Underrated play by Geno

[knownone]

Geno's been at that near-elite level for two seasons. Unfortunately, Mael, there is nothing Geno can do—and no analysis to be made—that will change people's minds about him. It is what it is.

 

[pittpnthrs]

If I were geno, I'd want to play somewhere else. Our running game is warm / cold (mostly cold) at best. The O-line cant block consistently, and the defense gives up too many points and provides too few opportunities for the offense. Shane is... I dont know what Shane is, but i think the jury is still out.

He has to play almost perfect football to keep us in games

Sub Geno's name for Russ and it's the exact same thing.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Geno's been at that near-elite level for two seasons. Unfortunately, Mael, there is nothing Geno can do—and no analysis to be made—that will change people's minds about him. It is what it is.

Your wrong. He could start by winning a playoff game at some point.

 

[knownone]

Your wrong. He could start by winning a playoff game at some point.

The statement wasn't literal.

 

[pittpnthrs]

The statement wasn't literal.

It kind of was. Winning a playoff game would change a lot of opinions.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Your wrong. He could start by winning a playoff game at some point.

To be fair, it would be kind of hard for him alone to bridge the gap. He's only had one shot at the postseason here and there really wasn't much he could've done that time around. He didn't play a perfect game, but it felt like he could've played a near perfect game and I still don't think we could've won that one.

The rub is that Geno plays largely structured football. I like that better on the whole compared to the alternative, but he's not one of those Caleb Williams or vintage Russ types. He can win the games, but he isn't gonna do the circus hero act to do it.

I'm happy with his overall performance on a fundamental level and I'm trying to separate it from team performance, because the team performance isn't just bad, it's super inconsistent too. I'd want to see him with a real run game and a less injured line. I can't see a reason that he wouldn't be able to eclipse 2022's performance with a more functional unit around him.

It's frustrating that the organization has failed to seize the opportunities that his unexpected growth and ascendancy have afforded us. All squandered thus far. You don't usually get the gift of a totally random top-10-capable talent at this position.

 

[Fresno Hawk]

He needs to take the next step. It's all about winning. I find it ironic knowing that we are in the same position as last year this time. We need help to get in the playoffs and have the same record with supposedly a better roster. His record this year when starting is 7-8. And one of those wins was a Weatherspoon breakout game. This is why I feel with the money we are paying him we could have another qb starting for us that would give the same amount of wins. With his age I just don't see the upside.

 

[Ozzy]

The Geno hate is just that. I understand the frustration at him not being a highlight reel the way the last guy was, but his play and what he does play in and play out is more often than not very very good.

Fact is, I don't think there's a qb in the league that is performing as well as he is with thr lack of run support that he gets (29 th in the league is it?... 22nd in attempts?) , and suspect protection.

Brock, Wyman, KJ all agree that if Geno had even a decent running game , he'd easily be a top 10 qb. He's just not the type of player who's going to absolutely wow you with uber athleticism. And what he's good at often goes unseen. A good example is that Huard mentioned that the team likely avoided a sackfest Sunday by the way Geno navigated the pocket and got the ball out on time, again and again. If he'd been running around and making heroic throws in the process of avoiding those sacks rather than just threading the needle time and time again, folks would likely feel better about him, and less critical of the strip sack, because he was running for his life all day. But he plays the position the way it's supposed to be played and at a high level and it works against him through the lens of thr e casual observer.

I don't mind your overall argument and there is some validity to it but I seriously doubt those guys have Geno as "easily a top 10 guy" He's averaging about a touchdown a game and that is nowhere near top 10 production regardless of what is going on around him. I think that argument is even a little overstated as he has a better supporting cast overall than average.

I don't think the offense has been bad though, Geno included. I think he's been fine and most of the advanced stats for him and the offense as a whole is fairly decent. I don't think he's anywhere near top 10 but what I will say, and maybe this is what you or the guys listed meant, is he can put up top 10 numbers if you get things right around him.

Just seems like the narrative with Geno almost everyone gets wrong becuase its been framed as an either/or debate and people feel obligated to pick one. He's not bottom 10 and he's not elite. He's an average NFL QB that can play above that if everything is right around him......he's in that 12-17 range which is fine. But its also fine to want someone who's in the top 5 conversation especially considering that's usually what it takes to make the SB.

Edit: I'm trying to be fair here as I personally think he's closer to the 15-20 range but I think the argument against me that he's slightly better is a reasonable take even if I disagree.

 

[keasley45]

Sub Geno's name for Russ and it's the exact same thing.

Russ had a top 10 running game post LOB with the exeption of the year we lost our entire baackfield. And before argument is made that he contributed to that ranking, our RBS consistently put up top 10 to top 5 stats in YPC without him AND post LOB, there were very very few designed running plays for the QB to pad those numbers. So our average on rushing plays was very very good. That is not the case with Geno and with the exception of the firt 7 or 8 games of last year, our rushing attack has been one of our biggest liabilities.


And Russ has shown that bad blocking follows him wherever he goes.

 

[keasley45]

I don't mind your overall argument and there is some validity to it but I seriously doubt those guys have Geno as "easily a top 10 guy" He's averaging about a touchdown a game and that is nowhere near top 10 production regardless of what is going on around him. I think that argument is even a little overstated as he has a better supporting cast overall than average.

I don't think the offense has been bad though, Geno included. I think he's been fine and most of the advanced stats for him and the offense as a whole is fairly decent. I don't think he's anywhere near top 10 but what I will say, and maybe this is what you or the guys listed meant, is he can put up top 10 numbers if you get things right around him.

Just seems like the narrative with Geno almost everyone gets wrong becuase its been framed as an either/or debate and people feel obligated to pick one. He's not bottom 10 and he's not elite. He's an average NFL QB that can play above that if everything is right around him......he's in that 12-17 range which is fine. But its also fine to want someone who's in the top 5 conversation especially considering that's usually what it takes to make the SB.

Edit: I'm trying to be fair here as I personally think he's closer to the 15-20 range but I think the argument against me that he's slightly better is a reasonable take even if I disagree.

Brock actually used the description borderline elite or top 5 QB. Brock is a former NFL QB. Hes been incredibly critical of the Oline, incredibly critical of the rushing attack, and incredibly critical of Waldron. They just dedicated a good part of KJs segment to this topic on the 3rd. Brocks summary - Geno i playng significantly better than some give him credit for and would be significantly better than what hes shown if he had a solid suppoting cast in the areas above.

And i completely disagree that hes just an average qb and above average if everything is great around him. When everything was great around him last year he was top 5 to 10. He didnt 'regress'. Our protection and rusging attack imploded. thats not opinion. Look at his stats before KW went out and Cross and our interior oline play regressed. direct correlation. And he's been playng under those same circumstances pretty much all year.

This year everything around him has been hugely questionable and NOW hes what... 14 to 16? Thats with objectively poor protection, an objectively poor rushing attack (one of the worst in the league), and playcalling throught the year that most everyone outside this board who evaluates it, says is questionable.

So the delta between Geno with all of those things working against him, and Geno with a top 5 to 10 rushing attack, top 12 to 15 protection, and a solid to consistently good playcaller is 4 spots.. from 16 to 12??

Really?

 

[keasley45]

Look at it this way. Here are the worst rushing teams in the league:

Yards

32 Bengals
31 Bucs
30 Raiders
29 Seahawks
28 Jets
27 Vikings
26 Chargers
25 Patriots
24 Commanders
23 Jaguars
22 Texans
21 Saints

Attempts

32 Commanders
31 Jets
30 Bengals
29 Seahawks
28 Vikings
27 Raiders
26 Chiefs
25 Patriots
24 Chargers
23 Bucs
22 Packers
21 Texans

The only QBs in the league doing more with less as measured by QBR are Mahomes (has the benefit of a rushing attack 10 spots better than Seattle's), Herbert (IR'd), and Cousins (8 games). Thats it. And i use QBR because its a more holistic representation of QB play. And by pure rushing yards, no one is doing more with less. NO ONE.

When you factor in Oline play ... at midseason, the Chiefs sported the 5th best O line in the game. The Chargers - 6th, the Bucs 8th, and the Seahawks... 16th. The only team that had a worse o-line rank - the Vikings and again, Cousins has a limited sample size.

The only rankings Ive seen for week 18 are non PFF. Those rankings have the teams referenced above holding pretty steady. Seattle? 27th. TWENTY SEVENTH.

So, by that objective look, do you really want to claim that Geno is just at best average? Hes average right now, extracting better performance out of a team giving him less than anyone else in the league in a similar situation.

Thats not paid publicity. thats not homerism. Thats fact.

 

[keasley45]

And he can set the all-time NFL record for 4th qtr go ahead TDS this week...

Average?

 

[keasley45]

Put it this way.

Going into week 18, Geno sports the 29th ranked rushing attack, the 27th best O-Line (would like to X ref with PFF and others) and has manged to post the 12th best QBR. And unlike the last QB who played here, he actually makes his line look better than they are because of how quickly he distributes the ball.

Better than Tua, Lawrnece, Goff, Stroud and a mile ahead of Russ at 21 (who was handed the 17th best rushing attack by yards and a O line ranked at 16).

And Geno is average?? Excuse me, but how the F does an 'average' QB do that?

Added the F for EmFasis

 

[keasley45]

And to underscore how inexcusably dumb our playcalling has been, Kenneth Walker is an undeniable talent. Last year he was in the running for OROTY. And our running game utilization is 29th in the league? And the few opportunities that do go to the RB, he has to split with Charbs. This is pure, self inlicted stupidity from the OC.

Shane was passing game coordinator in LA. He has shown through two years that he doesnt have the mind or the ability to scheme an affective run game. The o line has struggled. But they struggle more than they probably should because they are constsantly on their heals in pass pro.

But that's what the QB in Seattle has to deal with...

Rushing Attempts:

32 Commanders
31 Jets
30 Bengals
29 Seahawks
28 Vikings
27 Raiders
26 Chiefs
25 Patriots
24 Chargers
23 Bucs
22 Packers
21 Texans

 

[OneLofaTatupu]

I'll admit that I am nowhere near smart enough to realistically criticize his play designs on a macro level. On the contrary, most of what I read from the football minds I trust indicate that he's very bright in that regard. Sure, I can get mad about specific stinkers that seem ill-advised, but you can do that with any coach to ever coach football.

My criticisms usually center around the fact that we never approach a balanced enough offense for me to feel confident that we're doing the best we can with the type of talent we have. It also doesn't feel like there's a trademark identity to the offense, which is something I generally associate with solid coaching because it hints at a deep, deliberate sense of assuredness in a personal philosophy.

Consistently inconsistent. Like a schizophrenic savant

 

[Ozzy]

Brock actually used the description borderline elite or top 5 QB. Brock is a former NFL QB. Hes been incredibly critical of the Oline, incredibly critical of the rushing attack, and incredibly critical of Waldron. They just dedicated a good part of KJs segment to this topic on the 3rd. Brocks summary - Geno i playng significantly better than some give him credit for and would be significantly better than what hes shown if he had a solid suppoting cast in the areas above.

And i completely disagree that hes just an average qb and above average if everything is great around him. When everything was great around him last year he was top 5 to 10. He didnt 'regress'. Our protection and rusging attack imploded. thats not opinion. Look at his stats before KW went out and Cross and our interior oline play regressed. direct correlation. And he's been playng under those same circumstances pretty much all year.

This year everything around him has been hugely questionable and NOW hes what... 14 to 16? Thats with objectively poor protection, an objectively poor rushing attack (one of the worst in the league), and playcalling throught the year that most everyone outside this board who evaluates it, says is questionable.

So the delta between Geno with all of those things working against him, and Geno with a top 5 to 10 rushing attack, top 12 to 15 protection, and a solid to consistently good playcaller is 4 spots.. from 16 to 12??

Really?

He was top 5 for half a season after being in the leage for 10 years. He is now averaging a touchdown a game with a ton of weapons. What happened the second half of last year when he wasn't nearly as good?

Again I think Geno is better than many believe, including myself at times but I seriously doubt Brock puts Geno in the top 5 category as that is ridiculous and literally no one in the country mentions him in that capacity.

I'll just agree to disagree as I don't see him as a top 5 guy. if he was a top 5 guy why did he sign in Seattle for a lesser contract? He could of written his own check if the league saw him as top 5/borderline elite.

I listen to Brock a ton and I have never heard him speak that highly so I'm curious why he changed his tune all of the sudden. Griff who is about as good as anyone at breaking down film is actually supportive of Waldron. But again to be fair I will try to find that episode and listen to it. Brock also calls Wilson elite during his time in Seattle which you have disagreed with in the past so with your reasoning you need to change that opinion

 

[knownone]

It kind of was. Winning a playoff game would change a lot of opinions.

No, my comment wasn't. It's a figure of speech meant to evoke a shared sense of resignation with someone, Mael, who is running into the same wall I've run into for two seasons—trying to have a fair conversation about Geno with people who seemingly have no interest.

 

[knownone]

Geno's closer to the top 10 than average in most aggregate rankings. He's 12th in QBR. 9th in PFF's Baysian and Average Rankings. 8th in Success rate. He's also 14th in Total EPA and Total Passing EPA, which is impressive considering he's missed two games.

Considering the Seahawks have played the 4th toughest schedule in the league, and Geno's played through three injuries, he's been pretty impressive.

Geno's averaging 1.4 TDs/game. And if you're going to round down to one, all but 12 QBs are averaging 1 TD/game.

 

[Ozzy]

Geno's been at that near-elite level for two seasons. Unfortunately, Mael, there is nothing Geno can do—and no analysis to be made—that will change people's minds about him. It is what it is.

I’m still confused how 18 touchdowns is near elite. I know you hate that metric but regardless when looking at everything in totality and not cherry picking a couple that fit the narrative he’s not an elite QB he’s just not. He has some areas he shines in but most guys in the 12-20 range do too, that’s why they’re not in the 20-30 range

Is he underrated? Sure I think that’s a decent argument and a conversation to be had but I could say the same thing. Those claiming he’s elite will not move off of that no matter what Geno does, it is what it is.

 

[pittpnthrs]

To be fair, it would be kind of hard for him alone to bridge the gap. He's only had one shot at the postseason here and there really wasn't much he could've done that time around. He didn't play a perfect game, but it felt like he could've played a near perfect game and I still don't think we could've won that one.

The rub is that Geno plays largely structured football. I like that better on the whole compared to the alternative, but he's not one of those Caleb Williams or vintage Russ types. He can win the games, but he isn't gonna do the circus hero act to do it.

I'm happy with his overall performance on a fundamental level and I'm trying to separate it from team performance, because the team performance isn't just bad, it's super inconsistent too. I'd want to see him with a real run game and a less injured line. I can't see a reason that he wouldn't be able to eclipse 2022's performance with a more functional unit around him.

It's frustrating that the organization has failed to seize the opportunities that his unexpected growth and ascendancy have afforded us. All squandered thus far. You don't usually get the gift of a totally random top-10-capable talent at this position.

Mael, I hear what your preaching. I'm not going to spurn anybody in my response and this is coming from the heart. It's no mystery that you think more of Geno than I do, but i'll be the first to admit that Geno is rarely ever the cause of the losses.

The point I want to make is that almost all the things being said about Geno pertained to Russ too, but people crucified him. Maybe he was held to a higher standard, I don't know. Bottom line is read your last statement a couple times. That's how I felt for years when Wilson was here. Is it truly the QB's thats the issue?