ZBS has to go

[original poster]

Yeah I’m no OL technical guy, far from it.

But from my eye test I’d say the problem is the players that fit the scheme, execution and coaching.

There doesn’t seem anything wrong with a ZBS, teams use it successfully. I just think this team with these players and coaching are better suited to a man on man/power game.

 

[Subzero717]

Most if not all teams incorporate zone blocking concepts in their run game.

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[Sox-n-Hawks]

Most if not all teams incorporate zone blocking concepts in their run game.

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Concepts are good, especially with the right personnel and coaching. Yet for some reason... all of these ZBS teams are chasing NE every year. That's not a coincidence. Even this year. #1 total offense? NE. Our wholescale ZBS is a failure. Will be without the right personnel on the field or in the booth. It's EASIER to coach smashmouth football, and harder to predict. We have the right personnel to play a man-man scheme with a few ZBS plays in the book.

The results speak for themselves.

Best run games? 6 of the top ten rushing teams integrate zone blocking in their performance. 2 of which are real contenders for the title. Pitt and NO. NO has Unger under center, hands down the reason the ZBS is working well for them right now. His departure from Seattle and not being replaced with a ZBS or spread offense center combined with the complete inability of Cable to develop an O-line within the Zone Scheme led to where the offense is today.

 

[Subzero717]

^^^^ So, I agree with you 100% on Unger himself. Britt isn't Unger by a long shot and I honestly believe signing him long term to the deal they did was more of a knee jerk reaction than something they believed in deep down. One of many knee jerk reactions. That's another thread.

The next part is New England. New England does almost everything their own way. If we are talking about just running the ball, lets just talk about teams that run the ball. We don't run the same defense as them. Our defense is for all intents and purposes when healthy, better.

Spread and ZBS. Not sure what one has to do with the other. Carroll ran a pro style offense at SC and ZBS. Lots of teams run a "West Coast" of some sort and ZBS. NE probably runs as much of a "spread" look as anyone in the league but from what you stated don't run a ZBS. The Broncos for years took both lineman and RBs off the street and turned them into pro bowlers and 1000 backs year in year out with the proper coaching. Look at New Orleans this year. Two guys with 1500 yards from scrimmage. That's insane.

I think if over half the teams that lead the league use a specific scheme its probably still effective.

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[Sox-n-Hawks]

I want to see David Shaw in as OC and see what some solid power football does.

 

[adeltaY]

Didn't the Mike Shanahan Broncos use ZBS and win two SBs? The Cowboys have been using it for the past few years and had a top rushing attack every year.

 

[hawknation2017]

Saints also use mostly zone blocking. Not to belabor the point, but that is another reason to consider Pete Carmichael as OC. He actually appreciates how to use zone blocking effectively.

Saints' ZBS is the #1 DVOA rushing attack in the NFL.

 

[Subzero717]

I want to see David Shaw in as OC and see what some solid power football does.

He's a HC. Its not going to happen.

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[adeltaY]

Saints also use mostly zone blocking. Not to belabor the point, but that is another reason to consider Pete Carmichael as OC. He actually appreciates how to use zone blocking effectively.

Saints' ZBS is the #1 DVOA rushing attack in the NFL.

The more you share about the guy, the more I want him in Seattle

 

[mrt144]

half the NFL runs ZBS, what are you talking about?

Look up a list of teams that use the ZBS. They tend to be teams that have a flash in the pan success in the beginning and fizzle or HUGE lulls in production as they turn over O-linemen and struggle with injuries. You'll be surprised at how many inept offenses run a ZBS. Unless of course we want to mimic the Browns...

the saints use a ZBS

Yes, and they've been through a rough patch for how many years? Struggling to find a cohesive line, battled the injury bug and had LESS success than Seattle in the last 7 years. If that's the path you want, go for it. Pittsburgh is the same way. So is Baltimore. That's why Belichick is able to pick them apart.

Oh yeah... and never mind Max Unger is the Center that Chip trained to run the system at Oregon.

Their defense was borderline tissue paper too so whatever team success or failure seen isn't solely on the offense. An offense that was in the top 10 of DVOA all but 2 years in the past 10, and both those two times they were 11 and 12 respecitvely.

On the broader subject, I seriously dont give a fig what scheme they use so long as they use it well, which we're obviously not seeing.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Saints also use mostly zone blocking. Not to belabor the point, but that is another reason to consider Pete Carmichael as OC. He actually appreciates how to use zone blocking effectively.

Saints' ZBS is the #1 DVOA rushing attack in the NFL.

The more you share about the guy, the more I want him in Seattle

You do not want him if Unger doesn't come with him. I promise. Unger was the heart and soul of the O-line. There are zero effective ZBS O-linemen on our team. Be like water -Bruce Lee-

 

[hawknation2017]

Saints have been ranked in the Top 10 in DVOA offense every year since 2011.

2011 DVOA offense (#1)
2012 DVOA offense (#6)
2013 DVOA offense (#5)
2014 DVOA offense (#9)
2015 DVOA offense (#5)
2016 DVOA offense (#6)
2017 DVOA offense (#2)

 

[hawknation2017]

zero effective ZBS O-linemen on our team.

Except for Duane Brown, who went to three-consecutive Pro Bowls as a ZBS LT.

Also, Britt has been pretty good as a zone blocker. He was a Pro Bowl alternate last season.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Saints have been ranked in the Top 10 in DVOA offense every year since 2011.

2011 DVOA offense (#1)
2012 DVOA offense (#6)
2013 DVOA offense (#5)
2014 DVOA offense (#9)
2015 DVOA offense (#5)
2016 DVOA offense (#6)
2017 DVOA offense (#2)

And they've played in how many Super Bowls or conference Championships? MOST of this is on Brees.

 

[hawknation2017]

Saints have been ranked in the Top 10 in DVOA offense every year since 2011.

2011 DVOA offense (#1)
2012 DVOA offense (#6)
2013 DVOA offense (#5)
2014 DVOA offense (#9)
2015 DVOA offense (#5)
2016 DVOA offense (#6)
2017 DVOA offense (#2)

And they've played in how many Super Bowls or conference Championships? MOST of this is on Brees.

Because their defense ALWAYS sucks. That has nothing to do with their ZBS.

They are the #1 DVOA running team this year. They were the #3 DVOA running team last year.

Their ZBS is probably the best in football, right now.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Saints have been ranked in the Top 10 in DVOA offense every year since 2011.

2011 DVOA offense (#1)
2012 DVOA offense (#6)
2013 DVOA offense (#5)
2014 DVOA offense (#9)
2015 DVOA offense (#5)
2016 DVOA offense (#6)
2017 DVOA offense (#2)

And they've played in how many Super Bowls or conference Championships? MOST of this is on Brees.

Because their defense ALWAYS sucks. That has nothing to do with their ZBS.

They are the #1 DVOA running team this year. They were the #3 DVOA running team last year.

Also, see original post. Who is their center? Literally the ONLY elite ZBS center. If he goes down, they're 7-9 again. I'll buy you a beer if they make it to the Superbowl.

 

[hawknation2017]

Saints have been ranked in the Top 10 in DVOA offense every year since 2011.

2011 DVOA offense (#1)
2012 DVOA offense (#6)
2013 DVOA offense (#5)
2014 DVOA offense (#9)
2015 DVOA offense (#5)
2016 DVOA offense (#6)
2017 DVOA offense (#2)

And they've played in how many Super Bowls or conference Championships? MOST of this is on Brees.

Because their defense ALWAYS sucks. That has nothing to do with their ZBS.

They are the #1 DVOA running team this year. They were the #3 DVOA running team last year.

Also, see original post. Who is their center? Literally the ONLY elite ZBS center. If he goes down, they're 7-9 again. I'll buy you a beer if they make it to the Superbowl.

I think center is the least of our problems on the OL. Justin Britt has blocked very well over the last two years.

Dallas center Travis Frederick has been to four-consecutive Pro Bowls. Dallas runs ZBS on most of their running plays. They are the #2 DVOA running team this year, even without Ezekiel Elliot for six games.

Most of the best running teams since 2011 have run ZBS.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

And they've played in how many Super Bowls or conference Championships? MOST of this is on Brees.

Because their defense ALWAYS sucks. That has nothing to do with their ZBS.

They are the #1 DVOA running team this year. They were the #3 DVOA running team last year.

Also, see original post. Who is their center? Literally the ONLY elite ZBS center. If he goes down, they're 7-9 again. I'll buy you a beer if they make it to the Superbowl.

I think center is the least of our problems on the OL. Justin Britt has blocked very well over the last two years.

Dallas center Travis Frederick has been to four-consecutive Pro Bowls. Dallas runs ZBS on most of their running plays. They are the #2 DVOA running team this year, even without Ezekiel Elliot for six games.

Most of the best running teams since 2011 have run ZBS.

And since 2011 how many of them have put rings on their fingers?

 

[hawknation2017]

Because their defense ALWAYS sucks. That has nothing to do with their ZBS.

They are the #1 DVOA running team this year. They were the #3 DVOA running team last year.

Also, see original post. Who is their center? Literally the ONLY elite ZBS center. If he goes down, they're 7-9 again. I'll buy you a beer if they make it to the Superbowl.

I think center is the least of our problems on the OL. Justin Britt has blocked very well over the last two years.

Dallas center Travis Frederick has been to four-consecutive Pro Bowls. Dallas runs ZBS on most of their running plays. They are the #2 DVOA running team this year, even without Ezekiel Elliot for six games.

Most of the best running teams since 2011 have run ZBS.

And since 2011 how many of them have put rings on their fingers?

Again, I think that is mostly a defensive problem. Both the Saints and Cowboys have had some really bad defenses over the last few years.

Imagine pairing an incredible defensive coach (Pete Carroll) with a good ZBS play caller (Pete Carmichael). That's a match made in heaven, for me.

I know the Seahawks led the NFL in DVOA rushing and won a Super Bowl in 2013.

 

[Sox-n-Hawks]

Also, see original post. Who is their center? Literally the ONLY elite ZBS center. If he goes down, they're 7-9 again. I'll buy you a beer if they make it to the Superbowl.

I think center is the least of our problems on the OL. Justin Britt has blocked very well over the last two years.

Dallas center Travis Frederick has been to four-consecutive Pro Bowls. Dallas runs ZBS on most of their running plays. They are the #2 DVOA running team this year, even without Ezekiel Elliot for six games.

Most of the best running teams since 2011 have run ZBS.

And since 2011 how many of them have put rings on their fingers?

Again, I think that is mostly a defensive problem. Both the Saints and Cowboys have had some really bad defenses over the last few years.

Imagine pairing an incredible defensive coach (Pete Carroll) with a good ZBS play caller (Pete Carmichael). That's a match made in heaven, for me.

I know the Seahawks led the NFL in DVOA rushing and won a Super Bowl in 2013.

With Okung and Unger. You're continuing to prove that point.