Sherman Doubles Down on Moore Argument

[sc85sis]

It's about whether or not Richard Sherman still buys into Pete Carroll's program.

Personally I don't think he does. If that's the case, this is only going to get worse.

FWIW I think he totally buys into Pete Carroll's program, and this (and all the things like it that the Hawks seem to always be dealing with) are simply a consequence OF Pete Carroll's program.

If you never discipline anyone for behavior and are constantly encouraging players to be themselves over time you're gonna end up with players threatening the media, criticizing each other in the media, flipping off their coordinators from the field, getting in fights on the sideline, jumping offsides all the time, trying to get in fights with the other team after games are already over, pretending to take dumps in the endzone, holding out when their teammates get paid, and so on.

It's just basic social dynamics and the downside of an anything-goes coaching style.

TO BE VERY CLEAR I think the Seahawks are still a LONG WAY away from it really mattering too much, but way off into the future if they ever start losing more than they win I think the wheels could fall off pretty quickly. It happens every time with player's coaches, IMO.

(The reverse: when strong disciplinarians start losing, rather than the team imploding more publicly, all the players basically just tune the coach out and stop giving extra effort/trying so hard).

The one problem I have with this reasoning is that you're assuming "anything goes" and that Pete will never punish guys. I think that's an exaggeration on your part.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

I completely get that Sgt. Shouldn't the only thing we care about is the production on the field though?

I mean I'd understand if a player was getting into trouble, or bringing the team down with antics off the field. I completely understand being upset about his antics on it.

This story though is just a non-starter for me, and I'm amazed at how much vitriol towards Sherman there is on here about it.

I'm not.

The majority of football fans treat football like it's the military and expect players to be good little boys and put up with all behavior, no matter how asinine, from coaches, owners, media types, and ultimately, other fans. Take orders, take crap, take abuse, and shut up. Above all, don't step out of line or we'll send you to clean the latrine with a toothbrush (which figuratively translates into online admonishments and lots of football fan outrage culture on Twitter, message boards, and comments sections of ESPN articles).

Personally, I find that sort of thinking to be a real turn-off, but now we're getting into my issues with football fans as a whole, and those don't belong here. However, that's the mentality for many modern football fans.

 

[Popeyejones]

It's about whether or not Richard Sherman still buys into Pete Carroll's program.

Personally I don't think he does. If that's the case, this is only going to get worse.

FWIW I think he totally buys into Pete Carroll's program, and this (and all the things like it that the Hawks seem to always be dealing with) are simply a consequence OF Pete Carroll's program.

If you never discipline anyone for behavior and are constantly encouraging players to be themselves over time you're gonna end up with players threatening the media, criticizing each other in the media, flipping off their coordinators from the field, getting in fights on the sideline, jumping offsides all the time, trying to get in fights with the other team after games are already over, pretending to take dumps in the endzone, holding out when their teammates get paid, and so on.

It's just basic social dynamics and the downside of an anything-goes coaching style.

TO BE VERY CLEAR I think the Seahawks are still a LONG WAY away from it really mattering too much, but way off into the future if they ever start losing more than they win I think the wheels could fall off pretty quickly. It happens every time with player's coaches, IMO.

(The reverse: when strong disciplinarians start losing, rather than the team imploding more publicly, all the players basically just tune the coach out and stop giving extra effort/trying so hard).

The one problem I have with this reasoning is that you're assuming "anything goes" and that Pete will never punish guys. I think that's an exaggeration on your part.

Ehh, I think whenever the examples are flattering almost all Hawks fans commend PC for letting the players "be themselves" and "express themselves" and so on and so forth.

If you want more measured language than "anything goes" or "will never punish" I'm totally fine with that, but if you're objecting to the basic point rather than the phrasing we'll just have to really, really disagree on this one. :2thumbs:

 

[Mojambo]

I like Pete Carroll and I like the way he handles players. I want to keep this philosophy.

That being said, a philosophy which grants players so much freedom requires constant monitoring of the personnel to ensure continued player buy in, because it only takes one guy to bring the whole edifice crashing down. If a player is no long "IN" than they have to be all the way "OUT."

I don't know exactly where Richard Sherman is on the buy-in spectrum right now, but if he's where it looks, it'll be a problem that only ends when he goes away.

 

[Uncle Si]

I like Pete Carroll and I like the way he handles players. I want to keep this philosophy.

That being said, a philosophy which grants players so much freedom requires constant monitoring of the personnel to ensure continued player buy in, because it only takes one guy to bring the whole edifice crashing down. If a player is no long "IN" than they have to be all the way "OUT."

I don't know exactly where Richard Sherman is on the buy-in spectrum right now, but if he's where it looks, it'll be a problem that only ends when he goes away.

For me this is the crux of the Sherman issue. "Buying in" as we understand it is being an independent, confident, dynamic personality and player in PC's squad.

Sherman is still that. The question here is whether his antics are now detracting from the team instead of motivating them. I don't think that will truly be known until the Summer

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ Yep.

FWIW for a player of Sherman's ability I think it takes an incredibly amount to flip that equation, and I don't think he's anywhere close to that. A truly massive decline in play is really the only thing that could make it a real conversation, IMO.

 

[Biscanebay12]

Love the player - but man is he getting annoying to listen to.

"Getting" He has always been annoying, all the way back to when he was scolding the rest of his teammates that tested positive, even though he only got off on a technicality. The dude just needs to SU and play. The more he talks the more of an ass he makes of himself.

 

[Uncle Si]

Love the player - but man is he getting annoying to listen to.

"Getting" He has always been annoying, all the way back to when he was scolding the rest of his teammates that tested positive, even though he only got off on a technicality. The dude just needs to SU and play. The more he talks the more of an ass he makes of himself.

Nah....