NFL coaches on Wilson, according to Cossell

[lukerguy]

An average QB in this league, is a very good QB (14-18). Slightly would mean around 12. I have him at 8. I don't think this is much of an article unless you believe he's a top 5 QB (as some of you do who refuse to take off your homer glasses). Flacco won a superbowl with a lesser defense, and lesser running game- let's crown him top 5 too?

Wilson is an above average qb, but he's not elite. There are only 4 elite QBs (manning, brady, rodgers, brees). The next tier of about 7 guys are all very close.

This post is about as boneheaded as it gets. He is 5-6 and that's only in question because he doesn't throw it 30-40 times a game racking up empty meaningless yards.

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The Seahawks could have won the SB with 8-10 QBs in the NFL, and that's no joke. The D was so dominate at year, and the running game was good as well.

Calling Wilson the 8th best QB in the world isn't a slight, and we're arguing over his placement of a few spots? Who cares really?

 

[MidwestHawker]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The Seahawks could have won the SB with 8-10 QBs in the NFL, and that's no joke. The D was so dominate at year, and the running game was good as well.

Calling Wilson the 8th best QB in the world isn't a slight, and we're arguing over his placement of a few spots? Who cares really?

^ this.

Russell is very good. There are QBs who are better. He might continue to improve, whereas most in the conversation with him right now won't outside of Luck. The argument for Luck > Wilson isn't nearly as absurd as many Seahawk fans want to believe it is. We would have won this past SB with either QB under center.

(To be clear: yes my location is Indianapolis, but I'm no Colts fan so any defense of Luck isn't coming from that.)

 

[DavidSeven]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The offense without Harvin/O-line was #8 in points, #7 in offensive DVOA, #2 in YPA, #5 Passer Rating. I believe you are the one who is too focused on recent games. This offense moved the ball fine through several points in the season. It was only during the final stretch where things slowed down (BTW, he happened to be playing with a bum shoulder and against a murderers' row of top-10 defenses at this point). Wilson was a legit MVP candidate up through the Monday night Saints game in Week 13.

 

[davidonmi]

I like Cowherd's response. He countered by saying Wilson plays mistake-free against the toughest defenses in the league. Then, after Cosell proceeded with the "coaches will laugh at you comment", Cowherd paused for a second (as if he's thinking WTF?) and then moved on without even acknowledging Cosell's comments. I didn't listen to the rest of it so not sure if they came back to the topic.

It's a shame nobody laughs at all the terrible projections Cosell makes every single year.

Instead it's one great rush to see who can be the biggest sycophant towards him on Twitter.

Every article involving a Cosell quote has to begin with a qualification that he's the greatest human being ever to walk the planet (or something like that...).

I can't work out why anyone cares what Greg Cosell says. He's quite possibly (probably)the most self-aggrandizing and objectionable individual in a profession that is full of them. But with even more questionable judgment than most. I don't get it.

:th2thumbs:

I'm personally not a cossell fan, however the point is he's passing along what executives and coaches think, if he wanted to just state an opinion he would've done it. He has before, that is why I think the sound is worth discussing.
If it was just Cossell saying he thinks Wilson is a "game manager" I wouldn't have posted it. If every time someone said wilson isn't a franchise QB is posted here there would be 50,000 Pete Prisco threads.

 

[hawkfansince76]

IMHO, the Seahawks with Luck, may not have won SB48. Luck throws picks in high profile games. RW does not.
I'm perfectly happy to have RW, above average or not. I'm extremely happy he brought us a Lombardi.
Thankfully, Luck is the Hawks QB only in one of the Whiner fans parallel universe scenarios. (You know, the one where the Whiners have won all 48 SBs)
GO HAWKS!

 

[davidonmi]

IMHO, the Seahawks with Luck, may not have won SB48. Luck throws picks in high profile games. RW does not.
I'm perfectly happy to have RW, above average or not. I'm extremely happy he brought us a Lombardi.
Thankfully, Luck is the Hawks QB only in one of the Whiner fans parallel universe scenarios. (You know, the one where the Whiners have won all 48 SBs)
GO HAWKS!

A lot of people will argue the Seahawks with Luck would've been better, and it's a fair argument.
My counter to that is Luck winning the SB with the Hawks is opinion, Wilson won the SB, that's a fact.

With Luck who knows if we win the SB, it's a fair argument but a silly thing to discuss

 

[lukerguy]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The offense without Harvin/O-line was #8 in points, #7 in offensive DVOA, #2 in YPA, #5 Passer Rating. I believe you are the one who is too focused on recent games. This offense moved the ball fine through several points in the season. It was only during the final stretch where things slowed down (BTW, he happened to be playing with a bum shoulder and against a murderers' row of top-10 defenses at this point). Wilson was a legit MVP candidate up through the Monday night Saints game in Week 13.

That's including the Minnesota game where Harvin set up the 7 point TD on his special teams, and another FG with the 1 handed catch. You take 10 points away (perhaps more because I didn't include the coverages moving away to create openings for others.

If you take 11 points away, we're 12th. Then if you consider the great positions our D and special teams put us in to score on other occasions, I think you can agree that we were slightly above average. We did struggle to move the ball for portions of the year, you can't argue with that.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

That's a lot of 'ifs' just to make half a point. I bet we can do the same with Luck and Indy. There were at least 2 more INT in the playoffs that should have picks "if only".

 

[Russ Willstrong]

FYI we were near tops in explosive plays for the year. RW was at 100 rating most of the season. Our running game was only as productive as the Colts and that is with RW out gaining Luck on the ground.
But yes the latter part of the season saw RW struggle against stifling defenses that would have done the same to Brees and Manning. And despite his record comeback win Luck also struggled for stretches of the season. Guess who put his team in a hole too big to climb out of in the playoffs? You guessed right...It was bad Luck.

 

[DavidSeven]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The offense without Harvin/O-line was #8 in points, #7 in offensive DVOA, #2 in YPA, #5 Passer Rating. I believe you are the one who is too focused on recent games. This offense moved the ball fine through several points in the season. It was only during the final stretch where things slowed down (BTW, he happened to be playing with a bum shoulder and against a murderers' row of top-10 defenses at this point). Wilson was a legit MVP candidate up through the Monday night Saints game in Week 13.

That's including the Minnesota game where Harvin set up the 7 point TD on his special teams, and another FG with the 1 handed catch. You take 10 points away (perhaps more because I didn't include the coverages moving away to create openings for others.

If you take 11 points away, we're 12th. Then if you consider the great positions our D and special teams put us in to score on other occasions, I think you can agree that we were slightly above average. We did struggle to move the ball for portions of the year, you can't argue with that.

I didn't realize Andrew Luck single-handedly manufactured every single point the Colts scored this season. Amazing that Reggie Wayne and T.Y. Hilton didn't make a single play for him this year. I'm sure he didn't benefit from bad officiating at any point this year either.

Every team except Denver struggled to score at various points in the regular season. Denver couldn't move the ball the first time they saw an above-average defense all year (Super Bowl).

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

An average QB in this league, is a very good QB (14-18). Slightly would mean around 12. I have him at 8. I don't think this is much of an article unless you believe he's a top 5 QB (as some of you do who refuse to take off your homer glasses). Flacco won a superbowl with a lesser defense, and lesser running game- let's crown him top 5 too?

Wilson is an above average qb, but he's not elite. There are only 4 elite QBs (manning, brady, rodgers, brees). The next tier of about 7 guys are all very close.

This post is about as boneheaded as it gets. He is 5-6 and that's only in question because he doesn't throw it 30-40 times a game racking up empty meaningless yards.

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The Seahawks could have won the SB with 8-10 QBs in the NFL, and that's no joke. The D was so dominate at year, and the running game was good as well.

Calling Wilson the 8th best QB in the world isn't a slight, and we're arguing over his placement of a few spots? Who cares really?

To be honest I misread the post I thought you had him at 14th not 8th. And by the time I noticed I couldn't edit my post.Though I never namecalled you just your post.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I have no issue with you rating him 8th I think you're wrong but it's just my opinion.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

An average QB in this league, is a very good QB (14-18). Slightly would mean around 12. I have him at 8. I don't think this is much of an article unless you believe he's a top 5 QB (as some of you do who refuse to take off your homer glasses). Flacco won a superbowl with a lesser defense, and lesser running game- let's crown him top 5 too?

Wilson is an above average qb, but he's not elite. There are only 4 elite QBs (manning, brady, rodgers, brees). The next tier of about 7 guys are all very close.

This post is about as boneheaded as it gets. He is 5-6 and that's only in question because he doesn't throw it 30-40 times a game racking up empty meaningless yards.

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The Seahawks could have won the SB with 8-10 QBs in the NFL, and that's no joke. The D was so dominate at year, and the running game was good as well.

Calling Wilson the 8th best QB in the world isn't a slight, and we're arguing over his placement of a few spots? Who cares really?

To be honest I misread the post I thought you had him at 14th not 8th. And by the time I noticed I couldn't edit my post.Though I never namecalled you just your post.

 

[lukerguy]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The offense without Harvin/O-line was #8 in points, #7 in offensive DVOA, #2 in YPA, #5 Passer Rating. I believe you are the one who is too focused on recent games. This offense moved the ball fine through several points in the season. It was only during the final stretch where things slowed down (BTW, he happened to be playing with a bum shoulder and against a murderers' row of top-10 defenses at this point). Wilson was a legit MVP candidate up through the Monday night Saints game in Week 13.

That's including the Minnesota game where Harvin set up the 7 point TD on his special teams, and another FG with the 1 handed catch. You take 10 points away (perhaps more because I didn't include the coverages moving away to create openings for others.

If you take 11 points away, we're 12th. Then if you consider the great positions our D and special teams put us in to score on other occasions, I think you can agree that we were slightly above average. We did struggle to move the ball for portions of the year, you can't argue with that.

I didn't realize Andrew Luck single-handedly manufactured every single point the Colts scored this season. Amazing that Reggie Wayne and T.Y. Hilton didn't make a single play for him this year. I'm sure he didn't benefit from bad officiating at any point this year either.

Every team except Denver struggled to score at various points in the regular season. Denver couldn't move the ball the first time they saw an above-average defense all year (Super Bowl).

I'm not sure where Andrew Luck came in here. I've never brought his name up. My 1st post in the thread was merely that being considered a QB between 5-14 in the NFL is no slight. He is one of the greatest humans playing the game only after 2 years. I fully expect him to be elite at some point, I personally don't have him there yet.

 

[plyka]

I don't doubt that Cosell is telling the truth. There are a lot of coaches and GMs in the league who just don't get it, guys that will likely be out of a job sometime in the next few years. That statement didn't really offend me much.

Saying "we all have a lot of respect for Bill Polian" was definitely pushing it though. Polian is a lot like Cosell actually, keen on X's and O's but clueless about talent evaluation. You would think Polian would have some collateral after all those wins with Indy, yet Manning gets hurt, the franchise tanks for Luck, and the powers that be jump on the chance to dump Polian. Jim Irsay may not be the brightest dude, but even he knew that Polian's talent evaluation issues were eroding the franchise.

As far as Wilson being undervalued, I blame Bevell for constructing an offense that is so easy to game plan and being so slow to adjust when DC's had his number. A lot of plays late in the season were DOA because defenses attacked knowing that Bevell would never counter, and the result is that it made Wilson look bad.

I think there is also some old-school bias too. Any time a player represents a threat to previously established paradigms of what a top player should be, that player is going to be hated by inflexible old school minds who just assume his success is a mirage. Notice that Cosell referenced guys who coached OFFENSES for 25+ years? First off, the 25+ years thing is a dead give-away that they shared his old school biases. Second, he talked to old-school offensive guys. I bet if he talked to DCs in the NFC who've had to defend Wilson the last 2 years, he'd get a very different set of answers. So I do think there is obviously some confirmation bias going on here (Cosell has downplayed Wilson from day one).

I am kind of amazed though how anyone can watch the amazing plays Wilson pulls off, turning sure sacks into 50 yard bombs, and thinks "slightly above average QB." I'm pretty sure Terry Bradshaw, Troy Aikman, and Trent Dilfer weren't annoying defenses with clutch and/or insane playmaking anywhere near as much as Wilson already has.

I really hope Wilson and the team hear about this and use it as bulletin board material in 2014. And 2015... and 2016...

I'm amazed you somehow stuck Aikman and dilfer in the same sentence. Wilson is a great QB, dilfers mediocre ass doesn't belong in the same sentence. At the same time, the three time super bowl winner Aikman is still clearly a superior QB versus Wilson. That's not saying anything bad about Wilson as he is only a second year QB.

Aikman had a run first team, with the best offensive line in history and a top all time RB. His run first team sapped the potential for him to have gaudy numbers. Just like Wilson. But that in no way should take away from Aikman s greatness. It's an insult to put him and dilfer in the same sentence, a bigger insult than any of cosells remarks.

 

[plyka]

This is sorta weird. I'm a HUGE RW fan. My fave player in the NFL. Probably already my favorite Seahawk ever.

But at the same time I think it's ok to acknowledge what is going on around the league, appreciate other players without being a traitor. There's more to the game than pure stats. Usually stats are used to validate what your eyeballs are telling you. Russell has great measures of performance in the stats that indicate effectiveness...ypa, TD:INT, passer rating. He's an amazing player, no two ways about it. To say he's "slightly above average" is ridiculous, which I've already stated.

And it's ok to love on our guys without thinking they have to be the best at their position in the NFL.

No one is saying that stats are EVERYTHING but surely they are something. The problem people are having with luck is that the luck fans do not have any evidence to back up their stance. You say luck is in a worse team. Sure, so is the QB for the browns, it doesn't mean that he is better than Wilson.

This far luck has not show much. Throwing four INTs against a horrible defense like the patriots in the most important game of his career was not a bright spot. If you think luck is better than Wilson it would be nice to have a cogent argument with some facts behind it.

 

[plyka]

Here's a challenge: can anyone still claiming Luck is a better QB than Wilson provide any argument not involving unprovable hypothetical situations (if they reversed teams Luck would have had equal/more success), vague premises (Luck shoulders a greater burden), or appeals to authority (most GMs would still draft Luck higher) to support that claim? After two full seasons there has to be some statistical evidence that Luck is the better quarterback. Right?

So let's see it.

So compare the two with stats alone without any context to anything? That's an awful way to evaluate talent, especially at the QB position.

You should have save yourself the trouble of coming up with a nonsense excuse and just answered: no.

 

[hawkfansince76]

Honestly, I'm too damn lazy to look it up, but has Russ ever thrown 4 picks in a single game? I don't recall it in his Seahawk career. I know for damn sure he never did it in the playoffs during his short career.
GO HAWKS!

 

[DavidSeven]

How about we compare their stats at Wisconsin and Stanford? I mean, would anyone seriously argue that Luck had to "shoulder a bigger load" at Stanford where he had a power-run game and an elite line? Both programs ran a pro-style offense and featured the run heavily. Seems like a fair comparison to me.

Final years:

Wilson @ Wisconsin: 72.8% completion, 10.3 YPA, 33/4 TD/INT, 191.8 rating (NCAA RECORD).
Luck @ Stanford: 71.3% completion, 8.7 YPA, 37/10 TD/INT, 169.7 rating.

Give me your excuses.

 

[plyka]

Down girl... No need to name call.
It's my opinion and you can agree or disagree. The fact of the matter is, for much of the year with Harvin out, the offense struggled to move the ball. You all only remember the most recent game, which the O played wonderfully.

The offense without Harvin/O-line was #8 in points, #7 in offensive DVOA, #2 in YPA, #5 Passer Rating. I believe you are the one who is too focused on recent games. This offense moved the ball fine through several points in the season. It was only during the final stretch where things slowed down (BTW, he happened to be playing with a bum shoulder and against a murderers' row of top-10 defenses at this point). Wilson was a legit MVP candidate up through the Monday night Saints game in Week 13.

That's including the Minnesota game where Harvin set up the 7 point TD on his special teams, and another FG with the 1 handed catch. You take 10 points away (perhaps more because I didn't include the coverages moving away to create openings for others.

If you take 11 points away, we're 12th. Then if you consider the great positions our D and special teams put us in to score on other occasions, I think you can agree that we were slightly above average. We did struggle to move the ball for portions of the year, you can't argue with that.

So what you're saying is that if you could make up stats out if thin air thenYou would make them up to suit your argument. Point conceded by all I'm sure.