Weird how bad players suddenly improve w/ competent coaches

[SoulfishHawk]

Yeah, because Flowers is somehow a good corner. He was brutal.
The point is still a good one about coaching. This team often REFUSES to adjust in game. It's maddening to say the least. I'm not buying that Flowers will all the sudden be a good player because he's not here in Seattle though.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

 

[toffee]

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

I think you nailed it.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[LTH]

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

I would say your probably spot on... maybe some players could learn to over come those technique issues which might have contributed to why Carroll stuck with him so long... maybe Flowers didn't have the mind set... I just don't think its poor coaching to give a player every chance to work out issues like that.. some might disagree... in this case it didn't work out...


LTH

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

I would say your probably spot on... maybe some players could learn to over come those technique issues which might have contributed to why Carroll stuck with him so long... maybe Flowers didn't have the mind set... I just don't think its poor coaching to give a player every chance to work out issues like that.. some might disagree... in this case it didn't work out...


LTH

The poor coaching part is putting a player into a role he's more than likely going to fail at.

A converted safety who had never played CB should have never been thrown into the #1 or #2 CB spot, Flowers should have been a developmental/practice squad player that played backup for at LEAST two years. But Flowers wasn't because of how poorly John and Pete drafted and acquired good CB's.

So he was thrust into a starting role he wasn't equipped to handle, and he deteriorated from there.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Yep.

Flowers is a safety that can tackle well and covers almost as well as a corner (though does not play the ball well like a corner). That has value, and use - you cover TEs and RBs with more teams going to stretched out offenses and passing attacks.

And in the event you guessed wrong and it is a run, he isn't a liability - because he can tackle.

He also limits RAC yards. So short passes stay short passes. That has use too.

But covering the 1 or 2 is stupid. And he does not really have the hips to cover a slot well unless you anticipate short routes where you need to limit RAC.

That our coaches could not figure this out or continued to force him into roles he is not suited is a pretty good indicator that our coaching staff is substandard or stubborn. Maybe both.

 

[LTH]

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

I would say your probably spot on... maybe some players could learn to over come those technique issues which might have contributed to why Carroll stuck with him so long... maybe Flowers didn't have the mind set... I just don't think its poor coaching to give a player every chance to work out issues like that.. some might disagree... in this case it didn't work out...


LTH

The poor coaching part is putting a player into a role he's more than likely going to fail at.

A converted safety who had never played CB should have never been thrown into the #1 or #2 CB spot, Flowers should have been a developmental/practice squad player that played backup for at LEAST two years. But Flowers wasn't because of how poorly John and Pete drafted and acquired good CB's.

So he was thrust into a starting role he wasn't equipped to handle, and he deteriorated from there.

Maybe but what about guys like Sherm... Sherm was a WR

it's kind of one of those hit and miss things... It's not like Flowers didn't have success his first year he looked like he might work out... those big tall CB are hard to find so is it a bad thing to take a chance and try to develop a player that you think might have the potential? I mean I get your point but drafting where the Hawks are drafting from it feels like they have to take chances to be competitive...

Edit: When you take a chance on a 5th round pick and u hit it you look brilliant ... when it doesn't work out you look bad... does that mean that you never take a chance on a player because if your wrong you get second guessed?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

They let Flowers go because he stunk within the schemes Pete and Norton wanted him to play. Very slow hip turns, tentative, poor route recognition and that all contributed to Tre's confidence being broken.

He's also in the last year of his rookie deal, so that also expedited the question, is he worth trying to resign to try to develop at another position or CB role on the team?

Obviously the answer was no.

I would say your probably spot on... maybe some players could learn to over come those technique issues which might have contributed to why Carroll stuck with him so long... maybe Flowers didn't have the mind set... I just don't think its poor coaching to give a player every chance to work out issues like that.. some might disagree... in this case it didn't work out...


LTH

The poor coaching part is putting a player into a role he's more than likely going to fail at.

A converted safety who had never played CB should have never been thrown into the #1 or #2 CB spot, Flowers should have been a developmental/practice squad player that played backup for at LEAST two years. But Flowers wasn't because of how poorly John and Pete drafted and acquired good CB's.

So he was thrust into a starting role he wasn't equipped to handle, and he deteriorated from there.

Maybe but what about guys like Sherm... Sherm was a WR

it's kind of one of those hit and miss things... It's not like Flowers didn't have success his first year he looked like he might work out... those big tall CB are hard to find so is it a bad thing to take a chance and try to develop a player that you think might have the potential? I mean I get your point but drafting where the Hawks are drafting from it feels like they have to take chances to be competitive...

Edit: When you take a chance on a 5th round pick and u hit it you look brilliant ... when it doesn't work out you look bad... does that mean that you never take a chance on a player because if your wrong you get second guessed?

Sherman played an entire season at CB at Stanford. That made a huge difference.

And I don't know Flower's intellectual level, but Sherman's one of the smartest most savvy CB's to ever play the game. Which IMO expedited his development immensely once he got to Seattle.

Didn't hurt he also played with two HOF level safeties, and 2-3 very good CB's on the other side.

 

[jammerhawk]

I'm not certain it can be said that Flowers "suddenly improved". Is he improved, or just playing in a different scheme?

He seemed to be getting worse game upon game here.

Once again this a not very subtle attack on the coaching staff of the Seahawks apparently fell by a 'Pete Hate' continuing agenda.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And on the opposite of that, look at guys like Byron Maxwell. He was damn good here. Didn't do crap after he left. Though he ca$hed in on big contracts. System and coaching matter a lot.
But we saw nothing from Flowers that would make us think he's a good player.

 

[LTH]

And on the opposite of that, look at guys like Byron Maxwell. He was damn good here. Didn't do crap after he left. Though he ca$hed in on big contracts. System and coaching matter a lot.
But we saw nothing from Flowers that would make us think he's a good player.

I'm actually kind of curious what happened ... He had a good rookie year...then just dropped off. Was there a personality conflict or something else going on? it just seems strange to me... Maybe it just is what it is but still seems strange...


LTH

 

[Sgt. Largent]

And on the opposite of that, look at guys like Byron Maxwell. He was damn good here. Didn't do crap after he left. Though he ca$hed in on big contracts. System and coaching matter a lot.
But we saw nothing from Flowers that would make us think he's a good player.

I'm actually kind of curious what happened ... He had a good rookie year...then just dropped off. Was there a personality conflict or something else going on? it just seems strange to me... Maybe it just is what it is but still seems strange...


LTH

I think all the CB's playing on the other side of Sherman benefited greatly from being in one of the greatest defensive backfields of all time.

How could that not elevate your play and hide your flaws when Sherman was taking away half the field, and you had two HOF caliber safeties in their prime making plays all over the secondary.

Guys like Maxwell and Browner also played in a time when you could bully and put your hands on WR's, and not get penalties. I doubt they'd even be in the league now.

 

[jammerhawk]

And on the opposite of that, look at guys like Byron Maxwell. He was damn good here. Didn't do crap after he left. Though he ca$hed in on big contracts. System and coaching matter a lot.
But we saw nothing from Flowers that would make us think he's a good player.

The Flowers hate is strong here.

Flowers did look pretty interesting as a first year player outplaying Griffin but he lost his confidence after that and got regularly beaten like a drum. He seemed unable to adapt to changes and as has been noted played off coverages too much, as he was revealed for not having great recovery speed, and seemingly never turned towards the ball.

The move was likely a positive for him.

 

[Chapow]

I'm not certain it can be said that Flowers "suddenly improved". Is he improved, or just playing in a different scheme?

I'm not certain how anyone can come to any conclusions at all based on a sample size of 14 snaps. Which, by the way, was a tic under 20% of the defensive snaps in that game. Why so few snaps if he was supposedly playing so well?

Also, if he was so great in that Baltimore game, why did he then get 0 snaps the following week?

 

[jammerhawk]

Agreed!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I hope he does well. Just my opinion that he wasn't that good. We all have our opinions. I like the guy, it's nothing personal. I'm just glad he's gone that's all.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Weird how bad players suddenly improve with competent coaching!

Seattle quarterback Geno Smith connected on his first 14 passes in leading the Seahawks to a 17-0 halftime lead over Jacksonville. Smith was 14 of 15 for 137 yards in the first half against the Jaguars. Smith’s 14 straight completions to start a game is the longest streak in the league this season.

And, before anyone says it, yes. 14 plays is enough. :stirthepot:

 

[The Breh]

With the amount of talent we have on the defense and the production we've had as a unit and certain individuals, you're cottamn right it's coaching.
Why is OP being questioned?
14 snaps or not, if he's being utilized better, or in a position to potentially thrive moreso than here, then who does that fall on?
The same dumbass, thick headed multitude of coaches we've been griping about for YEARS now.

 

[Maelstrom787]

With the amount of talent we have on the defense and the production we've had as a unit and certain individuals, you're cottamn right it's coaching.
Why is OP being questioned?
14 snaps or not, if he's being utilized better, or in a position to potentially thrive moreso than here, then who does that fall on?
The same dumbass, thick headed multitude of coaches we've been griping about for YEARS now.

It's a terrible example.

One can dislike the coaching staff and use great examples of inept decisions they've made - Rashaad in the first, the Graham trade, the Harvin trade, the Cowboys playoff game, etc.

Just because we're of a certain opinion doesn't mean we have to debase our own stances with examples that are, at best, grasping for straws.