end all/be all of talent evaluation, but it is apparent that Pete and John do factor it in very heavily. It is not the only thing they look at (Richardson was middle of the pack on Sparq rating and they picked him over more sparq-y athletes) but it does provide boundaries . . . a minimum cut off point if you will. And Lewis seems to fall beneath that cutoff.

 

[McGruff]

Could David Johnson be added to the conversation here? The Seahawks do love versatile players.

Shhhhhhh

Scottemojo had mentioned in another thread topic the thought of David Johnson as a receiver. You guys might be onto something there with Johnson. WR's that play like RB's (particularly after the catch.) Golden Tate, Antonio Brown (was a RB at Central Michigan).

I love Johnson as a WR. Not sure teams are thinking that way with him, but that is what I would do!

 

[McGruff]

Just got done watching one tape of Lewis. I'll see if I can dig up others . . .

[youtube]uuWTBZdmvPw[/youtube]

Here's what I see . . .

Positives . . .
1. Good route runner who excels at getting separation on comebacks
2. Does a great job at high pointing catches and toeing the sideline
3. Solid blocker on the edge
4. Good build up speed to threaten deep
5. Good hands overall

Negatives . . .
1. Slow off the snap, takes a while to reach top speed. Hulking . . . runs like a TE.
2. Doesn't seem to do much after the catch
3. Limited route tree demonstrated, plays better along the sideline than over the middle

 

[McGruff]

One more thing with Lewis and Sparq scores . . . his Pro Day yielded very different results than his combine. His 40 (important for the Seahawks) went from 4.58 to 4.46. Just as importantly, his vertical increased from 33 inches to 37. That's a huge increase, and vertical is important to the Seahawks overall.

It would be interesting to know how the team viewed Pro Day results vs. Combine results.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

One more thing with Lewis and Sparq scores . . . his Pro Day yielded very different results than his combine. His 40 (important for the Seahawks) went from 4.58 to 4.46. Just as importantly, his vertical increased from 33 inches to 37. That's a huge increase, and vertical is important to the Seahawks overall.

It would be interesting to know how the team viewed Pro Day results vs. Combine results.

:th2thumbs:

 

[bbsplitter]

Here is my list . . .

Top three, move around the names, it doesn't matter, we don't have a shot . . .

1. Kevin White, WVU . . . only one year of elite production, but his athletic skils, especially his speed and agility, move his pro potential to the top of the board.

2. Davante Parker, Louisville . . . Again, Cooper produces more consistently than both these guys, but Parker's athletic upside and late season progression gives him the nod. He's a big play threat with excellent high point ability. Knock is that there are durability concerns and he's not a big RAC player.

3. Amari Cooper, Alabama . . . Production, athletic ability, size, consistency. Cooper is probably the safest play in this draft to be a long term, high caliber contributor . . . but his ceiling is lower. He's not a HOF type talent like I see in White and, too a lesser degree, Parker.

Further first rounders who could possibly fall if there are runs at other positiions . . .

4. Jaelen Strong, Arizona St. . . . they say he doesn't separate well, I say their offense didn't showcase that ability because of poor QB play. Strong has size, leaping ability, speed and short area acceleration that is off the charts. He's a hgih point master who will be a panicked QB's best friend. One of my favorites in this draft.

5. Sammie Coates, Auburn . . . This is a projection pick. Coates is at his best doing two things, running straight lines and blocking the heck out of people. He's raw as a route runner and doesn't show the change of direction yet to excel at digs and comebacks, but vertical routes, slants and drags are his forte, and what really makes him tick is raw physicality. Coates remind me a lot of Terrell Owens.

6. Breshad Perriman, UCF . . . Another projection. His game is far from polished as a route runner, and the UCF scheme makes it looks easy with simple reads, so he's got to improve technically and in film work. But he has great athletic ability, sticky hands, and runs better than he should at his size after the catch. Some guys are big and fast, some are small and shifty, Perriman manages to be both. Another favorite of mine, I've been on him since january when most had him as a 4th round pick.

7. Dorial Green-Beckham, Oklahoma/Missouri . . . Every thing you want in a WR is there except experience and attitude. He has the ability to run every route (even though he hasn't done it!), speed, leaping ability, size, hands, body control . . . everything. But there are those off-field issues, and more importantly for Seattle, there are mental lapses and on-field laziness that shows up on tape. He's not a high effort player away from the play, and too often he forgets where he is, where he's supposed to be, how to catch . . . the game is there, but its not there all the time, and that's a major concern.

2nd rounders that could go early, could go late, all depends on which teams love them . . .

8. Devin Smith, Ohio State . . . If you want a pure speed player, a guy to stretch the defense from end zone to end zone and draw safety coverage from the middle of the field, Smith is the guy you want. Like Coates, he's a straightline guy right now, and the team drafting him will have to work with that early, but in a straight line he's got the burst to eat up a cushion fast and the long speed to blow by defenders. As an additional perk, despite being smallist, he's probably one of the best blockers in this class.

9. Phillip Dorsett, Miami . . . Dorsett is a speed guy too, but is better on routes that open up his RAC skills than he is as a pure downfield burner. He's a guy who can take a bubble screen or quick slant and turn it into a monster play. He's guy you can use on jet sweeps and tricks out of the backfield and scare defenses. What he isn't is big, and his hands are occasionally inconsistent. Of this class, he's the guy who most reminds me of Percy.

3rd round and down . . .

10. Tyler Lockett, Kansas St. . . . I really only have him here for return ability, not because he's not a good receiver, but more because he feels redundant to me. He basically is Paul Richardson. Small, thin, wiry, fast, runs good routes, reliable and productive, but his NFL upside is severely limited by his frame.

11. Chris Conley, Georgia . . . Chris Harper, Kris Durham, Chris Conley. Besides sharing the same name they are raw athletic prospects with little production and no technical skills. Conley is a big, fast blank canvas, and coaching and desire will dictate whether he's just another Chris, or a clone of Marques Colston. He shows some good things on tape, enough to tempt, but the sample size is so small that his campus workout with position coaches is going to be the thing that decides his draft stock.

12. Nelson Algholar, USC . . . Honestly I get a JAG vibe from Algholar. He feels to me like AJ Jenkins or Rashaun Woods. A quality college player with no defining skils that will set him apart in the pros. he's a guy who will play out his first contract and then bounce around the league a few years. His upside IMO is Jermaine Kearse.

13. Tre McBride, William and Mary . . . McBride is a solid return man with above average receiving skills. His stock and trade is route running . . . among the best in this class at selling fakes, planting his feet, and bursting out of cuts. But he doesn't show good field speed and doesn't offer much after the catch. He's strictly an over the middle slot type player. He'll move the sticks, but won't scare anyone. Reminds me of Bobby Engram or (gasp!) Doug Baldwin.

14. Kenny Bell, Nebraska . . . A smaller version of McBride, Bell does a lot fo things really well, but nothing so well that a defense has to worry about it. What he adds is the ability to block really well. But his upside is limited by a fairly maxed out frame and an injury history that feels chronic.

15. Darren Waller, Georgia Tech . . . All the athletic ability you want, but like Conley there is nothing on film to base a projection on, and unlike Conley he's actually a weak blocker coming from a high volumn rushing team. But his raw athletic ability will be intriguing to a team like Seattle.

Notable Guys left off the list . . .
Funchess . . . He's not a WR. He's a TE.
Ty Montgomery . . . oh what a glorious return man . . . and what a mess of a WR.

First of all great list and notes. There are a couple of things I see that I disagree with a little though.

You point out that DGB is not a high effort player, and his lack of effort shows on tape, which I absolutely agree with. But I would argue that this applies even more so to Jaelen Strong. He has a bad QB, he knows he has a bad QB, he gives up on his bad QB (and his routes) a lot. I have seen numerous jogged routes from him, only to pull a spectacular catch with his leaping ability. Now this might be fixed with a better QB yes, but the lack of commitment to his routes concern me. To me his 4.4 speed doesn't ever truly show up on tape.

Nelson Agholor is one of my favorite players in the draft. He's from USC, so you know he is gonna get more than a glance from Carroll and CO. Have you seen his combine gauntlet drill? His hands are amazing, and I think that is backed up from the tape I've seen. He has an average height, but room to add a little weight, and average size WR has never stopped JS/PC from drafting anyone. His return skills are also pretty solid.

People always say that Kenny Bell has "great blocking skills", although the only thing I think that would inspire this would be a few spread out killer cut-back blocks. On actual plays where he must square up with a DB, or LB, his technique appears sloppy and is fairly easily muscles out of the way. Having said that, I still like him as a prospect.

 

[Recon_Hawk]

^ I had a couple of Twitter questions of mine asked by Softy on KJR to Daniel Jeremiah and one of them was about WR prospects and he mentioned Dezmin Lewis as a player to keep an eye on. Personally I haven't seen anything on him but seeing your post on him and then DJ talking about him I'll have to give him and Deon Long a look.

I personally really like Dezmin Lewis and put him in the 134 spot in the BR 7rd mock re-do in another post. He has "game speed",good body control and is a hands catcher which are 3 big check marks for me. Not to mention the 6'4" 212lb frame and has played inside and out. Head and shoulders a better prospect than Waller & Connely and I like him way better than McBride who I think plays smaller & slower than his underwear numbers.

I can see the Hawks really liking this kid and trying to target him with the NO pick and a guy like Smelter with a comp pick in the 5/6 range. I'm starting to lean towards targeting a backup LT/G like Donovan Smith and being able to say good-bye to Okung next year and try to come up with a DL player that has some pass rush skill in the 3rd. The beauty of being good is there are sooo many ways to go and they could all work in the end.

Great thoughts.

I got the chance to watch the one game of Lewis and some interviews and highlight videos of him and I think everything you said is pretty spot on. He's got ideal size, not the 6'4 scrawny Sidney Rice type, but muscular throughout. Another thing is he looks flexible for his build. Some guys look stiff in the top of their routes but he's got good bend in his hips.

He has confidence in his hands which I love to see. You don't want big receivers who let the ball get into their body, diminishing their length. Lewis is using his hands for every catch and catching it at it's high point, as well.

He's going against smaller school competition so it's harder to judge how well he'll do against bigger, faster guys, but he flashed on a couple plays that ability to make plays in the red zone, leaping over cornerbacks. He also has a couple plays out running some DBs. I though his speed is exactly what you want out of a big guy. He won't run a fast 10 yard split, but that 4.5 speed is there when he gets going with his long strides.

Would like to see more of his tape, but probably not a lot out there from the draft breakdown guys.

I agree that Seattle should be keeping a close eye on him. I'm not the biggest Waller fan except as a project pick, so I would rank Lewis above him as it stands now. Lewis just look like the more natural receiver with better hands and body control which I think is key for big receivers who can't get a lot of separation.

 

[Recon_Hawk]

Next, I wonder if this guy could be the John Brown of this draft (not necessarily size, etc. - but, that he gets drafted higher than projected by media and us fans.) Anyway, listen to Jason LaCanfora about Deon Long (Maryland). Apparently, a KR, too. http://cbsprt.co/1Fjhtrl There's been some lofty things said about the talent of this guy and it's suggested teams are well aware of him.

Jason LaCanfora wrote a brilliant piece on Deon Long, link below. It might be the best prospect write-up I've ever read. It's got the video you linked to, as well.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jas ... -the-rough

I haven't watched much game tape on him, but he sounds like a great player and great person. Sounds like what you said, the next out-of-nowhere pick in the draft.

 

[kearly]

For what Seattle needs right now, Devin Smith is my #1 WR. Kevin White is a better all around WR, but Smith is the best pure deep threat WR since Mike Wallace, IMO. He has a very rare combination of burner speed and inner calm when tracking the deep ball. He's also one of the better kick returners in the draft. Smith is a splash WR, not an 8 catch-a-game WR, but Seattle is all about hunting splash players and they need a niche deep threat WR and an ace KR.

Smith has got some Angry Doug Baldwin to his personality on the field. Plays with a chip on his shoulder. Talks a lot of shit after beating guys. I suspect he will be extremely high on Seattle's draft board.

I also like Jaelen Strong a lot, but I think he'd be kind of redundant with Jimmy Graham.

I'm not carrying the water for DGB, but I like him as a gamble.

 

[penihawk]

For what Seattle needs right now, Devin Smith is my #1 WR. Kevin White is a better all around WR, but Smith is the best pure deep threat WR since Mike Wallace, IMO. He has a very rare combination of burner speed and inner calm when tracking the deep ball. He's also one of the better kick returners in the draft. Smith is a splash WR, not an 8 catch-a-game WR, but Seattle is all about hunting splash players and they need a niche deep threat WR and an ace KR.

Smith has got some Angry Doug Baldwin to his personality on the field. Plays with a chip on his shoulder. Talks a lot of shit after beating guys. I suspect he will be extremely high on Seattle's draft board.

I also like Jaelen Strong a lot, but I think he'd be kind of redundant with Jimmy Graham.

I'm not carrying the water for DGB, but I like him as a gamble.

I totally agree on Devin Smith. There are faster guys in this draft in shorts and track shoes but I don't know about with a helmet and shoulder pads on and tracks the deep ball better than any other WR I have watched. I think he could develop into a great all around receiver (8 catch-a-game) in time. For know he is a perfect take the top off the defense guy and one of only a couple I would be willing to move up to get. As kearly eluded to in his post he is perfect for Seattle and what we like to do.

 

[McGruff]

For what Seattle needs right now, Devin Smith is my #1 WR. Kevin White is a better all around WR, but Smith is the best pure deep threat WR since Mike Wallace, IMO. He has a very rare combination of burner speed and inner calm when tracking the deep ball. He's also one of the better kick returners in the draft. Smith is a splash WR, not an 8 catch-a-game WR, but Seattle is all about hunting splash players and they need a niche deep threat WR and an ace KR.

Smith has got some Angry Doug Baldwin to his personality on the field. Plays with a chip on his shoulder. Talks a lot of shit after beating guys. I suspect he will be extremely high on Seattle's draft board.

I also like Jaelen Strong a lot, but I think he'd be kind of redundant with Jimmy Graham.

I'm not carrying the water for DGB, but I like him as a gamble.

The attitude comparison between Smith and ADB is spot on. Smith plays with fire and piss. He's angry when he doesn't make a play, and he's angry when he does.

Compare TD plays between him and Dorsett. Dorsett is the classic, hand the ball to the official, and walk away. SMith is jumping into the crowd, head butting teammates, screaming, flexing fiend.

One thing I noticed in re-watching some Smith tape is that while he makes a ton of big plays (bezt deep ball route runner in the class), when asked to run combacks and outs, he's more than able.

He's IMO a bulkier version of Paul Richardson. I like him a lot.

 

[Largent80]

This is an awesome thread guys. Enlightenment is always a good thing...Thanks !!!!

Everyone in the thread gets a free live copy of my avatar.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

As wise as yall are, is there any standouts in the division 2 or division 3 setting of football that they may be looking at? You know they are gonna throw a sideline hit at us during the draft as they always do, so I wonder which one it will be this year. LOL Carry on.

 

[Recon_Hawk]

For what Seattle needs right now, Devin Smith is my #1 WR. Kevin White is a better all around WR, but Smith is the best pure deep threat WR since Mike Wallace, IMO. He has a very rare combination of burner speed and inner calm when tracking the deep ball. He's also one of the better kick returners in the draft. Smith is a splash WR, not an 8 catch-a-game WR, but Seattle is all about hunting splash players and they need a niche deep threat WR and an ace KR.

Smith has got some Angry Doug Baldwin to his personality on the field. Plays with a chip on his shoulder. Talks a lot of shit after beating guys. I suspect he will be extremely high on Seattle's draft board.

I also like Jaelen Strong a lot, but I think he'd be kind of redundant with Jimmy Graham.

I'm not carrying the water for DGB, but I like him as a gamble.

It was hard for me to rank Smith without really knowing how the club views the impact of Richardson's knee injury. I imagine it's serious but is it serious enough to draft his replacement or at least add another niche deep threat?

There's no doubt they need some kind of deep threat without Richardson in the lineup, but assuming Richardson returns to 100% it feels redundant have two similar guys playing the same role the next 3 years.

 

[penihawk]

For what Seattle needs right now, Devin Smith is my #1 WR. Kevin White is a better all around WR, but Smith is the best pure deep threat WR since Mike Wallace, IMO. He has a very rare combination of burner speed and inner calm when tracking the deep ball. He's also one of the better kick returners in the draft. Smith is a splash WR, not an 8 catch-a-game WR, but Seattle is all about hunting splash players and they need a niche deep threat WR and an ace KR.

Smith has got some Angry Doug Baldwin to his personality on the field. Plays with a chip on his shoulder. Talks a lot of shit after beating guys. I suspect he will be extremely high on Seattle's draft board.

I also like Jaelen Strong a lot, but I think he'd be kind of redundant with Jimmy Graham.

I'm not carrying the water for DGB, but I like him as a gamble.

It was hard for me to rank Smith without really knowing how the club views the impact of Richardson's knee injury. I imagine it's serious but is it serious enough to draft his replacement or at least add another niche deep threat?

There's no doubt they need some kind of deep threat without Richardson in the lineup, but assuming Richardson returns to 100% it feels redundant have two similar guys playing the same role the next 3 years.

I think Smith is the player they were hoping Richardson was when it comes to the deep ball. As far as him being ready to play this year and be effective it would be in the 2nd half of the season if at all.

The short and intermediate stuff was where PR really shined before he got hurt and his long was only 32 yds so I'm not really sure how similar they really are. Maybe Smith would assume the Kearse roll if they decide to let him walk after this year?

Smith has return skills even tho he wasn't asked to do it much during his OSU career and is a fantastic gunner on the flip side of the kicking game. Lots to like but I think it's gonna take a move up to get him. So that begs the question, "How much do the Seahawks like him?" Time will tell.

 

[naholmes]

Would Devin Smith be able to step in and contribute early on in the year? We saw with Richardson that he didn't do much until the last 4 games of the season. I'm not expecting any WR at #63 to return immediate results which is why I wouldn't mind them to take on more of a project like Coates or Conley.