Wyman on 3-4 vs 4-3 defenses

[ivotuk]

He's partial to the 4-3, but he also played in a 3-4. He said the most important thing is to have personell to fit the scheme, something Seattle did not have. Per Wyman, it's difficult to find good LBs right now, which makes the 4-3 more palatable. And he believes that reading and reacting to gaps is much easier in the 4-3.

Our 4-3 was historically bad, but i put that on Ken Norton. He's a great LB coach, just not a DC. Pete never should have promoted him after his struggles as DC in Oakland.

Other notes from Wyman and Bob:

Per Dave Wyman believes that "reads" can be much cleaner in the 4-3 as opposed to the 3-4

NFC 3-4 and 4-3 is even (16-32)

AFC: 3-4 and 4-3 is even

Top 10 Scoring Defenses: 8 of the Top 10 are a 4-3 defense

Top 10 Defenses in Yards are 4-3 Defense. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 The 3-4 teams are ranked 7, 8, 9, & 10

Again, it's much easier to sign 3 Linebackers than it is to find 4 Linebackers. Especially since the 3-4 Linebacker requires different body types.

Cody Barton was great in a 4-3, but he's not built for the 3-4. As of right now, we have nobody at Linebacker.


One other note, it's easier to load up on defensive talent when you keep picking in the Top 5 or 10 as many times as the Cardinals, Rams, and 49ers have.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Yep. 3-4 depends on you having an exceptional NT and great LBs (2 of which really need to be strong pass rushers).

We didn't have those. We had a good NT, but he is near 83 years old now.
I think we were doing a hybrid 4-3/3-4 thing but even so - the entire success with 3-4 still depends on coming from different angles and having great LBs/passrushers.

We do neither of those things often, so 3-4 wasn't going to work for us.

 

[flv2]

The 2022 Seahawks defense faced 1156 opposing plays. According to footballoutsiders dot com DBs played a total of 5546 snaps, an average of 4.798 DBs per play.

 

[BASF]

The 2022 Seahawks defense faced 1156 opposing plays. According to footballoutsiders dot com DBs played a total of 5546 snaps, an average of 4.798 DBs per play.

When your front seven is struggling to stop people within the first six yards, you need to have the faster smaller guys on the field to catch them as they go by.

 

[Jville]

The following presentation was make a year ago. However, I think it describes the scheme changes last years defense was working toward. As such it provides a useful reference.

 

[Anajimmc]

The following presentation was make a year ago. However, I think it describes the scheme changes last years defense was working toward. As such it provides a useful reference.

Great video.

I came away with two major concerns for the Seahawks. First, it seemed that what we heard about communication on defense was all about fits and gap integrity, which seemed to be a problem that persisted. Second the three defensive linemen are the key to making it work. This is why much of teams draft capital should go to the front 7 with focus on DL.

Dexter from Florida is drawing some interesting comparisons. Based on size, athleticism, and scheme flexibility, he could be a great target.

 

[Jville]

Great video.

I came away with two major concerns for the Seahawks. First, it seemed that what we heard about communication on defense was all about fits and gap integrity, which seemed to be a problem that persisted. Second the three defensive linemen are the key to making it work. This is why much of teams draft capital should go to the front 7 with focus on DL.

Dexter from Florida is drawing some interesting comparisons. Based on size, athleticism, and scheme flexibility, he could be a great target.

The reference to linemen that can play one and a half (1 1/2) gaps caught my ear. Mone just didn't have the quickness to move around a blocker in time to catch a ball carrier cutting over to a second gap. And, Al Woods was the only one with the big arm to swat down ball carriers. The uniqueness of big Al comes from a very small population that isn't easily replaceable.

It will be telling to see what type of linemen they sign and draft in the off season.
Myles Adams might be one indication of raising the bar in pursuit of quickness. The above linked video reinforces the speculation that additions to the Seahawks defensive line may prioritize lateral quickness ahead of/or along with penetration. The requirement would seem to be for linemen with the lateral quickness to support one and a half gap concepts.
..................................................................................................................

Dexter sounds like a applicable fit .........

......... for a 1 1/2 gap scheme >>> "Dexter has the lateral agility and balance to cover two gaps, and Dexter shows some good closing burst when moving down the line in pursuit." Plus >>> "He has the heavy hands and upper-body strength to win with power. Dexter drops his weight and anchors well against the run, holding up at the point of attack and capable of occupying double teams." Credit >>> https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Gervon-Dexter-DL-Florida

Dexter would seem to fit the bill for what Pete Carroll wants for 2023 ... "A Game Wrecker"
...................................................................................................................

I've found the Brandon Staley video in combination with the Karl Scott video to be very helpful companion videos.

 

[chris98251]

The issue with charging schemes is personnel, you need the right speed and body type for that roll in either scheme. LB's are the cornerstone of a 3-4, we were shredded at the midlevel, run on due to no true Impact NT and our edge guys were half ok and half well unremarkable.

It takes a few years to get all the right bodies in place, then you have to be able to learn a system and play together in it for it to flourish. We were what year 1? I see LB's a Thumper Safety that has hands as well, NT as the need to get and in quanitys if we can.

 

[renofox]

From what I'm seeing, 2-gap read/react defenses are no longer in use because they are ineffective against modern offenses.

It seems the Seahawks are trying to incorporate 2-gap concepts anyway - maybe to prove they can do what no one else even bothers trying?

 

[Anajimmc]

First year in San Diego looks a lot like Seattle

 

[Jville]

First year in San Diego looks a lot like Seattle

It certainly does have similarities to what we saw out of year one with Clint Hurtt.

Thanks for posting the video. Nice follow up for the thread.

 

[Sun Tzu]

From what I'm seeing, 2-gap read/react defenses are no longer in use because they are ineffective against modern offenses.

It seems the Seahawks are trying to incorporate 2-gap concepts anyway - maybe to prove they can do what no one else even bothers trying?

This is 100% false. With offenses emphasizing passing attacks, defenses are incorporating 2-gap read and react concepts in order to stop the run with lighter boxes. The idea is to commit fewer defenders to the line of scrimmage with the goal of getting more coverage defenders on the field.

The Athletic has an outstanding article covering modern pass defense by Diante Lee from September 23, 2022. In an ever-changing NFL, what does modern pass defense look like? https://theathletic.com/3592675/2022/09/23/nfl-pass-defense-film-breakdown/

"Philosophy and tactics transcend scheme and structure in sports, and that’s especially true for NFL defenses...Defensively, we’ve spent decades bogged down in the minutiae of 3-4 or 4-3 — which is a conversation about body types, not actual defense — and missed on the bigger picture of how defensive coordinators’ approach and tactics inform everything we see, from the front to the coverage shell to the technique executed on the field."

 

[ivotuk]

Thanks everyone for the great responses.

This is the kind of communication I'd LOVE to see around the rest of the site. It promotes conversation, and provides great information!

I'm a Gervin Dexter fan. He might be even better than another Dexter...as in Manley.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Thanks everyone for the great responses.

This is the kind of communication I'd LOVE to see around the rest of the site. It promotes conversation, and provides great information!

I'm a Gervin Dexter fan. He might be even better than another Dexter...as in Manley.

I go back and forth on Dexter. The height weight and athletic profile look good, so why is the production and PFF grade low?

If Dexter is going early to mid 2nd round, as most have mocked him, I prefer Jaquelin Roy and Keeanu Benton later. I'll be interested to see how these three perform at the combine.

 

[ivotuk]

Maybe Drew Sanders at #20?

Who's this remind you of?

 

[morgulon1]

Yep. 3-4 depends on you having an exceptional NT and great LBs (2 of which really need to be strong pass rushers).

We didn't have those. We had a good NT, but he is near 83 years old now.
I think we were doing a hybrid 4-3/3-4 thing but even so - the entire success with 3-4 still depends on coming from different angles and having great LBs/passrushers.

We do neither of those things often, so 3-4 wasn't going to work for us.

If the Seahawks stay with the 3-4 , it would be another year or two until comes
Together. That's if they get the right guys.

IMHO

 

[Jville]

This is an interesting podcast discussion. It reviews, among other things, various defensive schemes that were deployed during the year. Including the 24 nickle, 33 nickle and 42 nickle. Lots of stats talked about w/ Sports Information Solutions identified as source.

The point is made that, just as last year was Clint Hurtt's first year as defensive coordinator, last year was also Damione Lewis's first year as the primary line coach.

Need to get back to Rugby Tackling.

Reviewing the Tape: Seahawks 2022-23 defensive review (Seattle Overload Podcast) ......... beginning about 11-12 minutes in ........​

 

[Seattle Person]

Matty and Griff do a really good job at explaining X's and O's. The conversation here is pretty interesting. I just want to add my 2 cents.

The scheme was a problem. It was not just about the players. We can use better Dlinemen but it was the fronts and when they were called. The reality is when the Hawks played more Bear fronts and Odd fronts, the defense had a lot more success. Players were more familiar with this and comfortable with it. They need to probably make this their 1st down or obvious run down defense. It allows the Dline and LBs to fire off the ball.

The 2-4-5 alignment was the real culprit. The communication here was off. The execution was off. Players didn't feed off of each other. Especially the Dline and the LBs. They didn't work together. When the offense added in a little wrinkle, things went wrong often. You can still run 2-4-5 but like Matty and Griff have said, I would put the nose tackle to a 1-technique. This allows him to fire off the ball and blow up the center. Al Woods can do that very effectively. Getting Adams back to support the run would be great. If not then getting a safety that can fill the lanes would be crucial. Neal is good in coverage but he can do a better job at tackling and in run support.

It's not as simple as this though. Overall, the defense needs better players better plans, better execution.

 

[Hawkinaz]

When I think of successful 3-4 defenses Pittsburg, New England and NY Giants come to mind. JJ Watt was the model for a prototype 3-4 DE

Of current D coordinators that run a 3-4 the Giants Wink Martindale comes to mind it’s an aggressive attacking style but plays man to man with the CBs which Wouldn’t fit well with the Hawks

Whether the Hawks stay with the 3-4 Sean Desai could be the deciding factor if he leaves or not

 

[Seattle Person]

When I think of successful 3-4 defenses Pittsburg, New England and NY Giants come to mind. JJ Watt was the model for a prototype 3-4 DE

Of current D coordinators that run a 3-4 the Giants Wink Martindale comes to mind it’s an aggressive attacking style but plays man to man with the CBs which Wouldn’t fit well with the Hawks

Whether the Hawks stay with the 3-4 Sean Desai could be the deciding factor if he leaves or not

I think saying 3-4 or 4-3 is a little misleading. Teams don't really play that much base defense anymore. Even the Hawks had elements of 3-4/4-3 but base defense is a pretty small percentage. I think the fronts and run fits have proven to be much more of an issue for the Seahawks.

Sean Desai was pretty influential in putting the Nose Tackle over the guard instead of the center. So changing the technique from a 1T to a more 2i. The purpose is to keep the roaming safety clean and not let the guard climb up to reach your safety. This is fine if you throw this in once in a while but making it a main or base defense is pretty problematic if the offense comes out in weird formations.

What Desai wants to run is closer to the Fangio style of read & react. I think at his core -- Pete wants an attacking style of defense. That's why he has always preferred a 4-3 front with 3-4 principles. At the end of the season, Carroll said he wants the defense to go back to what the Hawks do well. In other words he wants to concentrate on his philosophy or the "Hawks way" and not depend on other philosophies that may or may not work. I think I do prefer if Desai ends up elsewhere. It's not that I think he's bad but differences in defensive philosophies showed its ugly head this season. The Hawks tried to be good at many things instead of perfecting a few things. Let's sharpen the iron this off-season.

I think the Hawks should concentrate on perfecting the Bear fronts and perfecting the 2-4-5. Many teams are running the 2-4-5 well. Find out what works for those teams. I would say they do have an advantage because they are already running this. It is not completely new. They just need to adjust based on the offense. This past season it was a struggle because the team didn't know the 2-4-5 well and they couldn't make adjustments if the offense did something they aren't used to.