What I would like to see in a first half offense

IndyHawk · Jan 17, 2020

To me it's not hard..
Use our same basic playbook with shorter routes so RW is not standing
there waiting for WR's to get open and getting sacked or wasting energy
running all over to avoid a sack.
The next thought is more creative..
With this limited playbook we have go to a total no huddle but run the
clock down and force that defense to be gassed because they cannot
sub when ball can be snapped anytime.
So we can have Pete Ball and up tempo while resting our defense all at
the same time.

AgentDib · Jan 17, 2020

I appreciate that you are posting some specific ideas for discussion! Much more interesting than vague opinions that have nothing to do with football schemes.

Re: No huddle
I don't think there is much merit to no huddle in the first half with our current personnel. We are the side that knows the play call and so our offense benefits from substituting more than the defense does. It does wear the defense out but because they will still be fresh in the first half then the trade-off seems too steep.

We also don't have the versatile blockers/receivers to really run our full spread of plays out of say 11 personnel (1 RB 1 TE 3 WR). We use a lot of 12 personnel (or even 13 at times with Jumbo TE Fant) to help out the running game.

Shorter routes
This is an interesting conundrum, because Russ throws the best deep ball in the NFL and we also have two elite deep threats in Metcalf and Lockett. I wouldn't want to take that off the table. Deep routes also open up the underneath routes when the DBs are worried about getting beat over the top.

Play action is an excellent way of buying time for longer routes while keeping the opposing pass rush off balance and I expect that to remain the staple of our offense. I don't think we want Russ keeping the ball very often in the regular season if we can help so I wouldn't expect much in the form of RPO. If we make it into the playoffs then that goes back on the table as well.

Another major key is good tight end play. Losing our TEs this season was a big blow and if you look at RW's splits you can definitely notice when Dissly went down. Having a tight end that can run those shorter inside routes you mention, pick up important third downs to keep the chains moving, but also block well is really important for Schottenheimer's offense. When we signed Dickson he was viewed as one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL and it didn't work out due to injury, but I expect we will add at least two more TEs this off-season. Having a really good versatile TE or two also improves the effectiveness of a no huddle offense which chains into your other idea.

Lastly, I think we should keep looking for outside receivers to add that may allow us to move Tyler Lockett back into the slot. That would probably help the quick passing game the most. Robby Anderson of the Jets would be an intriguing option if he's available for a reasonable price.

John63 · Jan 17, 2020

SO the answer is simple

1. We go uptmepo/change tempo. This does not mean no huddle it means, changing the tempo, change when we snap the ball. Right now every defense knows we will snap between 0-5 seconds lef tin the first half. However, in the 2ns they have no clue as it changes. OIN one drive in article we had a snap of as soon as we get to the line, with 10 seconds, left, with 2, with 20 with 5. This is to our benefits as the defense cannot tee off, it gives the oline an advantage that given they are no great at pass blocking we need.

2. we have layered routes, meaning a check down,, short, int and long and rely on Wilson to decide. Now some here seem to think we do that already but that is incorrect. Just in the last game the announcers said there was no check down, there were people is the same place, everyone went long etc. We do this, asit allows us to use aa quick passing attack while also allowing for long passes should Wilson see it there.

These 2 things alone will improve the offense and happens tt be what happens in the 2nd half a lot. Now I know some will say but it only works because of the 1st half. That is incorrect the first drive against Az in the last game was like this, and we scored, then we went back to the normal first half offense which did nothing.

Above all there cannot be us wasting a half of football "testing" the defense, It does not take a half a football, between film and 1 drive you have a good idea what is happening. Nor do we need a half of football to establish the run, that can be done while running th eoffense that works.

justafan · Jan 17, 2020

Better execution. Better blocking.fewer penalties and sacks by the Oline. No pick 6s or fumbles.

Ozzy · Jan 17, 2020

It's not really an execution issue imo. My theory is they are overall a little more conservative with the play calling but the biggest reason is the philosophy bthat Pete beats into the team. Don't turn the ball over, don't take chances, be conservative, gather I formation etc. I think Wilson is ultra conservative and risk averse early in games because it's what Pete wants. Later in games or even hurry up in the first half he takes chances, ie he runs, throws the contested ball etc because they need to score in a hurry and he's not worried/focused on a turnover. So I do think Pete handcuffs the offense at least in the first half of games and for some reason he doesn't seem to see it, it's a blindspot. Even his answer to the question was odd. He said he has no idea and the proceeds to say "you can't win in the first quarter". For it to change Pete is going to have to change but more Importantly realize the cause. I really don't think it's execution and/or play calling, at least not exclusively. But that's my theory and it may be ridiculous....who knows. I like the topic though Indy

cymatica · Jan 17, 2020

The answer is simple. Hire a team hypnotist. Make Pete and Wilson think they are down by a touchdown or two in the 4th quarter. They will proceed to execute the greatest show on turf x 2.

ZagHawk · Jan 17, 2020

Here’s my issue with “better execution”. If the guys on the field can’t execute the scheme and game plan you want, then you need to change your game plan and scheme to something they can execute.

Ozzy · Jan 17, 2020

Another problem with the execution angle is this. Is it more likely that for some strange reason all the players are terrible in first halves and all lights out in the second half of games or is more likely it's a scheme, philosophy issue that gets adapted in second halves? I think the answer is easy. Of course some of it is execution. No player is perfect but the rate these strange take of two halves happens it can't be execution.

SantaClaraHawk · Jan 17, 2020

ZagHawk said:
Here’s my issue with “better execution”. If the guys on the field can’t execute the scheme and game plan you want, then you need to change your game plan and scheme to something they can execute.[/quo

I agree, but I think both Pete and Russ are feeling out what they can execute in the half by "feel," knowing there will be a whole second half to do it.

Like others have said, they do this even when there's little hope, because they often open up more. Hope, that is.

The pass-rush situation, if it is fixed, will be fixed with them hitting on a Diggs-style trade in FA or a royal flush in the draft.

And even then, they aren't in position to let Collier walk for another year. Or give up on Shaquem. Even though he is on ZERO media saying the Hawks are gonna incorporate him into the DE rotation--because who believes that we're gonna reward 49 with that starter spot or backup spot?

I'm just saying, those are two roster spots for next year we're not moving away from, and possibly longer.

cymatica · Jan 17, 2020

AgentDib":1mn2lqow said:
I appreciate that you are posting some specific ideas for discussion! Much more interesting than vague opinions that have nothing to do with football schemes.
.

There's nothing vague about changing tempo(not constantly running the playclock down to 0) and running a quick passing rhythm offense. Just because people don't list specific playcalls doesn't mean they don't have a point regarding the sluggish first half offense. When people say layered routes or quick hitting offense, they are referencing what they see run against Seattle to great success, which Seattle very seldom uses. You can have play action with 10 yard routes, which we barely see. You can have less than 75% of your runs as inside zone with a fake read option look. You can have more 1st and 2nd down plays designed to gain 10+ yards.

Fans shouldnt have to list specific plays, though some do. You are just being condescending and assuming that someone who isn't an Xs and Os master can't see what is obviously wrong with the offense, or the defense. It's kind of like someone driving a car and noticing something wrong with the way it drives. They can tell you the engine is sputtering, but don't know exactly why. They know how it should drive, based on their experience driving different vehicles. Then instead of assisting the person with input as to what the problem is, the mechanic says "well you can't tell me specifically what's wrong so I think you are full of it and the car drives fine".

Tical21 · Jan 18, 2020

Bro, they try so hard to call their core concepts and give easy reads and throws early. They’re open, too. Look at the postings of any tape grinders.

Russell often plays best when he has to play miraculously well. He gets that blood pumpin, that killer edge, he lets it fly. It’s why he plays so well when we are behind and why he has more 4th quarter comebacks than anyone. Often, earlier in games though, he just won’t let it go. For all of his strengths, for some reason he will sometimes stare at his primary read, wide open, against the defense they anticipated, and he won’t throw the ball. It’s the primary reason why I get frustrated with him.

The cure-all for him is when he starts to get involved with his legs. He can be relatively stagnant for a quarter or two, then hit a big 15 yard scramble where he makes a guy miss, and all of a sudden he starts playing more decisively.

Many games he comes out hot and plays well throughout. But when he doesn’t, it’s very rarely the playcalling that is the issue. And when the playcalling is the issue, it is usually from being too aggressive, not too conservative.

We’ve had the same kind of issues for so long, through multiple coordinators, and through a myriad of different schemes designed to get him going early, that it’s obvious you’re fooling yourself if you think Russell’s cautiousness doesn’t play a major role in our inability to start fast in some games.

AgentDib · Jan 18, 2020

cymatica":2dymofdj said:
Fans shouldnt have to list specific plays, though some do. You are just being condescending and assuming that someone who isn't an Xs and Os master can't see what is obviously wrong with the offense, or the defense. It's kind of like someone driving a car and noticing something wrong with the way it drives. They can tell you the engine is sputtering, but don't know exactly why.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion that something isn't working based on feelings, but trying to discuss feelings vs. football strategy is fruitless. I disagree with your feelings for several reasons that boil down to 1) game situation affects play calling and 2) the difference between our first half and second half scoring this year was not statistically significant.

Furthermore, let's say that my feeling is that the "layered route" discussion is complete nonsense. I don't think you would accuse your son's high school coach of poor route combinations without at least one concrete example and the notion that an NFL team just doesn't use them is laughable.

Which of us is correct on this point? Unless you're willing to discuss specific plays it's just arm waving and a shouting competition, which explains why some here parrot the same opinions endlessly in an effort to make them seem more correct. However, at this point our 2019 season is in the books and each play is available on all-22 film. The car engine is in pieces in the shop and we can look at it to see exactly what condition each part is in.

Here are the routes on our first play in the Packers game.

Of course still pictures can't really tell the whole story when it comes to route combinations and separation. On our second passing play (2nd and 10) we are working the left side of the field looking for a short completion to Hollister on the left hash with Lockett intermediate left and then another receiver running a post along the left sideline. Wilson is about to hit Hollister for a short gain but instead pulls the football down because Jamarco Jones was getting pushed back into the throw. The route combinations were not the problem here.

Is it really that condescending to suggest that people who have superior ideas for route concepts should be able to articulate at least one specific example?

Sports Hernia · Jan 18, 2020

ZagHawk":1uli76zx said:
Here’s my issue with “better execution”. If the guys on the field can’t execute the scheme and game plan you want, then you need to change your game plan and scheme to something they can execute.

So much this!
You show me a coach that blames failure strictly on “execution” and I’ll show you a crappy play caller!
It’s called personal responsibility. Coaches need to be held accountable for their mistakes just as much as players are.

xray · Jan 18, 2020

I'd like to see Carroll completely hands-off the offense in the first half ; just to see what happens . It couldn't hurt.

chris98251 · Jan 18, 2020

There is also a problem with Wilson passing on a open guy short looking for a guy deeper to break open for a splash play, we hear it time after time that so and so was open short but Wilson went deep to so and so. Some of it falls on decisions made, Pete ball also is run and explosive plays, the Wilson looking deep and passing up a underneath route is trying to hit on that explosive play, even if it means giving up a underneath gainer.

That's a pick you poison situation, play and complete short or hit a big play or try to since they are harder to do. Really is looking for two in the bush over bird in the hand. Wilson hits on a lot, then you have series after series where they take it away and we see him waiting and hoping and scrambling to hit one.

John63 · Jan 18, 2020

chris98251":19510jao said:
There is also a problem with Wilson passing on a open guy short looking for a guy deeper to break open for a splash play, we hear it time after time that so and so was open short but Wilson went deep to so and so. Some of it falls on decisions made, Pete ball also is run and explosive plays, the Wilson looking deep and passing up a underneath route is trying to hit on that explosive play, even if it means giving up a underneath gainer.

That's a pick you poison situation, play and complete short or hit a big play or try to since they are harder to do. Really is looking for two in the bush over bird in the hand. Wilson hits on a lot, then you have series after series where they take it away and we see him waiting and hoping and scrambling to hit one.

True but he tends not to do that when going uptempo. He tends to do that mostly in the first when running pete ball.

SeAhAwKeR4life · Jan 18, 2020

What you will get, draws, runs up the middle for little or no gain, lots of punting. Till the Caroll era is over anyway.:roll:

Pete gotta have the pro bowl punting game don'tcha know! It's how Pete Ball is played (oh yes, let's not forget burning time outs for no discernable reason, always) :34853_doh:

SeAhAwKeR4life · Jan 18, 2020

Definitely ESSENTIAL that when they have momentum late in a first half that they burn a timeout and kill it. :34853_doh:

justafan · Jan 18, 2020

The question was What I would like to see in the first half. I answered it. I hear that the offense is so simple but then why do we make bonehead mistakes to end drives. IMO the biggest problem is a mediocre Oline,penalties and fumbles.
I agree with agent dib. The easiest thing to say is bad playing calling, often the only way to know is on all 22. Broadcasts dont always show what broke down.

balakoth · Jan 18, 2020

AgentDib":52ocjw5u said:
I appreciate that you are posting some specific ideas for discussion! Much more interesting than vague opinions that have nothing to do with football schemes.

Re: No huddle
I don't think there is much merit to no huddle in the first half with our current personnel. We are the side that knows the play call and so our offense benefits from substituting more than the defense does. It does wear the defense out but because they will still be fresh in the first half then the trade-off seems too steep.

.

I dislike this narrative. Great RUss throws a great deep ball. But, when you repetitively throw it "big play" pass on 3 and..... 7... it gets stale.. it gets easily deciphered by a cover 3 scheme to the defense.

What about sustaining a drive first, using a short passing and seam route system, to then open up better power runs and without running game with Carson an explosive play action deep pass attack gain.

I know its very.... dumb... but... Pete Carroll's Philosophy is literally that of a 13 year old playing Madden on All Pro. Those random big plays happen to work when no one is expecting you to go for 40 yard gains on 3 and 6.... but in the real world.. this is no longer feasible.

Everyone seems excited by 12 and X losses... while not getting to the super bowl and not winning the trophy.

The goal of a football team is not to win one and then be like.. meh lets pick last 5 percent of the draft every year because we "Almost got there"

What I would like to see in a first half offense

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