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6 DE now on roster - are any even average?

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  • player / sacks / seasons / avg
    Hyder - 18.5 / 5 / 3.7
    Mayowa - 26 / 8 / 3.2
    Green - 7 / 3 / 2.3
    Collier - 3 / 2 / 1.5
    Robinson - 4 / 1 / 4
    Taylor - 0 / 0 / 0

    Total 58.5 / 19 / 3.1

    for comparison/reference: Dunlap 87.5 / 11 / 8

    No disrespect intended to any of the players, but this has to be the saddest depth chart in the NFL for the DE position.

    I'm sure PCJS will sign some actual starting quality DEs this year, just like they have the last couple years.....

    edit: added Dunlap for comparison to an actual starting level DE. Not elite, just starter material.
    Last edited by renofox on Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    renofox
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  • Hyder is easily starting quality. Mayowa is great as a second Leo. Robinson was a rookie last year and Taylor's a great prospect who is coming to camp healthy. Collier is a good rotational piece who was injured his whole rookie year and played decently last year especially inside.

    There's potential in the group and looking at averages without considering their trajectory, development, or most recent level of play doesn't really tell the full story.

    Regardless, tons of FA to go, so we'll see.
    Maelstrom787
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  • I see Hyder as a 5 tech/situational 3 tech in Seattle's D instead of being a pure base end. I see him as being more of reserve interior DLine man or base DE with some size and pass rush skills. He got 8.5 sacks last season. Here is a draft profile:
    https://www.nfl.com/prospects/kerry-hyd ... e54b3870f0

    I don't see the team as being out the running for Dunlap or even Clowney yet as the market for DE's is cooling quickly and those two guys have either age or injury issues. Time will tell.

    This could be a sneaky good acquisition.
    jammerhawk
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  • jammerhawk wrote:I see Hyder as a 5 tech/situational 3 tech in Seattle's D instead of being a pure base end. I see him as being more of reserve interior DLine man or base DE with some size and pass rush skills. He got 8.5 sacks last season. Here is a draft profile:
    https://www.nfl.com/prospects/kerry-hyd ... e54b3870f0

    I don't see the team as being out the running for Dunlap or even Clowney yet as the market for DE's is cooling quickly and those two guys have either age or injury issues. Time will tell.

    This could be a sneaky good acquisition.



    He is a Bennett type of player, provides pass rush from the inside. His breakout year in Detroit he was playing a lot more as a DT.
    sdog1981
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  • Hawks have three positions on the D-Line now:

    NT (0/1-Tech)
    Ford
    Mone
    (Reed)

    DT/Big End (3/4/5-Tech)
    Reed
    Collier
    Green
    Hyder
    Lattimore

    LEO/SAM (7/9-Tech)
    Mayowa
    Robinson
    Taylor
    (Green)

    I'm guessing we'll see another Leo/SAM, possibly two, before the season starts.
    A-Dog
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  • Average?

    I feel pretty good about Hyder and Robinson who flashed as a rookie.

    Collier is a specialist against the run. Mayowa is a specialist against the pass.

    Green has been a disappointment, Taylor hasn't played.
    Fade
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  • A-Dog wrote:Hawks have three positions on the D-Line now:

    NT (0/1-Tech)
    Ford
    Mone
    (Reed)

    DT/Big End (3/4/5-Tech)
    Reed
    Collier
    Green
    Hyder
    Lattimore

    LEO/SAM (7/9-Tech)
    Mayowa
    Robinson
    Taylor
    (Green)

    I'm guessing we'll see another Leo/SAM, possibly two, before the season starts.


    This doesnt make sense. At times the use 3 down lineman with kj down at the line of scrimmage. That is only to allow Bobby and brooks on the field at the same time with 5 dbs. However, they mostly roll with four down lineman. Hyder will be an outside end starting day one guranteed. He will not fill interior wise unless collier and green somehow fail to back up reed, poona and mone. If they decided to use a heavily 34 front we wouldnt need this many 43 defensive ends. Yes they have alot of guys to kick inside, but what are we really talking here...only mayowa, Robinson and taylor on the edge if you believe hyder to be interior.

    Hyder played 43 edge for lions year before last.

    My guess is they are getting ready to move on from one of the guys who have been here a few years. Green? Collier? Reed? Maybe for salary, but reed actually moves inside to out. They would really effect their rotation losing him.

    Ohn and sam is a backer position. Filled by wright. Previously irvin and kendricks.
    jamescasey1124
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  • jamescasey1124 wrote:
    A-Dog wrote:Hawks have three positions on the D-Line now:

    NT (0/1-Tech)
    Ford
    Mone
    (Reed)

    DT/Big End (3/4/5-Tech)
    Reed
    Collier
    Green
    Hyder
    Lattimore

    LEO/SAM (7/9-Tech)
    Mayowa
    Robinson
    Taylor
    (Green)

    I'm guessing we'll see another Leo/SAM, possibly two, before the season starts.


    This doesnt make sense. At times the use 3 down lineman with kj down at the line of scrimmage. That is only to allow Bobby and brooks on the field at the same time with 5 dbs. However, they mostly roll with four down lineman.


    This isn't true - they went with heavy Bear fronts (which is not new for the Seahawks, it was just used a lot more last season) which is more or less a 5-2 with the SS also in the box. I couldn't find the percentage that this front was used but it was a lot.

    https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/news/film-breakdown-understanding-basics-of-seahawks-bear-front

    Image

    While there's no question the addition of defensive end Carlos Dunlap and improving chemistry in the defensive backfield have been catalysts for the rapid turnaround. after being the scapegoat during Seattle's first half struggles, defensive coordinator Ken Norton Jr. also deserves praise for schematic adaptations that have played a role in the much improved play on that side of the ball.

    Most notably, the Seahawks have been deploying "bear" fronts featuring three defensive tackles, two edge rushers, and two off-ball linebackers with increasing frequency. When asked about the adjustment, coach Pete Carroll credited Norton for getting the most out of the team's personnel defensively, including safety Jamal Adams and linebacker Jordyn Brooks.

    "You have seen us adapt to our personnel and we have -we have enough background that we can do a lot of things," Carroll elaborated. "We have been through so much over the years and I think Kenny [Norton] is exhibiting that to you [through] the use of our talent. And Jamal's part of it, Jordyn [Brooks] coming to us as well is part of it. And absolutely it fits, like we have said to you, about Carlos, his work as a nine technique which puts him outside edge on, to the field in our defense, puts him exactly where he can be really most effective."

    How does the "bear" front work? Up front, the Seahawks have a nose tackle in 0-tech alignment head up across from the center. Two other defensive tackles line up in 3-tech or sometimes 4i-alignment either shading the B-gap or the inside shoulder of the opposing tackle. On the outside, two defensive ends/hybrid linebackers are split out wide in 9-alignment and can either rush the quarterback or drop into coverage.

    This season, Poona Ford has primarily played the nose tackle role, while Jarran Reed, L.J. Collier, and Rasheem Green have been seeing most of the snaps at the 3-tech spots and Dunlap or Benson Mayowa has been wide at one of the end spots. K.J. Wright, playing the SAM linebacker role, has normally been at the other wide-9 position off edge.
    A-Dog
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  • jammerhawk wrote:I see Hyder as a 5 tech/situational 3 tech in Seattle's D instead of being a pure base end. I see him as being more of reserve interior DLine man or base DE with some size and pass rush skills. He got 8.5 sacks last season. Here is a draft profile:
    https://www.nfl.com/prospects/kerry-hyd ... e54b3870f0

    I don't see the team as being out the running for Dunlap or even Clowney yet as the market for DE's is cooling quickly and those two guys have either age or injury issues. Time will tell.

    This could be a sneaky good acquisition.


    I’m thinking we are out of the running with those two (potentially not even wanting Clowney) but, I’m good with this DE lineup. Looking forward to seeing Taylor and Robinson develop.
    Elemas
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  • None of those guys would start for more teams that they'd come off the bench for. I'll feel pretty good about it though, if we get Dunlap back. There'd be some solid depth, plus potential upside if Taylor or Robinson get going this year.
    Rat
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  • Average?

    No, these guys are way above average. I'd even call our D line depth "great" at this point. One of the strengths of the team for sure!
    Jerhawk
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  • A-Dog wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    A-Dog wrote:Hawks have three positions on the D-Line now:

    NT (0/1-Tech)
    Ford
    Mone
    (Reed)

    DT/Big End (3/4/5-Tech)
    Reed
    Collier
    Green
    Hyder
    Lattimore

    LEO/SAM (7/9-Tech)
    Mayowa
    Robinson
    Taylor
    (Green)

    I'm guessing we'll see another Leo/SAM, possibly two, before the season starts.


    This doesnt make sense. At times the use 3 down lineman with kj down at the line of scrimmage. That is only to allow Bobby and brooks on the field at the same time with 5 dbs. However, they mostly roll with four down lineman.


    This isn't true - they went with heavy Bear fronts (which is not new for the Seahawks, it was just used a lot more last season) which is more or less a 5-2 with the SS also in the box. I couldn't find the percentage that this front was used but it was a lot.

    https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/news/film-breakdown-understanding-basics-of-seahawks-bear-front

    Image

    While there's no question the addition of defensive end Carlos Dunlap and improving chemistry in the defensive backfield have been catalysts for the rapid turnaround. after being the scapegoat during Seattle's first half struggles, defensive coordinator Ken Norton Jr. also deserves praise for schematic adaptations that have played a role in the much improved play on that side of the ball.

    Most notably, the Seahawks have been deploying "bear" fronts featuring three defensive tackles, two edge rushers, and two off-ball linebackers with increasing frequency. When asked about the adjustment, coach Pete Carroll credited Norton for getting the most out of the team's personnel defensively, including safety Jamal Adams and linebacker Jordyn Brooks.

    "You have seen us adapt to our personnel and we have -we have enough background that we can do a lot of things," Carroll elaborated. "We have been through so much over the years and I think Kenny [Norton] is exhibiting that to you [through] the use of our talent. And Jamal's part of it, Jordyn [Brooks] coming to us as well is part of it. And absolutely it fits, like we have said to you, about Carlos, his work as a nine technique which puts him outside edge on, to the field in our defense, puts him exactly where he can be really most effective."

    How does the "bear" front work? Up front, the Seahawks have a nose tackle in 0-tech alignment head up across from the center. Two other defensive tackles line up in 3-tech or sometimes 4i-alignment either shading the B-gap or the inside shoulder of the opposing tackle. On the outside, two defensive ends/hybrid linebackers are split out wide in 9-alignment and can either rush the quarterback or drop into coverage.

    This season, Poona Ford has primarily played the nose tackle role, while Jarran Reed, L.J. Collier, and Rasheem Green have been seeing most of the snaps at the 3-tech spots and Dunlap or Benson Mayowa has been wide at one of the end spots. K.J. Wright, playing the SAM linebacker role, has normally been at the other wide-9 position off edge.



    Techniques are not the predecessor for a formarion. I dont care where they line up in technique on the line. Look at the picture you inserted in your post has four dlineman and three backers. That is a 43 defense with a guy standing up which is reed or collier #91. Guranteed collier wont drop to zone. Formations are predetermined by personnel. You can call it what ever you want as long as your players understand. We as spectators think how they call it is correct, but a bear nickel is far different from a traditional bear. Also look in that picture. 3 down line men and both wags and brooks are off the ball backers. I believe I said that above. Somewhere missing in that picture is Adam's roaming around the line of scrimmage. Technically it is a 34 defense in nickel by look, although It is a 43 with four lineman.
    jamescasey1124
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  • renofox wrote:player / sacks / seasons / avg
    Hyder - 18.5 / 5 / 3.7
    Mayowa - 26 / 8 / 3.2
    Green - 7 / 3 / 2.3
    Collier - 3 / 2 / 1.5
    Robinson - 4 / 1 / 4
    Taylor - 0 / 0 / 0

    Total 58.5 / 19 / 3.1

    for comparison/reference: Dunlap 87.5 / 11 / 8

    No disrespect intended to any of the players, but this has to be the saddest depth chart in the NFL for the DE position.

    I'm sure PCJS will sign some actual starting quality DEs this year, just like they have the last couple years.....

    edit: added Dunlap for comparison to an actual starting level DE. Not elite, just starter material.

    Wow, way to misrepresent with statistics!

    Hyder had 8.5 sacks and 34 QB pressures last year, but including the years when he was used sparingly you can make it look like he only gets 3.7 per season. Dunlap had 6 sacks last year, but it looks like he's an 8-sack guy.

    Why did you present the stats so as to create a negative narrative?
    KiwiHawk
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  • I feel SO much better about their chances to pressure the QB this year than going into last year's.

    This will help the CBs out, get us through 2021 basically without draft picks then build from ground up starting 2022

    Excited
    mikeak
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  • KiwiHawk wrote:
    renofox wrote:player / sacks / seasons / avg
    Hyder - 18.5 / 5 / 3.7
    Mayowa - 26 / 8 / 3.2
    Green - 7 / 3 / 2.3
    Collier - 3 / 2 / 1.5
    Robinson - 4 / 1 / 4
    Taylor - 0 / 0 / 0

    Total 58.5 / 19 / 3.1

    for comparison/reference: Dunlap 87.5 / 11 / 8

    No disrespect intended to any of the players, but this has to be the saddest depth chart in the NFL for the DE position.

    I'm sure PCJS will sign some actual starting quality DEs this year, just like they have the last couple years.....

    edit: added Dunlap for comparison to an actual starting level DE. Not elite, just starter material.

    Wow, way to misrepresent with statistics!

    Hyder had 8.5 sacks and 34 QB pressures last year, but including the years when he was used sparingly you can make it look like he only gets 3.7 per season. Dunlap had 6 sacks last year, but it looks like he's an 8-sack guy.

    Why did you present the stats so as to create a negative narrative?


    Because that's what pessimists do.
    Maulbert
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  • A-Dog wrote:
    jamescasey1124 wrote:
    A-Dog wrote:Hawks have three positions on the D-Line now:

    NT (0/1-Tech)
    Ford
    Mone
    (Reed)

    DT/Big End (3/4/5-Tech)
    Reed
    Collier
    Green
    Hyder
    Lattimore

    LEO/SAM (7/9-Tech)
    Mayowa
    Robinson
    Taylor
    (Green)

    I'm guessing we'll see another Leo/SAM, possibly two, before the season starts.


    This doesnt make sense. At times the use 3 down lineman with kj down at the line of scrimmage. That is only to allow Bobby and brooks on the field at the same time with 5 dbs. However, they mostly roll with four down lineman.


    This isn't true - they went with heavy Bear fronts (which is not new for the Seahawks, it was just used a lot more last season) which is more or less a 5-2 with the SS also in the box. I couldn't find the percentage that this front was used but it was a lot.

    https://www.si.com/nfl/seahawks/news/film-breakdown-understanding-basics-of-seahawks-bear-front

    Image

    While there's no question the addition of defensive end Carlos Dunlap and improving chemistry in the defensive backfield have been catalysts for the rapid turnaround. after being the scapegoat during Seattle's first half struggles, defensive coordinator Ken Norton Jr. also deserves praise for schematic adaptations that have played a role in the much improved play on that side of the ball.

    Most notably, the Seahawks have been deploying "bear" fronts featuring three defensive tackles, two edge rushers, and two off-ball linebackers with increasing frequency. When asked about the adjustment, coach Pete Carroll credited Norton for getting the most out of the team's personnel defensively, including safety Jamal Adams and linebacker Jordyn Brooks.

    "You have seen us adapt to our personnel and we have -we have enough background that we can do a lot of things," Carroll elaborated. "We have been through so much over the years and I think Kenny [Norton] is exhibiting that to you [through] the use of our talent. And Jamal's part of it, Jordyn [Brooks] coming to us as well is part of it. And absolutely it fits, like we have said to you, about Carlos, his work as a nine technique which puts him outside edge on, to the field in our defense, puts him exactly where he can be really most effective."

    How does the "bear" front work? Up front, the Seahawks have a nose tackle in 0-tech alignment head up across from the center. Two other defensive tackles line up in 3-tech or sometimes 4i-alignment either shading the B-gap or the inside shoulder of the opposing tackle. On the outside, two defensive ends/hybrid linebackers are split out wide in 9-alignment and can either rush the quarterback or drop into coverage.

    This season, Poona Ford has primarily played the nose tackle role, while Jarran Reed, L.J. Collier, and Rasheem Green have been seeing most of the snaps at the 3-tech spots and Dunlap or Benson Mayowa has been wide at one of the end spots. K.J. Wright, playing the SAM linebacker role, has normally been at the other wide-9 position off edge.


    I think your positional breakout is useful with Al Woods now replacing Jarren Reed at 0 technique and Poona Ford also able to provide snaps at 1 & 3 technique. Retrieving and posting that film study on the Bear presentation was also timely. Given the personnel they are putting together, it's easy to anticipate that we will see more of what they have committed to build on. The only real front 7 question is KJ Wright length and/or replacement. A number of those lineman names have the requisite quickness to drop into shallow coverage. That's a must for them to continue to mix in zone blitz. All in all, looking promising.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :2thumbs:
    Jville
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  • Maulbert wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    renofox wrote:player / sacks / seasons / avg
    Hyder - 18.5 / 5 / 3.7
    Mayowa - 26 / 8 / 3.2
    Green - 7 / 3 / 2.3
    Collier - 3 / 2 / 1.5
    Robinson - 4 / 1 / 4
    Taylor - 0 / 0 / 0

    Total 58.5 / 19 / 3.1

    for comparison/reference: Dunlap 87.5 / 11 / 8

    No disrespect intended to any of the players, but this has to be the saddest depth chart in the NFL for the DE position.

    I'm sure PCJS will sign some actual starting quality DEs this year, just like they have the last couple years.....

    edit: added Dunlap for comparison to an actual starting level DE. Not elite, just starter material.

    Wow, way to misrepresent with statistics!

    Hyder had 8.5 sacks and 34 QB pressures last year, but including the years when he was used sparingly you can make it look like he only gets 3.7 per season. Dunlap had 6 sacks last year, but it looks like he's an 8-sack guy.

    Why did you present the stats so as to create a negative narrative?


    Because that's what pessimists do.


    It's sad that facts contrary to the narrative hurt your feelings. I am now more optimistic since PCJS have actually added a starting level (i.e.; player who has shown consistent production) DE in Dunlap.

    For those who believe that the Seahawks have seriously improved the DL - we have basically the same players as last year +Hyder -Reed. Assuming that Taylor, Robinson, et al are going to dramatically increase their productivity is just that - an assumption. I can hope they end up being a good DL, but I'd be an idiot to predict it or count on it.
    renofox
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  • renofox wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:
    renofox wrote:player / sacks / seasons / avg
    Hyder - 18.5 / 5 / 3.7
    Mayowa - 26 / 8 / 3.2
    Green - 7 / 3 / 2.3
    Collier - 3 / 2 / 1.5
    Robinson - 4 / 1 / 4
    Taylor - 0 / 0 / 0

    Total 58.5 / 19 / 3.1

    for comparison/reference: Dunlap 87.5 / 11 / 8

    No disrespect intended to any of the players, but this has to be the saddest depth chart in the NFL for the DE position.

    I'm sure PCJS will sign some actual starting quality DEs this year, just like they have the last couple years.....

    edit: added Dunlap for comparison to an actual starting level DE. Not elite, just starter material.

    Wow, way to misrepresent with statistics!

    Hyder had 8.5 sacks and 34 QB pressures last year, but including the years when he was used sparingly you can make it look like he only gets 3.7 per season. Dunlap had 6 sacks last year, but it looks like he's an 8-sack guy.

    Why did you present the stats so as to create a negative narrative?


    Because that's what pessimists do.


    It's sad that facts contrary to the narrative hurt your feelings. I am now more optimistic since PCJS have actually added a starting level (i.e.; player who has shown consistent production) DE in Dunlap.

    For those who believe that the Seahawks have seriously improved the DL - we have basically the same players as last year +Hyder -Reed. Assuming that Taylor, Robinson, et al are going to dramatically increase their productivity is just that - an assumption. I can hope they end up being a good DL, but I'd be an idiot to predict it or count on it.


    I'm not saying they were vastly improved, but your framing of the statistics was disingenuous, at best. Hyder has only played over 41% of his teams defensive snaps twice in his career: 64% in 2016 and 70% in 2020. Over 2/3 of his career snaps were from those seasons, and 16.5 of his 18.5 career sacks, as well. If a player doesn't see the field, he can't perform. He only averages 3.7 a year because he barely saw the field for 3 of them.

    I'm sorry you can't present facts without a heaping dose of bias.
    Maulbert
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  • Maulbert wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:
    KiwiHawk wrote:Wow, way to misrepresent with statistics!

    Hyder had 8.5 sacks and 34 QB pressures last year, but including the years when he was used sparingly you can make it look like he only gets 3.7 per season. Dunlap had 6 sacks last year, but it looks like he's an 8-sack guy.

    Why did you present the stats so as to create a negative narrative?


    Because that's what pessimists do.


    It's sad that facts contrary to the narrative hurt your feelings. I am now more optimistic since PCJS have actually added a starting level (i.e.; player who has shown consistent production) DE in Dunlap.

    For those who believe that the Seahawks have seriously improved the DL - we have basically the same players as last year +Hyder -Reed. Assuming that Taylor, Robinson, et al are going to dramatically increase their productivity is just that - an assumption. I can hope they end up being a good DL, but I'd be an idiot to predict it or count on it.


    I'm not saying they were vastly improved, but your framing of the statistics was disingenuous, at best. Hyder has only played over 41% of his teams defensive snaps twice in his career: 64% in 2016 and 70% in 2020. Over 2/3 of his career snaps were from those seasons, and 16.5 of his 18.5 career sacks, as well. If a player doesn't see the field, he can't perform. He only averages 3.7 a year because he barely saw the field for 3 of them.

    I'm sorry you can't present facts without a heaping dose of bias.


    So I don’t know much about this guy so either he hasn’t got as many snaps as a starter because he has been injured a lot or because his coaches didn’t think he was as good as the players in front of him. Not sure which.
    JayhawkMike
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  • JayhawkMike wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:
    renofox wrote:
    Maulbert wrote:
    Because that's what pessimists do.


    It's sad that facts contrary to the narrative hurt your feelings. I am now more optimistic since PCJS have actually added a starting level (i.e.; player who has shown consistent production) DE in Dunlap.

    For those who believe that the Seahawks have seriously improved the DL - we have basically the same players as last year +Hyder -Reed. Assuming that Taylor, Robinson, et al are going to dramatically increase their productivity is just that - an assumption. I can hope they end up being a good DL, but I'd be an idiot to predict it or count on it.


    I'm not saying they were vastly improved, but your framing of the statistics was disingenuous, at best. Hyder has only played over 41% of his teams defensive snaps twice in his career: 64% in 2016 and 70% in 2020. Over 2/3 of his career snaps were from those seasons, and 16.5 of his 18.5 career sacks, as well. If a player doesn't see the field, he can't perform. He only averages 3.7 a year because he barely saw the field for 3 of them.

    I'm sorry you can't present facts without a heaping dose of bias.


    So I don’t know much about this guy so either he hasn’t got as many snaps as a starter because he has been injured a lot or because his coaches didn’t think he was as good as the players in front of him. Not sure which.


    He tore his ACL in 2017, but as far as coaches opinions, he couldn't see the field in Detroit, Dallas, and with the Jets. Those coaches opinions aren't ones I care about. They're all dysfunctional organizations.
    Maulbert
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